Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Godeskian 09-13-04, 08:10 AM	Heyho, I am about to embark on a journey using a thayite necromancer of some design (please go to the COB if you have any tips on how to actually build this sucker :P) This particular mortal has three main long term goals in mind, for himself and for his party. The first, is to survive long enough to become undead. At the end of this journey is lichdom, and maybe, (wishes permitting) Draco-Lichdom. The second is to (once we are well into Epic Level) see if i and the party cannot, erm, deal, with Zass Tam, adn convince him to place Thay under new management. Ours. And finally, or not so finally, He has no patron deity as he considers the deities of the various aspects of death to be like spoilt children, fighting each other for scraps of power while ignoring the true source of power. He worships Death directly, and I have it on good authority from the DM, that sometime during the campaign, Death itself will be seeking a servant from the material plane. I intend to be that servant With those three caveats in mind, I am ready to rumble, but my problem appears to be the fact that I'll be the sole evil character in the party of neutrals and goods. Now, I've always believed that intelligent evil is to be played with vigor and relish, as there is no reason that evil and good characters can't co-exist. What's more, I find the concept that to be 'evil' one has to be incapable of sincere friendship, loyalty, companionship or love, to be somewhat narrow minded. So comes the challenge, how to play a character who has no morals whatsoever, who lacks the capacity for empathy with the world at large, (believing feverently in the maxim, 'Everything will die one day, and today appears to be your lucky day') but understands that he cannot achieve this by himself. he is perfectly willing to aid and defend his comrades tot he best of his abilities, because he likes them as much as he needs them to do the same for him, but at the same time, he is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination Thoughts?
Aluroon 09-13-04, 08:02 PM	Very Intestesting idea. Just out of curesosity, what level are you starting as, because if its under 6 remeber that your character will just be an apprenace, not a true red wizard yet, and will be subject to the whims of those he serves (and belive, he serves, the alternative is not good). Lichdom is intesting to play in a campain. Your character will problubly go off for like a year once you attain all the requirements to constuct his phy and reseach what what is required to become a lich. You may want to have your "Good" comrades away at this time, as from what I understand the prosess of becoming a lich is rather bad...I would imagen that it requires the sacrifce of virgin childern, ect, ect, ect...generally evil evil acts your fellows will undoutidy object to. Hopefully the new book on undead will give some more info on the topic I belive it comes out withen a couple of months. taken down the Zulkar of Nercomancy may be a bit much, or a bit to little, based on how the embodyment of death thing turns out. I dont know, its ur campain. Personally I wish my dm were more open to new ideas such as that, as of right now he's a bit rough around the edges. I agree with your statment about evil being unable to love ect, being rather close minded. If your playing FR then the former leaders of Darkhold, Semmemon and his lover are a great example of how untrue this belief is. Evil is usually just how far your character is willing to go. If you can try to convence your dm to let you use the 3.0 version of the red wizard prestige class. I know min/maxing isnt really what this board is about, but the class really just blows in 3.5, and it is almost pointless to take it, ass it really drops your abillitys. What are your two prohibited schools going to be? Again, I really like your idea, and think it could work out very very well. Best of luck. Aluroon P.S. If you find it in your heart, maybe you could post a campain journal. I really enjoy seeing what people are doing in there campains, as it tends to spark my brain into working.
Mancer 09-13-04, 09:45 PM	I think the 3.5 Red Wizard is just as good as the 3.0 version. Yes, Spell power got gimped a bit, but it was pretty bad before. Also, don't forget that if you want to qualify for the Archmage Prc (which most Wizards do, if only as a status symbol,) you need to wait until Wiz9 to pick up Red Wizard so that you can qualify for the 5th level spells known for Archmage. On a more character developmenty note, I think an evil PC in a good party can be a lot of fun. One of the players in our group inevitably plays a fighter/rogue/assassin vampire. He doesn't always use that exact class combo, and he has only successfully become a vampire with one character, but that's pretty much the gist of what he does. Just as inevitably, our party ends up clashing over this. On one occassion the party Paladin ended up as a Blackguard, on another the party Druid was unceremoniously death attacked for aquiring an item the Assassin desired when we were dividing up some loot, and on another occassion his greed led him to a bad end involving a Drowish wizard and an apparently unguarded laboratory: he was missed. I'm not advocating total party infighting, because the few times that has happened it wasn't any fun for us, but player rivalries and even out-and-out hatred can be a lot of fun as long as the players can separate character from real life person and as long as everyone is mature enough to handle being dropped to -10 over a petty disagreement. Of course, as long as you aren't the "sacrifice children for fun" variety of bad guy, and as long as there isn't a PC with detect evil quick at hand, this type of conflict may never come up. Also, even a lawful good Paladin may not be so quick to Holy Avenger someone just for being evil, especially if that someone is a person they have travelled with and been friends with for years.
swilliamajackson 09-14-04, 09:51 AM	What alignment are you exactly? LE, NE or CE? In the very back of the Book of Vile Darkness, it actually has a little section of playing evil PC's in both a fully evil party and in a mixed party. Personally, I look at Evil as not the opposite of good, but as a different way to look at things. An evil person can love just as a good person can...take Hitler for instance, he loved his girlfriend/wife yet he was a pretty mean guy. Evil is all about how you look at things. I plan on playing a LE Necromancer in the next campaign I can find to play in, but I'm playing him as a kind of anti-hero...I still believe in helping out the weak and protecting the innocent, I just go about it in an abhorently violent and evil way and if I happen to slaughter the group of children I was trying to protect...it's not gonna bother me all too much. Anyway, that's just my two cents about playing evil characters.
Godeskian 09-16-04, 07:13 AM	hey all, Sorry i've been gone for a few days Aluroon said Just out of curesosity, what level are you starting as, because if its under 6 remeber that your character will just be an apprenace, not a true red wizard yet, and will be subject to the whims of those he serves (and belive, he serves, the alternative is not good). 5th level, but he isn't a red wizard, he's a Necromancer who just happens to live in Thay. Given his distaste for the Zulkirs, no red wizard will have him :D Lichdom is intesting to play in a campain. Your character will problubly go off for like a year once you attain all the requirements to constuct his phy and reseach what what is required to become a lich. You may want to have your "Good" comrades away at this time, as from what I understand the prosess of becoming a lich is rather bad...I would imagen that it requires the sacrifce of virgin childern, ect, ect, ect...generally evil evil acts your fellows will undoutidy object to. Hopefully the new book on undead will give some more info on the topic I belive it comes out withen a couple of months. Actually, one of the big advantages of being allowed to use Necromancy, beyond the grave is that it presents a more neutral side to necromancy. There is a process in their for Lichdom that does not involve a single evil act, as it considers lichdom merely a choice of will over body. It's a complicated process, and will take me till about 17th level to get everythign I need and get allt he various things in place, but at least it gives me a goal to work to. taken down the Zulkar of Nercomancy may be a bit much, or a bit to little, based on how the embodyment of death thing turns out. I dont know, its ur campain. Personally I wish my dm were more open to new ideas such as that, as of right now he's a bit rough around the edges. The Dm wants to take us up into Epic eventually. Zass is a 30th level NPC. I spent two years playing with people who built laser guided scopes for their crossbows, hand grenades, and magnetic railguns out of common spells and equipment. I have every faith in the fact that when it comes down to actually taking him out we'll succeed. If you can try to convence your dm to let you use the 3.0 version of the red wizard prestige class. I know min/maxing isnt really what this board is about, but the class really just blows in 3.5, and it is almost pointless to take it, ass it really drops your abillitys. Sorry, going to pass on the red Wizard prestige class. I've got other things i need more,and the DM has ixnayed anything that isn't 3.5 What are your two prohibited schools going to be? illusion and one i haven't yet decided on. I'm not entirely happy with giving up Illusion, but i need to make sacrifices somewhere. Any thoughts on the second school? Again, I really like your idea, and think it could work out very very well. Best of luck. Thank you, i've posted the character description in the next post, i'd appreciate comments. P.S. If you find it in your heart, maybe you could post a campain journal. I really enjoy seeing what people are doing in there campains, as it tends to spark my brain into working. Hmm, I don't mind doing that, i'm just not sure where i'd post it. Is character development really the right place for that? Mancer said On a more character developmenty note, I think an evil PC in a good party can be a lot of fun. One of the players in our group inevitably plays a fighter/rogue/assassin vampire. Well, as i'm the only experienced RP'r, i'm afraid there's a bit of an issue with the fact that the good priest (the other two are playing neutral Hexblade and neutral thief respectively) player seems hesitant about standing up for the side of 'good' after i used a cause fear to chase of a stable owner to provide for our mounts. Of course, as long as you aren't the "sacrifice children for fun" variety of bad guy, and as long as there isn't a PC with detect evil quick at hand, this type of conflict may never come up. Also, even a lawful good Paladin may not be so quick to Holy Avenger someone just for being evil, especially if that someone is a person they have travelled with and been friends with for years. Well, I complicate things by throwing my total resources bheind whatever goals the others have to achieve. The priest wants to build a temple? Sure, i'll help make it happen, you don't mind if i animate half a dozen skelotons (i love arcane disciple) to help digging the foundation right? :Devil: For me it's simple, if you adventure with my character, he's your best friend, he'll help you, fight for you, build magic items you need, cast spells that are helpfull etc. If you aren't in his party, then you do not merit such consideration :D swillimajackson sad [/quote]What alignment are you exactly? LE, NE or CE? [/quote] LE to NE, depending on what happens in the campaign. He basically believes that Death itself is speaking directly to him, and will do whatever he has to to prove himself a worthy follower. okay please note, i spent a substantial portion of my starting cash on spell scrolls which i then transcribed inot my spellbook :D Wynn Diego (wIn Dee-Go) Level 5 Wizard Necromancer Strength: 11, Dexterity: 15, Constitution: 16, Intelligence: 18, Wisdon: 14, Charisma 12. Saves: Fort: 4, Will 6, Ref 3. HP: 32, BAB 2 Languages: Common, Infernal, abyssal, mulhorandi, Draconic, elven Skill ranks: Concentrate (8) Wildernes Lore (2) Knowledge Arcana (8) Knowledge Necrology (8) (i need this for the Necromancy BTG feats) Spellcraft (6) Knowledge religion (4) Craft Alchemy (6) Feats lvl 1: Spell Prodigy (main casting attribute is effectively +2 for all spellcasting related issues) Spellfire channeler (for that extra oomph) Scribe Scroll (always usefull) lvl 3: Arcane Disciple (access tot he 9 Domain spells of one domain, I chose Death. Means i can animate dead as a wizard at level 5) Lvl 5 wizard bonus feat: Energy Substitution (make everything sonic, only one create in the MM3.5 has sonic immunity) Spells in spellbook 0: All 1: Identify, Sleep, Color Spray, Animate Skeloton, Mage Armour, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Chill Touch, Feather Fall, Spider Climb 2: Scare, Rope Trick, Detect thoughts, Shatter, Arcane Lock, Spectral Hand, Alter Self, Melfs Acid Arrow 3: Vampiric Touch, Tongues, Dispell Magic, Hold person, Fly, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Haste, Lightning Bolt Spells prepared daily 0: 4 1: 6 (3 + 2 for intelligence of 18+2 of Prodigy feat + 1 for specialisation) 2: 4 (2 + 1 for bonus spell, and +1 for specialisation) 3: 3 (1 + 1 for bonus spell and +1 for specialisation) All things considered, i'm quite happy with this wizard build thoughts? comments? suggestions?
Charles Phipps 09-16-04, 01:24 PM	Your character should immediately build up the "Raistlin Majere mystique" That basically means that you should "IC" immediately establish yourself to be a charismatic individual with his own morals and values. If he's from Thay, he probably has tatoos and is recognizable as such so you should play him as nevertheless a proud individual who doesn't take guff. "I am indeed from Thay but if you ever call me one of the slimy, backstabbing, contemptible, pieces of offal that worship that festering bag of bones again then I shall personally make you dissapear." Why does he hate the Zulkirs? Is it because he believes they are incompetent? He disagrees with slavery? He believes that magic shouldn't be restricted to one single race? Personal revenge? It might be interesting to basically say upfront you are on a mission to avenge your father whose now a zombie with his soul bound to him in Ssass Tam's castle along with your mother who became a concubine before suicide or something suitably nasty. But I think it'd be fun to play it coldly. In other words, even Paladins recognize that you're working for a "good" goal even if you yourself aren't exactly a shining embodiment of moral virtue. Show your evil in "fun" ways too. Be the one to suggest simply killing everyone you capture or surrender or other darth vader stuff but don't argue about it, just say "Oh whatever...handle it like you will." My opinion at least
Godeskian 09-17-04, 02:11 AM	Your character should immediately build up the "Raistlin Majere mystique" That basically means that you should "IC" immediately establish yourself to be a charismatic individual with his own morals and values. If he's from Thay, he probably has tatoos and is recognizable as such so you should play him as nevertheless a proud individual who doesn't take guff. Hmm, interesting idea. I hadn't written up much of a physical description yet, but I certainly like that idea. Why does he hate the Zulkirs? Is it because he believes they are incompetent? He disagrees with slavery? He believes that magic shouldn't be restricted to one single race? Personal revenge? Twofold, one, his entire village was massacred in a battle between red wizards, (by accident almost) including his mother. Him and his father weren't in the village at the time, but the event led to his fathers depressed suicide three months later while he was only 10 years old. He blames the Zulkirs for not caring about their peasantry enough to stop this sort of thing from happening. second, he considers it a problem that the Zulkirs survive not, on their own merits or on the power of their lichdom (in Tam's case) but on the generations of fear they've instilled people with. He wants to break those bonds, and create a rulership for Thay that is based on the fact that one should be proud to be Thayan, and that one should take pride in both ones heratige and ones leaders. Zsass Tam is not a being to be proud of. It might be interesting to basically say upfront you are on a mission to avenge your father whose now a zombie with his soul bound to him in Ssass Tam's castle along with your mother who became a concubine before suicide or something suitably nasty. Well, my parents are both dead, but who knows what happened to them after I buried them. But I think it'd be fun to play it coldly. In other words, even Paladins recognize that you're working for a "good" goal even if you yourself aren't exactly a shining embodiment of moral virtue. Show your evil in "fun" ways too. Be the one to suggest simply killing everyone you capture or surrender or other darth vader stuff but don't argue about it, just say "Oh whatever...handle it like you will." hmm, how about a 'to fight monsters, you have to become a monster' sort of feel, is that what you mean? Using any tool, forsaking my own soul and 'goodness' to do battle with other evil, no matter the cost?
Charles Phipps 09-17-04, 12:09 PM	Hmm, interesting idea. I hadn't written up much of a physical description yet, but I certainly like that idea. I think its best to be not hiding that you are a powerful wizard and don't expect to be feared or hated wherever you go and if you are then there WILL be trouble. An idea would be to wear a robe of black that had Thayan symbols all over it but disfigured. The tatoos are also significant but only to Thayans. I.e A Thayan sorcerer's last sight when he looks at you is your tatoo of the Thayans house symbol burning. Twofold, one, his entire village was massacred in a battle between red wizards, (by accident almost) including his mother. Him and his father weren't in the village at the time, but the event led to his fathers depressed suicide three months later while he was only 10 years old. He blames the Zulkirs for not caring about their peasantry enough to stop this sort of thing from happening. Understood. That means you might actually be Rashemi in blood (or mixed) with cultural Thayan which would make you even more frightening to Thayans since a wizard who apes their traditions to destroy them is an important thing. I suggest you detail an arcane mentor here rather than the self-study most players go for. As a necromancer I would ask your GM if you can have a rogue Thayan come into the village sensing "destiny" afoot and the character hated him until he revealed he hated Thay as much as any. If you want to get truly epic, you might make the character in question the future Velsharoon. He wants his former apprentice to overthrow the Zulkirs and establish a necromancer's kingdom where all are equal so he can grow in worship to a greater god. In this case you could take the Red Wizard class but not gain the status second, he considers it a problem that the Zulkirs survive not, on their own merits or on the power of their lichdom (in Tam's case) but on the generations of fear they've instilled people with. He wants to break those bonds, and create a rulership for Thay that is based on the fact that one should be proud to be Thayan, and that one should take pride in both ones heratige and ones leaders. Zsass Tam is not a being to be proud of. In this case I might take some ranks in Craft and Perform. It might be interesting to ask your GM if your character still has contacts in Thay (perhaps an underground Velsharoon church or peasantry rebellion or rogue wizars) that he distributes tracts too while in exile. Viva La Revolution and all that. You can be influential without godlike power...yet. Well, my parents are both dead, but who knows what happened to them after I buried them Just an idea, you already have alot of symapethtic stuff. hmm, how about a 'to fight monsters, you have to become a monster' sort of feel, is that what you mean? Using any tool, forsaking my own soul and 'goodness' to do battle with other evil, no matter the cost? The Punisher type feel can get very squicky so I'd recommend that you play it as if your concerns with humanity and monstrousness went out years ago. You KNOW how ruthless the enemy is and you are equally ruthless. I would play it as if you ever had a struggle with doing evil to kill your enemy, you long ago decided on evil but still consider yourself "good" After all, killing evil people isn't evil (rationalization) I'd also make sure to instill some Doctor Doom style honorable traits as well like constantly harp on the fact you are a man of your word and magnimonious to the peasant rabble (you ONCE were one of them and all that) too
Godeskian 09-17-04, 01:32 PM	I think its best to be not hiding that you are a powerful wizard and don't expect to be feared or hated wherever you go and if you are then there WILL be trouble. An idea would be to wear a robe of black that had Thayan symbols all over it but disfigured. The tatoos are also significant but only to Thayans. I.e A Thayan sorcerer's last sight when he looks at you is your tatoo of the Thayans house symbol burning. That sounds awesome to be honest. I don't think my DM is looking to get that deep into specific backgrounds, but i certainly intend to go that route. Understood. That means you might actually be Rashemi in blood (or mixed) with cultural Thayan which would make you even more frightening to Thayans since a wizard who apes their traditions to destroy them is an important thing. Will being Rashemi (in background) require any changes to the character design? and what, in roleplaying terms does that mean (i'm not terribly familiar with the FR setting, beyond the basics) I suggest you detail an arcane mentor here rather than the self-study most players go for. As a necromancer I would ask your GM if you can have a rogue Thayan come into the village sensing "destiny" afoot and the character hated him until he revealed he hated Thay as much as any. Well, originally i'd designed him so that he had studied at a thayan magical college, as a sort of ironic revenge sort of thing, using their own training against them. If you want to get truly epic, you might make the character in question the future Velsharoon. He wants his former apprentice to overthrow the Zulkirs and establish a necromancer's kingdom where all are equal so he can grow in worship to a greater god. Erm, the future velsharoon? is this future history in the actuall setting? In this case you could take the Red Wizard class but not gain the status How necessry is the class considering that i'm a spellfiring Necromancer? with access tot he Death domain? In this case I might take some ranks in Craft and Perform. It might be interesting to ask your GM if your character still has contacts in Thay (perhaps an underground Velsharoon church or peasantry rebellion or rogue wizars) that he distributes tracts too while in exile. I've been considering bonesculpting as a craft. Also, the campaign started in Thay, we were imprisoned and affected by a short term memory loss drug when we started the campaign (as a way of tying all the different characterss together, we all woke up in the same cell) at which point we were pretty much drafted by a red wizard to kill the guy who imprisoned us (whom he happens to have a grudge against as well) Viva La Revolution and all that. You can be influential without godlike power..yet. hmm, grassroots resistance. I like it. Just an idea, you already have alot of symapethtic stuff. Yeah, but i tend to build heavily roleplayable characters anyway, it's more fun to just build a combat monster. The Punisher type feel can get very squicky so I'd recommend that you play it as if your concerns with humanity and monstrousness went out years ago. You KNOW how ruthless the enemy is and you are equally ruthless. I would play it as if you ever had a struggle with doing evil to kill your enemy, you long ago decided on evil but still consider yourself "good" Right, leave the moralising to the younger characters, and play someone who has already decided on his course in life. After all, killing evil people isn't evil (rationalization) I can live with that :) I'd also make sure to instill some Doctor Doom style honorable traits as well like constantly harp on the fact you are a man of your word and magnimonious to the peasant rabble (you ONCE were one of them and all that) too Actually, his personal honor was something i'd already decided on, whatever he says he'll do, he'll do his darndest to do. He's completely loyal to his adventuring companions, and will neither forgive, nor forget betrayal. Charles, you are awesome.
Charles Phipps 09-17-04, 04:03 PM	Just realize that Velsharoon is the God of Necromancy and the Undead but he's a former Thayan wizard. He's been VERY recently promoted but its part of his background that Thayians hate him because he's an enemy of Ssass Tam. If you were trained as a child then you could indeed be Velsharoon's former apprentice. Rashemi are the native peoples of the Thayans and hate them who live in the land. Thayans are the descendents of the Mulhorandi (Egyptians) who came and conquered them. You'd be hated by all Thayans immediately but also feared since they believe the Rashemi learning magic is all that keeps them from rebelling and destroying them as it happened in their "homeland" that's currently ruled by witches that have no real ties to their Thayan Rashemi brethren who've spent generations as the property of the red wizards.