Fitting in. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fitting in. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Derrhyn
02-20-06, 04:35 PM The majority of the posts in this forum (I'm a newbie,so don't hate me if I'm wrong) seem to be preoccupied with making a character as unique and special as possible. My question however is about how to avoid being so self-centered that you alienate the other players.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing unique characters, and have played a few, but I sometimes find myself trying to be the center of atention all the time ending up with a campain that more or less revolves around me. My group has a mixed take on D&D. Two of them are as found of roleplaying as me, while the other two (and a few irregulars) get bored if they don't get to throw dices all the time.

We are coming to terms with this problem though by starting a parralell adventure with me and the other two roleplayers, while we agree to tone down our worst quirks in the other adventure. I think that will take care of the first problem, but if somone has any advice, please tell me and I'll pass it on.

The other problem is more complicated. The three of us that are starting the "roleplaying" adventure usually play our characters soo good that we often don't get along at all in the game. We have spent several sessions hunting each other and I've lost count of all the times we have killed each other. (and the other characters as well) All of wich is fun up to a point, but I'm worried that in a more unrestricted game we will simply leave each other and pursue our own interests. You might say it is up to the DM to provide an adventure where we are inclined/forced to stick together, but in my mind it is also a players responsibility to make a character that can actually fit in an a group.

So I ask for advice. How do you make a group with a LG Paladin a CE Wizard and a N Druid work together? Or why would a dominating Socrerer put up with an ugly, stubborn rogue that doesn't abide her orders?

Or if you want a more complicated one, Why would a mercenary fighter join a heroic, but foolhardy quest to eliminate an evil cult when there are no promise of rewards. Especially if the group seems to be torn with internal differences and lack of leadership.

Thanks in advance.

Derrhyn
Talen Lee
02-20-06, 05:35 PM Simple. They're all carrying Cool Stuff, and when the group self-destructs, the guy who's a dedicated survivor will be on hand to pick it up and sell it. Easy money.
Twilly
02-20-06, 06:06 PM Before you start creating your character, you should discuss with the group what kind of characters are going to be played. The DM should give you some clew about the kind of campaign he wants to play. Even better is to tell the DM what kind of game the players have in mind.
- Everyone is part of Thievesguild.
- All will be members of some knightly order.
- Or we all have different reasons but the same goal.
Try to help the DM, and try to make the game fun for everybody. Don't kill eachother unless you are certain that the other player wouldn't mind, even when it is good roleplaying. Nothing is as dear to a player as his/her character. Don't let the DM do all the work.
interpretivechaos
02-20-06, 07:32 PM The first resort I would fall to is OOC contriving some sort of incident that puts everything in a positive light, an inside joke, friends/rivals from a young age, both highly respecting a tactical treatise by some long dead tactician. Once you have common ground you can become ICly be friends.

Second, it may be that you can turn your hatred into competitiveness.

Paladin:(charges goblin lines to great effect) Truly my cynical friend, you do underestimate the power of steel wielded by a righteous heart.
Wizard: I do. (Launches a fireball into the midst of another clump)

Third: Lies and Deceit always work to forge a party. "Of course the threat the cult of the Golden Blind is well worth eradicating. Plus, it's rumoured they extract a lot of tribute from the local merchants...

Fourth: Perhaps they stick around to make life miserable for each other. For example, the Sorceress may get back at him for being irreverent and running off (With a spare magic missle or two), While the rogue accepts the hits and continues to taunt her by not listening to her one bit and setting various pranks on her to get back. As long as you can stop it from escalating with some IC reason or another, it should work

Fifth: Finally Trust. Once you've adventured with each other, even if you know you might get a fish hook in your spell component pocket or a magic missle everytime you run off, at least you can trust them to kill the goblin about to throw a spear at you. You might still hate their guts, but as long as you OOCly make sure you ICly don't escalate it, it should be amusing roleplaying material without going to far. Just take the blow with a chuckle in your eye and a plan on your next prank/ revenge it shouldn't be to bad.
Harrow Blade
02-20-06, 09:51 PM In order to get a group of greatly differing alignments to work and stay together you need something more than the allure of adventure and riches.
The Paladin needs a reason not to smite the wizard when the wizard kills the captives to save time. the wizard needs a reason not to drop a fire ball into the melee containing the Paladin while the druid needs a reason not to wander off into the wilderness and leave the two city slickers at each others throats in the forrest.

An example of this sort of reason may be the paladin has sworn an oath to protect the mage before he realised the mage was evil. The mage may need a holy warrior to help broach the defenses of an old temple in order to sack the treasury. Perhaps the druid belives that he needs the help of the other two to overcome a threat he cannot del with alone.

In any group of conflicting alignments there is going to be tension and arguments. No one is going to be happy with the others all the time. There will be a lack of trust but if they survive a few encounters together there may be a grudging respect that grows.

For these example groups to stay together they need to feel that they 'need' each other to survive and complete thier chosen task.
WhrenKehrsyn
02-21-06, 02:35 AM Well, I think that working with the other players and the DM is very important during character creation for that very reason. It can be very hard when you have characters with opposing world views, and who in all reality should not be doing anything together. This also helps with you not claiming too much of the spotlight but rather it being on the group as a whole more often.

Ive also found that discussing the type of game and the styles of the various players before the game starts is very helpful. Some people like to really get into the RP, and some people like to have powerful characters, and it can be difficult to cater to both without sitting together and discussing as a group what a comfortable balance is of the two.

I would suggest sitting down with the group and discussing it with them now, its never too late, and as group you can come up with some things to make the team more cohesive.
Lord Karsus
02-21-06, 02:58 AM -The best way to avoid major problems like this is to talk with the DM before making your character. Nothing ruins the game more than a party consisting of:

LG Human Paladin
CE Drow Wizard
CN Elf Cleric of Corellon Larethian
NE Illithid Psion
N Doppelganger Rogue

-There is nothing wrong with your characters hating each other's guts, but making sure that the party has some chance of being an actual party really helps make the game a (somewhat) success (so far).
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-21-06, 03:07 AM Why would a mercenary fighter join a heroic, but foolhardy quest to eliminate an evil cult when there are no promise of rewards. Especially if the group seems to be torn with internal differences and lack of leadership.
Maybe the aforementioned mercenary fighter isn't actually a mercenary - maybe that's just a cover, and he's truly a betrayed ex-member of the cult out for payback on the cult and its god, with the ultimate goal of killing the god outright - and he joins the group of good adventurers because they're doing similar things (though for different reasons), and he feels he has a better chance of achieving his goals with help. This was my character ages ago, and he stayed with his group of heroes for several years. ;) (Though he didn't bother with the cover story, he was upfront.)

The way he got the party to keep him around was by simply being too useful to pass up - he understood the enemy better than they did, knew the counters to their tactics, and he was blackhearted enough to take care of business the party was too squeamish to get their own hands dirty with. His attitude was basically "Look, you don't like my methods, you don't have to adopt them. But I'll watch your back as long as you watch mine and we're bringing down Malkormite temples. Just remember I get to kill Malkormus in the end, and I'll crush anyone that gets between me and him."
Vennettai
02-21-06, 07:05 AM ill give give you an idea of what happened in my present campaign. theres me a half-dragon fighterlvl2 a human rogue lvl2 or three i think a vampire clericlvl2 a rangerlvl3 a half orc barb fighterlvl3. now you can see that its a really weird group. since we have started we have killed off at least i think at least five charecters for 2 people lol. the smart a rogue got killed. but we need one so he was aloud to make pretty much the same dude. the ranger had a a couple rogues die. and another guy who had a favored soul that died from an npc on or very first battle. we later grouped with the npc that killed him he also had his wizard dye cause he walked into a poor bar with rich clothes expecting to get into the group no problems. we ended up killing him. now we rped alot and because he thinks to much he got his charecter killed. anyway. since his last charecter died he hasnt been back lol. he has been playing with us from the start. but he got himself killed and hes ******.
now we started the campaign nowing what everyone was going to play and knowing that only 2 pcs were going to know each other. and were all evil. we have obviously had our share of squables and group coheasion is constantly being tested. from either poisoning. or smart mouths. or other things. but its been hard to keep a reason to have us together so we pretty much took one session to figure out why we were together and to rp stuff out. what im trying to get at is if your running a good or evil campaign unless everyone starts out with a completly unified goal there is always a chance to have problems
Lord Karsus
02-21-06, 11:22 PM ill give give you an idea of what happened in my present campaign. theres me a half-dragon fighterlvl2 a human rogue lvl2 or three i think a vampire clericlvl2 a rangerlvl3 a half orc barb fighterlvl3. now you can see that its a really weird group. since we have started we have killed off at least i think at least five charecters for 2 people lol. the smart a rogue got killed. but we need one so he was aloud to make pretty much the same dude. the ranger had a a couple rogues die. and another guy who had a favored soul that died from an npc on or very first battle. we later grouped with the npc that killed him he also had his wizard dye cause he walked into a poor bar with rich clothes expecting to get into the group no problems. we ended up killing him. now we rped alot and because he thinks to much he got his charecter killed. anyway. since his last charecter died he hasnt been back lol. he has been playing with us from the start. but he got himself killed and hes ******.
now we started the campaign nowing what everyone was going to play and knowing that only 2 pcs were going to know each other. and were all evil. we have obviously had our share of squables and group coheasion is constantly being tested. from either poisoning. or smart mouths. or other things. but its been hard to keep a reason to have us together so we pretty much took one session to figure out why we were together and to rp stuff out. what im trying to get at is if your running a good or evil campaign unless everyone starts out with a completly unified goal there is always a chance to have problems

-Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game?
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-22-06, 12:12 AM -Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game?
I've played in a couple games like that. To enjoy it you just need to look at the game differently. Competetive D&D can be as much fun as cooperative D&D, so long as everyone understands from the start that they are playing competetive, and not to take things personally. When you've got 4 other minds plotting against you rather than just the DM, it's a lot more challenging, and it can be really exciting to play it like that once in awhile. :)

On the other hand, when you're playing what people think is a cooperative game, and you start PKing... that sucks, and that does tend to create animosity. Everyone needs to know at the onset what they're getting into.
Mist of Shadows
02-22-06, 12:26 AM Enlightened self interest, just because your a black hearted fiend to the people that try to kill you doesn't mean that your friends and party members are people you put down. You put down hirelings and minions not friends. That being said the evil wizard just needs a way to not appear evil to the paladin and to be careful of what he does in front of the paladin. (also don't do stuff the paladin can trace back to you.)
And yes things can work, cult members have loot even if no one else is going to pay you for it. If the paladin says that you have to return the loot say that you can't be sure where it all came from. If he insists that the town needs it just nod and continue on, push him into any handy pit of lava at the end of the adventure unless you think he is worth the expensive. Often times evil wizards would do well to not be evil for a long while, (like multible levels before gaining power)
Vennettai
02-22-06, 12:53 AM -Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game?

playing like this is so fun cause its just like real life. cause i feel that in a good campaign you tend to stick together unaturally sometimes. because you have that one goal to take down the dms preset bbeg(i think thats the way yall put it). now with the evil campaign its more of what are we going to do. and that he has to react to what were doing. and since we dont have a unified goal from the start accept to get a group together. there is all sorts of stuff you can do . i mean the only real goal in the begining is to get the group together. then its how do we stay together. now sometimes its hard do to peoples smart remarks that get them poisoned or cursed and killed do to there parinoia. but its fun as heck.
now as for animosity after the game there is none imean as far as i can tell. we started this campaign like 2 months ago and weve had like 5 or 6 sessions. the only problem we did have was when a guy got his charecter killed thinking he could walk into a poor bar dressed rich and try and get into a group of theives and bloodthirsty killers. aint happaning.

On the other hand, when you're playing what people think is a cooperative game, and you start PKing... that sucks, and that does tend to create animosity. Everyone needs to know at the onset what they're getting into.

now as for people knowing if there is going to be pking going on if you dont realize that evil people quite litterally do what they want then your either nieve or dumb. he new there was a possibility that he could get killed by us. haha.

oh yeah and the pcs in an evil campaign usually work to create a bbeg. i mean the dm may have a few things set up but he trully cant over prepair simply for the fact we could all just want to go fishing one session.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Derrhyn 02-20-06, 04:35 PM	The majority of the posts in this forum (I'm a newbie,so don't hate me if I'm wrong) seem to be preoccupied with making a character as unique and special as possible. My question however is about how to avoid being so self-centered that you alienate the other players. Don't get me wrong, I love playing unique characters, and have played a few, but I sometimes find myself trying to be the center of atention all the time ending up with a campain that more or less revolves around me. My group has a mixed take on D&D. Two of them are as found of roleplaying as me, while the other two (and a few irregulars) get bored if they don't get to throw dices all the time. We are coming to terms with this problem though by starting a parralell adventure with me and the other two roleplayers, while we agree to tone down our worst quirks in the other adventure. I think that will take care of the first problem, but if somone has any advice, please tell me and I'll pass it on. The other problem is more complicated. The three of us that are starting the "roleplaying" adventure usually play our characters soo good that we often don't get along at all in the game. We have spent several sessions hunting each other and I've lost count of all the times we have killed each other. (and the other characters as well) All of wich is fun up to a point, but I'm worried that in a more unrestricted game we will simply leave each other and pursue our own interests. You might say it is up to the DM to provide an adventure where we are inclined/forced to stick together, but in my mind it is also a players responsibility to make a character that can actually fit in an a group. So I ask for advice. How do you make a group with a LG Paladin a CE Wizard and a N Druid work together? Or why would a dominating Socrerer put up with an ugly, stubborn rogue that doesn't abide her orders? Or if you want a more complicated one, Why would a mercenary fighter join a heroic, but foolhardy quest to eliminate an evil cult when there are no promise of rewards. Especially if the group seems to be torn with internal differences and lack of leadership. Thanks in advance. Derrhyn
Talen Lee 02-20-06, 05:35 PM	Simple. They're all carrying Cool Stuff, and when the group self-destructs, the guy who's a dedicated survivor will be on hand to pick it up and sell it. Easy money.
Twilly 02-20-06, 06:06 PM	Before you start creating your character, you should discuss with the group what kind of characters are going to be played. The DM should give you some clew about the kind of campaign he wants to play. Even better is to tell the DM what kind of game the players have in mind. - Everyone is part of Thievesguild. - All will be members of some knightly order. - Or we all have different reasons but the same goal. Try to help the DM, and try to make the game fun for everybody. Don't kill eachother unless you are certain that the other player wouldn't mind, even when it is good roleplaying. Nothing is as dear to a player as his/her character. Don't let the DM do all the work.
interpretivechaos 02-20-06, 07:32 PM	The first resort I would fall to is OOC contriving some sort of incident that puts everything in a positive light, an inside joke, friends/rivals from a young age, both highly respecting a tactical treatise by some long dead tactician. Once you have common ground you can become ICly be friends. Second, it may be that you can turn your hatred into competitiveness. Paladin:(charges goblin lines to great effect) Truly my cynical friend, you do underestimate the power of steel wielded by a righteous heart. Wizard: I do. (Launches a fireball into the midst of another clump) Third: Lies and Deceit always work to forge a party. "Of course the threat the cult of the Golden Blind is well worth eradicating. Plus, it's rumoured they extract a lot of tribute from the local merchants... Fourth: Perhaps they stick around to make life miserable for each other. For example, the Sorceress may get back at him for being irreverent and running off (With a spare magic missle or two), While the rogue accepts the hits and continues to taunt her by not listening to her one bit and setting various pranks on her to get back. As long as you can stop it from escalating with some IC reason or another, it should work Fifth: Finally Trust. Once you've adventured with each other, even if you know you might get a fish hook in your spell component pocket or a magic missle everytime you run off, at least you can trust them to kill the goblin about to throw a spear at you. You might still hate their guts, but as long as you OOCly make sure you ICly don't escalate it, it should be amusing roleplaying material without going to far. Just take the blow with a chuckle in your eye and a plan on your next prank/ revenge it shouldn't be to bad.
Harrow Blade 02-20-06, 09:51 PM	In order to get a group of greatly differing alignments to work and stay together you need something more than the allure of adventure and riches. The Paladin needs a reason not to smite the wizard when the wizard kills the captives to save time. the wizard needs a reason not to drop a fire ball into the melee containing the Paladin while the druid needs a reason not to wander off into the wilderness and leave the two city slickers at each others throats in the forrest. An example of this sort of reason may be the paladin has sworn an oath to protect the mage before he realised the mage was evil. The mage may need a holy warrior to help broach the defenses of an old temple in order to sack the treasury. Perhaps the druid belives that he needs the help of the other two to overcome a threat he cannot del with alone. In any group of conflicting alignments there is going to be tension and arguments. No one is going to be happy with the others all the time. There will be a lack of trust but if they survive a few encounters together there may be a grudging respect that grows. For these example groups to stay together they need to feel that they 'need' each other to survive and complete thier chosen task.
WhrenKehrsyn 02-21-06, 02:35 AM	Well, I think that working with the other players and the DM is very important during character creation for that very reason. It can be very hard when you have characters with opposing world views, and who in all reality should not be doing anything together. This also helps with you not claiming too much of the spotlight but rather it being on the group as a whole more often. Ive also found that discussing the type of game and the styles of the various players before the game starts is very helpful. Some people like to really get into the RP, and some people like to have powerful characters, and it can be difficult to cater to both without sitting together and discussing as a group what a comfortable balance is of the two. I would suggest sitting down with the group and discussing it with them now, its never too late, and as group you can come up with some things to make the team more cohesive.
Lord Karsus 02-21-06, 02:58 AM	-The best way to avoid major problems like this is to talk with the DM before making your character. Nothing ruins the game more than a party consisting of: LG Human Paladin CE Drow Wizard CN Elf Cleric of Corellon Larethian NE Illithid Psion N Doppelganger Rogue -There is nothing wrong with your characters hating each other's guts, but making sure that the party has some chance of being an actual party really helps make the game a (somewhat) success (so far).
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-21-06, 03:07 AM	Why would a mercenary fighter join a heroic, but foolhardy quest to eliminate an evil cult when there are no promise of rewards. Especially if the group seems to be torn with internal differences and lack of leadership. Maybe the aforementioned mercenary fighter isn't actually a mercenary - maybe that's just a cover, and he's truly a betrayed ex-member of the cult out for payback on the cult and its god, with the ultimate goal of killing the god outright - and he joins the group of good adventurers because they're doing similar things (though for different reasons), and he feels he has a better chance of achieving his goals with help. This was my character ages ago, and he stayed with his group of heroes for several years. ;) (Though he didn't bother with the cover story, he was upfront.) The way he got the party to keep him around was by simply being too useful to pass up - he understood the enemy better than they did, knew the counters to their tactics, and he was blackhearted enough to take care of business the party was too squeamish to get their own hands dirty with. His attitude was basically "Look, you don't like my methods, you don't have to adopt them. But I'll watch your back as long as you watch mine and we're bringing down Malkormite temples. Just remember I get to kill Malkormus in the end, and I'll crush anyone that gets between me and him."
Vennettai 02-21-06, 07:05 AM	ill give give you an idea of what happened in my present campaign. theres me a half-dragon fighterlvl2 a human rogue lvl2 or three i think a vampire clericlvl2 a rangerlvl3 a half orc barb fighterlvl3. now you can see that its a really weird group. since we have started we have killed off at least i think at least five charecters for 2 people lol. the smart a rogue got killed. but we need one so he was aloud to make pretty much the same dude. the ranger had a a couple rogues die. and another guy who had a favored soul that died from an npc on or very first battle. we later grouped with the npc that killed him he also had his wizard dye cause he walked into a poor bar with rich clothes expecting to get into the group no problems. we ended up killing him. now we rped alot and because he thinks to much he got his charecter killed. anyway. since his last charecter died he hasnt been back lol. he has been playing with us from the start. but he got himself killed and hes ******. now we started the campaign nowing what everyone was going to play and knowing that only 2 pcs were going to know each other. and were all evil. we have obviously had our share of squables and group coheasion is constantly being tested. from either poisoning. or smart mouths. or other things. but its been hard to keep a reason to have us together so we pretty much took one session to figure out why we were together and to rp stuff out. what im trying to get at is if your running a good or evil campaign unless everyone starts out with a completly unified goal there is always a chance to have problems
Lord Karsus 02-21-06, 11:22 PM	ill give give you an idea of what happened in my present campaign. theres me a half-dragon fighterlvl2 a human rogue lvl2 or three i think a vampire clericlvl2 a rangerlvl3 a half orc barb fighterlvl3. now you can see that its a really weird group. since we have started we have killed off at least i think at least five charecters for 2 people lol. the smart a rogue got killed. but we need one so he was aloud to make pretty much the same dude. the ranger had a a couple rogues die. and another guy who had a favored soul that died from an npc on or very first battle. we later grouped with the npc that killed him he also had his wizard dye cause he walked into a poor bar with rich clothes expecting to get into the group no problems. we ended up killing him. now we rped alot and because he thinks to much he got his charecter killed. anyway. since his last charecter died he hasnt been back lol. he has been playing with us from the start. but he got himself killed and hes ******. now we started the campaign nowing what everyone was going to play and knowing that only 2 pcs were going to know each other. and were all evil. we have obviously had our share of squables and group coheasion is constantly being tested. from either poisoning. or smart mouths. or other things. but its been hard to keep a reason to have us together so we pretty much took one session to figure out why we were together and to rp stuff out. what im trying to get at is if your running a good or evil campaign unless everyone starts out with a completly unified goal there is always a chance to have problems -Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game?
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-22-06, 12:12 AM	-Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game? I've played in a couple games like that. To enjoy it you just need to look at the game differently. Competetive D&D can be as much fun as cooperative D&D, so long as everyone understands from the start that they are playing competetive, and not to take things personally. When you've got 4 other minds plotting against you rather than just the DM, it's a lot more challenging, and it can be really exciting to play it like that once in awhile. :) On the other hand, when you're playing what people think is a cooperative game, and you start PKing... that sucks, and that does tend to create animosity. Everyone needs to know at the onset what they're getting into.
Mist of Shadows 02-22-06, 12:26 AM	Enlightened self interest, just because your a black hearted fiend to the people that try to kill you doesn't mean that your friends and party members are people you put down. You put down hirelings and minions not friends. That being said the evil wizard just needs a way to not appear evil to the paladin and to be careful of what he does in front of the paladin. (also don't do stuff the paladin can trace back to you.) And yes things can work, cult members have loot even if no one else is going to pay you for it. If the paladin says that you have to return the loot say that you can't be sure where it all came from. If he insists that the town needs it just nod and continue on, push him into any handy pit of lava at the end of the adventure unless you think he is worth the expensive. Often times evil wizards would do well to not be evil for a long while, (like multible levels before gaining power)
Vennettai 02-22-06, 12:53 AM	-Maybe, since I've never been in a campaign with evil characters, I don't fully understand it. But, how is it fun to play in a campaign like this, where you have to worry about enemies and fellow PCs killing you? Doesn't it create animocity after the game? playing like this is so fun cause its just like real life. cause i feel that in a good campaign you tend to stick together unaturally sometimes. because you have that one goal to take down the dms preset bbeg(i think thats the way yall put it). now with the evil campaign its more of what are we going to do. and that he has to react to what were doing. and since we dont have a unified goal from the start accept to get a group together. there is all sorts of stuff you can do . i mean the only real goal in the begining is to get the group together. then its how do we stay together. now sometimes its hard do to peoples smart remarks that get them poisoned or cursed and killed do to there parinoia. but its fun as heck. now as for animosity after the game there is none imean as far as i can tell. we started this campaign like 2 months ago and weve had like 5 or 6 sessions. the only problem we did have was when a guy got his charecter killed thinking he could walk into a poor bar dressed rich and try and get into a group of theives and bloodthirsty killers. aint happaning. On the other hand, when you're playing what people think is a cooperative game, and you start PKing... that sucks, and that does tend to create animosity. Everyone needs to know at the onset what they're getting into. now as for people knowing if there is going to be pking going on if you dont realize that evil people quite litterally do what they want then your either nieve or dumb. he new there was a possibility that he could get killed by us. haha. oh yeah and the pcs in an evil campaign usually work to create a bbeg. i mean the dm may have a few things set up but he trully cant over prepair simply for the fact we could all just want to go fishing one session.