Gaining skills and HP during play... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gaining skills and HP during play... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JemyM
12-21-03, 08:47 AM I was considering letting my players "teach" himself skills from his upcoming level already before he actually levelled up.

That means, if he practices a certain skill, that would realisticly give him more skill in that particular skill, then I could give him an extra rank in that skill, but one less skillpoint on his next levelup.

Also I was considering letting my players "train" up to his total amount of hitpoints, if he only gains a smaller number of hp on his levelup...

Doing this might result in a more "dynamic" progression than simply using levelup as the only way to become better.

Thoughts?
LiXinjian
12-22-03, 09:35 AM I think overall it will distract from the game and provide very little benefit.

It is probably best to simply let them roleplay the training/learning process as best as they can during down times, and stick to the rules when it comes to game effects. Blurring the lines of levelling up is probably not going to yield much good, other than an increased sense of realism. And a very minor one at that. Also, what happens is the character doesn't get to fully increase his hit points (for instance) before he gains a second level?? How much can he fall behind in terms of "hit point advancement"?

Furthermore, you'll be avoiding a lot of arguments by sticking to the rules. No "I wouldn't be dead if I had gained all those hp when I levelled up, like I should have!", or "I can't take this PrC right now 'cause my base attack bonus isn't on par with my fighter level".

Plus, you won't have to adjust your monsters (and their CR) so they too "benefit" from this type of progression.

There's nothing wrong with level ups as they are. By introducing your special rule, you'll simply be adding more mini-levels between levels, so to speak. In the end, the level ladder remains as long, only much more segmented.

Just my opinion.

Oh, and you'd probably be getting more response if this thread were posted in the DMing forum..
JemyM
12-22-03, 12:51 PM Just so the background is there. The members of our group have played rpgs for almost 20 years, and together for almost 10 years. During all this time we have never played a level based system. Most of the players opinions about D&D comes from computer games, and lets just say that their opinion about D&D isnt on the good side.
After I got the FR book in my hands, and fell in love with the world, I have planned to give it one more attempt, this time trying to focus on the things that my group likes, and tune down the things that they "believe" they dont like with the D&D system. One of theese things are the level system.

What I have planned for the hitpoints is the following:
The players will start at level 7, using the "average" hp system. This means that the Paladin (as example) starts with 10+5+6+5+5+6+5+Con Modifiers. With his Constitution he starts with 56 hitpoints.
After each 'event' that I consider them to have been physically active, I could offer them to ad their hitdice, divided by two, and add it to their total. He can continue to do this until they reached his full total of 84 hitpoints, or reached level 8. When he reached level 8 he rolls a dice, as normal 1-10, but now he can start to go for his limit of 94 instead.

It would look like this:
Paladin Starts at: 56 ...but can reach: 84
Cleric starts at: 55 ...but can reach: 77
Ranger starts at: 41 ...but can reach: 61
Wizard starts at: 40 ...but can reach: 49

Two good things:
a) I can always give my players a chance to increase their "prowess" and still not break their level limit.
b) A chance to still reach the points he "lost" when the 10 sided dice ended up as "1".

Youre right... I should go to the dm forum with this instead.
LiXinjian
12-22-03, 08:05 PM Well, if your players have been complaining about the levelling up system, then I guess you have all the reasons in the world to give your idea a try. When I posted my reply, I considered the average D&D gamer who's familiar with the rules and used to them.

Your situation is much different, so, in that case, let me review my position and state that you should give your idea a try. But it'll be more work for you. Give a few thoughts to HD-dependant spells and effects, such as sleep and how they'll work out under your system. As far as monster hit points go, sticking with the average hp system will probably be enough.

After each 'event' that I consider them to have been physically active, I could offer them to ad their hitdice, divided by two, and add it to their total.
Have to assume you won't be dungeon-crawling much, otherwise your system will quickly become useless, since they'll always be performing physical feats. But with such a mature group of roleplayers, I tend to expect a lot more talk than dice rolling.

On a side note, you seem to view increases in hit points as an increase in body build, or stamina. My friends and I tend to view them more like an increased capacility to soak damage. It's not that a dagger does less damage as a player goes up in level, it's more that as a player gets more experienced, he learns to sustain more damage, and damage that would have previously seriously wounded him now is just a glancing blow (through a combination of stamina, reflex moves, etc.)

Let us know how things work out after a few gaming sessions.
JemyM
12-23-03, 04:08 AM Originally posted by LiXinjian
Well, if your players have been complaining about the levelling up system, then I guess you have all the reasons in the world to give your idea a try. When I posted my reply, I considered the average D&D gamer who's familiar with the rules and used to them.
Your situation is much different, so, in that case, let me review my position and state that you should give your idea a try. But it'll be more work for you. Give a few thoughts to HD-dependant spells and effects, such as sleep and how they'll work out under your system. As far as monster hit points go, sticking with the average hp system will probably be enough.

When I said "add a hitdice", I did not meant that they where suddently considered "8HD" aka "8th level". They are still 7HD, just with a few more points to spend. Sleep and HD-dependent spells and effects would work just as normal. :)

Originally posted by LiXinjian
Have to assume you won't be dungeon-crawling much, otherwise your system will quickly become useless, since they'll always be performing physical feats. But with such a mature group of roleplayers, I tend to expect a lot more talk than dice rolling.

Actually, I will have difficulties feeding my players as many fights a levelup demands. The rulebook recomends about 13-14 fights before they can levelup, but its not rare that an entire campaign can go by without more than 3-6 fights in my group. When combat happens, its more a "wake up" call, not meant to be any real challange.
Most of their xp will be gained for calm solutions of fights, such as sneaking by, or talking by an encounter.
I wish to remove the feel that they must KILL to gain experience. KILL in most cases, are the lesser option, unless you are dealing with a mindless blob or are far over the edge with an beholder...

Originally posted by LiXinjian
On a side note, you seem to view increases in hit points as an increase in body build, or stamina. My friends and I tend to view them more like an increased capacility to soak damage. It's not that a dagger does less damage as a player goes up in level, it's more that as a player gets more experienced, he learns to sustain more damage, and damage that would have previously seriously wounded him now is just a glancing blow (through a combination of stamina, reflex moves, etc.)
Let us know how things work out after a few gaming sessions.

Someone once told me a philosophy that Hit Points was not equal to Body Points. Instead they represent "the amount of time you can fight without problems". If you get a nasty hit you get a wound, or if you fall beneath the 0 border you have also been struck with a strong blow, but when you just loose 2 of 135 hp, then it could be more about lost morale, or distress.

Again, its a way for me to reduce one of the complaints they have, that a fighter can be driven over by a truck in a early level, while a Wizard level 20 can survive a steady mace to the head.

Best Regards
JemyM
LiXinjian
12-23-03, 01:05 PM As a DM, I never quite abided by the rules for experience. 14 encounters is a LOT. I give probably as much XP for fights than I give for roleplaying itself, and my players level up (at least in the early levels) every other session or every three sessions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JemyM 12-21-03, 08:47 AM	I was considering letting my players "teach" himself skills from his upcoming level already before he actually levelled up. That means, if he practices a certain skill, that would realisticly give him more skill in that particular skill, then I could give him an extra rank in that skill, but one less skillpoint on his next levelup. Also I was considering letting my players "train" up to his total amount of hitpoints, if he only gains a smaller number of hp on his levelup... Doing this might result in a more "dynamic" progression than simply using levelup as the only way to become better. Thoughts?
LiXinjian 12-22-03, 09:35 AM	I think overall it will distract from the game and provide very little benefit. It is probably best to simply let them roleplay the training/learning process as best as they can during down times, and stick to the rules when it comes to game effects. Blurring the lines of levelling up is probably not going to yield much good, other than an increased sense of realism. And a very minor one at that. Also, what happens is the character doesn't get to fully increase his hit points (for instance) before he gains a second level?? How much can he fall behind in terms of "hit point advancement"? Furthermore, you'll be avoiding a lot of arguments by sticking to the rules. No "I wouldn't be dead if I had gained all those hp when I levelled up, like I should have!", or "I can't take this PrC right now 'cause my base attack bonus isn't on par with my fighter level". Plus, you won't have to adjust your monsters (and their CR) so they too "benefit" from this type of progression. There's nothing wrong with level ups as they are. By introducing your special rule, you'll simply be adding more mini-levels between levels, so to speak. In the end, the level ladder remains as long, only much more segmented. Just my opinion. Oh, and you'd probably be getting more response if this thread were posted in the DMing forum..
JemyM 12-22-03, 12:51 PM	Just so the background is there. The members of our group have played rpgs for almost 20 years, and together for almost 10 years. During all this time we have never played a level based system. Most of the players opinions about D&D comes from computer games, and lets just say that their opinion about D&D isnt on the good side. After I got the FR book in my hands, and fell in love with the world, I have planned to give it one more attempt, this time trying to focus on the things that my group likes, and tune down the things that they "believe" they dont like with the D&D system. One of theese things are the level system. What I have planned for the hitpoints is the following: The players will start at level 7, using the "average" hp system. This means that the Paladin (as example) starts with 10+5+6+5+5+6+5+Con Modifiers. With his Constitution he starts with 56 hitpoints. After each 'event' that I consider them to have been physically active, I could offer them to ad their hitdice, divided by two, and add it to their total. He can continue to do this until they reached his full total of 84 hitpoints, or reached level 8. When he reached level 8 he rolls a dice, as normal 1-10, but now he can start to go for his limit of 94 instead. It would look like this: Paladin Starts at: 56 ...but can reach: 84 Cleric starts at: 55 ...but can reach: 77 Ranger starts at: 41 ...but can reach: 61 Wizard starts at: 40 ...but can reach: 49 Two good things: a) I can always give my players a chance to increase their "prowess" and still not break their level limit. b) A chance to still reach the points he "lost" when the 10 sided dice ended up as "1". Youre right... I should go to the dm forum with this instead.
LiXinjian 12-22-03, 08:05 PM	Well, if your players have been complaining about the levelling up system, then I guess you have all the reasons in the world to give your idea a try. When I posted my reply, I considered the average D&D gamer who's familiar with the rules and used to them. Your situation is much different, so, in that case, let me review my position and state that you should give your idea a try. But it'll be more work for you. Give a few thoughts to HD-dependant spells and effects, such as sleep and how they'll work out under your system. As far as monster hit points go, sticking with the average hp system will probably be enough. After each 'event' that I consider them to have been physically active, I could offer them to ad their hitdice, divided by two, and add it to their total. Have to assume you won't be dungeon-crawling much, otherwise your system will quickly become useless, since they'll always be performing physical feats. But with such a mature group of roleplayers, I tend to expect a lot more talk than dice rolling. On a side note, you seem to view increases in hit points as an increase in body build, or stamina. My friends and I tend to view them more like an increased capacility to soak damage. It's not that a dagger does less damage as a player goes up in level, it's more that as a player gets more experienced, he learns to sustain more damage, and damage that would have previously seriously wounded him now is just a glancing blow (through a combination of stamina, reflex moves, etc.) Let us know how things work out after a few gaming sessions.
JemyM 12-23-03, 04:08 AM	Originally posted by LiXinjian Well, if your players have been complaining about the levelling up system, then I guess you have all the reasons in the world to give your idea a try. When I posted my reply, I considered the average D&D gamer who's familiar with the rules and used to them. Your situation is much different, so, in that case, let me review my position and state that you should give your idea a try. But it'll be more work for you. Give a few thoughts to HD-dependant spells and effects, such as sleep and how they'll work out under your system. As far as monster hit points go, sticking with the average hp system will probably be enough. When I said "add a hitdice", I did not meant that they where suddently considered "8HD" aka "8th level". They are still 7HD, just with a few more points to spend. Sleep and HD-dependent spells and effects would work just as normal. :) Originally posted by LiXinjian Have to assume you won't be dungeon-crawling much, otherwise your system will quickly become useless, since they'll always be performing physical feats. But with such a mature group of roleplayers, I tend to expect a lot more talk than dice rolling. Actually, I will have difficulties feeding my players as many fights a levelup demands. The rulebook recomends about 13-14 fights before they can levelup, but its not rare that an entire campaign can go by without more than 3-6 fights in my group. When combat happens, its more a "wake up" call, not meant to be any real challange. Most of their xp will be gained for calm solutions of fights, such as sneaking by, or talking by an encounter. I wish to remove the feel that they must KILL to gain experience. KILL in most cases, are the lesser option, unless you are dealing with a mindless blob or are far over the edge with an beholder... Originally posted by LiXinjian On a side note, you seem to view increases in hit points as an increase in body build, or stamina. My friends and I tend to view them more like an increased capacility to soak damage. It's not that a dagger does less damage as a player goes up in level, it's more that as a player gets more experienced, he learns to sustain more damage, and damage that would have previously seriously wounded him now is just a glancing blow (through a combination of stamina, reflex moves, etc.) Let us know how things work out after a few gaming sessions. Someone once told me a philosophy that Hit Points was not equal to Body Points. Instead they represent "the amount of time you can fight without problems". If you get a nasty hit you get a wound, or if you fall beneath the 0 border you have also been struck with a strong blow, but when you just loose 2 of 135 hp, then it could be more about lost morale, or distress. Again, its a way for me to reduce one of the complaints they have, that a fighter can be driven over by a truck in a early level, while a Wizard level 20 can survive a steady mace to the head. Best Regards JemyM
LiXinjian 12-23-03, 01:05 PM	As a DM, I never quite abided by the rules for experience. 14 encounters is a LOT. I give probably as much XP for fights than I give for roleplaying itself, and my players level up (at least in the early levels) every other session or every three sessions.