Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-29-06, 11:55 PM	I'm just wondering what y'all think of the idea of a horse character who used to be a paladin's special mount, but the paladin was betrayed and killed in battle. The mount managed to escape. Mourning the paladin's death, the mount seek some way of bringing the paladin's betrayers to justice. Since the mount would probably be a heavy warhorse, has hooves incapable of somatic components, and would have excellent strength and constitution, modest dexterity and wisdom, and rather poor intelligence and charisma, I was thinking a mix of fighter, psychic warrior could do it. I don't think the mount itself should aspire to be a paladin. It just seems... wrong. The character wouldn't mind being ridden, but would be very selective about who's allowed to ride (must be LG or NG (or have duped the character into thinking so), must be on roughly the same mission as the ex-mount at the time. Oh, and mustn't be too heavy.) It would be nice if this character could talk, but I'm guessing that a mount, even with 6+ intelligence, can't just put two points into Speak Language to be able to talk in common. What would it be like, previously always taking orders from someone you admire, then suddenly, the paladin is dead, and you're on your own? Would the ex-mount still have some lingering desire for a master, but find it very difficult to find someone who was as admirable and heroic as the paladin, yet try to "find" the character of the paladin in others, in case there's an oppurtunity to return to the life without the uncertainties and dilemmas that independence brings? Or maybe the ex-mount relishes independence, and feels that being independent is better than being someone else's horse, and it was a testament to the paladin's incredible charisma and moral heroism that the mount admired him/her in spite of the paladin denying the mount the independence which s/he so vigorously enjoys, because although being someone else's mount is usually just drudgery, being the mount of someone so great is an honor? (obviously, the mount may have a few hero-worship issues with his/her old paladin master. Perhaps it could be an interesting development if the the mount found out that the paladin wasn't universally admired and loved, even by good people (like, maybe before the paladin got the mount, s/he was assigned to a mission and failed, and the families and friends of the victims of that failure still blame the paladin).)
Monsco 07-30-06, 11:29 AM	In all my time playing D&D, I've never herd of this, and thats good. Its a cool idea. Ususally there is a strong bond bettween the mount and palidin, so the horse is still buming out about it. So most likley, its mornfull. Keep up the creative ideas.
Stormrunner 07-30-06, 01:55 PM	It's an interesting concept, but to pull it off will require a forgiving DM who is willing to bend the rules a bit. (BTW, I highly recommend reading The Horse And His Boy from C.S. Lewis' Narnia books. That and Black Beauty should be de rigeur for anyone trying to play an equine character.) The PH doesn't say what happens to a special mount, animal companion, or familiar when its master dies. However, a case could be made that the mount loses its special abilities, extra HD, etc because it is no longer the special mount of a paladin (no paladin = no special link = no special abilities). Basically what you have here is an Awakened heavy warhorse, possibly with the Celestial Creature template. Awakened gives the ability to speak, resets Int to a 3d6 roll, adds +2 hit dice, and adds +1d3 to Cha. For simplicity's sake we can assume average rolls for an Int of 10 and a +2 to Cha. So the Talking Horse has racial stat adjustments of Str+8, Dex+2, Con+6, Int+0, Wis+2, Cha-2. Base Move 50', +4 natural armor, 2 primary hoof kicks and a secondary bite, lowlight vision, Scent. Animal HD give cleric BAB, good Fort and Refl saves, and skill points like a fighter. This is pretty close to a centaur - Dex 2 pts lower, natural armor 1 pt lower, but the hoof kicks are primary instead of secondary. Centaur Level Adjustment is +3, Scent adds another +1 for a +4. No hands is a big disadvantage, so I could see lowering the LA to +2. The DM might be willing to also drop the +2 HD from awaken, as they are inferior to class level HD. So, 4 racial HD, +2 LA = ECL 6+class levels. You're going to be at least 6 levels behind everyone else in terms of class abilities, so you'll want to qualify for a prestige class as soon as possible, since they typically have more "bang per buck" from being concentrated into 10 levels instead of 20. Since you can't wield weapons, and can't don/doff armor without help, consider classes which don't need weapons or armor, such as Monk or Battledancer. Despite your high Str, the lack of weapon and shield means Horse is only so-so in the Tank role. So you might also consider a support role, something that can boost your companions - Bard seems a little silly ("Singing frog? Hah! I can top that..."), but Marshal might be viable - unfortunately, both depend heavily on Cha which is Horse's weak point. Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty might make a lot of sense for this character, since the lack of hands and other disadvantages help balance the Cheese Factor a bit, and the whole Exalted thing is appropriate for someone who was devoted to the service of a paladin. It means no Horseshoes of Speed for you, but opens up some other options. You could put the primary stat increases from VoP towards Cha, representing Horse's growing self-confidence. You might even be able to make an argument for Nymph's Kiss... Breathe in. Breathe out. Blood gurgled in his lungs with every shuddering heave of his flanks, the barbed lance that skewered his throat digging into his flesh with each breath. He no longer felt the sting of the individual barbs: sprawled awkwardly where he had fallen, his entire world had shrunken to a red haze of pain and grief. His master was dead. He had felt the shock of the sword-stroke as if the fell blade had pierced his own heart, felt the link between them shatter like melt-rotten ice. It was that, even more than his own wounds, that dropped him in his tracks as if pole-axed. Breathe in. Breathe out. Pain and grief and guilt. He had failed, failed in a Steed's duty to serve and protect, failed when his master needed him most. It seemed that the laughter of the demons still rang in his ears, their foul stench still filled his nostrils, even over the copper tang of his own blood. Breathe in. Breathe out. He shuddered again, the wind and the cold earth slowly stealing the warmth from his dying flesh. Why was it so hard to think? A pale light slowly grew to illuminate the torn earth and trampled grass of the little glade where the brave adventures of his master had come to an end. The moon was rising, casting a cold disdainful eye upon the fool, the coward, the failure. He could no longer turn his head, but he closed his one remaining eye in shame. Breathe in. Breathe out. One ear twitched at a rustle in the grass. So, the scavengers came creeping out at last, to gnaw the bodies of the fallen. A fitting end for a worthless piece of offal like himself. Breathe in. He snorted - or tried to, it became a bloody racking cough instead. There was another scent, a scent of flowers and sweet grasses, like a fresh breeze blowing away the stink of blood and bowels and death. Forcing open lids made sticky with drying blood, he rolled his eye to see what stood beside him. Every line of her was graceful, like the wind made flesh. Her mane waved and flowed like tall grasses before a storm, parting to reveal the shaft of her long, straight horn, glowing with the radiance that he had taken for moonlight. On either side of that pure spear, dark long-lashed eyes regarded him with compassion and sorrow. He flinched from that gaze, closing his eye and expelling the breath from his lungs in a long gurgle. Unworthy! Unclean! He made a violent effort to rise, to flee, not to taint her pure light with his presence, but only succeeded in kicking his hindlegs feebly and triggering another racking cough. Warm breath flowed over him like soothing water, and her lips gently brushed along the length of his mane. The touch sent a shock through him, a shuddering thrill that had him on his feet and gasping before he realized what was happening. Dizzy, he shook his head to clear it, and opened his eyes. No-one was there, no-one but the dead, silent and unmoving. But his wounds were healed, the spear in his neck gone, both eyes whole again, his bowels back in his belly where they belonged. And there was still a scent of flowers on the air. Lowering his head, he gazed in wonder at the little clusters of star-like flowers glowing white in the starlight, a double row of them stretching away from him into the darkness of the wood, each little cluster shaped like the print of a cloven hoof. ... or in this case, Celestial Unicorn's Kiss ...
sparkster4242 07-30-06, 04:49 PM	Shadowfax from tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and the Ranhyn, from Stephen R Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, would also be decent as source material.
Stormrunner 07-30-06, 05:01 PM	Oh, there are quite a few possible inspiration-sources (Robert Adams' Horseclans books come to mind), but very few where the horse is the hero and protagonist and the story is told through the horse's eyes.
JulesCARV 07-30-06, 05:53 PM	Beautiful story, stormrunner. I figure a basic paladin's mount (heavy warhorse with 6 int, +1 strength, +4 natural armor, improved evasion, and two bonus hit dice) can't have an ECL higher than 5, logically. After all, it's a level 5 paladin's class feature, so an LA +0, no racial HD paladin (most paladins) would have an ECL of 5 including the mount -- and that's given that paladins aren't total schlubs without their mount (well... better than commoners, anyway). At least, that's my argument. On the other hand, a heavy warhorse has 4 hit dice on its own, and two bonus hit dice bring it up to 6 hit dice, so saying that its ECL can't be higher than 5 implies a negative level adjustment of at least -1, something which is so far unprecedented in D&D.
Demonfey 07-30-06, 11:33 PM	Interesting idea, although you might just need a well placed awaken spell in there.
remmun 07-30-06, 11:54 PM	i really like the story and the chaacter conflicts you showed in your ex-paladin mount. however, it's in my opinion that this could easily applied to a person instead of a horse but still impliment the horse and many of the ideas you expressed. i'll explain: say for instance that after the tradgic death of the paladin, his mount seeks out someone the paladin knew well. maybe a local boy who always aspired to be just like the paladin and knew him and his mount well. the mount wishes revenge and through a divine link the boy and horse are able to comunicate ( much in the way a druid "speaks" to his/her animal companion) the horse helps the boy become a replacement paladin and together they seek justice for the fallen paladin. for added roleplay effect the boy could weild the same sword the fallen paladin did (or whatever weapon he did use). your ideas are really creative and it takes an aproach rarely seen. i hope my suggestions can help spark that great creativity enough for you to find a good solution.
JulesCARV 07-31-06, 03:19 AM	i really like the story and the chaacter conflicts you showed in your ex-paladin mount. however, it's in my opinion that this could easily applied to a person instead of a horse but still impliment the horse and many of the ideas you expressed. With all due respect, this kinda negates the concept of my character.
remmun 07-31-06, 09:50 AM	just thought it might be an easier way to incorperate some of the elements you expressed earlier. sorry i wasen't of much help. i haven't alot of experiance with horse-chracters.
Chibi_fro 08-01-06, 05:36 AM	I'de say that Pali's horse could make a good monk. I think though that you could say that it's HD and armor, strength and int progression would be the horse getting stronger as the adventures go on, his own way of leveling up. However the shared spells,etc are obviously due to the connection of the mount and Paladin. You could take on any class with the proper feats (eschew materials for example). Monks seems best to me for a few reasons though. Monks seems to have similar ideals to paladins. Monks also have a sense of honor, which leads them to say justify those to killed their loved ones. Of course... a monk horse would also be INCREDIBLY fast, strong, and every four levels would be a little wiser. As for the 6 INT... You could either work with that, or after leaving the group due to your Paladin's death you could have come across a druid. Said druid spoke with you, saw you pain and care for the paladin and decided to awaken you so that you could seek vengence. Also, what monk wouldn't train a horse in the ways of unarmed combat?
JulesCARV 08-01-06, 01:06 PM	I'm not even sure a paladin's mount can be awakened. It might count as a magical beast and not an animal and thus not be eligible to have that spell cast.
Chibi_fro 08-01-06, 02:02 PM	I'm not even sure a paladin's mount can be awakened. It might count as a magical beast and not an animal and thus not be eligible to have that spell cast. Didn't even think to comment about that last night, thanks for the reminder. Paladin horses do count as magical creatures, but I think that's to explain the special link abilities it has. I'de imagine that it would revert back to a normal horse after the paladin's passing. It would just be a horse that progressed and became stronger. I'de say its a GM call on that....Even if it doesn't revert a few druid/masters of the wild can get it done...
Wyrmul 08-02-06, 02:38 AM	I was in a game where one of the PCs was a mount. It was fun for a while, but communication issues got to be a bit of a drag. Now that they are out you should be able to rent some Brisco County Jr DVDs. The horse in there was able and independant. Good luck with it.
Nadokla 08-05-06, 05:43 PM	So, if the mount needs to be called from their celestial realms each day by the paladin, and the paladin is dead, how would the mount get called each day? As you may already be aware, unlike previous editions, a 3.5 paladin's mount must be called each day rather than being a beast that is always around.
Chibi_fro 08-05-06, 09:43 PM	So, if the mount needs to be called from their celestial realms each day by the paladin, and the paladin is dead, how would the mount get called each day? As you may already be aware, unlike previous editions, a 3.5 paladin's mount must be called each day rather than being a beast that is always around. *grumble 3.5 grumble* ALRIGHT!!! Here's what happened.... The Pali's god/godess was also upset by the loss of such a valiant crusader, and seeing the mounts dismay and eagerness to seek revenge on those who had slain the paladin said god/godess decided to make the special mount less special and sent it to adventure with the group as a regular horse....UNTILL the aformentioned druid awawkened said horse to become what it is today/the first day it enters game...
JulesCARV 08-07-06, 11:11 PM	Just curious: why does there need to be the whole lose paladin mount powers then get reawakened song and dance, instead of just having the mount be a paladin's mount, never losing the paladin mount powers, and never being awakened either, and getting speech through some sort of minor wondrous item or something?
Fithero 08-07-06, 11:31 PM	Cos without a paladin... a paladins mount is just a mount. Its like familiars... think of the amount of arcane spell users who have died over the years, if all their familiars remaind intelligent and empowered... there would be some serious issues. Its the connection with the wizard (or paladin) that enhances the creature, no master (or partner) no enhancement. Anyway, its not that big a deal, just let the paladins druid friend cast awaken on the horse. Sorry if this has already been asked, but why the heck would you want to play a horse anyway? The Mr. Ed jokes would wear thin pretty damn quick. Later
JulesCARV 08-09-06, 12:25 AM	I dunno... sometimes you wanna play an elf, sometimes you wanna play a goblin, sometimes you wanna play a warforged, sometimes you wanna play a human, and sometimes you wanna play a horse. The thing is, from a philosophical perspective, I'm not sure the mount would really like most druids. Most druids want to keep everything in balance. Most paladins want to make the world a better place, overturning the status quo if need be. Of course, it could be a combination of a druidic sect and a paladin order that have similar objectives (e.g., paladins of the Silver Flame and druids of the Gatekeepers trying to keep supernatural evils out of Eberron), but I just don't think the awakening should be mandatory... I mean, that's the standard way of creating a playable animal, and it's a fine way, but I think there should be other ways as well, and I just find the idea of excluding non-awakened paladin's mounts, even though they have near-human levels of intelligence, kinda irritating. I hope I'm not coming off as ungrateful for the help you all have been giving me. I've enjoyed it. It's just that I feel like more than one option should be available in terms of why the horse would have more than 2 int. Awakening is fine, but I don't want it to be the only way.
Chibi_fro 08-09-06, 09:14 AM	There's more then one way, just depends on the people you're playing with. Some people have a problem with anything but the basic races and classes. Some people refuse to play as those basic races and classes. DMs and they way they run their world(s) also varies greatly. Your DM may only allow a horse to be intellegent via awakening, or your DM could hate such a basic idea. Depending on if he/she is willing to bend the rules,( though I'm not even sure it is bending the rules) you could decide that the horse became intellegent throuh its own willpower. Can't honestly think of how just at the moment, but the Pali's horse through shear willpower at determination could have found a way to learn.... Or....He could be a barbarian....which would be weird cause they're unlawful, but he wouldn't need to be smart... ;)
Exquisite_Flopilidopilies 08-10-06, 06:20 PM	In the usual case, I do think that a paladin's warhorse would just return to the celestial realms from which it came (and to which it returns after its term of 2 hr/paladin level is expired). So I like the idea that there's some kind of "unfinished business" keeping the horse here. I don't see any mechanical problem with it, really. I like the general idea of a horse character and the background a lot, I'd work to accommodate it in my game. You have to consider what a potential pain it will be to run and play, though. You'll be stabled when everyone's having their tavern encounter. You'll never have "normal" civilized encounters, be able to use most treasure, etc. You'll be limited in all kinds of ways by not having hands or the ability to speak. You won't even be able to bard yourself. As a DM, I would be close to not allowing it unless you had some way around these restrictions, at least sometimes. Maybe a wondrous item (or psionic ability--I'm unfamiliar with psionics and psychic warrior) allowing you to shift into a single humanoid form, or at least speak and use mage hand or something. These would be reasonable items for either a particularly favored mount (depending on the paladin's disposition) or something a newly-independent horse would seek and acquire themselves, finding themselves without a master in a humanoid's world.
Carwyn_Nhung 08-10-06, 09:17 PM	If you are playing 3.5 and so have the summoning issues stated, then the fact that you are still around means that you are in an exception, and so the same strange event could be what caused your awakening. One possibility was that the paladin’s deity decides to give you an opportunity to complete some quest that the paladin couldn't complete; perhaps he has to fulfil a badly worded oath? "I will not taste Arcadia's peace until the strength of [some enemy] is vanquished by that of my own." He dies prematurely, but gets let off providing you as "his own", can defeat his enemy's strength. And seen as you can't hold any weapons, how about becoming a monk! I have to say though that being some non-horse mount would be a lot easier! But perhaps that is part of the fun of the character, and nothing else might be allowed anyway.