Explaining a Low Charisma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Explaining a Low Charisma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MakeUse
10-22-07, 11:20 AM My whisper gnome ranger/scout has a 6 Cha, 14 Int, and a 14 Wis.

Some of the other players in my group are convinced that all individuals with a low charisma must be ugly, smell bad, or have disgusting habits.

But I think that there are defintely other explanations for having a low charisma. Personally, I imagine my character as an extremelly anti-social, slightly rude, and reclusive individual. But I am looking for help defending my case.

Any suggestions about how to explain a low charisma would be appreciated.

Thanks,

-MakeUse
CrimsonDeath
10-22-07, 01:39 PM According to Races of Stone, the justification for their low charisma is that "their quiet nature also leads to a lack of personal presence". That sounds closer to what you're going for than what your friends have suggested.
JulesCARV
10-22-07, 01:55 PM I think that it's up to you. Your character could be ugly, disgusting, and smelly, or could be shy, reclusive, and antisocial, or could be obnoxious, abrasive, invasive of people's personal space, and improper. It's your character, so I think that ought to be your call.
jonasdrieghe
10-24-07, 04:38 AM misanthropy is always a nice hook to explain a low charisma

your character might also have some annoying traits while in conversation and, considering his high intelligence, might be quite literate and outrageously cynical in every word he says. just try and look around you and find some people you DON'T like to talk to. try and find out why and use those characteristics ...
albinomonkeyking
10-24-07, 12:52 PM It's more of a DM call IMO. My DM plays with comeliness, more or less a number for how attractive you are which is modified by your CHA. In your case it would be lowered, but that is in our games.

I would discuss it with your DM, in my opinion it does mean you are ugly, but I ain't in your game.

Anyway, Cha is force of personality in various meanings of, that is to say your character will be rather lacking in that. People will probably have a tendency to ignore what you say, if they even notice it at all. Because of how you speak (rude or not) your words lack convictions, your ideas lack confidence, whatever it is that public speakers have you don't.

Like with most stats, having a low Cha is in no way 'cool', it won't just make you quiet or rude. 'My character is a kind of a to-himself jerk, you know like Vegeta. Oh and I have a 4 Cha.' It doesn't really work like that. You can make him a jerk, but that won't affect much. The low Cha doesn't make you a jerk, it simply makes you detestable or invisible. That isn't to say some people won't like you until they get to know you, it literally means that there is no getting to know you, you are just that, unlikeable. The primary focus should be that people just generally ignore or dislike you.
Kalai_Eljahn
10-24-07, 02:56 PM Mm, I disagree that it's impossible to get to know and like someone with a low Charisma. (Consider some low-CHA pets, such as snakes or ravens/parrots.) Instead, I think others might like you in spite of your low Charisma score.

If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but...

A tendency for people to dislike or ignore you does make sense however.
CrimsonDeath
10-24-07, 05:53 PM If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but...

What about your esteem for everybody else?
Kalai_Eljahn
10-24-07, 06:22 PM What about your esteem for everybody else?

I guess you can fake that, or a good self-esteem includes it.
BadOmen
10-24-07, 07:29 PM For someone with the scores you quoted, I'd tend to think of someone with poor social graces. Perhaps he has an opinion about everything... any time anyone in the party is discussing something, he injects himself into the conversation.

Perhaps he's a compulsive liar as well, who's always done X before, or done it twice, or better than everyone else.

On the flip side, maybe he's a mumbler. Quite smart, but lacks the confidence or ability to speak up. As such, people become annoyed or irritated with him because it's so hard to communicate with him.

Maybe he's a push-over. Or just has that special something that tends to irritate others, or makes them instantly dislike him.

I do prefer to actively play someone with low charisma, and give people a reason to feel that way about the char, as opposed to having the DM just 'make' everyone dislike him.

BadOmen
Terjon of the Blue Rose
10-25-07, 12:49 AM I personally like the idea of playing attractive individuals with low charisma. It happens all the time in the real world. How many movie stars, models, and sports players are total jerks. For that matter how many high school age kids fit that description. It's easy to have a horrid personality when you feel like you can take advantage of others just because you fit some physical ideal. Just because others want to be around you doesn't mean you want to be around them or will be a decent person.
CrimsonDeath
10-25-07, 01:29 AM Being a jerk isn't necessarily a result of low Charisma, nor vice versa. Note that Intimidate is Charisma-based.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
10-25-07, 01:54 AM Isn't neccessarily but can be. In my experience most people who use intimidate practice it. They have skill ranks rather than relying on a natural ability. Besides since when is intimidation the only way to be a jerk.
albinomonkeyking
10-25-07, 12:55 PM I personally like the idea of playing attractive individuals with low charisma. It happens all the time in the real world. How many movie stars, models, and sports players are total jerks. For that matter how many high school age kids fit that description. It's easy to have a horrid personality when you feel like you can take advantage of others just because you fit some physical ideal. Just because others want to be around you doesn't mean you want to be around them or will be a decent person.

But that is what I am saying, a low charisma does not make you a jerk. It just determines whether or not anyone actually gives a hoot what you have to say. Movie stars would probably all have high charismas because no matter what they say people care, for some inexplicable reason. It is probably linked to the fact that most people think they are hot, (attractiveness) giving credit to the idea that high Cha is linked with appearance. Like it or not, people care more about what an attractive person says or does than anything your average joe does.

Mm, I disagree that it's impossible to get to know and like someone with a low Charisma. (Consider some low-CHA pets, such as snakes or ravens/parrots.) Instead, I think others might like you in spite of your low Charisma score.

If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but...

A tendency for people to dislike or ignore you does make sense however.

That is sort of what I meant, although I may have come off confusing, sometimes I do that. A character with a low Int can be your best friend in a game, but you shouldn't like him because of his low int (as in, haha, he says dumb things, cool) but despite his low int, you still find him a good person. I just think it's silly when someone tries to make a bad stat a good thing, you can overcome the bad stat, but it will always be that, bad.

It should be the same with Cha. A low Cha person is generally an unlikeable person. If your character likes them then your character is very kind, or sees something in them, any number of reasons, but the point is the average person won't like the PC, in fact, almost no one will like - or at least notice - the PC.

A snake can be ugly, have no personality, and yet the owner loves it. Why? Sometimes it is just an odd, unreasonable attraction. It could work the same way with a PC, but, it usually doesn't.
BadOmen
10-25-07, 01:33 PM ABK, I'd agree that someone with low Cha is unlikable, but there's a difference between not liking someone and disliking someone.

Someone with a low Cha could easily be a wall-flower, or someone who is easily forgettable, just as easily as someone that people naturally dislike.
CrimsonDeath
10-25-07, 03:12 PM But that is what I am saying, a low charisma does not make you a jerk. It just determines whether or not anyone actually gives a hoot what you have to say. Movie stars would probably all have high charismas because no matter what they say people care, for some inexplicable reason. It is probably linked to the fact that most people think they are hot, (attractiveness) giving credit to the idea that high Cha is linked with appearance. Like it or not, people care more about what an attractive person says or does than anything your average joe does.

But to a certain degree, they can cover that up with feats. Not very pretty? Disguise (or get a hireling to do it). A lot of them will dump ranks into various Perform skills, maybe even take Skill Focus (Perform (whatever)). A high Charisma will give them an advantage to start out with, but that can be overcome (to a certain degree) by training. As for why average people pay attention to them, some people are simply famous for being famous, or famous because their parents were famous, not necessarily because of any capabilities or talents inherent to the person in question. (I'm sure we can all name some ugly or talentless actors-- and perhaps even one or two with both qualities.)

It should be the same with Cha. A low Cha person is generally an unlikeable person. If your character likes them then your character is very kind, or sees something in them, any number of reasons, but the point is the average person won't like the PC, in fact, almost no one will like - or at least notice - the PC.

Charisma isn't about being attractive or likable. It's about imposing your will. Someone who's uglier than dirt but gets people's attention and makes them do what he says could have a very high Charisma, while an absolutely gorgeous person who does whatever he's told could have a very low Charisma.
albinomonkeyking
10-25-07, 04:34 PM Charisma isn't about being attractive or likable. It's about imposing your will. Someone who's uglier than dirt but gets people's attention and makes them do what he says could have a very high Charisma, while an absolutely gorgeous person who does whatever he's told could have a very low Charisma.

Charisma can be about attractiveness, it says so in PHB and it is up to DM interpretation, so I will put that aside. It is about force of personality. People may not dislike you but they won't notice you. What you say will be unimportant or uninteresting, even if it is in fact both important and interesting. The way you speak, your body language, and everything about you would scream that you are to be ignored and disregarded, perhaps because you come off as annoying (dislikeable). It is why when you lie people won't believe you (bluff). Why when you try to convince someone of your point they ignore you (diplomacy). You can't talk to people to get information because they don't care about you are what you want (gather information). You could even be a 7 foot monster but unable to scare a barkeep because you just don't have the force of presence to do so (intimidate).

As you pointed out, all of these things can be achieved to great success despite a low charisma, but it will be harder, because your character naturally is not those things, he has to train himself much harder. (I am also aware of the variation to intimidate using strength, but I am going by original rulings).

The point is, if someone ignores your diplomacy it can be for a number of reasons, including that they might not know why, but they just dislike you. How many reasons can a DM come up with for why people ignore everything you say? Being ugly would be a reason. But a low Cha is not a supernatural ability, it is not as if screaming at a guard would illicit no response because he just 'doesn't care'. There has to be an explanation for why no one cares, such as inexplicably, they dislike you. It is not always hand in hand, but I think you can admit it would make sense sometimes.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
10-25-07, 11:16 PM I think the point is agreed upon if not from the same point of view. Ugly almost surely is a detraction from charisma. Despite this some ugly people have very high social skills. They train themselves in them in order to make up for their lack of natural desirability. This is represented in skill points spent and feats taken. Attractive people get a benefit to charisma. Those who are devoid of tact or have otherwise deplorable social skills get a penalty or at the very least do not advance beyond their starting bonuses.

The point however is that the two are not neccessarily tied together. That there can be a charismatic yet ugly individual. Think through the list of stand-up comedians through the years. Many are charismatic because of their less-than-pleasant mugs. At the same time a person who is attractive need not be highly charismatic. Think now on the classic weak-willed individuals. They often, either intentionally or not, will hide from attention. They will dress in such a way as to least accentuate their appearance and speak only in mild tones. Alternatively they may drive away others with their mannerisms or speech.

In the end the argument comes down to this for me. Charisma is a mental stat in the game. Therefore there is no direct tie to beauty. True its not neccessarilly the most accurate outlook on how the world reacts to people but it is the simplest way of ruling things in the game.
meto30
10-26-07, 03:40 AM Low Charisma and High Intelligence.

Why does this remind me of Dr. House?

"Everybody Lies"
Talaisan
10-26-07, 11:01 AM Low Charisma and High Intelligence.

Why does this remind me of Dr. House?

"Everybody Lies"

You, sir, win the internet.
Zeffienes
10-27-07, 12:53 AM I would love an explanation of how you can improve your charisma if it were based off of looks alone. In otherwords, once you hit that 4th level do you become more... likeable?
Crash169
10-29-07, 12:58 AM I like to think that Charisma has two independent parts.

Physical Charisma
and
Social Charisma

I wouldn't know how to work it out in-game. I guess you would need two separate charisma scores.

If anything, tell them that your pretty, but socially handicapped.
CrimsonDeath
10-29-07, 02:36 AM I see two major problems in splitting Charisma into two scores:

1- Classes that don't use spells or special abilites based on Charisma and don't need social skills (from Barbarians to Wizards) get another dump stat.

2- Classes that do use spells or special abilities based on Charisma and do need social skills (Bards are the big one here) suffer from additional multiple attribute dependency.

So, either Barbarians and Wizards get stronger, or Bards get weaker, or possibly both.
Outsider Subtype
10-29-07, 02:01 PM Some other options for low charisma characters:

Hopelessly naive ("Why is the king mad at us? I mean, if I were being a horrible tyrant, I would want to know about it!")

Know it all/pedantic ("The charter only allows reimbursement in cases of accidental damage. You would know this if you had been paying attention at the last guild meeting.")

Intelligent, yet boring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html)

Oneupsmanship (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/guy_at_bar_had_similar)
Uberwoot
10-29-07, 03:31 PM Hopelessly naive ("Why is the king mad at us? I mean, if I were being a horrible tyrant, I would want to know about it!")

I believe that is actually an example of low wisdom rather than low charisma.

On a side note, this entire thread is hilarious.

/woot
Outsider Subtype
10-29-07, 04:20 PM I believe that is actually an example of low wisdom rather than low charisma.

You're right, replace naive with tactless and it works though.
meto30
10-30-07, 01:01 AM Sturbonness, funny dialect, dimunitive body, ugly face, untidy hair, twitching fingers, obsession, shyness, rudeness. All these would account to low respectability of the character, which I interpret as Charisma. A dragon has high charisma because it is respected. It is fearful. It is smart. It is strong. It is large. All this make the dragon instantly respected. But humans can be respected through political power, shows of wealth, polite conversation, intricate knowledge, physical attractiveness, and martial prowess. I know that all these are not 'instantly recognizable' as charisma is supposed to be, but this is how I run my game. Thus, when one of my characters have a bad hair day coupled with some tactless responses, I give them a secret -2 disadvantage to charisma, which is removed as soon as they gain their respectability back.
JulesCARV
10-30-07, 01:40 AM I think that if I were to mess with D&D's ability system, I'd much sooner split wisdom into willpower and perception than I would split charisma into physical and social aspects. Willpower would then become the ability score which governed most spellcasting not governed by intelligence, such as cleric and sorcerer spellcasting. Perception would be for listen, sense motive, maybe search, etc, and charisma would continue to be for diplomacy, bluff, etc. Willpower would also govern will saves and maybe concentration checks.

It would wreck havoc with balance, but it's what makes most sense to me.
Terjon of the Blue Rose
10-31-07, 11:42 PM You could always go back to sub-abilities.

Way it worked was you'd pick your stats as normal. Then you'd have 2 subabilities for each (wisdom/perception aim/balance beauty/sociability etc) You could raise any one by up to 2 at the cost of lower its counterpart by the same.

For example a bard might have a 16 CHA with a 18 beauty and a 14 sociability. His Cha skills by and large ran off the 14 but people's initial reactions were to his beauty. The 16 worked for all game stats like spellcasting and the like.

Of course Cha is the one it works worst with since beauty really wouldn't affect any skills but rather only straight Cha checks and how the world reacts to your character on the most superficial levels.
Boatlightschan
11-01-07, 10:27 AM Some of the other players in my group are convinced that all individuals with a low charisma must be ugly, smell bad, or have disgusting habits.

You could always just roll with it and use it to your advantage. Whenever some situation comes up where the group needs you, say you can't because you smell bad and your enemies are downwind or something similar. There's no point in trying to explain something to people if they won't listen anyway.
Myers
11-01-07, 10:41 AM Charisma is defined as "force of personality" when someone with high CHA says something, people listen. I always viewed low cha more like Milton from office space, possibly stutters, perhaps just doesn't really have the guts to talk or when someone else says anything he quiets down.

High int low cha, means he may have a plan to save the world, and everyone just says "yeah whatever, anyway we gotta come up with a plan here"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MakeUse 10-22-07, 11:20 AM	My whisper gnome ranger/scout has a 6 Cha, 14 Int, and a 14 Wis. Some of the other players in my group are convinced that all individuals with a low charisma must be ugly, smell bad, or have disgusting habits. But I think that there are defintely other explanations for having a low charisma. Personally, I imagine my character as an extremelly anti-social, slightly rude, and reclusive individual. But I am looking for help defending my case. Any suggestions about how to explain a low charisma would be appreciated. Thanks, -MakeUse
CrimsonDeath 10-22-07, 01:39 PM	According to Races of Stone, the justification for their low charisma is that "their quiet nature also leads to a lack of personal presence". That sounds closer to what you're going for than what your friends have suggested.
JulesCARV 10-22-07, 01:55 PM	I think that it's up to you. Your character could be ugly, disgusting, and smelly, or could be shy, reclusive, and antisocial, or could be obnoxious, abrasive, invasive of people's personal space, and improper. It's your character, so I think that ought to be your call.
jonasdrieghe 10-24-07, 04:38 AM	misanthropy is always a nice hook to explain a low charisma your character might also have some annoying traits while in conversation and, considering his high intelligence, might be quite literate and outrageously cynical in every word he says. just try and look around you and find some people you DON'T like to talk to. try and find out why and use those characteristics ...
albinomonkeyking 10-24-07, 12:52 PM	It's more of a DM call IMO. My DM plays with comeliness, more or less a number for how attractive you are which is modified by your CHA. In your case it would be lowered, but that is in our games. I would discuss it with your DM, in my opinion it does mean you are ugly, but I ain't in your game. Anyway, Cha is force of personality in various meanings of, that is to say your character will be rather lacking in that. People will probably have a tendency to ignore what you say, if they even notice it at all. Because of how you speak (rude or not) your words lack convictions, your ideas lack confidence, whatever it is that public speakers have you don't. Like with most stats, having a low Cha is in no way 'cool', it won't just make you quiet or rude. 'My character is a kind of a to-himself jerk, you know like Vegeta. Oh and I have a 4 Cha.' It doesn't really work like that. You can make him a jerk, but that won't affect much. The low Cha doesn't make you a jerk, it simply makes you detestable or invisible. That isn't to say some people won't like you until they get to know you, it literally means that there is no getting to know you, you are just that, unlikeable. The primary focus should be that people just generally ignore or dislike you.
Kalai_Eljahn 10-24-07, 02:56 PM	Mm, I disagree that it's impossible to get to know and like someone with a low Charisma. (Consider some low-CHA pets, such as snakes or ravens/parrots.) Instead, I think others might like you in spite of your low Charisma score. If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but... A tendency for people to dislike or ignore you does make sense however.
CrimsonDeath 10-24-07, 05:53 PM	If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but... What about your esteem for everybody else?
Kalai_Eljahn 10-24-07, 06:22 PM	What about your esteem for everybody else? I guess you can fake that, or a good self-esteem includes it.
BadOmen 10-24-07, 07:29 PM	For someone with the scores you quoted, I'd tend to think of someone with poor social graces. Perhaps he has an opinion about everything... any time anyone in the party is discussing something, he injects himself into the conversation. Perhaps he's a compulsive liar as well, who's always done X before, or done it twice, or better than everyone else. On the flip side, maybe he's a mumbler. Quite smart, but lacks the confidence or ability to speak up. As such, people become annoyed or irritated with him because it's so hard to communicate with him. Maybe he's a push-over. Or just has that special something that tends to irritate others, or makes them instantly dislike him. I do prefer to actively play someone with low charisma, and give people a reason to feel that way about the char, as opposed to having the DM just 'make' everyone dislike him. BadOmen
Terjon of the Blue Rose 10-25-07, 12:49 AM	I personally like the idea of playing attractive individuals with low charisma. It happens all the time in the real world. How many movie stars, models, and sports players are total jerks. For that matter how many high school age kids fit that description. It's easy to have a horrid personality when you feel like you can take advantage of others just because you fit some physical ideal. Just because others want to be around you doesn't mean you want to be around them or will be a decent person.
CrimsonDeath 10-25-07, 01:29 AM	Being a jerk isn't necessarily a result of low Charisma, nor vice versa. Note that Intimidate is Charisma-based.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 10-25-07, 01:54 AM	Isn't neccessarily but can be. In my experience most people who use intimidate practice it. They have skill ranks rather than relying on a natural ability. Besides since when is intimidation the only way to be a jerk.
albinomonkeyking 10-25-07, 12:55 PM	I personally like the idea of playing attractive individuals with low charisma. It happens all the time in the real world. How many movie stars, models, and sports players are total jerks. For that matter how many high school age kids fit that description. It's easy to have a horrid personality when you feel like you can take advantage of others just because you fit some physical ideal. Just because others want to be around you doesn't mean you want to be around them or will be a decent person. But that is what I am saying, a low charisma does not make you a jerk. It just determines whether or not anyone actually gives a hoot what you have to say. Movie stars would probably all have high charismas because no matter what they say people care, for some inexplicable reason. It is probably linked to the fact that most people think they are hot, (attractiveness) giving credit to the idea that high Cha is linked with appearance. Like it or not, people care more about what an attractive person says or does than anything your average joe does. Mm, I disagree that it's impossible to get to know and like someone with a low Charisma. (Consider some low-CHA pets, such as snakes or ravens/parrots.) Instead, I think others might like you in spite of your low Charisma score. If I'm to believe my health class a good CHA score equals high self-esteem...a little questionable but... A tendency for people to dislike or ignore you does make sense however. That is sort of what I meant, although I may have come off confusing, sometimes I do that. A character with a low Int can be your best friend in a game, but you shouldn't like him because of his low int (as in, haha, he says dumb things, cool) but despite his low int, you still find him a good person. I just think it's silly when someone tries to make a bad stat a good thing, you can overcome the bad stat, but it will always be that, bad. It should be the same with Cha. A low Cha person is generally an unlikeable person. If your character likes them then your character is very kind, or sees something in them, any number of reasons, but the point is the average person won't like the PC, in fact, almost no one will like - or at least notice - the PC. A snake can be ugly, have no personality, and yet the owner loves it. Why? Sometimes it is just an odd, unreasonable attraction. It could work the same way with a PC, but, it usually doesn't.
BadOmen 10-25-07, 01:33 PM	ABK, I'd agree that someone with low Cha is unlikable, but there's a difference between not liking someone and disliking someone. Someone with a low Cha could easily be a wall-flower, or someone who is easily forgettable, just as easily as someone that people naturally dislike.
CrimsonDeath 10-25-07, 03:12 PM	But that is what I am saying, a low charisma does not make you a jerk. It just determines whether or not anyone actually gives a hoot what you have to say. Movie stars would probably all have high charismas because no matter what they say people care, for some inexplicable reason. It is probably linked to the fact that most people think they are hot, (attractiveness) giving credit to the idea that high Cha is linked with appearance. Like it or not, people care more about what an attractive person says or does than anything your average joe does. But to a certain degree, they can cover that up with feats. Not very pretty? Disguise (or get a hireling to do it). A lot of them will dump ranks into various Perform skills, maybe even take Skill Focus (Perform (whatever)). A high Charisma will give them an advantage to start out with, but that can be overcome (to a certain degree) by training. As for why average people pay attention to them, some people are simply famous for being famous, or famous because their parents were famous, not necessarily because of any capabilities or talents inherent to the person in question. (I'm sure we can all name some ugly or talentless actors-- and perhaps even one or two with both qualities.) It should be the same with Cha. A low Cha person is generally an unlikeable person. If your character likes them then your character is very kind, or sees something in them, any number of reasons, but the point is the average person won't like the PC, in fact, almost no one will like - or at least notice - the PC. Charisma isn't about being attractive or likable. It's about imposing your will. Someone who's uglier than dirt but gets people's attention and makes them do what he says could have a very high Charisma, while an absolutely gorgeous person who does whatever he's told could have a very low Charisma.
albinomonkeyking 10-25-07, 04:34 PM	Charisma isn't about being attractive or likable. It's about imposing your will. Someone who's uglier than dirt but gets people's attention and makes them do what he says could have a very high Charisma, while an absolutely gorgeous person who does whatever he's told could have a very low Charisma. Charisma can be about attractiveness, it says so in PHB and it is up to DM interpretation, so I will put that aside. It is about force of personality. People may not dislike you but they won't notice you. What you say will be unimportant or uninteresting, even if it is in fact both important and interesting. The way you speak, your body language, and everything about you would scream that you are to be ignored and disregarded, perhaps because you come off as annoying (dislikeable). It is why when you lie people won't believe you (bluff). Why when you try to convince someone of your point they ignore you (diplomacy). You can't talk to people to get information because they don't care about you are what you want (gather information). You could even be a 7 foot monster but unable to scare a barkeep because you just don't have the force of presence to do so (intimidate). As you pointed out, all of these things can be achieved to great success despite a low charisma, but it will be harder, because your character naturally is not those things, he has to train himself much harder. (I am also aware of the variation to intimidate using strength, but I am going by original rulings). The point is, if someone ignores your diplomacy it can be for a number of reasons, including that they might not know why, but they just dislike you. How many reasons can a DM come up with for why people ignore everything you say? Being ugly would be a reason. But a low Cha is not a supernatural ability, it is not as if screaming at a guard would illicit no response because he just 'doesn't care'. There has to be an explanation for why no one cares, such as inexplicably, they dislike you. It is not always hand in hand, but I think you can admit it would make sense sometimes.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 10-25-07, 11:16 PM	I think the point is agreed upon if not from the same point of view. Ugly almost surely is a detraction from charisma. Despite this some ugly people have very high social skills. They train themselves in them in order to make up for their lack of natural desirability. This is represented in skill points spent and feats taken. Attractive people get a benefit to charisma. Those who are devoid of tact or have otherwise deplorable social skills get a penalty or at the very least do not advance beyond their starting bonuses. The point however is that the two are not neccessarily tied together. That there can be a charismatic yet ugly individual. Think through the list of stand-up comedians through the years. Many are charismatic because of their less-than-pleasant mugs. At the same time a person who is attractive need not be highly charismatic. Think now on the classic weak-willed individuals. They often, either intentionally or not, will hide from attention. They will dress in such a way as to least accentuate their appearance and speak only in mild tones. Alternatively they may drive away others with their mannerisms or speech. In the end the argument comes down to this for me. Charisma is a mental stat in the game. Therefore there is no direct tie to beauty. True its not neccessarilly the most accurate outlook on how the world reacts to people but it is the simplest way of ruling things in the game.
meto30 10-26-07, 03:40 AM	Low Charisma and High Intelligence. Why does this remind me of Dr. House? "Everybody Lies"
Talaisan 10-26-07, 11:01 AM	Low Charisma and High Intelligence. Why does this remind me of Dr. House? "Everybody Lies" You, sir, win the internet.
Zeffienes 10-27-07, 12:53 AM	I would love an explanation of how you can improve your charisma if it were based off of looks alone. In otherwords, once you hit that 4th level do you become more... likeable?
Crash169 10-29-07, 12:58 AM	I like to think that Charisma has two independent parts. Physical Charisma and Social Charisma I wouldn't know how to work it out in-game. I guess you would need two separate charisma scores. If anything, tell them that your pretty, but socially handicapped.
CrimsonDeath 10-29-07, 02:36 AM	I see two major problems in splitting Charisma into two scores: 1- Classes that don't use spells or special abilites based on Charisma and don't need social skills (from Barbarians to Wizards) get another dump stat. 2- Classes that do use spells or special abilities based on Charisma and do need social skills (Bards are the big one here) suffer from additional multiple attribute dependency. So, either Barbarians and Wizards get stronger, or Bards get weaker, or possibly both.
Outsider Subtype 10-29-07, 02:01 PM	Some other options for low charisma characters: Hopelessly naive ("Why is the king mad at us? I mean, if I were being a horrible tyrant, I would want to know about it!") Know it all/pedantic ("The charter only allows reimbursement in cases of accidental damage. You would know this if you had been paying attention at the last guild meeting.") Intelligent, yet boring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html) Oneupsmanship (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/guy_at_bar_had_similar)
Uberwoot 10-29-07, 03:31 PM	Hopelessly naive ("Why is the king mad at us? I mean, if I were being a horrible tyrant, I would want to know about it!") I believe that is actually an example of low wisdom rather than low charisma. On a side note, this entire thread is hilarious. /woot
Outsider Subtype 10-29-07, 04:20 PM	I believe that is actually an example of low wisdom rather than low charisma. You're right, replace naive with tactless and it works though.
meto30 10-30-07, 01:01 AM	Sturbonness, funny dialect, dimunitive body, ugly face, untidy hair, twitching fingers, obsession, shyness, rudeness. All these would account to low respectability of the character, which I interpret as Charisma. A dragon has high charisma because it is respected. It is fearful. It is smart. It is strong. It is large. All this make the dragon instantly respected. But humans can be respected through political power, shows of wealth, polite conversation, intricate knowledge, physical attractiveness, and martial prowess. I know that all these are not 'instantly recognizable' as charisma is supposed to be, but this is how I run my game. Thus, when one of my characters have a bad hair day coupled with some tactless responses, I give them a secret -2 disadvantage to charisma, which is removed as soon as they gain their respectability back.
JulesCARV 10-30-07, 01:40 AM	I think that if I were to mess with D&D's ability system, I'd much sooner split wisdom into willpower and perception than I would split charisma into physical and social aspects. Willpower would then become the ability score which governed most spellcasting not governed by intelligence, such as cleric and sorcerer spellcasting. Perception would be for listen, sense motive, maybe search, etc, and charisma would continue to be for diplomacy, bluff, etc. Willpower would also govern will saves and maybe concentration checks. It would wreck havoc with balance, but it's what makes most sense to me.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 10-31-07, 11:42 PM	You could always go back to sub-abilities. Way it worked was you'd pick your stats as normal. Then you'd have 2 subabilities for each (wisdom/perception aim/balance beauty/sociability etc) You could raise any one by up to 2 at the cost of lower its counterpart by the same. For example a bard might have a 16 CHA with a 18 beauty and a 14 sociability. His Cha skills by and large ran off the 14 but people's initial reactions were to his beauty. The 16 worked for all game stats like spellcasting and the like. Of course Cha is the one it works worst with since beauty really wouldn't affect any skills but rather only straight Cha checks and how the world reacts to your character on the most superficial levels.
Boatlightschan 11-01-07, 10:27 AM	Some of the other players in my group are convinced that all individuals with a low charisma must be ugly, smell bad, or have disgusting habits. You could always just roll with it and use it to your advantage. Whenever some situation comes up where the group needs you, say you can't because you smell bad and your enemies are downwind or something similar. There's no point in trying to explain something to people if they won't listen anyway.
Myers 11-01-07, 10:41 AM	Charisma is defined as "force of personality" when someone with high CHA says something, people listen. I always viewed low cha more like Milton from office space, possibly stutters, perhaps just doesn't really have the guts to talk or when someone else says anything he quiets down. High int low cha, means he may have a plan to save the world, and everyone just says "yeah whatever, anyway we gotta come up with a plan here"