Developing My Cleric without Hampering My Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Developing My Cleric without Hampering My Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Karsus
12-07-07, 02:24 PM -I'm currently playing a Cleric [Lathander] 5 / Morninglord 3 in the campaign I am in. Certain circumstances have ocurred that have caused my character to lose some faith in his deity. Well, not exactly my character, but me. If a few more things fall into place, I don't think it would be unlikely for my character to renounce his faith- faith in most things divine, actually.

-The thing is, however, a Cleric who renounces his faith is virtually useless- he loses his spells and everything. I want to develop my character a little more, but at the same time, I don't want to hamper my party by basically being a walking meatbag unable to do very much. I was considering taking the Athar PrC, from DRAGON Magazine, but the problem is my character doesn't meet most criteria, and he has no knowledge of the Athar Faction of Sigil.

-What other paths are there to take? I want to further develop my character, but not at the expense of everyone else's characters.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
12-08-07, 04:11 AM Well it depends on how far you intend to fall but perhaps the best suggestion would be demon-worship. Several gods have been known to grant spells to worshipers of various demons.

If on the other hand you want to remain good consider that perhaps the living gods are not holding up to your ideals. Look at worshipping one of the deceased deities from lost empires of Faerun.

The last suggestion is the Ur-Priest but I don't remember if there is any significant benefit to being a fallen cleric for them.
CrimsonDeath
12-08-07, 05:04 AM The last suggestion is the Ur-Priest but I don't remember if there is any significant benefit to being a fallen cleric for them.

Not really. Ur-Priests are actually best off multiclassing out of arcane spellcasting classes. Bard is my favorite, because it has all the prerequisite skills as class skills with plenty of skill points per level. Duskblade isn't bad either. But either one will have to multiclass to enter by 5th level (Bard for Fort save and Duskblade for Bluff).
Lord Karsus
12-08-07, 10:12 AM Well it depends on how far you intend to fall...

-It's not as much "falling into darkness" as it is "turning his back on the divine". Were this an NPC, I'd have no problem making him an ex-Cleric, with no spellcasting capabilities, or anything. But, since I am in a party of five others, I don't want to, as I said, simply be a walking meatbag, where the entire prty is endangered slightly because of my loss of abilities.
Machem
12-08-07, 01:25 PM Not sure if this is really an option, but he can go from worshiping a god to worshiping an ideal or concept or whatever it says in the PHB.

Otherwise...ask your DM if you can retrain. Same character, same background, but levels in new stuff.

But honestly, the first option seems the best bet. Maybe he's turned his back on the gods but still believes in the power of X, whatever that may be.
CrimsonDeath
12-08-07, 08:17 PM You could ask the DM if you could do a rebuild as a Binder.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
12-08-07, 10:48 PM If you really want to turn on the gods without going dark I'd say Crimson Death has the best mechanical suggestion. Consider asking for a side quest where you're spell-less character seeks out some location he can do an instant re-build. There are a couple suggestions in PHB2 for such locations that should work for you.
Red_Wizards_Rock
12-09-07, 12:45 AM I'd still go with Ur-Priest and ask your DM if you can use half your ex-cleric lvl for caster lvl instead of arcane.

Find a new god.

Rebuild into a fighter, because that's just weak when you rebuild from one class and go into a totally different class that has no relationship with the previous class such as (Cleric to Wizard or Cleric to Barbarian)

You stop being a divine caster and you hamper your party so it shouldn't be about your party, but what you want.
CrimsonDeath
12-09-07, 03:56 AM Rebuild into a fighter, because that's just weak when you rebuild from one class and go into a totally different class that has no relationship with the previous class such as (Cleric to Wizard or Cleric to Barbarian)

And Cleric to Fighter is better?

The reason I suggested Binder was because if the character has become disillusioned with the gods, it might make sense to look for something beyond the gods to believe in. Vestiges fit that flavor and can provide some of the mechanical benefits expected from a cleric (or the flexibility to take on a variety of roles that might be left vacant by other members of the group).

Unfortunately, I never did get a handle on how to build or play a Binder effectively...
Lord Karsus
12-09-07, 10:07 AM You stop being a divine caster and you hamper your party so it shouldn't be about your party, but what you want.

-Personal preferences aside, I'd rather see the part continue to live, and the game continue if I don't do anything, than see the entire party wiped out, and the game end, if I do.

-What book are Binders in? Tome of Magic or Complete Arcane? I'll flip through whatever a Binder is, and see if it sounds interesting, and quite possibly even buy that sourcebook.
CrimsonDeath
12-09-07, 02:40 PM -What book are Binders in? Tome of Magic or Complete Arcane? I'll flip through whatever a Binder is, and see if it sounds interesting, and quite possibly even buy that sourcebook.

Tome of Magic. First thing there, and probably the best thing in it.

The Consolidated Binder Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085). You don't have to use everything there, but it's a good jumping-off point for trying to be at least marginally effective.
Red_Wizards_Rock
12-11-07, 12:42 PM Problem is how believable is it for a cleric to instantly become a binder when he didn't get any kind of training, but he just woke up that day and said I'm a binder. Cleric going to fighter or Ur-Priest is an easy change, but I'm under the impression you are trying to do something believable.

Now that it's clear to me your just wanting to change your class than Warlock. Wait until your higher lvl when Binder might be fun otherwise you'll probably get sick of it at lower lvl.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
12-13-07, 03:56 AM Actually I'd say binder makes sense from cleric. Clerics are used to contacting creature far more powerful from themselves and drawing power from that contact. Binders do the same. Clerics act as servants of some greater power. Someone leaving that path is not likely to look to remain a servant but to take power from that "greater" being. Perhaps most importantly they contact through planes of existance, devoid of magic, prepares them for receiving contact from such a being and allows them to accept it as natural. It also provides a means by which such a being might find them or through which they might discover it.
CrimsonDeath
12-13-07, 01:59 PM Also, according to the fluff, Binders are generally persecuted by Clerics. So a Cleric is likely to have heard of them and, if he's becoming disillusioned with the clergy, may think that if Clerics are so gung-ho against them, maybe the Binders are on to something.
the_rooster
12-13-07, 03:39 PM Another idea is to renounce your god...but have your spells not stop coming. have Lathander have patience with you. Use it as a plot device to cause your character to have some sort of epiphany later on and return to the god who never deserted him, depsite his desertion of that god. It'd make for a hell of a story.
OatsMalone
12-13-07, 07:36 PM There was a possibility mentioned above, and I agree with it; you don't really need to retool if you don't want to. Clerics can still cast without deity worship. Attach yourself to an ideal, or flavor it else-wise; it could be interesting if your PC keeps on getting spells despite his renouncing of Lathander. Perhaps Lathander wasn't the source at all, but it sprang out of your character's inner strength. Or perhaps it's a darker source...
Lord Karsus
12-13-07, 07:45 PM Another idea is to renounce your god...but have your spells not stop coming.

-That's something that's up to the DM, not me.

you don't really need to retool if you don't want to. Clerics can still cast without deity worship. Attach yourself to an ideal, or flavor it else-wise;

-I never liked that concept, and have always ignore it. My DM does as well. Thus, that is not an option. Your second suggestion was interesting, but is something I'll have to speak with my DM about.
OatsMalone
12-13-07, 08:38 PM -I never liked that concept, and have always ignore it. My DM does as well. Thus, that is not an option. Your second suggestion was interesting, but is something I'll have to speak with my DM about.

But of course; different strokes for different folks.

Good luck with it, though; maybe you'll have some interesting mystery in your future. As a DM, I'd love the chance to seed some fun and ambiguous forces in my campaign, especially when it's so connected to a player.
Lord Karsus
12-13-07, 08:43 PM Good luck with it, though; maybe you'll have some interesting mystery in your future. As a DM, I'd love the chance to seed some fun and ambiguous forces in my campaign, especially when it's so connected to a player.

-Yes, that allows me to alter my character, and allows the DM to plant a plot seed.
the_rooster
12-13-07, 09:04 PM -Yes, that allows me to alter my character, and allows the DM to plant a plot seed.

That was sort of what I was getting at. I figured it was implied that you'd have to consult your DM.
Dei
12-14-07, 09:25 PM Not sure if this is really an option, but he can go from worshiping a god to worshiping an ideal or concept or whatever it says in the PHB.

But honestly, the first option seems the best bet. Maybe he's turned his back on the gods but still believes in the power of X, whatever that may be.

Agreed, perhaps your character feels that the Gods have failed to show sufficient concern with upholding the ideals he holds dear in the material realm. As such he ceases to offer them devotions and instead merely meditates on the raw ideals that he serves, drawing his strength from inner focus and a determination to see that what is right in his eyes is done rather than what some God wills. It's completely legit according to the rules and could make for some truely epic RPing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 02:24 PM	-I'm currently playing a Cleric [Lathander] 5 / Morninglord 3 in the campaign I am in. Certain circumstances have ocurred that have caused my character to lose some faith in his deity. Well, not exactly my character, but me. If a few more things fall into place, I don't think it would be unlikely for my character to renounce his faith- faith in most things divine, actually. -The thing is, however, a Cleric who renounces his faith is virtually useless- he loses his spells and everything. I want to develop my character a little more, but at the same time, I don't want to hamper my party by basically being a walking meatbag unable to do very much. I was considering taking the Athar PrC, from DRAGON Magazine, but the problem is my character doesn't meet most criteria, and he has no knowledge of the Athar Faction of Sigil. -What other paths are there to take? I want to further develop my character, but not at the expense of everyone else's characters.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 12-08-07, 04:11 AM	Well it depends on how far you intend to fall but perhaps the best suggestion would be demon-worship. Several gods have been known to grant spells to worshipers of various demons. If on the other hand you want to remain good consider that perhaps the living gods are not holding up to your ideals. Look at worshipping one of the deceased deities from lost empires of Faerun. The last suggestion is the Ur-Priest but I don't remember if there is any significant benefit to being a fallen cleric for them.
CrimsonDeath 12-08-07, 05:04 AM	The last suggestion is the Ur-Priest but I don't remember if there is any significant benefit to being a fallen cleric for them. Not really. Ur-Priests are actually best off multiclassing out of arcane spellcasting classes. Bard is my favorite, because it has all the prerequisite skills as class skills with plenty of skill points per level. Duskblade isn't bad either. But either one will have to multiclass to enter by 5th level (Bard for Fort save and Duskblade for Bluff).
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:12 AM	Well it depends on how far you intend to fall... -It's not as much "falling into darkness" as it is "turning his back on the divine". Were this an NPC, I'd have no problem making him an ex-Cleric, with no spellcasting capabilities, or anything. But, since I am in a party of five others, I don't want to, as I said, simply be a walking meatbag, where the entire prty is endangered slightly because of my loss of abilities.
Machem 12-08-07, 01:25 PM	Not sure if this is really an option, but he can go from worshiping a god to worshiping an ideal or concept or whatever it says in the PHB. Otherwise...ask your DM if you can retrain. Same character, same background, but levels in new stuff. But honestly, the first option seems the best bet. Maybe he's turned his back on the gods but still believes in the power of X, whatever that may be.
CrimsonDeath 12-08-07, 08:17 PM	You could ask the DM if you could do a rebuild as a Binder.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 12-08-07, 10:48 PM	If you really want to turn on the gods without going dark I'd say Crimson Death has the best mechanical suggestion. Consider asking for a side quest where you're spell-less character seeks out some location he can do an instant re-build. There are a couple suggestions in PHB2 for such locations that should work for you.
Red_Wizards_Rock 12-09-07, 12:45 AM	I'd still go with Ur-Priest and ask your DM if you can use half your ex-cleric lvl for caster lvl instead of arcane. Find a new god. Rebuild into a fighter, because that's just weak when you rebuild from one class and go into a totally different class that has no relationship with the previous class such as (Cleric to Wizard or Cleric to Barbarian) You stop being a divine caster and you hamper your party so it shouldn't be about your party, but what you want.
CrimsonDeath 12-09-07, 03:56 AM	Rebuild into a fighter, because that's just weak when you rebuild from one class and go into a totally different class that has no relationship with the previous class such as (Cleric to Wizard or Cleric to Barbarian) And Cleric to Fighter is better? The reason I suggested Binder was because if the character has become disillusioned with the gods, it might make sense to look for something beyond the gods to believe in. Vestiges fit that flavor and can provide some of the mechanical benefits expected from a cleric (or the flexibility to take on a variety of roles that might be left vacant by other members of the group). Unfortunately, I never did get a handle on how to build or play a Binder effectively...
Lord Karsus 12-09-07, 10:07 AM	You stop being a divine caster and you hamper your party so it shouldn't be about your party, but what you want. -Personal preferences aside, I'd rather see the part continue to live, and the game continue if I don't do anything, than see the entire party wiped out, and the game end, if I do. -What book are Binders in? Tome of Magic or Complete Arcane? I'll flip through whatever a Binder is, and see if it sounds interesting, and quite possibly even buy that sourcebook.
CrimsonDeath 12-09-07, 02:40 PM	-What book are Binders in? Tome of Magic or Complete Arcane? I'll flip through whatever a Binder is, and see if it sounds interesting, and quite possibly even buy that sourcebook. Tome of Magic. First thing there, and probably the best thing in it. The Consolidated Binder Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085). You don't have to use everything there, but it's a good jumping-off point for trying to be at least marginally effective.
Red_Wizards_Rock 12-11-07, 12:42 PM	Problem is how believable is it for a cleric to instantly become a binder when he didn't get any kind of training, but he just woke up that day and said I'm a binder. Cleric going to fighter or Ur-Priest is an easy change, but I'm under the impression you are trying to do something believable. Now that it's clear to me your just wanting to change your class than Warlock. Wait until your higher lvl when Binder might be fun otherwise you'll probably get sick of it at lower lvl.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 12-13-07, 03:56 AM	Actually I'd say binder makes sense from cleric. Clerics are used to contacting creature far more powerful from themselves and drawing power from that contact. Binders do the same. Clerics act as servants of some greater power. Someone leaving that path is not likely to look to remain a servant but to take power from that "greater" being. Perhaps most importantly they contact through planes of existance, devoid of magic, prepares them for receiving contact from such a being and allows them to accept it as natural. It also provides a means by which such a being might find them or through which they might discover it.
CrimsonDeath 12-13-07, 01:59 PM	Also, according to the fluff, Binders are generally persecuted by Clerics. So a Cleric is likely to have heard of them and, if he's becoming disillusioned with the clergy, may think that if Clerics are so gung-ho against them, maybe the Binders are on to something.
the_rooster 12-13-07, 03:39 PM	Another idea is to renounce your god...but have your spells not stop coming. have Lathander have patience with you. Use it as a plot device to cause your character to have some sort of epiphany later on and return to the god who never deserted him, depsite his desertion of that god. It'd make for a hell of a story.
OatsMalone 12-13-07, 07:36 PM	There was a possibility mentioned above, and I agree with it; you don't really need to retool if you don't want to. Clerics can still cast without deity worship. Attach yourself to an ideal, or flavor it else-wise; it could be interesting if your PC keeps on getting spells despite his renouncing of Lathander. Perhaps Lathander wasn't the source at all, but it sprang out of your character's inner strength. Or perhaps it's a darker source...
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 07:45 PM	Another idea is to renounce your god...but have your spells not stop coming. -That's something that's up to the DM, not me. you don't really need to retool if you don't want to. Clerics can still cast without deity worship. Attach yourself to an ideal, or flavor it else-wise; -I never liked that concept, and have always ignore it. My DM does as well. Thus, that is not an option. Your second suggestion was interesting, but is something I'll have to speak with my DM about.
OatsMalone 12-13-07, 08:38 PM	-I never liked that concept, and have always ignore it. My DM does as well. Thus, that is not an option. Your second suggestion was interesting, but is something I'll have to speak with my DM about. But of course; different strokes for different folks. Good luck with it, though; maybe you'll have some interesting mystery in your future. As a DM, I'd love the chance to seed some fun and ambiguous forces in my campaign, especially when it's so connected to a player.
Lord Karsus 12-13-07, 08:43 PM	Good luck with it, though; maybe you'll have some interesting mystery in your future. As a DM, I'd love the chance to seed some fun and ambiguous forces in my campaign, especially when it's so connected to a player. -Yes, that allows me to alter my character, and allows the DM to plant a plot seed.
the_rooster 12-13-07, 09:04 PM	-Yes, that allows me to alter my character, and allows the DM to plant a plot seed. That was sort of what I was getting at. I figured it was implied that you'd have to consult your DM.
Dei 12-14-07, 09:25 PM	Not sure if this is really an option, but he can go from worshiping a god to worshiping an ideal or concept or whatever it says in the PHB. But honestly, the first option seems the best bet. Maybe he's turned his back on the gods but still believes in the power of X, whatever that may be. Agreed, perhaps your character feels that the Gods have failed to show sufficient concern with upholding the ideals he holds dear in the material realm. As such he ceases to offer them devotions and instead merely meditates on the raw ideals that he serves, drawing his strength from inner focus and a determination to see that what is right in his eyes is done rather than what some God wills. It's completely legit according to the rules and could make for some truely epic RPing.