Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nox_Noctis 03-02-08, 05:32 PM	Yes, I said it. Anyway, I'm planning a character for a gestalt game and with Barbarian 20 on one side and nothing critical on the other side besides Feat Rogue 2 until level 7 (Frenzied Berserker), I wanted to make the most of my situation. Now, Lolth-Touched and Dragonborn appear to have a conflict. One (Dragonborn) wants me to serve the ideals of Bahamut, a good dragon, and fight the hordes of Tiamat (evil). The other (Lolth-Touched) wants me to be Chaotic Evil and a direct or indirect servant of the Spider Queen. Of course, Lolth-Touched does not state that you cannot be redeemed. This redemption, however, would mean you have to go back to serving Bahamut (a restriction that I despise because it can derail and railroad campaigns in the wrong direction when the party wants to stop an evil lich and you're chasing after the spawn of Tiamat). The Feral Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian becomes corrupted by Lolth (Lolth-Touched template) and essentially falls from his or her grace. After redeeming himself and realizing the error of his ways and the pain he has caused (since he unwillingly became subjected to this dark power), he wishes to return to the service of Bahamut. The problem, however, is that Bahamut believes he does not possess the willpower and may yet fall again (this works even more so because the ritual to become a Dragonborn is supposed to test your dedication and Bahamut might see that this dedication is not enough to steel the dragonborn against the intrusive powers of darkness). Anyway, it's obviously just a quick summary, not a novel-length description of the trials of this character, but opinions on its possibility and plausibility are welcome. *In any campaign not using Lolth, she can be substituted with any other CE deity most likely. **In any campaign not using Bahamut, he can be substituted with any good, father-of-all-dragons type of deity that is at war with an evil deity (even the deities being dragons themselves is a mutable point). Feral Lolth-Touched Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 2
Drackthor 03-02-08, 08:10 PM	On it's possibility, it's completely possible. On it's plausibility, this reeks of so much cheese you might as well be a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric using Divine Metamagic and Celerity named Pun-Pun.
Neveroth 03-02-08, 08:17 PM	I know minmaxing and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, but one has to draw the line somewhere... and I think you passed mine some 500 miles back. Oh well, at least it's unique. ...It is unique, right? Please tell me this is the first time someone's tried that concept. Please. For the love of God, man, tell me! Ok, I'll stop now. :P
Nox_Noctis 03-02-08, 08:34 PM	@Neveroth: O_o How is that crossing a line? That sounded, at least to me, like a perfectly legitimate back-story that even draws on the flavor of the material in those books (the dragonborn ritual and dedication, etc.). Besides, I could always let the character be devoted the cause through and through (perhaps even joining the cause when he becomes good again and becoming Dragonborn after Lloth-Touched, but I'd rather not hijack a campaign and make it about the Dragonfall wars just because of my character). As for uniqueness, I have no idea. The fact that you're so offended by the idea, however, is almost disappointing (since this board is generally supposed to be about creativity in a broad sense). Besides, if you are so opposed, do you have any suggestions of your own? @Drackthor: While it is certainly powerful, I fail to see how it even nears what Pun Pun is capable of... Besides, The only possibly conflict is Dragonborn and Lloth-Touched as 1) Bahamut would readily accept a Feral creature (or even a creature that had been Lloth-Touched) as long as they are now dedicated to the cause. 2) Lloth would probably favor/prefer a Feral creature since it's more vicious and powerful Again, I could just have it be a Feral Water Orc (perfectly normal) that becomes Lloth-Touched and then redeems himself and joins the service of Bahamut as a Dragonborn and does fight in the Dragonfall wars, but for the sake of any campaign I join, I'd prefer to not ignore whatever plot the DM had in mind because my character is obsessed with purging the world of the spawn of Tiamat. Anyway, the main point I'm trying to make is that if it is so objectionable, what would you suggest to aid plausibility (though I don't see how redemption is implausible...)?
Drackthor 03-02-08, 08:41 PM	@Neveroth: O_o How is that crossing a line? That sounded, at least to me, like a perfectly legitimate back-story that even draws on the flavor of the material in those books (the dragonborn ritual and dedication, etc.). Besides, I could always let the character be devoted the cause through and through (perhaps even joining the cause when he becomes good again and becoming Dragonborn after Lloth-Touched, but I'd rather not hijack a campaign and make it about the Dragonfall wars just because of my character). As for uniqueness, I have no idea. The fact that you're so offended by the idea, however, is almost disappointing (since this board is generally supposed to be about creativity in a broad sense). Besides, if you are so opposed, do you have any suggestions of your own? @Drackthor: While it is certainly powerful, I fail to see how it even nears what Pun Pun is capable of... Besides, The only possibly conflict is Dragonborn and Lloth-Touched as 1) Bahamut would readily accept a Feral creature (or even a creature that had been Lloth-Touched) as long as they are now dedicated to the cause. 2) Lloth would probably favor/prefer a Feral creature since it's more vicious and powerful Again, I could just have it be a Feral Water Orc (perfectly normal) that becomes Lloth-Touched and then redeems himself and joins the service of Bahamut as a Dragonborn and does fight in the Dragonfall wars, but for the sake of any campaign I join, I'd prefer to not ignore whatever plot the DM had in mind because my character is obsessed with purging the world of the spawn of Tiamat. Anyway, the main point I'm trying to make is that if it is so objectionable, what would you suggest to aid plausibility (though I don't see how redemption is implausible...)? Well to be fair, you started your first post with a request of our opinions, not "Tell me I'm right." And I couldn't figure out a way to make it more plausible without altering the choices a little, and I'd allow it in my game, but I'd view it as more of an attempt to create an optimized character rather then a Roleplay Character who happens to be powerful. Don't get me wrong, it's very ingenuitive and fresh, but it's not what I would deem very plausible.
Neveroth 03-02-08, 09:42 PM	I'm sorry, I was mostly joking up there. The thing is, your character just has too many things crammed in it, which seriously hurts its style and believability. The word gestalt in itself is enough to make me cringe and think of 12 year old WoW players, but that's probably more of a personal problem. But feral, dragonborn, Lolth-touched water orc? Seriously. That makes no sense at all and you know it. If you want to play that combination for the stats, be my guest. That's fine, and we can even say that it's "plausible", if stretched very very thin. But that's where it ends, and I'm afraid I can't give you a nod of approval here. I would never play that personally, or allow it in one of my games. For an action-packed, optimized campaign that doesn't involve much roleplaying and character development, it's perfectly viable though. But then again, if you played in one of those, you probably wouldn't be posting on this board... Good sir, I am puzzled.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 10:24 PM	Lolth, and drow, tend to see other races as fodder. The drow are perfect, in shape, form, body, mind and soul. The other races are tools, meant to be used, discarded and tortured. No race rivals the drow in the quest for perfection. Why would Lolth bother with an inferior race, who doesn't even have a trace of her creation in them? So an orc would not be corrupted. They don't tend to corrupt, they tend to destroy. The infiltrate, sure, but with the ultimate goal of destruction, death and enslavement. The only place orcs have in the society of the Drow is as a slave. They would be at the beck and call of a drow, with their minds warped or broken, most likely. And why didn't the orc get sacrificed? I think Drow need to sacrifice a good amount of outsiders on a daily basis, and Lolth loves getting goodies. Drow only like other drow, and they try to kill each other on a daily basis. I think other races also worship Lolth, but can you name one that is highly into corruption and desecration, not destruction and slaughter?
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 01:35 AM	I'm sorry, I was mostly joking up there. The thing is, your character just has too many things crammed in it, which seriously hurts its style and believability. The word gestalt in itself is enough to make me cringe and think of 12 year old WoW players, but that's probably more of a personal problem. But feral, dragonborn, Lolth-touched water orc? Seriously. That makes no sense at all and you know it. If you want to play that combination for the stats, be my guest. That's fine, and we can even say that it's "plausible", if stretched very very thin. But that's where it ends, and I'm afraid I can't give you a nod of approval here. I would never play that personally, or allow it in one of my games. For an action-packed, optimized campaign that doesn't involve much roleplaying and character development, it's perfectly viable though. But then again, if you played in one of those, you probably wouldn't be posting on this board... Good sir, I am puzzled. Seeing as Feral isn't "crammed" in (it's an inherited template - part of birth) and Barbarian is simply a class choice, I assume you are referring to both Dragonborn and Lloth-Touched coexisting. I'm not sure why 2 templates makes the character "crammed," but if you could elaborate, I would appreciate that. I have no control over your prejudice against gestalt. I just say embrace new horizons and opportunities and options. Unearthed Arcana presents many fun and intriguing variants and I enjoy changing things up. I can't really see a complaint against Water Orc... or Feral (short of objections to the very existence of them - not their combination). That's simply a matter of genetics in-game since one is a race and one is a genetic mutation more or less. Anyway, I'd really like more specific details on why the proper background couldn't incorporate Dragonborn and Lloth-Touched. That is, what specifically about the situation I posed (of tragedy and redemption) is unbelievable? Well to be fair, you started your first post with a request of our opinions, not "Tell me I'm right." And I couldn't figure out a way to make it more plausible without altering the choices a little, and I'd allow it in my game, but I'd view it as more of an attempt to create an optimized character rather then a Roleplay Character who happens to be powerful. Don't get me wrong, it's very ingenuitive and fresh, but it's not what I would deem very plausible.[/quote] That first point is fair. It still didn't need to degenerate into a nonsensical comparison to Pun-Pun. Anyway, what I now dislike is that you have separated "optimized character" and "roleplay character." I will admit this is supposed to be a powerful character. That's no lie. But there is no need to draw a distinction between an "optimized character" and a "roleplay character." I cite the Stormwind Fallacy and the Gospels (CO Gospels). Flavor and optimization are not only not specifically mutually exclusive, they are quite often related. I am trying to strengthen this relation here. Lolth, and drow, tend to see other races as fodder. The drow are perfect, in shape, form, body, mind and soul. The other races are tools, meant to be used, discarded and tortured. No race rivals the drow in the quest for perfection. Why would Lolth bother with an inferior race, who doesn't even have a trace of her creation in them? So an orc would not be corrupted. They don't tend to corrupt, they tend to destroy. The infiltrate, sure, but with the ultimate goal of destruction, death and enslavement. The only place orcs have in the society of the Drow is as a slave. They would be at the beck and call of a drow, with their minds warped or broken, most likely. And why didn't the orc get sacrificed? I think Drow need to sacrifice a good amount of outsiders on a daily basis, and Lolth loves getting goodies. Drow only like other drow, and they try to kill each other on a daily basis. I think other races also worship Lolth, but can you name one that is highly into corruption and desecration, not destruction and slaughter? Lloth doesn't solely grant her blessing (Lloth-Touched) to Drow. As for orcs "not be[ing] corrupted," there is no rule that says they cannot become corrupt. That very notion is entirely unfounded and ludicrous. The Orc could easily be a slave of a Drow. "A particularly blessed Drow judicator might have a Lolth-Touched servant as well," comes from the MM2 entry on page 94 for the template itself. I know that Drow hate all other races and see themselves as the superior race (and all other races fit only for death or enslavement). I have played a Drow... (and actually currently play that Drow). Actually, the Fury in Eberron, a "sinister goddess of passion," is able to grant the same template. It's clearly not specific to "corruption and desecration." The Eberron entry also gives a suggestion for making one of the Cults of the Dragon Below tied to Lloth. The Cults aren't specifically Drow. An Orc could easily become such a cultist. This, interestingly enough, makes the conflict between Bahamut and the fallen Orc more tumultuous (and gripping, in my opinion) since the Bahamut vs. Tiamat conflict is replaced with Siberys and Khyber. Here, not only would the Orc fall into darkness (and stray from the path of Siberys), but he would indeed turn against the cause (and almost certainly be cast out of Siberys' service). So with these multiple paths that all support what I am suggesting, I simply want to know why you think it stretches plausibility. If you're opposed, I won't try to tell you not to be (though I do think it's unfortunate as I do tend to embrace the Stormwind Fallacy's proposal). I'd rather go the Socratic approach and ask you why you feel that way.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 02:04 AM	Page 94 of MMII has Ether Scarab and Etheral Doppelganger. I don't think that's the right page. Also, this is the first that Eberron and The Fury has been mentioned. The original template mentions Lolth, not the Fury. So yeah, people will assume Lolth, not the Fury. Also, Drow Judicators are only Drow, implied that they are mostly Male. Here is a web Excerpt: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003c So the Orc cannot be one.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 02:06 AM	Page 94 of MMII has Ether Scarab and Etheral Doppelganger. I don't think that's the right page. Also, this is the first that Eberron and The Fury has been mentioned. The original template mentions Lolth, not the Fury. So yeah, people will assume Lolth, not the Fury. Oh, you're right. It's MM IV. I apologize. The section of MM IV mentions adapting it to Eberron and Faerun and uses The Fury as an option in the Eberron entry.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 02:22 AM	Uh...The examples are all spiders and spider demons, and while the drow might get the template, it does not explicity state that orcs cannot have it. But, given that it's a drow thing, and the only other creatures to have it are spiders, I would assume that orcs do not receive it. Also, it's said that it is used on drow and beasts of burden. It's sorta like a Half Red Dragon Half Gold dragon Half human Half Black dragon business. It's not illegal, but it makes no sense. And if Bahamut doubts the guy, then he wouldn't have the benefits of the Dragonborn. To cast off doubt and redeem himself, he'd need to somehow lose the Lolth/Fury/Whatever-touched template, so he probably wouldn't have both at the same time.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 02:46 AM	And if Bahamut doubts the guy, then he wouldn't have the benefits of the Dragonborn. To cast off doubt and redeem himself, he'd need to somehow lose the Lolth/Fury/Whatever-touched template, so he probably wouldn't have both at the same time. I already presented the Fury and Cult of the Dragon Below options as well, so even without Lloth, there are still two perfectly viable methods (particularly the Cult of the Dragon Below). As for Bahamut's/Siberys' doubt: "A potential recruit’s past actions matter little; all that counts is present and future devotion to opposing Tiamat and her spawn. Some wrongdoers have found redemption and purpose in becoming Bahamut’s servants." The doubt would, however, be present if he was a Dragonborn and then fell into the Cult of the Dragon Below or some-such because then the "future devotion" could be questioned and doubted since the Dragonborn would have already wavered once since swearing allegiance to the Platinum Dragon. If it was a "Lloth-Touched" (substitute Lloth for the Fury or for Lloth through connections of the Cult of the Dragon Below) creature first and then sought redemption through the cause of the Platinum Dragon, that would be perfectly acceptable. Either way works, though I'd prefer swearing to Bahamut/Siberys first so that the character doesn't have to go off and chase the evil dragons all the time (so the campaign can follow its regular story arc instead of becoming exclusively about the Dragonfall Wars).
Drackthor 03-03-08, 02:53 AM	That first point is fair. It still didn't need to degenerate into a nonsensical comparison to Pun-Pun. Anyway, what I now dislike is that you have separated "optimized character" and "roleplay character." I will admit this is supposed to be a powerful character. That's no lie. But there is no need to draw a distinction between an "optimized character" and a "roleplay character." I cite the Stormwind Fallacy and the Gospels (CO Gospels). Flavor and optimization are not only not specifically mutually exclusive, they are quite often related. I am trying to strengthen this relation here. You're misusing the Stormwind Fallacy. I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive, merely that this character feels like you created an optimized build, and then built your background around it, while I find it should be the other way around.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 03:14 AM	O_o Now it just sounds like you're being picky about the order of the paragraphs I presented. If I had presented the background, then the levels, and then the explanation of how it works out in the end, it would be the same result.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 03:39 AM	I doubt the CO boards try to RP Pun-pun, Chuck, Kablooie, That guy who throws chickens, any build requiring scientific notation, or a guy with three or more parents. Those builds are meant to point out flaws in the system, not to actually play or RP. Also "A dragonborn loses many of her original racial traits and gains the racial traits of the dragonborn race (see below)." So...Why the Water Orc? And I found these two quotes: "If the dragonborn refuses to atone for her evil ways, Bahamut renounces her as his child and takes back the dragonborn form he granted her." And: "The Platinum Dragon does not tolerate wicked deeds on the part of his children. A single instance might be overlooked if the dragonborn immediately makes good through an atonement spell. Indulging unrepentantly in iniquity, committing repeated forbidden acts, or converting to an evil philosophy provokes Bahamut to anger and action." So it wouldn't work anyway. If the character remains evil, they lose the Dragonborn abilities. And Bahamut would not play tug of war over someone's soul.
CrimsonDeath 03-03-08, 03:46 AM	I know that you lose the Dragonborn template if you fall out of favor with Bahamut. Is similar true for Lolth-Touched? Also, you shouldn't worry too much about carting the party around hunting chromatic dragons. The description in RotD says that it's perfectly alright to go fight some other variety of evil from time to time, especially if you have close allies who don't serve Bahamut.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 03:51 AM	I doubt the CO boards try to RP Pun-pun, Chuck, Kablooie, That guy who throws chickens, any build requiring scientific notation, or a guy with three or more parents. Those builds are meant to point out flaws in the system, not to actually play or RP. Also "A dragonborn loses many of her original racial traits and gains the racial traits of the dragonborn race (see below)." So...Why the Water Orc? Why not? Why choose a Gray Elf Wizard instead of a Wild Elf Wizard? Why choose a Human Wizard over a Dwarf Wizard? Are you seriously going to argue that +4 Con, +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha (equal ability scores) is significantly better than the options many other races offer (since "many" of the original traits are lost, but others remain). Also, are you going to argue that any good combination should not be allowed? Should a regular Water Orc not be allowed to be a Barbarian because of his ability scores? The answer is no (in fact, many Orcs apparently do become Barbarians based on favored class - and logically so; it makes sense that a strong creature would want to make use of its strength [in-game-world optimization right there]). Therefore there is no logical reason to prohibit a Water Orc Barbarian from becoming a Dragonborn (since neither Water Orc nor Barbarian excludes Dragonborn - further, Dragonborn's additional favored class is fighter, a slightly more refined melee combatant, but certainly a melee combatant in most cases nonetheless - with the occasional ranged fighter). And I found these two quotes: "If the dragonborn refuses to atone for her evil ways, Bahamut renounces her as his child and takes back the dragonborn form he granted her." And: "The Platinum Dragon does not tolerate wicked deeds on the part of his children. A single instance might be overlooked if the dragonborn immediately makes good through an atonement spell. Indulging unrepentantly in iniquity, committing repeated forbidden acts, or converting to an evil philosophy provokes Bahamut to anger and action." So it wouldn't work anyway. If the character remains evil, they lose the Dragonborn abilities. And Bahamut would not play tug of war over someone's soul. Where did I ever say they remain evil or refuse to atone? I specifically mentioned redemption multiple times. Besides, I'm fairly certain that being marked by an evil deity unwillingly (a possible way to role play the template) and thus corrupted/perverted to evil isn't the same as consciously going around being evil in spite of the vow to Bahamut/Siberys. There's also the fact that I mentioned the reverse order multiple times as well (evil becoming a good Dragonborn and remaining good that way - even if I prefer the other order so that I do not risk derailing a campaign).
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 03:53 AM	I know that you lose the Dragonborn template if you fall out of favor with Bahamut. Is similar true for Lolth-Touched? Also, you shouldn't worry too much about carting the party around hunting chromatic dragons. The description in RotD says that it's perfectly alright to go fight some other variety of evil from time to time, especially if you have close allies who don't serve Bahamut. Lloth-Touched says nothing of that. As for that description, I do believe I have missed that (odd since I've read the Dragonborn section about five times now that I read it again today). That relieves me a lot. :)
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 04:04 AM	To gain the Lolth-touched template, the creature turns CE. So they would lose Dragon Born. It cannot be applied to a lawful or good creature. So someone could be a Lolth-touched and then go Dragon Born, but not the other way around. And no, I simply asked if you were trying to qualify for orc feats, or not, actually.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 04:17 AM	To gain the Lolth-touched template, the creature turns CE. So they would lose Dragon Born. It cannot be applied to a lawful or good creature. So someone could be a Lolth-touched and then go Dragon Born, but not the other way around. And no, I simply asked if you were trying to qualify for orc feats, or not, actually. Well, with the clarification that Dragonborn doesn't have to derail the campaign (you can deem whatever campaign the DM intends as training/preparation for future battles against the evil spawn), Lloth-Touched (or equivalent for the Fury or the Lloth adaptation for the Cult) into Dragonborn works just fine - redeeming himself by entering the service of Bahamut/Siberys. As for Orc feats, I don't think so. O_o I haven't seen any that look like they work with the flavor of the character's combat style (I'm not going for any of the charge feats or anything).
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 04:21 AM	Techinally, he has forsaken civilization with the feral template(You might have forgotten it with all of the other ones, I nearly did) so yes, yes it does fit.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 04:35 AM	Techinally, he has forsaken civilization with the feral template(You might have forgotten it with all of the other ones, I nearly did) so yes, yes it does fit. No, I mean it does not fit with the combat style of my specific character as I envision him - not just with him being feral. Besides, it's a very common misconception that all feral creatures get Pounce (which makes charges more effective). Pounce and the similar abilities are specifically keyed to the amount of monster hit dice (racial) rather than total hit dice (unlike the Darkvision and Fast Healing). So most feral PCs do not inherently reflect charging/leaping combat. They are still brutish undoubtedly, but whether or not they charge is a matter of flavor, not of the template.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 04:39 AM	No, but their favored combat style is fast, furious and uncontrollable, so flavor wise, it fits great. Then again you have a whooping -6 to INT. There are bricks smarter then this character, so his combat style is probably "Hit it on the head" and anything more complicated makes it so he has to lie down and take a nap because his head hurts.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 04:48 AM	No, but their favored combat style is fast, furious and uncontrollable, so flavor wise, it fits great. Then again you have a whooping -6 to INT. There are bricks smarter then this character, so his combat style is probably "Hit it on the head" and anything more complicated makes it so he has to lie down and take a nap because his head hurts. Fast and furious doesn't necessitate charges though. If they can charge into melee, that's fine, but I have no intention to build the character to be one of those that charges in and then moves 10 feet away and charges again the next turn, etc. If there is room to charge into melee, he or she likely will, but from then on he or she will likely remain in melee. I'm also thinking that redemption will likely be a recurring theme for this character since Frenzy will probably lead to something regretful happening eventually... particularly because the Mind aspect will make the character immune to magical sleep (a good, clean way to stop a frenzied character). And yes, it's looking like 4 Intelligence so far...
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 04:58 AM	So your orc has the memory of a goldfish, and 40 IQ. And probably only a 200 word vocabulary. They can't even speak any other langague then common.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 05:00 AM	So your orc has the memory of a goldfish, and 40 IQ. And probably only a 200 word vocabulary. They can't even speak any other langague then common. Draconic... I'm trying to redistribute a few things to make that a 7 Int at the lowest (just above mental retardation if you accept the 10 IQ = 1 Intelligence correlation [which makes no sense on the extreme ends, but whatever]). It looks to be possible.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 06:22 AM	Seems strange that a character who can barely understand past and future(if at all) tense can understand draconic. However, through, like much else, legally possible. Makes you wonder how they can understand religion at all.
Neveroth 03-03-08, 11:52 AM	Just out of curiosity, what inspired you to make this character the way it is now? Do you honestly enjoy roleplaying obscure monsters with dreadfully low iq scores, or was it just the desire to play an unstoppable killing machine, later patched up with a weak backstory? If it's the former, then I rest my case. However, if it's the latter, then maybe you can appreciate what we're aiming for here. Perhaps you should consider flavour while building mechanics (or before), instead of after. What is the base concept for it, in a few words? Whatever it is, I am positive that it can be done with less... kitsch choices involved. Because in no scenario are all of those templates crucial to your character's role in the group and story, and saying otherwise would in all likelihood mean lying to yourself in a poor attempt at justification.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 12:59 PM	Just out of curiosity, what inspired you to make this character the way it is now? Do you honestly enjoy roleplaying obscure monsters with dreadfully low iq scores, or was it just the desire to play an unstoppable killing machine, later patched up with a weak backstory? If it's the former, then I rest my case. However, if it's the latter, then maybe you can appreciate what we're aiming for here. Perhaps you should consider flavour while building mechanics (or before), instead of after. What is the base concept for it, in a few words? Whatever it is, I am positive that it can be done with less... kitsch choices involved. Because in no scenario are all of those templates crucial to your character's role in the group and story, and saying otherwise would in all likelihood mean lying to yourself in a poor attempt at justification. Don't insult me. This is not my first time on these boards. Search the boards for "Grey Kingdoms," "Armstrong," "the Devastator," etc. If you think I don't give a damn about flavor or role playing, you're dead wrong. Please check out this link for another example: http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=881704#post881704 If you dislike my writing style, that's fine, but don't tell me I don't care about the story or accuse me of such. Yes, I do like playing obscure characters. One of my characters is a street urchin who knows Draconic (the language of the nobility in that game) and Latin (his own personal code) and who speaks almost exclusively in riddles or vague abstractions and acts without telling anyone what he's doing because he already has his actions planned out for the next twenty steps. I'm also playing the character I linked to above, Ark, who is a warforged who was actually operated on while he was already alive and even conscious, traumatizing him (all this after the arcane energy of the Mourning shifted him to the Astral Plane). I'm also planning an Iaijutsu Master in the Eberron setting from a long-forgotten clan (Crane Clan, Kakita family) that practices the art of battojutsu. I also at one point wanted to play an Expeditious Messenger homunculi brought to life but I still haven't figured out a good way to do that (since it doesn't have the requisite humanoid shape for Incarnate Construct). And I also wanted to play a melee pixie at one point but that was when I was just beginning to play and games were sparse at best, so that opportunity never arose. I'm not saying they are all necessary to fill a role (a group role), but they are all critical story points that give the character unique flavor and make him distinct. It's what makes him worth being a PC rather than a mundane NPC "Joe Barbarian." That is what PCs are: they are the unique characters. If I wanted, I could make a bland character - but those are not the ones that are sung of in great ballads and epic poems. Also, again, if I had introduced the character first as a barbaric/feral Water Orc who had become corrupted by Lloth and then redeemed himself by swearing loyalty to the Platinum Dragon and then proceeded to list the stats, would you think differently? If it seems like I was grasping for straws with a background in the first post because of the order I typed everything up in, that's not a good case. I posted the stats first because I assumed they would draw attention. I've posted a few times here on these boards and quite often whole threads get passed by. So I added a hook. The base concept, in one word, is redemption. With two, I'd give redemption, triumph. Redemption isn't as potent for a character who does not have far to fall or far to rise. a Savage (feral, orc) and evil (Lloth-Touched) creature has great potential to rise and the Lloth-Touched also provides conflict later because it will imprint the mark of the Spider Queen on him (one of the optional effects of the Lloth-Touched template is a spider emblem appearing on the creature). I envision this to be odd-colored scales in his Dragonborn form - a mark of his shame.
Nox_Noctis 03-03-08, 01:45 PM	Seems strange that a character who can barely understand past and future(if at all) tense can understand draconic. However, through, like much else, legally possible. Makes you wonder how they can understand religion at all. Er, it's not just legal possibility. It's one of the Dragonborn traits - the knowledge of the language is likely gifted to them from Bahamut just as their body is.
Drackthor 03-03-08, 02:21 PM	O_o Now it just sounds like you're being picky about the order of the paragraphs I presented. If I had presented the background, then the levels, and then the explanation of how it works out in the end, it would be the same result. I'm not, and it wouldn't. You misused the SW Fallacy, I showed you why, and now you're saying I'm being picky and using emotes.
I_roll_ones 03-03-08, 07:08 PM	I have three issues with the RP: First, is that you are making a Holy Warrior with an intelligence of 4. That should not be allowed, because someone that DUMB cannot comprehend religion or iffy moral questions. You would make atheists giggle at priests, and make priests commit suicide out of shame. People would turn away from Bahamut if he made such a monstrosity as one of his chosen servants. Secondly, you are not RPing the redemption. Why? It's preplanned. You have no room for failure, error, or a different RP path. It's all in your background, not in the game. I'd have more respect if you made the feral barbarian orc and went from there, RPing each step of the way. Third, it's like someone RPing as "I R TEH CHOSEN ONE!!!!" because you are the chosen one of TWO freaking gods. Mary Sue/Marty Stu much? Just try to apply the SW fallacy to Pun-pun or Mr. Idiot Holy Dragon.
Nox_Noctis 03-04-08, 02:07 AM	I have three issues with the RP: First, is that you are making a Holy Warrior with an intelligence of 4. That should not be allowed, because someone that DUMB cannot comprehend religion or iffy moral questions. You would make atheists giggle at priests, and make priests commit suicide out of shame. People would turn away from Bahamut if he made such a monstrosity as one of his chosen servants. Holiness has no correspondence to intelligence, though perhaps wisdom is necessary (though wisdom is not a low score). Further, I'm fairly certain I can give him an 8 Intelligence. Secondly, you are not RPing the redemption. Why? It's preplanned. You have no room for failure, error, or a different RP path. It's all in your background, not in the game. I'd have more respect if you made the feral barbarian orc and went from there, RPing each step of the way. Writing a detailed background does involve elaborating on that redemption... Most writers begin with an outline and work from there... This isn't a finished product. Third, it's like someone RPing as "I R TEH CHOSEN ONE!!!!" because you are the chosen one of TWO freaking gods. Mary Sue/Marty Stu much? Just try to apply the SW fallacy to Pun-pun or Mr. Idiot Holy Dragon. Dragonborn doesn't make you a chosen of Bahamut. Bahamut (Siberys) accepts all that are willing and dedicated into his service. Also, using the Cult of the Dragon Below and Lloth as a Rakshasa Rajah (sample option used by the MMIV), the template has nothing to do with being chosen. It's merely a reward for aiding the ritual of the cult to free her.
Drackthor 03-04-08, 02:39 AM	Holiness has no correspondence to intelligence, though perhaps wisdom is necessary (though wisdom is not a low score). Further, I'm fairly certain I can give him an 8 Intelligence. Writing a detailed background does involve elaborating on that redemption... Most writers begin with an outline and work from there... This isn't a finished product. Dragonborn doesn't make you a chosen of Bahamut. Bahamut (Siberys) accepts all that are willing and dedicated into his service. Also, using the Cult of the Dragon Below and Lloth as a Rakshasa Rajah (sample option used by the MMIV), the template has nothing to do with being chosen. It's merely a reward for aiding the ritual of the cult to free her. Just out of curiosity, and this is strictly curiosity and in no way a slight against you, but it seems you constantly refer to Lolth as Lloth. Is there some reason for that, or is just a typo that happens often? The curious part of me has been dying to know.
Nox_Noctis 03-04-08, 04:24 AM	I picked that up when I started role playing my Drow. Anyway, Lloth used to be her name in Salvatore's books before he changed it to Lolth (or so my personal investigating turned up - I didn't verify, so it may be wrong). Also, said investigating gave me information saying that it's "Lloth" in the Drow dialect and Lolth in other tongues (though I believe pronunciation remains the same). Since I was (am) playing a Drow, I was (am) typing it as Lloth. And now it just sticks.
Neraagile 03-05-08, 07:34 AM	I'm at a loss of words.... Okay maybe not, but it's more subjective than I would like them to be. I am furious. I'm furious as a DM, and I am furious as a player of this game. That you could even consider doing something like this, and then post it at the Character Development boards, just to get what seems to me like plausible reason to play this, this.... thing. I had more to say, but I reread the Monster Manuals and your Lolth-Touched thing is doable with DM approval. That said I detest it. -snip- I generally like your train of thought, but right now I'm too angry to agree with you, that it is actually being doable form a RP point of view (for a goodish party), I mean come one, the guy has a Int of what? 4? He's to bloody stupid to do anything but instinct, which is CE, he doesn't know any better, he doesn't care. Because he is almost as close to a vegetable as a player is allowed to play!
I_roll_ones 03-05-08, 04:42 PM	First, 4 is human like intelligence, according to the 3.5 FAQ. Really really really bad human like intelligence, and he has a 200 word vocabulary, at best. (Makes you wonder about what WoTC thinks of humans) If his WIS score is decent, he might have a good sense of empathy. He is probably able enough to realize that he is hurting someone else, but come up with really stupid plans. Such as bonking people on the head in town, forgetting about the guards. And if he had animal like intelligence, unable to do more then act on instinct, he would be TN, as that is what animals are. And my opinion is, there is no reasoning with this guy. If he wants to RP a defender of justice, good and right with a guy who is stupid, let him. I have strong suspicions that this act of trolling is an act of revenge against people who think CharOp people cannot role play. I think I've seen a few derogatory remarks against CharOp people. However, coming over to this forum and making a mockery of it is only making the problem worse, and if someone stumbled upon this, might be justified in thinking that CharOP people really don't Roleplay, and just try to break the game without any regard for the RP. However, the best way to deal with this is not to become angry. Besides, what DM would allow this, who was concerned at all with roleplay? Doesn't help that there is no backstory, and Lolth/Bahamut keeps being mentioned, despite it being really odd that an orc would become a Lolth-touched, but could become a Fury-touched.
Nox_Noctis 03-05-08, 06:34 PM	And my opinion is, there is no reasoning with this guy. If he wants to RP a defender of justice, good and right with a guy who is stupid, let him. I have strong suspicions that this act of trolling is an act of revenge against people who think CharOp people cannot role play. I think I've seen a few derogatory remarks against CharOp people. However, coming over to this forum and making a mockery of it is only making the problem worse, and if someone stumbled upon this, might be justified in thinking that CharOP people really don't Roleplay, and just try to break the game without any regard for the RP. However, the best way to deal with this is not to become angry. Besides, what DM would allow this, who was concerned at all with roleplay? Doesn't help that there is no backstory, and Lolth/Bahamut keeps being mentioned, despite it being really odd that an orc would become a Lolth-touched, but could become a Fury-touched. ...Wow - so I'm a troll seeking revenge that cannot be reasoned with? That's more than a little offensive. I'm not trying to make a mockery of anything. I'm really sorry that you feel that I am. I like unusual characters. I don't play D&D to play mundane or cliche types. Also, I really do encourage you to read the link or search for the thread I mentioned. I keep referring to Lloth because that is the traditional term for the template that most people are familiar with. If I said Fury-Touched or Lloth-Touched as a member of the Cult of the Dragon Below, people would likely have no idea what I'm talking about (with no offense to their knowledge, it's just obscure being tucked away on one page of Monster Manual 4). As for a background being provided, I do have school and grades to maintain (possibly a 4.0 for my Winter quarter of Freshman year here at UCI) and I do tend to keep my writing private until it is finished (which a full background is not - my last background was roughly six or seven pages for a level two character). Again, it's unfortunate that you feel so strongly outraged, but I'm in no way attempting to belittle character development (seriously, read my link or search for Armstrong, the Grey Kingdoms, or the Devastator in threads made by me within this forum). I would link you to my character, Link Leverette, who speaks primarily in riddles, etc., but the game is private. Also, as for the intelligence leaning toward CE, 1's is correct that it would lean toward True Neutral if it was of animalistic intelligence. Secondly, the Intelligence is 8 as it stands currently. Thirdly, "stupid" people can still be zealously dedicated to good causes. Stupidity does not make a person evil. The fact that you correlate stupidity and evilness actually frightens me from a humanistic perspective. Here is Armstrong: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911136 Most of his story is actually in the Gleemax Roleplaying forum, but I do not visit there anymore and will not delve into it to find appropriate threads. Threads in that forum contain many of my characters, however, not just Armstrong (Armstrong the Devastator, Faera, Lt. Colonel Roy Mustang, First Lieutenant Riza Hawkeye, Cassandra Valkyria, and the Marquis Ipsen are the main characters I used in Gleemax Roleplaying).
Luis_Dragunov 03-05-08, 07:01 PM	Maybe it's being hard to concile that tumultuous gathering of traits because of the overwhelming stench of cheese? I mean, seriously... what happened to that guy? So he's this water orc who was, by nature, fiercer and more primitive than his fellows (so far it is cool) and decided to dedicate himself to the complete alien goddess of vermin and DROW? And then, somehow, through his nigh cyclopic worldview finds in himself the courage to dedicate his life to killing evil dragons in the name of Bahamut and somehow retain your favor from Lloth. You complain about this getting you railroaded? Frankly, your character deserves it. Look at the poor Orc! Look what you have done to him! :rolleyes:
Nox_Noctis 03-05-08, 07:04 PM	Maybe it's being hard to concile that tumultuous gathering of traits because of the overwhelming stench of cheese? I mean, seriously... what happened to that guy? So he's this water orc who was, by nature, fiercer and more primitive than his fellows (so far it is cool) and decided to dedicate himself to the complete alien goddess of vermin and DROW? And then, somehow, through your nigh cyclopic worldview find in yourself the courage to dedicate yourself to killing evil dragons in the name of Bahamut and somehow retain your favor from Lloth. You complain about this getting you railroaded? Frankly, your character deserves it. Look at the poor Orc! Look what you have done to him! :rolleyes: ...Please read the variant applications of the Lolth-Touched template on page 94 of the Monster Manual 4 for explanations of the Eberron Cult of the Dragon Below application and the Fury application. The Cult of the Dragon Below has nothing to do with Drow. And it is quite possible to redeem oneself (to come to understand that one has done something horrible and unleashed a fiend after thinking that one had just done some great service to the world - the members of the Cult could easily be deluded and believe that the fiends in Khyber need to be released for good). Further, what better penance for aiding Khyber is there than to serve Siberys (since they are the conflicting forces in Eberron)?
Luis_Dragunov 03-05-08, 07:15 PM	...Please read the variant applications of the Lolth-Touched template on page 94 of the Monster Manual 4 for explanations of the Eberron Cult of the Dragon Below application and the Fury application. The Cult of the Dragon Below has nothing to do with Drow. Alright, give me a second... And it is quite possible to redeem oneself (to come to understand that one has done something horrible and unleashed a fiend after thinking that one had just done some great service to the world - the members of the Cult could easily be deluded and believe that the fiends in Khyber need to be released for good). Further, what better penance for aiding Khyber is there than to serve Siberys (since they are the conflicting forces in Eberron)? Oh, I perfectly understand that redemption is possible. In fact, if handled properly, it can make for awesome and fun Roleplay. However, how can you maintain the favor of the Fury (which, if taken in account that Eberron deities are almost a matter of pure faith, this implying that you need to believe and dedicate yourself to him) and also dedicate yourself to Bahamut (him and Siberys and Khyber and Eberron and all other dragon deities are differentiated. Check out Dragons of Eberron, if you can)? You can't retain the favor of two opposed deities.
Nox_Noctis 03-05-08, 07:22 PM	Alright, give me a second... Oh, I perfectly understand that redemption is possible. In fact, if handled properly, it can make for awesome and fun Roleplay. However, how can you maintain the favor of the Fury (which, if taken in account that Eberron deities are almost a matter of pure faith, this implying that you need to believe and dedicate yourself to him) and also dedicate yourself to Bahamut (him and Siberys and Khyber and Eberron and all other dragon deities are differentiated. Check out Dragons of Eberron, if you can)? You can't retain the favor of two opposed deities. Er, I don't own Dragons of Eberron, but Races of the Dragon says that the Siberys/Khyber conflict replaces the Bahamut/Tiamat conflict in the Eberron setting. I'm predominantly looking at the Cult of the Dragon Below though because it provides the most interesting form of redemption. The Orc, a cultist rewarded for releasing the Rakshasa fiend Lloth would be rewarded. He would learn later, however, the truth of his "crime" and seek redemption. Because Khyber (whom he had just helped) is opposed to Siberys, it makes the most sense that true redemption would take the form of him siding with Siberys in the conflict/Dragonfall War.
Luis_Dragunov 03-05-08, 07:48 PM	Er, I don't own Dragons of Eberron, but Races of the Dragon says that the Siberys/Khyber conflict replaces the Bahamut/Tiamat conflict in the Eberron setting. Well, it's tricky since, in Eberron, gods are mostly silent, absent... more like real-world deities. Their followers and the power their wield is very real, though. Bahamut is still among the dragon deities that get worshiped but, yes, it does seem that Siberys, worshiped as a Progenitor deity along the lines of father of dragons and magic, replaces Bahamut. Tiamat, however, is the real beacon for evil dragons, not Khyber. Khyber is barely related to dragons at all, being the spawn point of fiends and Overlords. Instead, Tiamat is the one to whom evil dragons turn. It is almost a moot point because Tiamat is very real and not a deity: she's a spawn of Khyber, a very powerful fiend, trapped in Argonessen. When lots of dragons turn to evil, she struggles against her prision. She's the one spawning half-fiend dragons and granting fiends the half-dragon template. I'm predominantly looking at the Cult of the Dragon Below though because it provides the most interesting form of redemption. The Orc, a cultist rewarded for releasing the Rakshasa fiend Lloth would be rewarded. He would learn later, however, the truth of his "crime" and seek redemption. Because Khyber (whom he had just helped) is opposed to Siberys, it makes the most sense that true redemption would take the form of him siding with Siberys in the conflict/Dragonfall War. Well, it seems quite good, to tell you the truth. However, ask yourself this: would Siberys allow him to continue with the "burden" of the taint of a Rakshasa fiend's touch throughout the transformation? Of course, you can always say that since Siberys might not be real at all and Lloth is, as a Fiend, then of course the template stays. However, then what causes the transformation into Dragonborn? If it's the ritual fueled by true faith and devotion, then how can the Lloth-touched template survive it? Also, WHY would a fiend continue to grant your character the boon when he's now fighting for the enemy?
Neraagile 03-05-08, 10:59 PM	-snip, a whole lot of wise words-And if he had animal like intelligence, unable to do more then act on instinct, he would be TN, as that is what animals are. Well this is where my skeptisim comes in because if you check the Loth Touched Template theres is an example with a Monstrous Spider (Vermine) which would be TN as it has Intelligence as a non-ability. When you check the alignment entry you have "Always Chaotic Evil", so a creature with animal intelligence is made into a Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend. when I started my previous thread I was about to rant about who Always means no change available but then I reread the Monster Manuals Alignment entry and I quote: Alignment: -snip- Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature might have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions I'm not trying to make a mockery of anything. I'm really sorry that you feel that I am. I like unusual characters. I don't play D&D to play mundane or cliche types. Well, I don't like playing mundane characters either, in fact I think its boring (I'm currently working on a Venerable Monk/Swordsage). I don't think this unsual, I think it's pretty absurd.