Character Archeclasses and Subclasses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Archeclasses and Subclasses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trydan
05-22-04, 05:02 PM Here is an idea that I saw over on the DMG Board. It is based on a Neat Concept by Ebb_Lurecia (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3497154#post3477527) (please click on the link to see Ebb_Lurecia's post). While that was for a different topic (namely restricting the use of Prestige Classes), I thought that it was excellent in a more general context, and thought I'd drag it across to here:

Originally posted by Ebb_Lurecia :
There are two elements to every class: the Archeclass (Expert, Spellcaster, Warrior), and the Subclass (Arcane, Divine, General, Nature). Each base class is based upon the combination of an Archeclass and a Subclass. | Expert | Spellcaster | Warrior
-------------------------------------------
Arcane | Bard | Sorcerer | Warlock
Divine | Monk | Cleric | Paladin
General | Rogue | Wizard | Fighter
Nature | Ranger | Druid | BarbarianMulticlassing is restricted to Archeclass and Subclass. For instance, a Fighter can take any Warrior Archeclass (Warlock, Paladin, Barbarian), or any General Subclass (Rogue, Wizard). However, they cannot multiclassing outside of these boundaries. No Fighter/Bards, for instance.

The Warlock in the chart is a new class I've added to my setting...nothing special.

Anyways, the same idea could be applied to prestige classes, restricting the PrC along the same lines. For instance, the Arcane Archer would require you to have an Arcane Archeclass element. The Blackguard might require a Divine Subclass element.

While I'd probably call it "Archetype", rather than "Archeclass" (my goodness, that's tricky to say), and possibly "Wild" instead of "Nature", I think the idea is excellent. Of course, that "Warlock" class could be a "Hexblade" or something. Or perhaps a secret type of character (like a prestige class, or a secret force - such as the "Blades" in computer game Morrowind).

While in the above context, the idea was good mostly for controlling classes and class changes, I thought it could be useful for character development too. For example, should you be multiclassing from Barbarian to Cleric, look at the Archeclass and Subclass that you would need to traverse. Namely, either "Barbarian to Paladin to Cleric", or "Barbarian to Druid to Cleric". (Don't worry about the intermediate ones, the rows/columns are not in any order, so you don't go Barbarian to Fighter to Paladin to Cleric).

So, what does this mean.

Well, firstly, note that you do not need to take those intermediate classes, but that you can use them as a guide to explain why you've made that change. In the Barbarian case, the Paladin path, implies that a cause has been found, that leads the character to piety; it is a more agressive transition. The Druid path, would be a calming, meditative transition, but still maintaining the links to the wild-wrath in case of dire need.

No, don't try and acquire the intermediate traits, but use them as a guide to defining the change in the characters attitude.

Given the number of people that ask on this board "How do I role-play a <bizarre-multiclass-combination>", so to speak, this little insight might prove helpful in plotting a path between the two extremes.
Aluroon
05-22-04, 05:38 PM This is, IMO a great idea, because

A. It resticts Min/Maxers
B. Shows gradual change
C. Is simple to understand

However there are a few flaws, namily with mechanics, which although not important in a roleplaying aspect can get trickly to play.

A. What if someone like a fighter, wants to pick up a few levels of sorcerer? Maybe the fighter had untaped power that he discovered in a recent advanture, without the warlock class avalliable (most campains dont use others homebrew after all, he might be required to pick up wizard levels, somethng completely oposite of where he is going
B. There can be some trickly problums with abillity scores during the middle class
C. It lacks a true warior arcana class, although I think that the hexblade could fix this problum, taking a hint from your idea.

All in all, I think this is a good idea though and will be refering this post to my dm.

Thanks for bringing it up, as I would have therewise never have seen this.

Aluroon
Trydan
05-23-04, 10:07 AM Originally posted by Aluroon
A. What if someone like a fighter, wants to pick up a few levels of sorcerer? Maybe the fighter had untaped power that he discovered in a recent advanture, without the warlock class avalliable (most campains dont use others homebrew after all, he might be required to pick up wizard levels, somethng completely oposite of where he is going
I don't think that it should be necessary to actually take the intervening class. (Obviously I didn't make this sufficiently clear, sorry!) As you say, it would cause all sorts of complications. What I was thinking was that it would be a sort of guide to explain the RP terms between the classes.

To continue your example, imagine a 4th level fighter wants to pick up a level of sorcerer. In role-playing terms, the character doesn't suddenly start casting spells.

One way for this to happen, is that he consciously realises that he wishes to pursue the idea, untapping his hidden potential. So, he seeks out someone learned in the arcane arts, and begins to study/practise/etc., unlocking his inner powers. This is akin to following the wizard path - i.e. via study - without actually taking that wizard-level as such.

Alternatively, as he fights, the character notices strange effects connected with his fighting style, or weapon, or the use of it. He doesn't understand it at first, but slowly realises its worth and starts exploting it. He starts incorporating more and more arcane power into his battles, before eventually being able to channel the power directly - that is, he has become able to act as a sorcerer, without having a "weapon focus" or "combat situation". In this case, he has traversed the warlock/hexblade path but without actually taking a level in that class at all.

As you can see, in both cases the Ftr.4 becomes a Ftr.4/Sor.1, but the rationale behind it is guided by transition, rather than a single experience point clocking over the total from 9.999 to 10.000 experience points. Obviously, ever game/campaign is different, but I think that this way-of-thinking (rather than a hard-and-fast rule) would help in a lot of cases.
Aluroon
05-23-04, 11:00 AM Well, that makes it much more workable, thanks for clarifying it for me. Once again I thank you for bringing this idea to my attention, I would not have normally ever seen it as I only haunt this board and the homebrew boards.

Thanks

Aluroon
Trydan
06-02-04, 06:00 PM Just out of interest. Apart from "Hexblade", does anyone know of any prestige classes (or any other sort of class for that matter), that would fit the "Warlock" slot (namely, that of "Arcane Warrior")?

If you do, please post (and include a reference to where I could find it - either a URL to the posting, or the name of the source book).

Thanks.
Rudysseus
06-04-04, 11:24 PM What about the Bladesinger or Spellsword from the Complete Warrior book? Both are prestige classes but mix the two genres. or the Eldritch Knight from the DM's guide? There an older book by Monte Cook called Arcana Unearthed (NOT the new Unearthed Arcana book) which describes a class called a Mage Blade. if you cannot find anyone who can give you info on this class, please let me know and I can perhaps email or somehow give you the entire class description.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trydan 05-22-04, 05:02 PM	Here is an idea that I saw over on the DMG Board. It is based on a Neat Concept by Ebb_Lurecia (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3497154#post3477527) (please click on the link to see Ebb_Lurecia's post). While that was for a different topic (namely restricting the use of Prestige Classes), I thought that it was excellent in a more general context, and thought I'd drag it across to here: Originally posted by Ebb_Lurecia : There are two elements to every class: the Archeclass (Expert, Spellcaster, Warrior), and the Subclass (Arcane, Divine, General, Nature). Each base class is based upon the combination of an Archeclass and a Subclass. \| Expert \| Spellcaster \| Warrior ------------------------------------------- Arcane \| Bard \| Sorcerer \| Warlock Divine \| Monk \| Cleric \| Paladin General \| Rogue \| Wizard \| Fighter Nature \| Ranger \| Druid \| BarbarianMulticlassing is restricted to Archeclass and Subclass. For instance, a Fighter can take any Warrior Archeclass (Warlock, Paladin, Barbarian), or any General Subclass (Rogue, Wizard). However, they cannot multiclassing outside of these boundaries. No Fighter/Bards, for instance. The Warlock in the chart is a new class I've added to my setting...nothing special. Anyways, the same idea could be applied to prestige classes, restricting the PrC along the same lines. For instance, the Arcane Archer would require you to have an Arcane Archeclass element. The Blackguard might require a Divine Subclass element. While I'd probably call it "Archetype", rather than "Archeclass" (my goodness, that's tricky to say), and possibly "Wild" instead of "Nature", I think the idea is excellent. Of course, that "Warlock" class could be a "Hexblade" or something. Or perhaps a secret type of character (like a prestige class, or a secret force - such as the "Blades" in computer game Morrowind). While in the above context, the idea was good mostly for controlling classes and class changes, I thought it could be useful for character development too. For example, should you be multiclassing from Barbarian to Cleric, look at the Archeclass and Subclass that you would need to traverse. Namely, either "Barbarian to Paladin to Cleric", or "Barbarian to Druid to Cleric". (Don't worry about the intermediate ones, the rows/columns are not in any order, so you don't go Barbarian to Fighter to Paladin to Cleric). So, what does this mean. Well, firstly, note that you do not need to take those intermediate classes, but that you can use them as a guide to explain why you've made that change. In the Barbarian case, the Paladin path, implies that a cause has been found, that leads the character to piety; it is a more agressive transition. The Druid path, would be a calming, meditative transition, but still maintaining the links to the wild-wrath in case of dire need. No, don't try and acquire the intermediate traits, but use them as a guide to defining the change in the characters attitude. Given the number of people that ask on this board "How do I role-play a <bizarre-multiclass-combination>", so to speak, this little insight might prove helpful in plotting a path between the two extremes.
Aluroon 05-22-04, 05:38 PM	This is, IMO a great idea, because A. It resticts Min/Maxers B. Shows gradual change C. Is simple to understand However there are a few flaws, namily with mechanics, which although not important in a roleplaying aspect can get trickly to play. A. What if someone like a fighter, wants to pick up a few levels of sorcerer? Maybe the fighter had untaped power that he discovered in a recent advanture, without the warlock class avalliable (most campains dont use others homebrew after all, he might be required to pick up wizard levels, somethng completely oposite of where he is going B. There can be some trickly problums with abillity scores during the middle class C. It lacks a true warior arcana class, although I think that the hexblade could fix this problum, taking a hint from your idea. All in all, I think this is a good idea though and will be refering this post to my dm. Thanks for bringing it up, as I would have therewise never have seen this. Aluroon
Trydan 05-23-04, 10:07 AM	Originally posted by Aluroon A. What if someone like a fighter, wants to pick up a few levels of sorcerer? Maybe the fighter had untaped power that he discovered in a recent advanture, without the warlock class avalliable (most campains dont use others homebrew after all, he might be required to pick up wizard levels, somethng completely oposite of where he is going I don't think that it should be necessary to actually take the intervening class. (Obviously I didn't make this sufficiently clear, sorry!) As you say, it would cause all sorts of complications. What I was thinking was that it would be a sort of guide to explain the RP terms between the classes. To continue your example, imagine a 4th level fighter wants to pick up a level of sorcerer. In role-playing terms, the character doesn't suddenly start casting spells. One way for this to happen, is that he consciously realises that he wishes to pursue the idea, untapping his hidden potential. So, he seeks out someone learned in the arcane arts, and begins to study/practise/etc., unlocking his inner powers. This is akin to following the wizard path - i.e. via study - without actually taking that wizard-level as such. Alternatively, as he fights, the character notices strange effects connected with his fighting style, or weapon, or the use of it. He doesn't understand it at first, but slowly realises its worth and starts exploting it. He starts incorporating more and more arcane power into his battles, before eventually being able to channel the power directly - that is, he has become able to act as a sorcerer, without having a "weapon focus" or "combat situation". In this case, he has traversed the warlock/hexblade path but without actually taking a level in that class at all. As you can see, in both cases the Ftr.4 becomes a Ftr.4/Sor.1, but the rationale behind it is guided by transition, rather than a single experience point clocking over the total from 9.999 to 10.000 experience points. Obviously, ever game/campaign is different, but I think that this way-of-thinking (rather than a hard-and-fast rule) would help in a lot of cases.
Aluroon 05-23-04, 11:00 AM	Well, that makes it much more workable, thanks for clarifying it for me. Once again I thank you for bringing this idea to my attention, I would not have normally ever seen it as I only haunt this board and the homebrew boards. Thanks Aluroon
Trydan 06-02-04, 06:00 PM	Just out of interest. Apart from "Hexblade", does anyone know of any prestige classes (or any other sort of class for that matter), that would fit the "Warlock" slot (namely, that of "Arcane Warrior")? If you do, please post (and include a reference to where I could find it - either a URL to the posting, or the name of the source book). Thanks.
Rudysseus 06-04-04, 11:24 PM	What about the Bladesinger or Spellsword from the Complete Warrior book? Both are prestige classes but mix the two genres. or the Eldritch Knight from the DM's guide? There an older book by Monte Cook called Arcana Unearthed (NOT the new Unearthed Arcana book) which describes a class called a Mage Blade. if you cannot find anyone who can give you info on this class, please let me know and I can perhaps email or somehow give you the entire class description.