Faithful Duos: Clerics and Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Faithful Duos: Clerics and Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
camirblu
12-26-06, 08:44 PM This is just worth saying.

Clerics can be powerhouses, but sometimes there isn't enough said about their combat-in-arms, the paladin. Paladins are oft the overlooked heroes of the two. A cleric works well, but they can work better with a paladin at their side.

Paladins cover the areas clerics can't, and take up the slack when clerics are bent over and wheezing from strong efforts. They direct the fight towards the strongest enemies, keep creatures busy so the cleric can turn and cast. With strong AC, saves, and fighting powers, paladins are made for the thick of combat. With smite evil, detect evil, and their tendency to negate fear they're an excellent martial contribution against enemies of faith.

A paladin is stronger for the bull's strength the cleric grants him or her, and the cleric is stronger for the strength and leadership the paladin brings to melee. Their abilities overlap just enough they can aid when one runs short: healing, fear reduction, and turning...and the cleric's AC isn't as bad, either, when it needs to be.

And that's just the mechanics side of it.

When it comes to roleplay, each class brings a distinct perspective to their faith and their role within it. Neither one is completely separate; they remain interlocked to varying degrees. It's a unique spice given to RP when done well. It's also a strong drive that can lend purpose to a party. Or, the tension, if the cleric, who tends to have less of a code of honor, has to handle the "more soiled" parts of the faith from time to time... Sometimes it's the paladin who ends up keeping the cleric on the straight and narrow.

So...here's to paladins and the people who play them. Yes, there are the "holier than thou" stick up the ..., but when played well and cooperatively, paladins and clerics are a strong duo. I'd love to see more of them...and hell, just offer support to a sometimes maligned class and group of RPers.

This was written with three paladin players in particular in mind. Your cleric thinks alot of y'.
Stormbrand
12-27-06, 05:06 PM Holier than thou stick up... players are those least qualified to be a paladin. Remember, any paladin is a trained warrior, and thus a tactician - decoy and ambush and even battlefield assassination are valid parts of the strategic arsenal, there is no question of honour involved.

I would have loved the chance for my paladin to RP off a cleric in the party, but that campaign never ended up doing so. Just the side of having a comrade with a similar interest in morality, and so I'm not "spoiling fun" when I intervene with evil acts from other PCs (read: rogue murdering a maid who stumbled across us in the enemy stronghold on the grounds that she could expose us, the other PCs wouldn't "let" me kill him).

A cleric of a different faith would be interesting as well, simply due to the difference in moral thinking. A Heartwarder alongside the Helmite Watchword would be fun.
camirblu
12-27-06, 06:11 PM I've had some great experiences as a duo (my post probably shows it), but it depends alot on the players involved...and those players having similar interpretations of the rulesets and concepts beforehand. Sounds as though there were a few differences of opinion by your description.

As for decoy and ambush, maybe it's yes and no. They're shady areas depending on how they're played, and one of the more challenging things when it comes to playing a paladin. Really, I don't know how paladin players do it.

I'm going to have to disagree with some of your thoughts there, though, respectfully, but that's just playing style. For me, a paladin would almost always have to accept someone's word of honor they wouldn't do it again...a cleric, not so much (depending on faith). There, one of the areas a cleric might be able to handle that their paladin couldn't.

And one of the many ways a paladin can strive to be even that shining beacon for the cleric. In other words, not only do they "take up the slack" for one another, they can also remind the other where their faith lies, just by fulfilling their roles.

That's just one style, though.
Stormbrand
12-28-06, 02:21 PM Sometimes trickery is needed to make decoy or ambush fully effective, which is where the shady part comes in. But a paladin should be thinking of high ground, terrain, cover, flanking, choke points, ranged support, formations and so on. My DM really hated the fact that I used tactics. Just remember, the concept of a "fair" fight belongs to the Knight class, the paladin code covers other things.

I don't understand why a paladin would have to accept the word of honour of someone who had no qualms about killing a defenceless woman civilian openly. That seems a very soft mindset for a paladin, it borders too close to turning a blind eye to evil and the harm of innocents.

In your mind, how do paladins achieve being that shining beacon?

The splendid feature of paladins is their ability to outlast things, with tank armour, defensive spells, immunities, divine grace and healing abilities the main strength of paladins is their resilience.

And the really cool part of being a paladin is being able to smite one round and then cure a wound or illness the next. In teamwork with clerics, a cleric boosting up himself can be the equal of a fighter in melee, so imagine if he buffs the paladin.
OneWinged4ngel
12-28-06, 03:44 PM And the really cool part of being a paladin is being able to smite one round and then cure a wound or illness the next. In teamwork with clerics, a cleric boosting up himself can be the equal of a fighter in melee, so imagine if he buffs the paladin.

Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only." Also, spending a round curing something as the Paladin really doesn't work... since he cures so very little as to be basically negligible at most levels. He can really only cure out of combat, or maybe a single burst heal with Lay on Hands (preferably with something like "Action Healing" to quicken it)

The Cleric, also, can basically totally overshadow the paladin in everything he does. He can even smite more times per day than the paladin, since certain spells (like Visage of the Deity) grant him smites. Divine Grace doesn't significantly set the paladin ahead in saves, either. The Cleric's Will will certainly be better, and other saves will be close (and you can boost them with the cleric's powerful spells, of course). And the Cleric can definitely match the pally in melee, and outlast him as far as durability goes. He even gets a better ability to tank thanks to some particularly useful spells.

The Paladin is pretty much one of the most nova oriented classes in the game, though unlike such classes as the Wizard or Psion his novas aren't quite so impressive. He can be one of the most effective core melee combatants (not saying a whole lot, honestly), provided there's one or two encounters a day. He'll get one burst heal / undead kill out of Lay on Hands, he'll get a few empowered attacks (which can be put into supercharges, especially with things like Rhino Rush and Charging Smite), and he'll blow all of his spells real fast. On top of that, he's only got a very few spells to choose from, since many of the spells he gets are pretty much irrelevant at the level he gets them.

'course, I tried to fix that with the Rebalanced Paladin in my sig.
Devlonir
12-29-06, 04:16 AM I think you are forgetting one thing here, the Paladin's mount. If you choose a special mount, like for example a Dire Lion, at the appropriate level, it can be stronger then anything the Cleric can Summon.
Also, if the Paladin and Cleric work together, the Cleric can also buff the Paladin's mount and himself and you will have 3 strong melee combatants with enough healing power to stick out in the front line. With a Paladin and a combat oriented cleric, you don't need anything else in the front line. The rest of the party can be ranged combatants (rogues at 30 feet with improved precise shot to make awesome sneak attacks each round, or arcane archers with a lot of sorcerer levels to abuse the imbue arrow power) or arcane spellcasters and will be well protected by these 3 tanks in the front line. (more even if the cleric and/or another caster summons something)

We play often with a party of 5 adventurers and one campaign had a party like this, we easilly beat challenges of an ECL up to two or three more then our average level, even if they had the advantage.
mkill
01-01-07, 12:51 PM Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only."

The paladin does not need them, he already has full BAB, and if he wants to be enlarged he can ask the wizard... But there are still enough spells for the cleric to cast on your paladin friend, especially at low levels, if you don't see any you are not trying hard enough.

In fact, a high-level cleric will be busy filling the role of a full spellcaster and only wade into melee in emergencies, contrary to the paladin, who is a frontline tank with some augmental spellcasting through the whole of his career.

On a different note, an aspect I am still missing in this thread is, that clerics come in more flavors than lawful good and other professions than holy warrior. In a way, the paladin takes one aspect of the cleric and magnifies it, with a much heavier emphasis on melee combat. A cleric of a deity of love, peace and music will have a very different world view from the paladin, while a lawful good cleric of pelor could almost be indistinguishable from one.
Timespike
01-03-07, 01:24 AM Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only." Also, spending a round curing something as the Paladin really doesn't work... since he cures so very little as to be basically negligible at most levels. He can really only cure out of combat, or maybe a single burst heal with Lay on Hands (preferably with something like "Action Healing" to quicken it)

Huh? You don't need to completely heal someone as a paladin. Just use one point of lay on hands to stabilize a downed comrade and shield them from harm until the cleric, druid, or bard gets there. Pretty simple. The paladin can parse out their lay on hands ability in individual points; that's really handy for stabilizing people, staying in the fight if staggered, or other more tactical applications. This sort of thinking, incidentally, is why I consider DEX, not INT to be the paladin dump stat. A paladin should be smart, not just noble and valiant.

As far as boosting spells for the paladin go....

What, bless, magic weapon, protection from evil, shield of faith, aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, magic vestment, prayer, imbue with spell ability, greater magic weapon, spell resistance, foundation of stone, energized shield, iron silence, protection from negative energy, quick march, blindsight, flame of faith, ghost touch weapon, vigor, delay death, sheltered vitality, undead bane weapon, life's grace, and mantle of the icy soul (incidentally, just the highlights from the PHB & spell compendium)aren't enough for you?
OneWinged4ngel
01-05-07, 12:43 AM Huh? You don't need to completely heal someone as a paladin. Just use one point of lay on hands to stabilize a downed comrade and shield them from harm until the cleric, druid, or bard gets there. Pretty simple. The paladin can parse out their lay on hands ability in individual points; that's really handy for stabilizing people, staying in the fight if staggered, or other more tactical applications. This sort of thinking, incidentally, is why I consider DEX, not INT to be the paladin dump stat. A paladin should be smart, not just noble and valiant.

As far as boosting spells for the paladin go....

What, bless, magic weapon, protection from evil, shield of faith, aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, magic vestment, prayer, imbue with spell ability, greater magic weapon, spell resistance, foundation of stone, energized shield, iron silence, protection from negative energy, quick march, blindsight, flame of faith, ghost touch weapon, vigor, delay death, sheltered vitality, undead bane weapon, life's grace, and mantle of the icy soul (incidentally, just the highlights from the PHB & spell compendium)aren't enough for you?

You know what else can stabilize people? Level 0 spells, cheap potions, and easy skill checks. You know how often the ability to stabilize by using all your actions for the round at anything but the lowest levels is? At anything but, you'll get killed if you do that in combat, unless your DM is coddling you.

You DO need to completely heal someone, or at least significantly heal them, to even consider using up your turn healing. Otherwise, well, that person's just going to go down right away... and I don't know where you get the idea that you can just stand near an ally to protect him. People can just go around you. Even if the stabilize is something you need, it's such a minor ability as to be pretty much negligible (I just listed several other easily accessed ways to stabilize someone)

Also, the spells you've listed are pretty pitiful by comparison to, say, the cleric's ability to buff himself in combat. And furthermore, the paladin is going to have very, very few spells (more of why he's the most nova-based melee fighter around). The funny thing is that you haven't even listed the real highlights of the paladin spell list. You've forgotten things like Righteous Fury, which is going to give you a handy 50 hp and +4 strength, or Rhino Rush, which is a swift action first level spell that will give you some scary damage.

The plain fact of the matter is, the Cleric can be a better melee fighter and especially a better tank than the Paladin. He even gets more smites per day (if you don't understand why, check that spell compendium again). The incidences where the paladin does win, and only in melee and exclusively in melee (not in tanking, just melee damage output), is when there is one encounter per day, and you have access to plenty of supplements. Charging Smite, Rhino Rush, etc for hundreds of damage by level 6 or 7.

In fact, a high-level cleric will be busy filling the role of a full spellcaster and only wade into melee in emergencies, contrary to the paladin, who is a frontline tank with some augmental spellcasting through the whole of his career.

Oh, so just because the Paladin *can't* do anything else it doesn't matter that the cleric can do it better, since he'd prefer to do other things? Also, I've seen clerics wade into melee often... you're clearly biased here, since it's only your experience where they don't go in except in emergencies. After all, they are harder to kill than a paladin.

__

The idea that "paladins cover the areas clerics can't" as the OP said is wrong. Clerics can do everything paladins can do. They can heal. They can wade into melee. They can control the battlefield better. They can take more hits. They even get to smite. Of course, this is usually only the case at mid-high levels, which I know a lot of people don't have so much experience with...

So... I say that the mechanics side of it he mentioned is flawed, since Wizards decided to make clerics and druids good at everything :-p
camirblu
01-08-07, 09:30 PM that clerics come in more flavors than lawful good and other professions than holy warrior. In a way, the paladin takes one aspect of the cleric and magnifies it, with a much heavier emphasis on melee combat. A cleric of a deity of love, peace and music will have a very different world view from the paladin, while a lawful good cleric of pelor could almost be indistinguishable from one.

Much the point, and intent, of my original post. The rules come into play, but so does intent, and intent is something that can make them such a strong pair.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
camirblu 12-26-06, 08:44 PM	This is just worth saying. Clerics can be powerhouses, but sometimes there isn't enough said about their combat-in-arms, the paladin. Paladins are oft the overlooked heroes of the two. A cleric works well, but they can work better with a paladin at their side. Paladins cover the areas clerics can't, and take up the slack when clerics are bent over and wheezing from strong efforts. They direct the fight towards the strongest enemies, keep creatures busy so the cleric can turn and cast. With strong AC, saves, and fighting powers, paladins are made for the thick of combat. With smite evil, detect evil, and their tendency to negate fear they're an excellent martial contribution against enemies of faith. A paladin is stronger for the bull's strength the cleric grants him or her, and the cleric is stronger for the strength and leadership the paladin brings to melee. Their abilities overlap just enough they can aid when one runs short: healing, fear reduction, and turning...and the cleric's AC isn't as bad, either, when it needs to be. And that's just the mechanics side of it. When it comes to roleplay, each class brings a distinct perspective to their faith and their role within it. Neither one is completely separate; they remain interlocked to varying degrees. It's a unique spice given to RP when done well. It's also a strong drive that can lend purpose to a party. Or, the tension, if the cleric, who tends to have less of a code of honor, has to handle the "more soiled" parts of the faith from time to time... Sometimes it's the paladin who ends up keeping the cleric on the straight and narrow. So...here's to paladins and the people who play them. Yes, there are the "holier than thou" stick up the ..., but when played well and cooperatively, paladins and clerics are a strong duo. I'd love to see more of them...and hell, just offer support to a sometimes maligned class and group of RPers. This was written with three paladin players in particular in mind. Your cleric thinks alot of y'.
Stormbrand 12-27-06, 05:06 PM	Holier than thou stick up... players are those least qualified to be a paladin. Remember, any paladin is a trained warrior, and thus a tactician - decoy and ambush and even battlefield assassination are valid parts of the strategic arsenal, there is no question of honour involved. I would have loved the chance for my paladin to RP off a cleric in the party, but that campaign never ended up doing so. Just the side of having a comrade with a similar interest in morality, and so I'm not "spoiling fun" when I intervene with evil acts from other PCs (read: rogue murdering a maid who stumbled across us in the enemy stronghold on the grounds that she could expose us, the other PCs wouldn't "let" me kill him). A cleric of a different faith would be interesting as well, simply due to the difference in moral thinking. A Heartwarder alongside the Helmite Watchword would be fun.
camirblu 12-27-06, 06:11 PM	I've had some great experiences as a duo (my post probably shows it), but it depends alot on the players involved...and those players having similar interpretations of the rulesets and concepts beforehand. Sounds as though there were a few differences of opinion by your description. As for decoy and ambush, maybe it's yes and no. They're shady areas depending on how they're played, and one of the more challenging things when it comes to playing a paladin. Really, I don't know how paladin players do it. I'm going to have to disagree with some of your thoughts there, though, respectfully, but that's just playing style. For me, a paladin would almost always have to accept someone's word of honor they wouldn't do it again...a cleric, not so much (depending on faith). There, one of the areas a cleric might be able to handle that their paladin couldn't. And one of the many ways a paladin can strive to be even that shining beacon for the cleric. In other words, not only do they "take up the slack" for one another, they can also remind the other where their faith lies, just by fulfilling their roles. That's just one style, though.
Stormbrand 12-28-06, 02:21 PM	Sometimes trickery is needed to make decoy or ambush fully effective, which is where the shady part comes in. But a paladin should be thinking of high ground, terrain, cover, flanking, choke points, ranged support, formations and so on. My DM really hated the fact that I used tactics. Just remember, the concept of a "fair" fight belongs to the Knight class, the paladin code covers other things. I don't understand why a paladin would have to accept the word of honour of someone who had no qualms about killing a defenceless woman civilian openly. That seems a very soft mindset for a paladin, it borders too close to turning a blind eye to evil and the harm of innocents. In your mind, how do paladins achieve being that shining beacon? The splendid feature of paladins is their ability to outlast things, with tank armour, defensive spells, immunities, divine grace and healing abilities the main strength of paladins is their resilience. And the really cool part of being a paladin is being able to smite one round and then cure a wound or illness the next. In teamwork with clerics, a cleric boosting up himself can be the equal of a fighter in melee, so imagine if he buffs the paladin.
OneWinged4ngel 12-28-06, 03:44 PM	And the really cool part of being a paladin is being able to smite one round and then cure a wound or illness the next. In teamwork with clerics, a cleric boosting up himself can be the equal of a fighter in melee, so imagine if he buffs the paladin. Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only." Also, spending a round curing something as the Paladin really doesn't work... since he cures so very little as to be basically negligible at most levels. He can really only cure out of combat, or maybe a single burst heal with Lay on Hands (preferably with something like "Action Healing" to quicken it) The Cleric, also, can basically totally overshadow the paladin in everything he does. He can even smite more times per day than the paladin, since certain spells (like Visage of the Deity) grant him smites. Divine Grace doesn't significantly set the paladin ahead in saves, either. The Cleric's Will will certainly be better, and other saves will be close (and you can boost them with the cleric's powerful spells, of course). And the Cleric can definitely match the pally in melee, and outlast him as far as durability goes. He even gets a better ability to tank thanks to some particularly useful spells. The Paladin is pretty much one of the most nova oriented classes in the game, though unlike such classes as the Wizard or Psion his novas aren't quite so impressive. He can be one of the most effective core melee combatants (not saying a whole lot, honestly), provided there's one or two encounters a day. He'll get one burst heal / undead kill out of Lay on Hands, he'll get a few empowered attacks (which can be put into supercharges, especially with things like Rhino Rush and Charging Smite), and he'll blow all of his spells real fast. On top of that, he's only got a very few spells to choose from, since many of the spells he gets are pretty much irrelevant at the level he gets them. 'course, I tried to fix that with the Rebalanced Paladin in my sig.
Devlonir 12-29-06, 04:16 AM	I think you are forgetting one thing here, the Paladin's mount. If you choose a special mount, like for example a Dire Lion, at the appropriate level, it can be stronger then anything the Cleric can Summon. Also, if the Paladin and Cleric work together, the Cleric can also buff the Paladin's mount and himself and you will have 3 strong melee combatants with enough healing power to stick out in the front line. With a Paladin and a combat oriented cleric, you don't need anything else in the front line. The rest of the party can be ranged combatants (rogues at 30 feet with improved precise shot to make awesome sneak attacks each round, or arcane archers with a lot of sorcerer levels to abuse the imbue arrow power) or arcane spellcasters and will be well protected by these 3 tanks in the front line. (more even if the cleric and/or another caster summons something) We play often with a party of 5 adventurers and one campaign had a party like this, we easilly beat challenges of an ECL up to two or three more then our average level, even if they had the advantage.
mkill 01-01-07, 12:51 PM	Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only." The paladin does not need them, he already has full BAB, and if he wants to be enlarged he can ask the wizard... But there are still enough spells for the cleric to cast on your paladin friend, especially at low levels, if you don't see any you are not trying hard enough. In fact, a high-level cleric will be busy filling the role of a full spellcaster and only wade into melee in emergencies, contrary to the paladin, who is a frontline tank with some augmental spellcasting through the whole of his career. On a different note, an aspect I am still missing in this thread is, that clerics come in more flavors than lawful good and other professions than holy warrior. In a way, the paladin takes one aspect of the cleric and magnifies it, with a much heavier emphasis on melee combat. A cleric of a deity of love, peace and music will have a very different world view from the paladin, while a lawful good cleric of pelor could almost be indistinguishable from one.
Timespike 01-03-07, 01:24 AM	Too bad all those good "I can fight in melee better than everyone else" cleric spells are "Self Only." Also, spending a round curing something as the Paladin really doesn't work... since he cures so very little as to be basically negligible at most levels. He can really only cure out of combat, or maybe a single burst heal with Lay on Hands (preferably with something like "Action Healing" to quicken it) Huh? You don't need to completely heal someone as a paladin. Just use one point of lay on hands to stabilize a downed comrade and shield them from harm until the cleric, druid, or bard gets there. Pretty simple. The paladin can parse out their lay on hands ability in individual points; that's really handy for stabilizing people, staying in the fight if staggered, or other more tactical applications. This sort of thinking, incidentally, is why I consider DEX, not INT to be the paladin dump stat. A paladin should be smart, not just noble and valiant. As far as boosting spells for the paladin go.... What, bless, magic weapon, protection from evil, shield of faith, aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, magic vestment, prayer, imbue with spell ability, greater magic weapon, spell resistance, foundation of stone, energized shield, iron silence, protection from negative energy, quick march, blindsight, flame of faith, ghost touch weapon, vigor, delay death, sheltered vitality, undead bane weapon, life's grace, and mantle of the icy soul (incidentally, just the highlights from the PHB & spell compendium)aren't enough for you?
OneWinged4ngel 01-05-07, 12:43 AM	Huh? You don't need to completely heal someone as a paladin. Just use one point of lay on hands to stabilize a downed comrade and shield them from harm until the cleric, druid, or bard gets there. Pretty simple. The paladin can parse out their lay on hands ability in individual points; that's really handy for stabilizing people, staying in the fight if staggered, or other more tactical applications. This sort of thinking, incidentally, is why I consider DEX, not INT to be the paladin dump stat. A paladin should be smart, not just noble and valiant. As far as boosting spells for the paladin go.... What, bless, magic weapon, protection from evil, shield of faith, aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, magic vestment, prayer, imbue with spell ability, greater magic weapon, spell resistance, foundation of stone, energized shield, iron silence, protection from negative energy, quick march, blindsight, flame of faith, ghost touch weapon, vigor, delay death, sheltered vitality, undead bane weapon, life's grace, and mantle of the icy soul (incidentally, just the highlights from the PHB & spell compendium)aren't enough for you? You know what else can stabilize people? Level 0 spells, cheap potions, and easy skill checks. You know how often the ability to stabilize by using all your actions for the round at anything but the lowest levels is? At anything but, you'll get killed if you do that in combat, unless your DM is coddling you. You DO need to completely heal someone, or at least significantly heal them, to even consider using up your turn healing. Otherwise, well, that person's just going to go down right away... and I don't know where you get the idea that you can just stand near an ally to protect him. People can just go around you. Even if the stabilize is something you need, it's such a minor ability as to be pretty much negligible (I just listed several other easily accessed ways to stabilize someone) Also, the spells you've listed are pretty pitiful by comparison to, say, the cleric's ability to buff himself in combat. And furthermore, the paladin is going to have very, very few spells (more of why he's the most nova-based melee fighter around). The funny thing is that you haven't even listed the real highlights of the paladin spell list. You've forgotten things like Righteous Fury, which is going to give you a handy 50 hp and +4 strength, or Rhino Rush, which is a swift action first level spell that will give you some scary damage. The plain fact of the matter is, the Cleric can be a better melee fighter and especially a better tank than the Paladin. He even gets more smites per day (if you don't understand why, check that spell compendium again). The incidences where the paladin does win, and only in melee and exclusively in melee (not in tanking, just melee damage output), is when there is one encounter per day, and you have access to plenty of supplements. Charging Smite, Rhino Rush, etc for hundreds of damage by level 6 or 7. In fact, a high-level cleric will be busy filling the role of a full spellcaster and only wade into melee in emergencies, contrary to the paladin, who is a frontline tank with some augmental spellcasting through the whole of his career. Oh, so just because the Paladin can't do anything else it doesn't matter that the cleric can do it better, since he'd prefer to do other things? Also, I've seen clerics wade into melee often... you're clearly biased here, since it's only your experience where they don't go in except in emergencies. After all, they are harder to kill than a paladin. __ The idea that "paladins cover the areas clerics can't" as the OP said is wrong. Clerics can do everything paladins can do. They can heal. They can wade into melee. They can control the battlefield better. They can take more hits. They even get to smite. Of course, this is usually only the case at mid-high levels, which I know a lot of people don't have so much experience with... So... I say that the mechanics side of it he mentioned is flawed, since Wizards decided to make clerics and druids good at everything :-p
camirblu 01-08-07, 09:30 PM	that clerics come in more flavors than lawful good and other professions than holy warrior. In a way, the paladin takes one aspect of the cleric and magnifies it, with a much heavier emphasis on melee combat. A cleric of a deity of love, peace and music will have a very different world view from the paladin, while a lawful good cleric of pelor could almost be indistinguishable from one. Much the point, and intent, of my original post. The rules come into play, but so does intent, and intent is something that can make them such a strong pair.