Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zach-a-tack 01-03-06, 06:50 PM	Is it possable to have an evil cleric who worships a good god. I mean , like a elf who worships the elven god , but decides its ok to comit evil acts aainst his emenys , like burning them alive , eatig their hearts , stealing their wives , enslaving them , yet he could do it for his good god. In game terms is it even possable do you have to be a diey's aligenment , if you do , what if we throw away that rule and debate weather their can be a evil cleric who worships a good god. Islam terrorists kill non islams , but their Koran , dosn't say thats rigth , it says its wrong. their god isn't really evil , their god is said to be nice , kind , just , lawful , mercieful. Their evil , and they worship a good like god. this is just an idea , I'm dming a game where theirs crazed cleric of a good god ( not sure what god ) and they do some evil stuf that is inside the diety's profilio , ( Like Elves enslaving orcs , and beating them , and torturing them ) What alignment are they.
Harrow Blade 01-03-06, 08:02 PM	No, no and no. It is not possible for the cleric of a good god to be commiting evil acts and still remain a cleric of that god. A clerics alignment should be within one step of the deity. If a cleric strays from his deity then more often than not the god will take away the magic until penance has been performed. Also the sort of acts you describe are of a truly evil alignment, enemies or not. If your player wants to play an evil cleric then do so. Don't let them try to cover it up with a good god. As to the elves who enslave orcs etc there is a group that already do that they are called Drow and are Evil! The acts commited by the player determin the alignment. there are fanatics who justify thier acts by saying it is the work of their god or church but it is really just a cover as they do not truly follow the teachings of said deity.
Nani? 01-03-06, 10:42 PM	By RAW, no, except, I think in Eberon. From a RP perspective and RL perspective, I could justify it in game. I'd also leave it an open question about ehere he's getting his spells. All the Best, Nani?
Zach-a-tack 01-04-06, 07:26 PM	this is just an idea , i migth not even use it. I just want your opinions , thanks for your opinions I do think it's possable because people do those evil acts for god like gods all the time on earth. The cursades Spanish inquision Islam terrorists do they ring any bells theres many more too if any one can think of any please tell me. Drows don't hate orcs , they enslave everyone. Is it possable for a good cleric to do things that are good and worship an evil god? Do good things for the god. This is less likely then the first question , but does anyone have any ideas that could cause something like that to happen thaxs for the feedback. :)
Harrow Blade 01-04-06, 09:22 PM	yes people do bad things in the name of good but that does not make them, the individual, good. In a FR campaign you may have Cyric, god of lies, provide the cleric with spells while leaving him under the delusion of working for his good god. The roleplaying idea is an interesting one and I think I might have gone on a bit of a tangent previously with out giving you options so I hope this helps. If the character is not entirely stable they may do evil things mistakenly thinking it is for the good of a cause.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-05-06, 07:35 AM	The real-world examples you bring up are irrelevant. Doing something in the name of a god is not the same as being a cleric of that god. To be a cleric of a certain god (and thereby gain spells and powers from that god), not only must you have faith in that god, you must live your life and conduct your actions in a way pleasing to that god, and in line with that god's teachings. None of those real-world examples are displaying any clerical class features, are they? Anyone can say they're commiting atrocities in the name of a good god, and the crazy ones might even believe that's true - but they will never receive cleric class features from that good god. Hmmm... a god of deceit giving spells to a self-deluded individual who thinks he's a cleric of another god, in order to further the god of deceit's ends... I like that, Harrow.
Grizzled Gryphon 01-05-06, 10:31 AM	Real quick, you should probably know that Muslims follow the same god as Christians. They don' believe the bible, though. They have their own book, the Koran, written by Muhhamed. But, as to your question about good clerics doing bad things, there is offical info regarding just that. In the Weapons of Legacy book, there is a mace for a sect of the church of Pelor. They are followers of Pelor in everyway, except they think arcane magic is evil. So, regardless of the fact that Wizard Joe is Lawfulo good, they kill him. Even with this kind of evil act, they still get spells from Pelor, and they retain their good alignments. Here is another example. An evil god doing good things. Zarus, the Father of Man, according to the Races of Destiny book, is Lawful Evil. However, if your human, they will heal you and help you just as much as the followers of Pelor. As far as humanity goes, they are just as good and selfless as Pelor's clergy. In fact, they will help non-humans, as long as that individual understands that humanity is better than his race. Just some things to ponder.
Morka 01-05-06, 11:25 AM	Those real life examples are difficult to evaluate. First of all, those who kill in the name of a good god are not clerics, they are followers. Anyone can worship any god, an evil wizard can worship the NG Mystra, a CN rogue can worship St-Cuthbert if he has problems with an assassin who escape justice, a LE warrior can worship Kord or Tempus. I see Christianism as a religion very broad in alignment. When you read the Old Testament (that is common with the Coran), you can see that God is LN, with Moses and the 10 Commandments. When you read the New Testament, God suddenly shift to NG, with Jesus saying "God is Love". But real life is not D&D. If you act against your alignment, God won't remove you your spellcasting abilities, you don't have any. If you commit an evil act against God, He will not send an avatar to kick your butt; however, you can belive you will have an harder time to enter paradise when you'll die. In real life, religion is a combinaison of believes and code of conduct, and even that is not set in stone (in fact it was, but Moses broke them). That's why we have the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists and any other kind of Protestants and/or Holy Orders. That's why at some time there was the Crusades and the Inquisition, and at some other time there was Mother Teresa. In D&D, it's both clearer and more complicated. It's clearer because a god's portfolio and alignment is knew to all, and his clerics each day can cast spells based on their faith; it's even possible for this god to personnally intervene in mortals schemes by sending an avatar. It's more complicated because there is many gods, sometimes with interrest in the same portfolios but with different alignment (example: both Heironeous and Hextor have the War portfolio, but one is good and one is evil). So in the end, can you be evil and worship Pelor? Of course. Who is the warrior who would spit on a priest who can heal him after the battle? Can you be a cleric of Pelor and commit an evil act? Yes, perhaps, but not too often. Can you be an evil cleric of Pelor? No way! Pelor would remove you all your powers.
RogerWilco 01-05-06, 03:35 PM	Worshipping a god of opposed alignment: yes Keeping granted powers as a cleric: no
Zach-a-tack 01-05-06, 04:22 PM	Real quick, you should probably know that Muslims follow the same god as Christians. They don' believe the bible, though. They have their own book, the Koran, written by Muhhamed. Muslims do believe in the bible they just dont believe jesus is the son of god. They think hes a prophet. They believe Muhhamed is the newest prophet and his book is the rigth book. Anything in the Qu'ron that conduredics the bible is rigth. Grizzled Gryphon has some very interesting excamples that show my point very well. If anyone has a reply to them i would like to hear it.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-05-06, 04:37 PM	Grizzled Gryphon has some very interesting excamples that show my point very well. If anyone has a reply to them i would like to hear it. GG is right. However, a single or even an occasional evil act, or a specific exception to normal conduct, does not turn a good person evil, nor does a single or occasional good act or specific exception turn an evil person good. Simply because you can get away with something wicked every now and then and be a cleric of a good god, does not mean you can be a consistently evil raving psychopath (what your original post seems to indicate) and be a cleric of a good god. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it really seems like you came here just to be agreed with, rather than to get info. If you already believe you have the answer, and refuse to be redirected, why bother asking?
Fox Lee 01-05-06, 09:40 PM	So in the end, can you be evil and worship Pelor? Of course. Who is the warrior who would spit on a priest who can heal him after the battle? Can you be a cleric of Pelor and commit an evil act? Yes, perhaps, but not too often. Can you be an evil cleric of Pelor? No way! Pelor would remove you all your powers. Quoted because it's the absolute correct answer to the original question. If you don't like it, OP, look into house rules or play a different game, because the rules are very explicit about this.
Zach-a-tack 01-06-06, 04:05 PM	.Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it really seems like you came here just to be agreed with, rather than to get info. If you already believe you have the answer, and refuse to be redirected, why bother asking? Your wrong and rigth. I don't want info , but i don't want to be agreed with. I just want to see what other people think about an idea that i wasn't sure is rigth or wrong. I'm only stating one agurgement because no one is agreeing with me. I'm trying to see what people say to my agruements. I'm don't think i'll use evil clerics of a good god , but i migth. I just want your ideas about. I know the rules are against it but why are they against if the rules didnt say u couldnt do it the idea evil clerics of a good god could be used because in a real live world it could happen.
Fox Lee 01-06-06, 06:18 PM	You're wrong. First of all, arguying that this could happen in the real world is totally a fallacy, since there's no such bloody thing as clerics in the D&D sense 9_9; But hey, let's set that aside... even in the real world, twisting the tenets of your faith into something evil means you don't truly believe in that faith any more, because you're doing things that go against it. Maybe you believe in that particular deity or cosmology or whatever, but believing and obeying are two very different things. You simply can't define a pre-existing faith with your actions like that, not when there is a real deity with real power in the centre of it. You can follow the faith or you can go against it - a God isn't going to stand for you p*ssing all over their religion while claiming to follow it! Surely you can understand why Gods refuse to grant cleric powers to individuals who don't follow their cause? It would be a deity stabbing his/her/itself in the foot. The rules are against it because if the Gods willingly grant powers to individuals who are working against them, the Gods are idiots. An evil God who granted cleric powers to good individuals in order to screw with them later on? That could be fun. An evil God who secretly granted cleric powers to individuals who thought they were following a different (good) deity, when they were actually furthering the cause of evil? Cool. Misguided individuals doing evil things in the name of a good god? Classic plot device, classic history. A Good god handing out power to individuals who blatantly go against its faith/dogma/commands just because they claim to follow it? That's a "special ed" god, dude. Evil followers of good gods = fine. Evil clerics of good gods = gods are morons.
Arilou_skiff 01-06-06, 06:31 PM	it is certainly possible (even by the rules in the FR; though it is something of a special case: Mystra is considered both LN and NG for purposes of clerical alignments, hence she can have LE clerics while her actual alignment is NG) There are also campaign settings (like Zakhara eg.) where the gods are never given alignments. *as a general rule* it's not possible, but these are *gods* after all. There may be all sorts of reasons for the God to continue granting spells to an evil worshipper, including. A) Hoping to gently nudge the follower onto the proper path B) being more concerned with portfolio than alignment C) Having some kind of use (possibly the God has foreseen something important the cleric will do, and backs him/her up despite his/her problems)
Zach-a-tack 01-07-06, 04:24 PM	I just noticed that your all basing on the fact that gods are real in dnd. Where does it say that. Not even all clerics worship a god. That means that there is another way to get divine spells. So for all we know dnd gods migth not be real in dnd. Gods arent said to be real. in the dm guild u have to decide when u make yr world weather gods r real
Grizzled Gryphon 01-08-06, 09:37 AM	The gods aren't real? Where did you get that? As far as DnD is consecrned, the Gods are most definately real. As for those clerics that follow an ideal, they still get there power from the gods, they just get them from a collection of gods. While it doesn't specifically say that the gods do exist, thats only becuase it is considered a given. There is no need to say the gods are 'real', as everyone that plays DnD knows they are. And thus, it is implied so. Nowhere in any of the books is it even implied they might not be.
Arilou_skiff 01-08-06, 01:43 PM	The Athar would certainly disagree :p (with the idea that the Gods are Gods at any rate)
Rolof 01-11-06, 07:27 PM	Maybe this will help; there is a feat somewhere, sorry but I don't remember the name of it, that keeps you from being discovered by the detect evil spell or ability. It is basically designed for blackguards and other divine-related classes who have fallen from grace. I can't quote it word for word, but I do remember that is says specifically "cannot worship an evil deity and take this feat" and also says "you are still evil" just hiding it from everyone-including themself. So in my opinion what all that means is, that the character IS evil, STILL worships the good god, and THINKS they are still good-kind of a Machiavellian ends-justifies-the-means attitude. Whether the character would still receive spells or not...tough call, because apparently all abilities associated with being a worshipper of that god should be lost, yet how can someone not realize they have indeed fallen if they lose all their relevant abilities? Unless, as other have suggested, evil deities grant them their spells so as to further corrupt and mislead them.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-11-06, 10:02 PM	Rolof: in many cases a morally neutral deity (lawful neutral, true neutral, chaotic neutral) will accept either good or evil clerics as long as they match on the ethical alignment.
9JACK9 01-12-06, 02:30 PM	You want our OPINIONS on this, right? Huh. Ok, keeping that in mind, here's what I think, Zack: "Is it possable to have an evil cleric who worships a good god." The answer, in my opinion, is no. Evil being the polar opposite of good, and good being the polar opposite of evil, no way can a cleric claim to follow one but commit the other. Here's a fun fact I'm suprised nobody else decided to pull out: "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god ( generally by acting in way opposed to the god's alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features." -Players Handbook v3.5 page 33 -Players Handbook v3.0 page 32 I hate to sound like a fanboy, but my opinion follows the Wizards of the Coast's ruling on this one. So! That's my opinion on that. However, giving more than my opinion is what I'm good at, so here's one for everybody to mull/argue/comment over: In my opinion, you could, however, have SOMEWHAT of what Zach is talking about. I think that it's totally possible for an elven cleric, to start out at first level, worshiping Corellon Larethian. A Chaotic Neutral elf. One step away, right? Good to Neutral? Just for roleplaying purposes, we'll say that this kid playing this CN elf is a "steller roleplayer", and makes up a six-page long history of how his entire village was razed by orcs, and watched his entire family killed while he hid. (Pretty "original", I know... I could pound this out to six books and make a million, I'm so brilliant) So! The church takes him in, and because he was born with a pretty good wisdom, makes a pretty good cleric, with the exception that he's kinda quiet and sometimes creepy. Right, first level cleric, gets sent out with a group of six CG elven warriors, and they attack a tribe of orcs in the area. The cleric, who outranks the other men, has a horrible flashback of his family and friends dying at the hands of these creatures, and orders the men to kill every single orc man, woman, and child they find, and then set fire to the huts. Is this evil? Yep. Sure is. Would this act have Corellon Larethian personally strip him of his cleric level? Quite possibly. However, eventually, good ol' CL will find out what he's doing. Boy, this is gettin' long. Sorry about that, my opinion rambles. So, Elven Cleric is about to stop being a "Humble servant of Corellon Larethian", because he's eating orc hearts, which is evil, no matter WHAT the creature is. But does anybody know who would absolutly LOVE to have him on his team? For anybody that guessed "Erythnul, god of Slaughter", congradulations, you just won the prize. There isn't a doubt in my mind that good ol' Eryth' wouldn't snatch him up in a second after Corellon Larethian drops him... after all, Chaotic is Chaotic, and Neutral is one step away from Evil... Erythnul keeps supplying him spells, CN cleric gets a subconscious "pat-on-the-head" for being such a good follower, and the only thing that's changed is that now mister cleric can touch orcs faces, and watch the flesh melt off... What a good deal! Everybody wins. Except maybe the orcs. But that's a matter of "opinion".
cmanos 01-12-06, 02:51 PM	Is it possable to have an evil cleric who worships a good god. It is in Eberron. You can have a cleric of the Silver Flame (LG deity) who burns little children at the stake and totrures their parents to cleanse them of the taint of the sins of their ancestors. In Canon D&D...no.
RememberedRealms 01-12-06, 03:01 PM	Generally speaking, the good god would not grant you your powers if your alignment differed more than one step away in any direction. There are a few exceptions to this depending on the pantheon, but those are individual exceptions, and don’t usually allow outright evil to work in the service of good. Going back to the Cyric example that Harrow Blade brought up, the powers could come from an evil god of appropriate alignment for your character - although it does not necessarily have to be one dedicated to lies (although that certainly makes a lot of sense.) It would serve nearly any god in opposition to good to have a cleric committing atrocities in the name of a good god. You just might not get your powers if you're not evil enough. Or after months of faithful service it could be a major turning point in the character's career when the true source of their power is revealed. A possible source of inspiration could be the Knights Templar - of course the example is imperfect, but what matters here is the perception that while they were a Christian order, they were secretly worshipping Satan. Although I think it's more interesting to have the character ignorant of the part he is playing. Unfortunately there are far too many sources of inspiration for this in history and modern times - great evil being committed in the name of otherwise good religions.
Arilou_skiff 01-12-06, 05:09 PM	The answer, in my opinion, is no. Evil being the polar opposite of good, and good being the polar opposite of evil, no way can a cleric claim to follow one but commit the other. But you assume that the God (or a person for that matter) is limited to *only* his alignment. I don't think that's neccessarily true, the portfolio is as important, if not more so. Recall that CG is as far from LG as LE is, could you imagine say, a CG character praying to an LG god of war for victory? It gets even blurrier when you consider that most settings (I use the FR as an example) are polytheistic (or at least henotheistic) you pray to Mystra when casting spells, Mask when trying to hide, Cyric to help you lie, Malar for a successful hunt and Chauntea for a bountiful harvest. None of which conflicts with the other. NOW, I realize that there is a difference between "casual worship" (and even having a patron-deity) and being a member of the clergy, but my point is that a God may and *should* IMHO have purposes that are larger than his or her personal alignment. That is what makes god different from eg. Fiends or Celestials: They are tied to their portfolio and not just the abstract natures of "Good" and "Evil", "Law and "Chaos". It gets even whackier when you consider 2nd. ed. rules: Clerics of Shar for instance could be any alignment save LG (I believe) and Shar was/is a Neutral Evil deity. Likewise Mystra can have evil clerics. So while clerics of opposite alignments are not common they certainly aren't impossible either.
9JACK9 01-13-06, 08:29 AM	Recall that CG is as far from LG as LE is, could you imagine say, a CG character praying to an LG god of war for victory? Ummmm... boy, I sure don't recall that. Tell you what, though, I think that while they're "maybe" close, CG/LG is still twice as close together than CG/LE... CG - NG - LG. Two steps. CG - CN - CE - NE - LE. Four steps. Because you have to change both the Lawful/Chaotic AND the Good/Evil in order to shift alignments. So a Cleric of let's say... Corellon Larethian (CG god) praying to Heironeous? Lawful Good god of war? For victory? Yes. Yes, I can. Can I see that exact same Cleric, getting down on both knees, right before a battle, and asking Hextor, (Lawful Evil) who's such other titles are "Herald of Hell", and "Champion of Evil" to help aid his side in battle? I don't know. You tell me what you think I'd pick if I was roleplaying a Neutral Good cleric of a Chaotic Good god. However, as far as polythesistic settings go, you're totally right... you can, in fact, pray to as many gods as you want to, In 2nd AND in 3rd. And, of course, you're right again with some allowing different alignments, like Mystra, because I had to fight one about two months ago. So, as far as 2nd Ed goes, which MAYBE Zack is playing, (I doubt it) yes, Shar can and most likely does recruit from just about any alignment. However, Shar, in 3rd Edition, right out of the Core Book, would have to be limited to just... what is Shar? Neutral Evil, right? So, one step away would be: NE, LE, CE, NN. That's all the alignments one step away from hers. Neutral to Lawful, (has to stay evil) Neutral to Chaotic, (has to stay evil) and Evil to Neutral. (has to stay Neutral) While I agree that Gods should have many different purposes, they should stick close to the individual. If you read it out of the book, Pelor, who is Neutral Good, should never have "Cool facts about Pelor: Pelor wants to cut off Nerull's arms and legs, and gouge out his eyes with a dull spork, then spit on him, and you should TOO!!!" on the back of his "Pelor's Sunny-Grams" cereral box. He, Pelor, himself, the individual, is Neutral Good. And as far as D&D v3 goes, you have to be a fairly good person (NG, LG, CG, or NN) if you want to follow his teachings. So while clerics of opposite alignments are not common they certainly aren't impossible either. They are in 3.0 and 3.5. If you want to make a houserule, or play in a different world, like FR, for instance, that says otherwise, then be my guest.
Dreamfeed 01-13-06, 10:15 AM	Ummmm... boy, I sure don't recall that. Tell you what, though, I think that while they're "maybe" close, CG/LG is still twice as close together than CG/LE... CG - NG - LG. Two steps. CG - CN - CE - NE - LE. Four steps. Because you have to change both the Lawful/Chaotic AND the Good/Evil in order to shift alignments. Misunderstanding. When he says CG is as far from LG as LE is, he means that both CG and LE are two steps from LG. Not that CG is just as far from LG as it is from LE. However, Shar, in 3rd Edition, right out of the Core Book, would have to be limited to just... what is Shar? Neutral Evil, right? So, one step away would be: NE, LE, CE, NN. That's all the alignments one step away from hers. Neutral to Lawful, (has to stay evil) Neutral to Chaotic, (has to stay evil) and Evil to Neutral. (has to stay Neutral) While I agree that Gods should have many different purposes, they should stick close to the individual. If you read it out of the book, Pelor, who is Neutral Good, should never have "Cool facts about Pelor: Pelor wants to cut off Nerull's arms and legs, and gouge out his eyes with a dull spork, then spit on him, and you should TOO!!!" on the back of his "Pelor's Sunny-Grams" cereral box. He, Pelor, himself, the individual, is Neutral Good. And as far as D&D v3 goes, you have to be a fairly good person (NG, LG, CG, or NN) if you want to follow his teachings. Slight mistake. It says pretty clearly in the SRD: "Alignment A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral." So a cleric of Shar would be LE, NE or CE. They can't be neutral, because Shar is not a neutral godess. Don't know if it's different in FR, but at least that's the standard. Agree with the rest, and this is an interesting topic.