Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cheshire_grin 08-25-03, 01:29 PM	I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes. I have a character concept, but I'm not entirely sure how I want to translate it into an actual character sheet. I'm looking for suggestions on skills, feats, and level progression. Limitations: the character must start at 1st level and must be human or perhaps half-elf (but prefer human). If you've read Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey, the basic concept for this character is a member of the Cassiline Order. If you haven't: The Cassilines are an order of religious fighters, who devote themselves to the precepts of Cassiel. Cassiel's basic schtick is that he is the "Perfect Companion", or basically a bodyguard. His devotees take vows to remain celibate and to never kill except when forced to it, in self-defence or the defence of their charge. They wield two daggers in most situations, using these and a pair of bracers as defensive weapons. They also carry a longsword, with which they are highly skilled, and which they only draw when they are prepared to kill (i.e. when there is no other way to end or avoid the fight). So. How do you turn this guy into a 3.5E character? I've had the following thoughts: 1. Class: Probably fighter. Paladin might be closer (being a religious warrior etc), except that the protection from evil, detect evil, and spell casting abilities etc don't really fit. Cleric is also pretty much out because of spellcasting. 2. Feats: Two-weapon fighting is obvious. Things like Cleave would be useful in close-quarters fighting (which is the kind a bodyguard is most likely to see). What about things like Deflection (can that be used to protect a character behind you)? Are there any other feats that seem to fit the concept? Any other comments or suggestions?
TheMightyMcClaw 08-25-03, 02:20 PM	You also might want to consider levels of Monk, as you are fighting (basically) unarmored. Also, it seems like you'd really, really want to take levels of Devoted Defender (sword and fist). It's basically a bodyguard prestige class.
cheshire_grin 08-25-03, 02:24 PM	Yeah, I thought about monk, but I plan on the character wearing armor, and using weapons, so discarded it. I don't have any of the splatbooks, but I'll look into Devoted Defender.
Edymnion 08-25-03, 09:20 PM	I'd say pure fighter. You can do a LOT with the normal "vanilla" fighter. In this case, Two Weapon Fighting (preferrably the 3.5 version), appropriate weapon focuses/specializations, perhaps talk with your DM about making up a feat that allows you to do subdual damage with your weapons without the standard penalties. Perhaps take a que from weapon focus, and make it weapon specific. Name it Subdual Fighting (weapon name) or something like that. At lvl 1, as a human fighter, you could go with TWF (3.5 version), Subdual Fighting (dagger), and Weapon Focus (longsword). That should be a good place to start anyway. You could also talk to your DM about trading in fighter abilities for other things. Like giving up your heavy armor prof in exchange for TWF as a freebie. Shouldn't be too hard to fine tune the fighter to match what you want. Even if that doesn't fly, fighter gets enough bonus feats to do it all easily enough, it will just take a little longer than if you get freebies up front, which means it will take a little longer to develop your character the way you want him.
cheshire_grin 08-25-03, 09:56 PM	Great ideas... I hadn't considered asking to trade in feats... this whole thing would be so much easier under 2E + Player's Option. ;)
Trydan 08-26-03, 02:28 AM	I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes. Here's probably as good a place as any. Normally, I'd say it was either a PHB question, or perhaps a Character Optimisation question, but anyway. I agree with Edymnion (again... does this person read my mind?!). Fighter gets that extra feat at Lvl.1 allowing feats to reflect the specialities of the character. You can always multiclass to Cleric or a prestige class later, should you feel the need to be even more relgious. Note, of course, that just because you're not a Paladin or Cleric, doesn't mean that you are atheistic.
Tzalice Minoladir 08-26-03, 09:29 AM	you can play a fighter like a paladin, heck, you can play a rogue like a paladin. You just don't get the cool paladin stuff like divine health, grace, et al. I mean, classes are more of an ooc thing anyhow. It's the actions that make them man. :D I'd go straight fighter. People never realise the diversity that can allow. It really is DnD's little black dress
Edymnion 08-26-03, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by Trydan Note, of course, that just because you're not a Paladin or Cleric, doesn't mean that you are atheistic. Yes, I've got a sorcerer on the drawing board that thinks his magical abilities are a gift from his god. He'll cast all the normal arcane spell, but runs around as righteous as any paladin, always dresses in white and gold, etc. Just because your character is a certain class doesn't mean they have to act like a standard member of that class. I mean, I think I'll have fun playing a Sorcerer that thinks he's a Cleric/Paladin. :D
pindanin 08-26-03, 09:58 PM	would suggest ranger. TWF as a freebie, light armor, endurance feat. Take he Devoted Defender prestige class later on. The main reason I would suggest this however is skills. With the only(?) fighter type having spot and listen as class skills you would be able to notice any attacks coming at your charge. Healing is also a class skill and you would be able to staunch the wounds of anyone you protect. Much of the flavor of the ranger is a forest protecter, however, you can change "forest" to anything else. Talk to DM about possibly changing out a few of your ranger class ablities for other things. Although I would keep animal compainion just I could have a wolf to sniff out the bad guys. If in your caimpaign your charge is always being attacked by a particular group see if you can make that group your favored enemy.
Edymnion 08-27-03, 12:32 AM	Originally posted by pindanin would suggest ranger. TWF as a freebie, light armor, endurance feat. Take he Devoted Defender prestige class later on. The main reason I would suggest this however is skills. With the only(?) fighter type having spot and listen as class skills you would be able to notice any attacks coming at your charge. Healing is also a class skill and you would be able to staunch the wounds of anyone you protect. Much of the flavor of the ranger is a forest protecter, however, you can change "forest" to anything else. Talk to DM about possibly changing out a few of your ranger class ablities for other things. Although I would keep animal compainion just I could have a wolf to sniff out the bad guys. If in your caimpaign your charge is always being attacked by a particular group see if you can make that group your favored enemy. Yes, you might want to look into the Urban Ranger variant, it would work well with what you want.
PhaedrusXY 08-28-03, 04:39 PM	Maybe some combo of Ranger/Duelist/Devoted Defender. There is also a PrC or two in MotW that lets you do subdual damage with a weapon without taking the -4 penalty to attacks. I can't remember what it was though, Watch Detective or Bloodhound maybe... That might fit this as well, since you don't want to use lethal force unless you absolutely have to. Edit: Er... never mind. Duelist has to use only one weapon and not duel wield. Ranger/Fighter/Devoted Defender then.
cheshire_grin 08-28-03, 06:18 PM	Ranger I think might be a wash; you get two-weapon fighting for free, but you lose the fighter bonus feat. Rangers are spellcasters as well, so that might be more trouble than it's worth. Urban Rangers seem more about detective work and trailing people in the city, which might be useful if your charge is unwilling to be guarded, but overall I think fighter might be the best idea, with the Devoted Defender PrC later on. Thanks!
PhaedrusXY 08-29-03, 02:38 AM	Rangers don't get spells till 4th level. Just stop at 3rd and multiclass into fighter. You'll have alot better skills than a straight fighter would, and you'll get three feats for free.
cheshire_grin 08-29-03, 11:43 AM	Good point.
Kharne 08-30-03, 03:50 AM	For the bracers, look at the Dastana from OA. They give a +1 AC in exchange for a -1 armor check penalty. This stacks with armor and shield if you carry one. If you are looking at using 2 daggers most of the time, I might shy away from Cleave. Cleave itself won't necessarily be all that helpful and you won't be able to use Power Attack with the daggers if you are playing 3.5. You might look at going into expertise, improved disarm, and improved trip. These combos would make you better at defending your charge. You can keep people from getting to them with trip and disarm is pretty understandable. Another possibility would be for you to take one level of Templar. This would give you one slot, but you might just use that slot to mem shield of faith and treat it as a prayer for your deities protection on yourself or your charge rather than a "spell". The holy warrior aspect of the class fits your concept and you would get the weapon specialization in the long sword to reflect the character's skill with that weapon specifically. Also, the mettle ability fits well with the "tough" aspect of the character. Rogue would be good if you looked at it as reflecting your characters intense combat training rather than looking at it as a class all about thieving. The sneak attack would also help your daggers to do a bit more damage. However, it depends on how closely you would plan on sticking near your charge. It might make it hard to get into flanking position...especially if you decide to go devoted defender. Here is what I might think about: Human Ranger1 - Versatile (sp?), Alertness, Track Ranger2 - Two-Weapon Fighting Ranger3 - Endurance, Combat Expertise Ranger3/Fighter1 - Improved Disarm Ranger3/Fighter2 - Weapon Focus: LS Ranger3/Fighter2/Templar1 - Weapon Spec: LS, Improved Trip Ranger3/Fighter2/Templar1/Defender1 - Ranger3/Fighter2/Templar1/Defender2 - Ranger3/Fighter2/Templar1/Defender3 - Diehard etc. Versatile is a feat that allows you to take 2 skills as class skills. In this instance, you would need to take Sense Motive and Knowledge (Religion). Anyone know where I found this feat? It is balanced with Cosmopolitan and Knowledgeable in FRCS in my opinion but i'm hoping this isn't just one of those house rules that my group has eventually come to see as core... :P You could switch Weapon Focus and Alertness easily if you wanted to reflect the skill with the Long Sword early since Alertness is mostly needed for the Devoted Defender prestige. Also, if you wanted Greater Two- Weapon Fighting and have the Dex for it, you could move Improved Trip to 9th and bump Diehard back. Alternatively, you could drop in Improved Critical with the Long Sword at 9th...LOL too many options :cool: If you were looking for something a bit simpler... Human Rogue1 - Alertness, Two- Weapon Fighting Rogue1/Fighter1 - Weapon Focus: LS Rogue1/Fighter2 - Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Rogue1/Fighter3 - Rogue1/Fighter4 - Weapon Spec: LS Rogue2/Fighter4 - Improved Trip Rogue2/Fighter4/Defender1 - Rogue2/Fighter4/Defender2 - Rogue2/Fighter4/Defender3 - Improved Two-Weapon You could drop another level of Rogue in here at some point to hit 2d6 in sneak attack. Wow, sorry to spam with ideas...I just really enjoy trying to figure out how to make neat character concepts work in D&D. Good Luck...sounds like a very cool character concept.
Shaun O'Braun 08-31-03, 02:17 PM	You know, a question like this really should go on the >Character Optimization board< (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=339). I almost can't believe that I'm seeing complete character builds and discussions of feats/classes/etc. on this board. ;D
Kharne 08-31-03, 02:28 PM	Shaun, the reason I didn't see this as necessarily belonging on the character optimization board is because I think the majority of the responses Cheshire would get there are about how much the character is going to suck since he is trying to use two different weapons. I really enjoy reading the Character Optimization posts and see the folks there as having possibly the best understanding of the rules, but it really seems that that board has become more about finding and playing with levels of craziness that many of us don't bring into our games. The few tamer character concepts i've posted there looking for help got little or no response. Alternatively, I mentioned wanting to build a character that used a sword and whip. After a few posts about how much this character is limiting themselves by using two different weapons, someone posted a response about how I must really be looking for a character that would work just as well using a chain for OA. While the build was actually a bit helpful...it seems like the person who responded to me kind of missed the point of what I was going for...especially when the post was titled "Sword/Whip Wielder". :P Anyway, anything else I might have to say on this subject I already posted on the meta-board titled "Need a new board?" here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72332) I think the character optimization board was intended for the purpose you have mentioned, but it seems like the regulars there have lost interest in helping people build up what they are looking for and are just enjoying seeing what they can come up with within the rules.
cheshire_grin 09-02-03, 09:36 AM	Kharne, those are some really helpful build ideas. Thanks! I thought about posting this in the Character Optimization board, but I'm not sure I really wanted those types of responses. That board seems to lean more towards the min/max type player, where I'm more interested in builds that fit the concept as opposed to builds that will be more "effective" in a meta-gamer sense. As such Character Development seemed more appropriate, since my post was concept-oriented rather than rules-oriented. Anyway, some great posts and very helpful ideas, so thanks all.
Silvershadow 09-02-03, 10:55 PM	Read the books and totally understand why you want to make a class idea off of Jocelyn- best character ever!! Throwing the sword... "We're not even trained for that!" Just my two cents, not too helpful for class maybe, but more along feat suggestions. He was really fast- Improved Initiative a must; Quick Draw as soon as you can. Obviously the Two-Weapon Fighting variations as well, and Weapon Focus (daggers) and (longsword); Weapon Specialization (daggers) and (longsword) if you're a straight fighter. Can Shield Bash be applied to vambraces? Can't remember... But yes, the Cassiline Order should be translated somehow to DnD. Maybe a special bonus when they fight in defense? Maybe a penalty if they draw their sword against their vows (ie, not to kill, as Jocelyn did), or a bonus if they are following their vows. And definitely, that move he does at the very end when he almost rescues her and almost kills himself (can't remember what that final move is called) needs a very high bonus to it because it's such a rarity and important event. Sigh... I never thought I could fall in love with a guy named Jocelyn, but hey, first time for everything... -Silver
cheshire_grin 09-03-03, 08:52 AM	Originally posted by Silvershadow Read the books and totally understand why you want to make a class idea off of Jocelyn- best character ever!! Throwing the sword... "We're not even trained for that!" Yeah, I haven't read the third one yet (no $$ for hardbacks at the moment), but the first two were great. Maybe a special bonus when they fight in defense? Yeah, I might try to come up with some kind of a feat for this, if Devoted Defender doesn't already cover it. Maybe a penalty if they draw their sword against their vows (ie, not to kill, as Jocelyn did), or a bonus if they are following their vows. I don't know if I really want to attach game mechanics to that sort of thing; Joscelin certainly doesn't get less effective after breaking that vow. I think that might be the sort of thing that would be more properly handled by in-game story mechanics (such as having to either spend a year at a monastary atoning, or being ejected from the Order etc).
Kharne 09-03-03, 10:55 AM	After all this discussion...i'm definitely going to have to give these books a read. :P I think the devoted defender gets AC bonus as he goes up in level. Additionally, I think expertise and fighting defensively might work well towards the defensive concept you two were talking about. If that isn't quite reflecting it, you might look into off-hand parry from Sword&Fist.
cheshire_grin 09-03-03, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Kharne After all this discussion...i'm definitely going to have to give these books a read. :P Be aware that they incorporate mature concepts and descriptions... including a main character who really enjoys pain. As long as you can handle that, they're great. :) I think the devoted defender gets AC bonus as he goes up in level. Additionally, I think expertise and fighting defensively might work well towards the defensive concept you two were talking about. If that isn't quite reflecting it, you might look into off-hand parry from Sword&Fist. Yeah, I need to read that splatbook one of these days... ;)
Kharne 09-03-03, 12:07 PM	Appreciate the warning Cheshire...but I think i'm old enough to handle it. Not to mention...if I can handle Greenwood books, I must be all ready for all sorts of moral ambiguity...LOL, sorry, I couldn't resist...I just feel like such a perv sometimes reading his books :P
Kharne 09-08-03, 11:26 AM	I was thinking about your character concept Cheshire and thought of one more suggestion for you...have you thought about using Kukris rather than Daggers? Since you'll have the Ranger levels going you would be proficient in them. This would actually make it a bit more worthwhile since you'll only be using d4 weapons primarily. If the image doesn't quite fit, you might think about talking to your DM about being allowed to reflect the difference by just using regular daggers for the image and use the stats of kukris (maybe the character needs to spend a bit of time keeping them sharp each day or so). Just a thought to add a bit belatedly ;)
JoAT 09-11-03, 07:18 AM	One thing I'd recomend is looking into Dragon #310, the varient fighters, specifically. One of them is called the body guard, and has two abilities that would really help out this concept (one of which was made into a feat for the game that I play in/GM). The first allows you to aply your Combat Expertise or shield bonus (or both bonuses) to the AC of someone withing 5 feet of you, while looseing it yourself. (This got made into a nice little feat.) The second allows you to use cleave and great cleave while doing so. (This died...). I'd say that either one would fit the roll of protector quite well.
Leap 09-11-03, 08:25 AM	Having not read the books I am unsure as to the kind of 'daggers' being used; but historically speaking a dagger encompasses a shortsword in many cultures................. On character class, you might want to consider 2 or 3 levels of paladin followed on by fighter? Although, would a dnd paladin approve of Phedre's, erm, preferences......? ;)
cheshire_grin 09-11-03, 09:07 AM	As far as I can tell they're pretty standard daggers; the idea is that most of the time the bodyguard will be fighting in very close quarters, so a pair of daggers can be just as effective as a sword (as well as allowing the bodyguard to throw the weapons if necessary). They're quick to draw, as well. Originally posted by Leap Although, would a dnd paladin approve of Phedre's, erm, preferences......? ;) Joscelin was most definitely not happy with Phedre's profession and preferences, at least at the beginning of the books. In fact he was a bit of a prude. ;) He mellowed a bit as the story progressed, though. To be fair, D&D paladins don't necessarily have to be celibate or prudish. They might still balk at a person whose preferences tend to masochism, I suppose -- but that's a discussion for the Mature board. :) Also, if you haven't read the books, how do you know her name? It wasn't mentioned in this thread... ;)