Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deitus 10-02-03, 11:08 AM	Hey there, I'm not sure if this is supposed to go here or in one of the thinktanks, but it is about a form of character development. I have a new campaign world that I am thinking about introducing to my players. They have heard me talk about it in bits and peices, but aren't really in the loop yet. I was thinking about having all the players, 5 of 'em, start the game in a small backwoods town. one that is rarely visited by merchants and other traveller. The wil all be young friends who have decided that they would like to get out of thei small town, for whatever reason, and see the world. I want to start all the players off as basic comoners, kind of like the children of farmers, woodsmen, barkeeps, whatever. The players will start with only a basic concept of the type of character class that they want to pursue. The only classes that players that will get any "extra" abilities are the ones that want to pursue one of the magical classes, either divine or arcane. All players will start with their standard stat rolls for their races, 1d6 HP, and a handfull of skill points, no feats yet. These skill points must be spent in skills that represent how the chaeracters were raised. The son of a woodsman, would have ranks in say survival, knowledge nature, climb (just examples). Each character would be proficient with a short list of weapons that are suitable for their background, this list would have to be something that is totally decided by myself, The DM. A character that is going tho be heading down one of the magical professions, there would have to be some sign of the talent or gift in them at a early point. characters who want to play one of the arcane classes would get the benefit of one or two cantrips, that are cast in a sorceror style, maybe a couple times a day at most. A similar thing would be there for the character that wants to be a divine practioner, maybe one or two orisons a few times a day. These spells are just enough of a benefit to the group that surrvival will be aided, but there is no real long term benefit to the magic using classes. All players would start out from their small town, on their first adventure, going to the next large town, maybe having a couple of dangerous encounters. The players would be collecting Xp for their actions, as normal, then once they collect a small but set amount of XP, the characters can begin to pursue the class of their choice. I want the players to learn about themselves and at the same time learn about the world around them. I think it will be a workable idea, and will be interesting for the players. But I can't see myself making use of this system more than once, the novelty will probably wear off. Has anyone done something similar? Anyone have any input or ideas? Am I in the right area? Thanks Deitus
Alrunic Silverfyre 10-02-03, 01:29 PM	Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe I have just found one of the greatest gaming ideas ever created. I simply love it. I think this is something that every DM should do with his players. It makes them think about survival more but it also helps build a character basis between themselves and the other characters. They are mere commoners who are starting out in the world and they will face many hardships before becoming heroes. I love the idea that they will have to learn what it means to truly struggle to gain the training of a fighter or a wizard. It makes so much sense to me it is unbelieveable. And this makes the players use their minds more. Simply brilliant...I for one congradulate you and ask if I may borrow the idea so that I may use it for my own players. This is a well thought out scenario and I hope your players enjoy it as much as I do.
Campeador 10-02-03, 02:58 PM	It's indeed a great idea and something I've thought about as well. But I would have them pick one of the NPC classes to start with, and go from there. So you could pick something that fits your background and may aid you later on as well. But very cool idea and definitely one that's worth introducing...:):)
Mordriana the Blood 10-02-03, 03:14 PM	Sounds like a good idea on the surface. However, one thing you must keep on mind. A friend and fellow DM decided to do this in his game. The problem was that it totally screwed up the CR and experience systems in favor of the monsters. NPC levels are generally woefully underpowered, and the PCs in this campaign learned it the hard way, and had a frustratingly difficult time "rising to the challenge." You get fewer experience for monsters that you have a harder time defeating, just because you have levels tied up in commoner, or adept, or whatever. My brother who participated in the said campaign just said to me,"It's really retarted." Just try to keep that in mind before you do it.
Mobius 10-02-03, 04:58 PM	I’m currently running a campaign where the characters started out as commoners who had been captured by orcs. Within a couple of sessions, they had escaped from the orcs and learned regular PC classes. I had the PC class replace their commoner class level rather than making them multi-classed commoners. Things that worked: - I had some of the characters manifest their new class abilities in-game. One commoner felt a barbarian rage rising in him mid-battle, while another felt the stirring of sorcery during a high-stress situation. - Since commoners start with 1d4 hit points and 2 skill points/level, I simply tacked any additional PC class hit points and skill points onto those that they already had. - I’ve never seen players so happy to become 1st level PC’s. Being a commoner makes them reallize just how above-average 1st level PC’s are. - Don't bother having them develop detailed backgrounds until they become PC's. It's too easy for them to become accidentally killed as commoners, and I hate for players to waste a burst of creative background-writing energy. Things that didn’t work: - I originally said that not all PC classes would be initially available for the commoners to learn. After all, you can’t become a wizard or monk with no mentor to teach you. The players revolted against this idea. Eventually, I had them list 2 PC classes that their commoner was interested in adopting, and I promised them that one of the 2 classes would be initially available to them. - I introduced a convoluted training schedule for the characters to slowly learn their skills, feats, and spells as they transformed from commoners. This became a book-keeping nightmare. It’s better to keep it simple. Mobius
Deitus 10-02-03, 10:58 PM	Hey there, I'm glad you all liked it and had some feed back for me. My buddy and I came up with it while talking over double-doubles at the timmies. Use it if you want, and let me know what comes about and any changes you can think of. Now some of the problems that were mentioned are very valid and I'm making note of them. The one about the CR's becoming skewed is actually a fairly easy thing to deal with. Common people often have more common sense than foolhardy adventurers who consider the three options available to them, charge it, surround it, or sneak up on it, often forgetting the very important option of getting the hell out of dodge. People who know that they are up against possible creatures of legend, which in some cases an orc may be just that to them, don't always think that they will be able to handle them. Avoidance is always an option that scores XP just as good as killing, somethimes even more. There is also the option that the dm has of Nerfing encounters, letting the PC's do a little more than they normally could for the sake of the story and the overall adventure. About the class availablility, I'm going to be a little leniant on that one. In my world there is a common bond amongst most Good aligned warriors, as they were taught, so they must teach. This isn't totally worked out yet, but it will enable the PC's to learn swordsmanship fairly easily. Churchs are always eager for new members, and the arcane practitioners must find a Wizard if they are going to go down that path, or trhey can "choose" to go down the road of the sorceror. As for Monks, They are part of the regular religions, more western in flavor, but trained to fight unarmed. therefore the monk wannabe can go to one of the local churches to become a monk. I hope you all will comment on my above comments and we maybe able to flesh something out that I can use in the future. Deitus
bradipus 10-03-03, 05:07 AM	An old 2e module had this concept implemented inside. If i remember correctly its name was " Treasure Isle" The PC were 0 level commoners and for each action they performed, they receive a "point" in a playable class, (a point in rogue if you tried to pick a lock..etc.) At the end of the adventure, the highest score you achieved,represented the class you choose. I've played that module many years ago,and it was sort of fun.. Bradipus
Gadodel 10-03-03, 05:36 AM	I've done this numerous times. It works really well, especially if one has the right group of players. It is definitely something to do if you've got a group looking for new challenges. :cool:
Ranthanas 10-03-03, 11:17 AM	The simple way of doing it is that you start off as level 1 commoners (and run from combat). You start at -500 exps. At -300, you become a level 1 in a normal NPC class, relevant to your actions and desired class (tweak the adept spell list for casters, expert for rogues, warrior for fightery people and tweaked aristocrat for rangers and rogues (monks don't really fit at all)). At 0 exp you become level 1 characters in line with your previous choices. The DM needs to take a lot of care with commoner PCs. (Variant: at -300, you can become a level 2 commoner and at 0 you can become a level 2 [NPC class] or level 3 commoner- but always have to roll HD if you do this...)
Pheros 10-06-03, 02:51 AM	Personally, I like the idea of having the player's start out as commoners. As a DM for a group of VERY green players I think it might have helped them out in getting used to some of the rules and would have allowed them to learn that running away is always an option. I also think that this method of starting a game would be beneficial to any fledling DM's who may have to learn how so of the rules will actually work out during game play. As to the reference back to the 2e module, it kind of reminds me of playing the Warhammer Fantasy RPG. For anyone who has never encountered it, it calls for die rolls to determine what your starting class is going to be and then lets the player progress along a path that is somehow related to the one you started with. It's not actually that bad of a way to go about it, but you need a group of fairly experienced players to make it work. Sometimes a new player will find extremely difficult to play a class. Otherwise it's a pretty solid idea for starting out a game. Pheros
Trydan 10-06-03, 03:39 AM	I agree. To start novices at higher levels is risky, there are so many new rules, and it can be overwhelming. When we switched from 2.Ed to 3.Ed rules, we lept in at level 4. With hindsight, I wished we'd started at level 0, as being suggested here. Also, I like the idea of starting at negative experience points, and working ones way up to "0", and hence level 1. The idea of having an NPC class, which disappears at level 1, to be replaced with a PC class is very appealing.
Dungeon Master 10-09-03, 07:46 PM	A few years ago I ran a campaign where the character started as a level 1 commoner. After 500 xp he progressed to level 1 warrior. After another 500 xp he became a level 1 fighter. His character level was still 1, it was like he was replacing classes, not adding new ones. I think he ended up with like 2 more skill points than normal, but for that 1000 xp, its not a problem. All-in-all, he really enjoyed starting as a commoner because it made him appreciate being a 1st level fighter. Once he gained that level of fighter, he felt like he had truly learned how to fight.