Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Levism84 10-06-05, 02:40 PM	It seems to me that when most books talk about the lawful good paladin or monk, they conjure up a picture of quiet reserved reflection and an almost unhealthy focus on battling evil, and little else. When not "crusading" for their god or ideal, they are praying or sitting quiety. Taking it a step further, Exalted characters add a sense of righteousness that goes far beyond their less dedicated breathren, and they may focus on the community and helping others even more. I realize that these are harsh generalizations, and was hoping to put them all to shame with a new character I am developing for a new campaign i am going to be taking part in. I wish to play an Exalted Lawful Good Monk, preferably one with the VoP, whose focus is not on lording power over evil, but rather showing the world violence cannot stand against love and peace (LOVE AND PEACE! LOVE AND PEACE! - V. the S.). Other developments for the character, who would be based out of rokugen from OA, is his spiritual outlook. Mostly following the buddhist ideologies, I would like to modle his character (not physical form) off of Hotai, the laughing buddha. He would focus on the fist and foot mastery, giving him improved athletics, to aid in and out of combat. Here is my question, can a Exalted Monk be happy, carefree at times, prone to showing off acrobatics for children to make them happy, or even finding non-direct ways to avoid conflict? ~Rain~
aleshandre 10-06-05, 02:55 PM	There is nothing to preven a person of LG alignment from showing a sense of humor or even being playful.
Benjamin Regis Death 10-06-05, 09:33 PM	In my experience playing as a LG alighned character doesnt = no fun just control urself and be somewhat reserved and u should be fine ive always had fun as my pladins and even more fun with my monks of this pativcular alighnment
nihility 10-06-05, 11:23 PM	Mostly following the buddhist ideologies, I would like to modle his character (not physical form) off of Hotai, the laughing buddha. He would focus on the fist and foot mastery, giving him improved athletics, to aid in and out of combat. Here is my question, can a Exalted Monk be happy, carefree at times, prone to showing off acrobatics for children to make them happy, or even finding non-direct ways to avoid conflict? I think you've done a pretty good job of answering your own question, but let's break it down. First, good. In DnD, good essentially means "altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings," to quote the PHB. You've got that nailed just fine, so I don't think there's any problem with that. The bigger problem seems to stem from the law-chaos axis. Unfortunately, these are quite poorly defined relative to good and evil, and the good-evil axis is by far the most important one in "default" campaigns. However, there are two broad schools of thought on the matter, at least to my knowledge. The first claims that law is essentially a matter of discipline or consistency in action: so long as the character typically acts according to some set of fairly narrowly-defined rules, they are lawful. This is in the spirit of "honor" and "reliability," two standards for the lawful alignment set out in the PHB. The other claims that law implies a basic respect for rules, including those imposed by local governments and social groups, and a lawful individual is one who feels obligated to follow them to a substantial degree. This is in the spirit of the PHB's mention of "obedience to authority." It's hard to follow the PHB's brief definition all at once, and these schools of thought reflect this. Both of these schools have their problems. Adhering to a code of honor and obeying authority is quite a difficult proposition in a world filled with wicked despots and warlords. One would want, I think, to call a person martyred for their faith lawful: they have paid a heavy price for not embracing change, as it were. At the same time, it's hard to say someone is lawful when they openly reject the law of the land. Personally, when I DM, I try to create symmetry between the law-chaos axis and the good-evil axis. For example, good and evil are both for things, and do not simply define themselves as the absence of the other. From this perspective, you might have more luck. Buddhism, along with Taoism and Hinduism, is part of a long line of religious thought dating to the late Bronze Age (as far as I understand the history). Central to these religous ideals is the notion of an impersonal comsic order that all creation is a part of. That is, they contain the notion of a universal law that is beyond the knowledge or power of even the gods. I think that might make a good base for your consideration of what law might mean to an exalted monk. Beyond that, you might want to consider societies where obeying the rules and being good were or are one and the same. We have the notion today that the laws of society and the fundamentals of ethics are not automatically the same; to paraphrase Joseph Campbell, if I run a red light, I look out for a cop, not God. This is not the view in all cultures. So, basically, I think there's a lot more to lawfulness than the paladin with a stick lodged somewhere unpleasant. (http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=223) That's a sort of caricature of lawfulness, like the TV accountant who irons his socks every day at 7:48 pm sharp. The devoted monk, meditating and fasting, is better, but of course you know that the way of the monk is only one of many ways in Buddhism of according oneself to the ultimate truth of the universe. As you've already mentioned, there's the way of walking around and experiencing life, and of coming down the mountain full of widsom and laughter. I think that's lawful, too. :) Ultimately, I think it comes down to this: if your character devotes himself or herself to doing good works, follows a path of righteousness, and holds to those beliefs even at great personal cost, then I think it perfectly appropriate to call that character lawful good. If he or she takes delight in life, why, so much the better! Should not such a person feel content and at ease in life? And certainly, by taking the time to pass that feeling on to others, they are making the world a better place. This world is nirvana, after all, and so it seems proper that a monk might remind people of that joy whenever possible. As for finding non-direct ways of avoiding conflict, I would endorse this fully. Think of Aikido, where the stories of the masters so often revolve around them not using their martial prowess at all. Think also of Jainism, and the pacifism of Christ and so many other religious figures. If one can correct a person and stop them from doing harm, good, but so much the better if one can do so without doing harm in the process. All life has value, after all, even that of a villain, and a nonlethal punch is still a kind of violence.
Fithero 10-07-05, 02:24 AM	I once played a paladin who was quite jaded and cynical. He would often sigh and make sarcastic comments whenever something terrible happened and at times he was actually suicidal. Charging into battle against foes that were way out of his league...since he felt that he didnt really deserve to live. He was a pretty awsome character...and LG too, not to shabby. Later
Worguron 10-07-05, 03:46 AM	Heavens no. My current character is Lawful Good, and he is infinitely more playful and jocular than my last character who was Chaotic Good. Alignment has less to do with general personality and more to do with your actions and moral beliefs. A good example comes from a "Family Guy" joke. Kenneth, the BA mail clerk with a heart of gold. He threatens people when they come and ask for their mail, but he gives half of his paycheck to orphans. Obviously, Kenneth is not a pleasant person to be around, but he would still be considered good because of his actual actions.
eagleye 10-07-05, 05:01 AM	There was a very good article on this in an early Save My Game: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a Being Lawful, or Good for that matter, doens't mean you can't have fun, laugh, or visit the hookers for that matter.
todecker 10-08-05, 12:39 AM	Just like it doesn't mean you have to be "Lawful Stupid" either. They have some great articles in the BoED which give numerous examples of different character attitudes and behaviors that challenge "traditional" ideas of how LGs MUST act and react.
Leap 10-10-05, 09:54 AM	Hmmm Lawfuls do have a sense of humour (lets face it, they NEED it to be Lawful in the first place ;) ).... Most folks are Lawful and most folks have a sense of humour.
aleshandre 10-10-05, 02:58 PM	Hey, Leap, good to see you post again. I have found that the more of a sense of humor a person has, the more likely the person is to be obedient to laws. People who don't have a sense of humor are more likely to be involved in criminal activity...or rap.
Llochlyn 10-12-05, 08:35 PM	All has been said for RP purpose mechanically, monks have the perform skill, you could make a good use of it too Perform (one man show)... No, that would be spreading evil, find another
Leap_UK 10-13-05, 05:36 AM	Hey, Leap, good to see you post again. I have found that the more of a sense of humor a person has, the more likely the person is to be obedient to laws. People who don't have a sense of humor are more likely to be involved in criminal activity...or rap. Heya Ale-shandy :) If the world was just, rap itself would BE a criminal activity ;) I tend to find the sense of humor a person has is often the best way to figure out their "alignment".... LE: Happy to laugh at the misfortunes of others but must never be the butt of a joke themselves unless they make it so (Imagine how stalin must have been if you took the p!ss....GULP!) LG: A bit PC CG: Cheeky but no harm meant CE: Cynical and hollow mocking laughter (Think "raistlin")
Leap_UK 10-13-05, 08:47 AM	To be honest, good demands a sense of fun and humor..... ....at least in my understanding of good...... The good v evil bit is mostly about despair. Good is about joi d'vive, vibrance, hope, shared joy, friendship - so it is very easy for a CG, sick of being bullied by govt, can turn CE as they despair of the power of the state. Evil then is about sneering despair and degradation. Think of cynical sneering raistlin with no warmth to his laughter - a good example of Evil. (Me, elsewhere on here :) )
rampant 10-13-05, 11:29 AM	invest heavily in quick nonlethal styles of combat grappling is a good idea if your str is high enoug but take stunning fist for your feat imp grapple can be taken any time try to strike for subdual use diplomacy or perform to get out of a fight try to have a joke on heand to lighten a tense mood by no means are you to make puns this act while not evil in and of itself generally leads to violence
nihility 10-13-05, 11:34 AM	If the world was just, rap itself would BE a criminal activity ;) The same was said about Rock, Jazz, Ragtime, various styles now associated with ballroom dance, certain Opera, and on and on throughout the ages. If you listen to music, read books, or watch movies, odds are that someone at some point in time thinks or thought that what you're doing is evil. Remember, there are still people out there who think that our beloved pastime of DnD is a literal work of evil (http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/D&D&Harry.htm). So, don't be so quick to judge, eh? :) Yes, I know that the smily face is supposed to mean that you were speaking at least partly in jest, but I think it's germane to a discussion of ethics, however abstract, to point out that aesthetics and morality are often conflated to ill effect. Edit: the link address is displayed properly in the "You are leaving Wizards" page, but it gets cut off when you click on "continue." Here's the address for the purposes of cut-and-paste: http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/D&D&Harry.htm
Leap_UK 10-13-05, 12:41 PM	The same was said about Rock, Jazz, Ragtime, various styles now associated with ballroom dance, certain Opera, and on and on throughout the ages. If you listen to music, read books, or watch movies, odds are that someone at some point in time thinks or thought that what you're doing is evil. Remember, there are still people out there who think that our beloved pastime of DnD is a literal work of evil (http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/D&D&Harry.htm). So, don't be so quick to judge, eh? :) Yes, I know that the smily face is supposed to mean that you were speaking at least partly in jest, but I think it's germane to a discussion of ethics, however abstract, to point out that aesthetics and morality are often conflated to ill effect. Gotta say that is a classic post on a topic discussing a sense of humor *cough* :D hehehe And anyway, ALL morality is about aesthetics.
nihility 10-13-05, 01:33 PM	Gotta say that is a classic post on a topic discussing a sense of humor *cough* :D hehehe *shrug* Like I said, I thought it was germane. Consider this: the question at hand is the ability of a person heavily invested in matters of morality to have humor and warmth. In the course of the discussion, a sort of joke is made that I find, shall we say, unjust. So, I address the issue in a rather serious and straight-laced fashion. This is not too different than the very stereotype the OP is referring to. A useful question, then, might be how one could respond to a rather minor or trivial injustice without sounding anything like me. :) I'd like to pretend I did that self-consciously. And anyway, ALL morality is about aesthetics. I think at this point we are well and truly beyond the scope of this thread: what is the nature of morality? That is a question that humanity has been grappling with for quite some time now, after all. Edit: it occurs to me that "aesthetics" was perhaps too pregnant a word for my purpose. What I had in mind particularly was the idea that a given form of popular entertainment or popular art has a moral weight that transfers to the people who partake in it. I know more than one excellent scientist who listens to cheesy pop music (even rap!), and a I know certain pastor who favors what I would consider very corny folk music, yet who has a deep spirituality that I respect a great deal.
aleshandre 10-14-05, 11:28 AM	Well, on a small scale, the artistic forms produced reflect the morality of the artists, but on a broad scale, they affect the morality, by providing an atractive way of seeing said morality in action. In artistic expressions, any morality can be portrayed with no negative concequences, regardless of the reality of it. When the public views that example of a morality that is less altruistic than the current standard, the public morality tends toward that morality until what is publicly acceptable is less moral than it was previously.
Leap_UK 10-14-05, 11:35 AM	What I meant was that all "morality" is an expression of subjective values. Some people try to objectify them and apply them to others - we call them "lawful" here-abouts ;) - others accept them for what they are (subjective) and hold no interest in trying to make others follow them. :D Thus morality is about aesthetics. It is an expression of what you think/feel is good. Of course some may propose an over-deity who creates good but that is a nonsense (as is shown by the whole "is it good becuase god wills it or does god will it becuase it is good" type of discussion :) ). When we say "X is good" it means "X is something we approve of". Nothing more. Nothing less. It is aesthetics. :D
aleshandre 10-14-05, 04:13 PM	Personally, when I say something is good (in the sense of morality - as opposed to purely subjective topics, such as food and music;)) I mean that it is generally altruistic.
nihility 10-14-05, 05:13 PM	What I meant was that all "morality" is an expression of subjective values. Some people try to objectify them and apply them to others - we call them "lawful" here-abouts ;) - others accept them for what they are (subjective) and hold no interest in trying to make others follow them. :D Thus morality is about aesthetics. It is an expression of what you think/feel is good. Of course some may propose an over-deity who creates good but that is a nonsense (as is shown by the whole "is it good becuase god wills it or does god will it becuase it is good" type of discussion :) ). When we say "X is good" it means "X is something we approve of". Nothing more. Nothing less. It is aesthetics. :D Yeah, this is exactly where I didn't want to go. You make these proclamations about religion and meaning and reality as though it was a solved problem. It's not. Your answers may be good enough for you, but there is a vast ocean of human thought devoted to puzzling it out. That ocean is much too deep for us to dive into in this limited context.
nihility 10-14-05, 05:14 PM	Personally, when I say something is good (in the sense of morality - as opposed to purely subjective topics, such as food and music;)) I mean that it is generally altruistic. Conveniently enough, that's also what DnD means by it. :thumbsup:
Leap_UK 10-15-05, 05:38 AM	Yeah, this is exactly where I didn't want to go. You make these proclamations about religion and meaning and reality as though it was a solved problem. It's not. Your answers may be good enough for you, but there is a vast ocean of human thought devoted to puzzling it out. That ocean is much too deep for us to dive into in this limited context. You misunderstand me. My point is that there isnt a problem to solve :) The "problems" come when folks try to "solve" morality; when there's nothing to solve. Its just taste :D But it is not possible to converse without furthering one side over another :)
Leap_UK 10-15-05, 05:45 AM	Personally, when I say something is good (in the sense of morality - as opposed to purely subjective topics, such as food and music;)) I mean that it is generally altruistic. Then why dont you say "altruistic"? Why do you feel the need to give it a pseudonym? :)
Puskara 10-15-05, 10:05 AM	That all depends, are hookers legal? Remember most LG charactes are Good first, Lawfull second. The law is a facilitator to the greater good. =)
aleshandre 10-15-05, 01:54 PM	Then why dont you say "altruistic"? Why do you feel the need to give it a pseudonym? :) Good is synonymous with altruism. Why not use a synonym that is easier to say and write? Main Entry: 1good Pronunciation: 'gud Function: adjective Inflected Form(s): bet·ter /'be-t&r/; best /'best/ Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gOd; akin to Old High German guot good, Sanskrit gadhya what one clings to 1 a (1) : of a favorable character or tendency <good news> (2) : BOUNTIFUL, FERTILE <good land> (3) : HANDSOME, ATTRACTIVE <good looks> b (1) : SUITABLE, FIT <good to eat> (2) : free from injury or disease <one good arm> (3) : not depreciated <bad money drives out good> (4) : commercially sound <a good risk> (5) : that can be relied on <good for another year> <good for a hundred dollars> <always good for a laugh> (6) : PROFITABLE, ADVANTAGEOUS <made a very good deal> c (1) : AGREEABLE, PLEASANT <had a good time> (2) : SALUTARY, WHOLESOME <good for a cold> (3) : AMUSING, CLEVER <a good joke> d (1) : of a noticeably large size or quantity : CONSIDERABLE <won by a good margin> <a good bit of the time> (2) : FULL <waited a good hour> (3) -- used as an intensive <a good many of us> e (1) : WELL-FOUNDED, COGENT <good reasons> (2) : TRUE <holds good for society at large> (3) : deserving of respect : HONORABLE <in good standing> (4) : legally valid or effectual <good title> f (1) : ADEQUATE, SATISFACTORY <good care> -- often used in faint praise <his serve is only good -- Frank Deford> (2) : conforming to a standard <good English> (3) : CHOICE, DISCRIMINATING <good taste> (4) : containing less fat and being less tender than higher grades -- used of meat and especially of beef 2 a (1) : VIRTUOUS, RIGHT, COMMENDABLE <a good person> <good conduct> (2) : KIND, BENEVOLENT <good intentions> b : UPPER-CLASS <a good family> c : COMPETENT, SKILLFUL <a good doctor> d (1) : LOYAL <a good party man> <a good Catholic> (2) : CLOSE <a good friend> e : free from infirmity or sorrow <I feel good> - good·ish /'gu-dish/ adjective - as good as : in effect : VIRTUALLY <as good as dead> - as good as gold 1 : of the highest worth or reliability <his promise is as good as gold> 2 : well-behaved <the child was as good as gold>
Leap_UK 10-16-05, 04:56 AM	Perhaps because "altruistic" has a clear meaning when the meaning of good is varied and somewhat convoluted.....? :D
Silverthumb128 10-17-05, 02:36 AM	Lawful Good does NOT by ANY MEANS mean that you are automatically some stuck-up, nose-in-the-air windbag. Lawful Good has a different kind of fun than, say, Neutral Evil. The huge misconception that players seem to have is that alignments are what the character has to be. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The character has personality traits and outlooks/perspectives that cause them to fall into a certain category, like Lawful Good. The alignments are by no means a boundary for the character, they are how the character behaves, as a person. You aren't Lawful Good because you're a Paladin, you're a Paladin because you're Lawful Good. They aren't restrictions, they're traits. If a character changes alignment, they've had a change of heart.
AA_Metatron 10-17-05, 02:53 AM	After looking through all the rationale for a fun character based on LG (finally!) I see that there is more dimensions to the LG character than I ever thought possible. If the character is LG and is always the happy go lucky sort as described, is placing a fun, happy LG character along the same lines as our friendly neighbourhood "arachnid man"* fair? Just want to gauge a fun happy hero.. *names and identity have been changed for copyright purposes. A.K.A Mr P. Parker