Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirGoodyTwoShoes 10-30-07, 06:56 PM	With such a stringent alignment-code of conduct attached to them, I feel like every Paladin since the beginning of time is either the stern, brooding "grey guard" type who refuses to admit that the rest of the party is of any use, or the overly optimistic (read: extremely annoying) guy who's always shouting corny battle cries and charging into battle like a barbarian with an Int of 3. I'm really just looking for something in the middle. Plus, I'm playing in Forgotten Realms for the first time, so any specifics that could be added to the backstory from that setting would be awesome (regions, names of towns/groups, etc...) Okay, so here's what I have so far: Human Pal 5/Pious Templar 1 Str 17 Dex 8 Con 15 Int 11 Wis 14 Cha 20 Feats: Power attack, True Believer (Torm), Weapon Focus (Greatsword), and Leadership (with a Level 4 Cleric of Pelor following him) Skills: Concentration-4, Diplomacy-16, Heal-6, Knowledge Religion-5, Profession Soldier-4, Ride-5, Sense Motive-7 Mount: Heavy Warhorse (I am not very focused on the mount, since the PrC's I intend to take don't really advance the mount abilities any) He was the commander of a military unit (basically a spec ops group consisting of him, a wizard/rogue, a ranger and a monk) that has just finished its tour of duty and has begun adventuring together. He is extremely devoted to Torm (like pretty much any Paladin in Forgotten Realms), but he also pays homage to the imported archon Raziel from the fifth realm of the heavens (BoED), and I intend to have him take levels in the Fist of Raziel PrC (after three more levels of Pious Templar and one level of Divine Crusader). Apart from that, I'm really at kind of a loss. I'm open to any suggestions, specifically about how he got into the military, how he became a Paladin, should he have any family, what age seems about right, does he have any obvious character flaws (with a low Dex, it's obvious that he's going to be a little stern/rigid, so I'm moving more toward the brooding pally side of the spectrum), what is his purpose for adventuring and how did he pick up the random cohort (who wants to become a radiant servant of Pelor PrC eventually)? I realize that's a tall order, so I don't expect anyone to come up with all of those answers, but I'd be extremely grateful for any ideas along those lines.
Stormbrand 10-30-07, 08:38 PM	"Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper!" Once you can accept that, Paladinhood is easy. All you must do is believe. Paladins want to make the world better, they want to see innocent people happy and healthy and safe. Believe it is possible, believe that we can make the world a better place. Playing an honourable character is simply a matter of making the choice you would admire the most. Heavy armour, divine grace and immunities means the paladin can take risks for others. Heroic self-sacrifice is easier when you have the most protection. Plan several standard tactical maneuvers in advance, and try to use them. Remember these: flanking, cover, charge, high ground. Get these right, and you will often have bonuses. Remember, paladins are not restricted to charging at the enemy, close-combat is simply what they are good at. The 'blind charge' or 'never retreat' concepts should really be more noble than mechanical. Think, 'do innocents need me?' If so, you enter the battle no matter how dangerous it is. Retreat from a losing battle without complaint, so long as no one is left behind. If a thousand monsters are heading for an innocent, you stand between them by yourself if need be to give them time to escape. On that subject, remember escape routes - not just for yourself, you are careful with the lives of your team (the rest of the party) and those under your command. So make preparations to keep them as well defended as possible. Remember your healing ability. It may not be astonishing to the rest of the party but it will work wonders with the common people. Give out Remove Disease and Lay On Hands freely to non-evil NPCs who suffer. Small uses will make such a difference to them. To understand the 'never lie' rule, a paladin believes in the ideal of a just society - if we all help each other, everyone prospers - lying undermines the basic trust which makes that possible. Duty. Do what is right, what is just, any time it is within your power to do good in the world, your choice is already made - You made it the day you became a paladin. They are obsessive like that. Good examples of Paladinic characters from film and literature: Paksenarrion (Deed of Paksenarrion) Balian from the film Kingdom of Heaven. Druss the Legend. Galahad from Warlord Chronicles. Benton Frasier from the old TV series Due South. For another suggestion, read the story I posted in this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=938289) link. A major theme of that character is doing good with no hope of reward, since he is condemned to Gehenna regardless of the good he does. Expect a PM as well. Age should be fairly young, depending on background. Historical knighthoods took place between 18 and 21 (training began as a page at 7 and a squire at 14 before knighthood). Any older would imply a different route. Becoming a Paladin should be a striking example of devotion. Something you did for others, an act which makes the words Lawful Good deserve the capitals. Any power discovers should be used for others at the time. Perhaps simple Detect Evil giving a flash of insight which averts catastrophe. Your cohort (Radiant Servant) should probably worship Lathender (closest to Pelor in FR). You could have simply met doing good works and you took charge at the time. Think of some project you share, make that what your character does when not busy. Character flaw wise, my paladins are very vulnerable to female attention because of their sense of chivalry - and some residual loneliness from the fact they can never truly devote themselves to a partner and so remain single.
cog_n_taz 10-30-07, 11:08 PM	I'm sorry to say that non-cliche paladins are entirely impossible, as you can see in this example. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=891691)
Silvertek 10-31-07, 12:06 AM	I have a non-cliche paladin in a game, though it is a homegrown setting and my paladin became non-cliche by accident. In the setting I am playing in, there are paladins of every alignment, though lawful good and lawful evil are the most common by far. I started out by playing the typical, stiffly formal paladin who detected evil, smited, and asked questions later- until my character met an actual lawful evil paladin and wound up falling in love with him. This forced my character to struggle with questions of good and evil in general as well as the question of whether love is a greater good than hatred of evil. As it worked out in the game, my character's god (roughly equivalent to Hieroneous) agreed to let my character date the evil paladin (who follows the equivalent of Hextor), as long as my character does not let this distract her from her quest- which adds another level of challenge to the role-playing (namely role-playing a person madly in love, who is trying to persue a relationship while questing at the same time). Even if it hadn't worked out that way and my character's god did not allow this, such an event would have made my character a lot more interesting, and would have shaped her into being forgiving of others, not stiff, yet wary and cautious. Similarly, if romance isn't your cup of tea, finding something for your paladin to like/be attracted to that is not typical of paladins (and even a bit anti-paladin) can make your paladin grow in ways that you may not even see coming!
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 01:05 AM	Non cliche paladin? how about a paladin of Odilammara? With the Paladin of Freedom variant from UA, this is a, IIRC, legitimate and occasionally hilarious choice. You are obligated to fight slavery and oppression, even when it is lawful, but you can get away with white lies and maybe even theft if the situation calls for it. I have this quirky Bard/Paladin of Freedom/WarWeaver/Sublime Chord/Abjurant Champion build that I am making up a storyline for. One case has her promising to hold a valley against a Goblinoid Army for 3 days. The Valley, which a natural chokepoint, is unfortified and ungarrisonned. The Paladin outlines an audacious plan to fortify the valley and rally the local inhabitants to hold the line until the national army can muster in strength, all within a Week. Adviser to the King: How do you intend to fortify the valley in a mere week? Paladin: A Lyre of Building would allow the construction of a Fortress with little effort. Adviser: You Have such an artifact? Paladin: Actually, I was planning on stealing one from that Bardic College on the way there. Adviser: :eek: You're a Paladin, you can't steal! Paladin: I'm a Paladin of Odilammara, silly! Adviser: Odilammara has paladins!? Paladin: :rolleyes: Surely you realize that the God of Rogues would not allow other Gods to make use of Paladins without stealing the wonderful idea for his own use?
Uberwoot 10-31-07, 01:19 AM	With such a high charisma and your desire for a non-cliche paladin, I can't help but think you'd be a perfect candidate to be a paladin of Sune- chaotic good goddess of beauty and love. She permits paladins, even though she's two steps away from lawful good; she is an exception to that rule. A paladin of Sune, while adhering to the standard paladin code, puts an emphasis on the Good in her alignment. She will obey legitimate authority, but at the same time, will go to great lengths to make the law work in favor of others. Generosity is key, both with her class abilities (lay on hands costs nothing during a period of rest) and with her wealth; her tithe does not have to go strictly to her church (although Sunite edifices greatly appreciate donations of aesthetically pleasing artwork), and it could in fact be quite fulfilling to role play some gifts (a particularly appropriate gift might include perfumes and fine clothing given to a less-than-wealthy pair of young lovers). She takes excruciating care of her appearance, changing clothing frequently (a pack mule is a must) and bathing regularly even in the wilderness (though dungeons would put a cramp in her style). She takes note of her surroundings, especially of beautiful things, and displays disappointment when beautiful things are defaced or destroyed, or even outrage if such is done needlessly. She would probably go out of her way to please others, a pursuit incompatible with arrogance. The Forgotten Realms pantheon is especially nice (in my opinion) for supporting a wide variety of faiths for paladins. My favorites are Sune and Ilmater. I have wanted to play a paladin of Sune for a long while, but just haven't gotten the opportunity. Also, what Stormbrand posted above is highly worth reading. Props for that. /woot
SirGoodyTwoShoes 10-31-07, 06:53 PM	Thanks so much to everyone who's chimed in so far. You guys have given me a lot of awesome ideas that I hadn't thought of, specifically with some of the variations on the traditional paladin (like the variants and the pally of Sune, specifically), most of which I will probably try to play at the next opportunity. For this guy, though, I think I'll have him struggle primarily with the occasional conflicts between following the law and doing what's right, as I want to stay very much in line with the lawful good, shining paragon of honor and justice, but I want him to be very human at the same time and avoid falling into the "too-perfect" stigma of many paladins-meaning some internal struggle with his path. After all, for you Dragonlance fans out there, one of the things that made Goldmoon's eventual faith so strong was her initial doubt and skepticism. He has to learn directly why he's a paladin and not robin hood. Anyway, I plan on him starting out living in a city/region ruled by a tyrant king, and even being a rebel of some variety until he learns (not sure yet by what mechanism or plot device) that he must work within the system (being lawful) to overcome its frailties without sacrificing his own moral good (the good)...basically, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington", but smiting evil and laying on hands instead of talking with a charming, southern accent. I can see some dramatic duels between him and local governors (all very legal, of course) and gaining positions of power due to his high charisma and ability to sway the populace with his strong moral character. His fellow nobles/military commanders/politicians probably hate him in said Lawful Evil kingdom, but they can do little against him without losing too much support, themselves. This could make for some interesting enemies, methinks, maybe even quests given to him by his superiors in an effort to kill him off indirectly (such as, "hey, you, 6th level pally, go kill the ancient red worm terrorizing the countryside. By yourself.")
Grimcleaver 10-31-07, 07:49 PM	I think your ideas are fine. I don't see the character going in a stereotyped direction based on his backstory. In fact, I think if there's anything original I could advise it would be to go deep into that idea of a "spec-op" paladin. Generally paladins are mistakenly lumped into the mold of being these shiny-suited guys who sort of lumber toward badguys with their hand on their sword calling them to repent or die. I like the idea of one going far into enemy territory, using military tactics to break seiges and decapitate the power structures of evil organizations. I don't know how you'd feel about taking that a little farther, but I sort of like the idea of him feeling almost more like a ranger than a straight-on combat monster. He uses terrain to his advantage, is comfortable with heavy crossbows and camoflage, has his armor in a matte finish so it doesn't glint in the sunlight. To be really different, I'd recommend he be from someplace exotic. Calimshan comes quickly to mind because of it's moroccan flavor and the fact that paladin's are less of an institution there and more of a novelty. Certainly the leaders there would prefer to keep you at arms length anyway since having you fight evil "over there" will tend to cause them less problems at home than if they find powerful evil people in town getting mad at them. Like I said though, the spec-op paladin idea is a great one. I also like the idea of a crisis of faith--that there's something about the doctrine of Torm that rubs him the wrong way. He loves the religion, and zealously tries to do what is his duty, but there's something about it that just makes him rankle. Good guys who wrestle with weak will and sinning are a bit trite, but a philosophical angle where it's a good guy uncomfortable with some of the doctrines of his faith--that could be interesting. Take a look at the Tormite beliefs and roll them around for a bit. Look for something you could make an argument against. It's better if the argument is a bit emotional and visceral rather than totally logical. But yeah, I like the idea of this guy who is glad to own up to being a worshipper of Torm, but when the conversation slips into parts of his doctrine that he's not fond of he just gets kind of rigid and tense. This might in fact be why he's spitting his allegience nowadays. It would be interesting if this dual worship was causing him some difficulties with some of the Tormite clerics--that occasionally he's prone to get dragged into loud discussions with them in the back cloisters of the temple. Discussions that carry and cause shifting around in seats amongst those attempting to worship in the chapel. Anyway I hope this helps. I guess the first thing to avoiding the stereotype is to just forget about the class and think about the person of the character. Good luck!
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 07:49 PM	So is this a pure Paladin build or are you using multi-class or prestige classes? they can add flavor sometimes. Another thing that you might want to consider is how your Paladin is equipped. In the FR setting, many Pally's are Noble born, giving them the Moneys to buy that heavy armor and great sword. If your Pally lacks family wealth/Prestige, you can have all sorts of back-story about how he manged to get armor and Knightly/military rank. Which will in turn color his plans for the future. Why has your Paladin been called? God's usually call them for a reason. Is he meant to fight corruption from within the hierarchy or Lead a crusade? Have the gods be silent on this issue and leave your pally in debate inwardly about what path the God's want him to take in service if you want some angst.
SirGoodyTwoShoes 10-31-07, 08:52 PM	Like I said though, the spec-op paladin idea is a great one. I also like the idea of a crisis of faith--that there's something about the doctrine of Torm that rubs him the wrong way. He loves the religion, and zealously tries to do what is his duty, but there's something about it that just makes him rankle. Good guys who wrestle with weak will and sinning are a bit trite, but a philosophical angle where it's a good guy uncomfortable with some of the doctrines of his faith--that could be interesting. Take a look at the Tormite beliefs and roll them around for a bit. Look for something you could make an argument against. It's better if the argument is a bit emotional and visceral rather than totally logical. But yeah, I like the idea of this guy who is glad to own up to being a worshipper of Torm, but when the conversation slips into parts of his doctrine that he's not fond of he just gets kind of rigid and tense. This might in fact be why he's spitting his allegience nowadays. It would be interesting if this dual worship was causing him some difficulties with some of the Tormite clerics--that occasionally he's prone to get dragged into loud discussions with them in the back cloisters of the temple. Discussions that carry and cause shifting around in seats amongst those attempting to worship in the chapel. Anyway I hope this helps. I guess the first thing to avoiding the stereotype is to just forget about the class and think about the person of the character. Good luck! This is terrific, Grim. I'm not sure why expanding on the spec-ops idea hadn't occurred to me before. I'm a little hesitant about the camo and crossbow, as I think that might be a little extreme (I'll admit, I'm not ignoring the stereotypical paladin completely), but I see nothing wrong with a paladin who avoids unnecessary bloodshed by sneaking past the main army to challenge the enemy general in his own tent, who sneaks into an occupied village to rally to populace or who captures an enemy ballista or catapult during a siege to use against them. I also think the 'crisis of faith' would fit in perfectly with what I'm trying to do, and I like the possibility of conflicting with the clergy. I just picked up the Faith book of Forgotten Realms, so hopefully I can expand on the idea once I really get a feel for Torm. As for Calimshan, I'll definitely look into it more. I know a little about it based on some computer games I've played based in Forgotten Realms, but it could well be the exotic feel for a region I was hoping to find. Again, awesome stuff.
Uberwoot 10-31-07, 10:44 PM	I looked over Tormite dogma and picked out one line that a morally-conscious paladin might take issue with. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. This line of dogma could be cause for question in the heart of the believer; his religion seems to exist for the sole purpose of the glory of his god, but vanity is, in this character's opinion, a flaw. Such a flaw must have originated either in the higher clergy (either in the present, where he can strive for change, or in which case its truth is beyond him) or in Torm himself, and neither possibility is very comforting. The dogma's later call for painful death to traitors could also be cause for a troubled faith, but I believe that this seeming arrogance supplies a much more sound foundation for such concern. /woot
SirGoodyTwoShoes 11-01-07, 05:52 PM	Thanks, Uber. I definitely agree with you conclusion, and I think those are great points. I think I'll focus in particular on the severity of those particular tenants (as well as others I find), which could lead to some interesting interaction with my cohort (after all, a cleric of Lathlander/Pelor would certainly be more sympathetic to theories of mercy held by my paladin that a cleric of Torm might be). Good stuff.
SweetZombieJesus 11-01-07, 10:13 PM	A ranged paladin could be mechanically different enough to feel like a different character, even while following the code.
SirGoodyTwoShoes 11-01-07, 10:37 PM	I played in a group with a ranged paladin once...we made it to epic, and while my swashbuckler was unhittable and the two party wizards were leveling armies with meteor swarm, the paladin cheered at killing individual orcs with one shot (and I'm talkng the CR 1/2 kind, we were ECL 22 or something like that). I'm not saying that a good, playable, interesting build can't be done with the concept of a ranged paladin (especially with feats like ranged smite), but I've seen it done so horribly that I don't think I have the courage to give it a shot (or even a multishot for that matter :) )
Urmar 11-02-07, 11:50 AM	There is a subtle difference between iconic paladin behavior and cliche behavior. Your paladin's specific motivations are certainly variable. But the core paladin ideals embrace certain virtues, notably duty, justice, sacrifice, honor, truthfulness, and mercy. These virtues are usually in harmony in most situations, but when they are in conflict, a paladin must seek the greatest good. Build your paladin around the iconic virtue that typifies him. And there is nothing wrong with being a paladin introvert, who leads by example and orates when necessary, rather than the irritating prosletizer. One of the better examples of a FR Paladin of Torm, IMO, is Khelden (I might have the name wrong) from Baldur's Gate II. He is an imperfect man struggling with real problems, torn between his duty and his family. A measure of internal conflict will bring out your RP enjoyment.
SirGoodyTwoShoes 11-02-07, 12:24 PM	One of the better examples of a FR Paladin of Torm, IMO, is Khelden (I might have the name wrong) from Baldur's Gate II. He is an imperfect man struggling with real problems, torn between his duty and his family. A measure of internal conflict will bring out your RP enjoyment. I agree wholeheartedly. Although I think his name was Kheldorn, he's been one of my favorite portrayals of the Dnd paladin. Although his struggle was specifically a matter of duty to his family vs. duty to the order of the Radiant Heart, and my paladin will probably focus on the challenges faced when the "lawful" isn't in line with the "good", I'll draw a lot of inspiration from Kheldorn.
Outsider Subtype 11-02-07, 01:33 PM	Another reason why Keldorn was not cliche is that he was a middle-aged to older man with a middle-aged to older man's problems. In my opinion, the cliche paladin is a brash young guy.
elliott20 11-02-07, 04:11 PM	what *IS* a cliched paladin? Really, to me, a cliched paladin really just means a paladin who chooses not to have a personality beyond his/her holy calling. Now, to be fair, a paladin is a rather restrictive class because of the archetype it was based off of... St. George, Roland and the twelve peers, Arthurian Knights, etc. There is a very specific image that the word paladin often conjures, and it is often a knight in shining armor. But if you ask me, I can tell the difference between Lancelot and King Arthur in rather dramatic ways, as I can between King Arthur and Galahad. Paladinhood denotes a certain code of conduct, not a certain personality or even character. Alignment is a suggestion of a person's moral compass yes, but that moral compass is arrived at through different means and evoked through different methods. that is how I would make a paladin non-cliche and interesting.
Kaunka 11-03-07, 09:27 AM	One of the biggest problems for any paladin is figuring out where they fit in in the world. Although they all stand for ideals such as truth, justice, courage and honour, in practice these things are hard to uphold. One of Tyr's problems from FRs is "Though he sees himself as a father figure who wants to deal with others with love, courage and the strenght of the bonds of family, he knows that such can never be in an imperfect world." Trying to overcome these difficulties is part of what makes the paladin so appealing to me. In one of the campaigns I played in our group came to a village that was being ruled over by a tyrannical Blackguard, who up until a few months ago had been a paladin and had defended the village for years. However the villagers started to take him for granted and treated him as little more that a tool to ensure their safety. When much of the village was destroyed by a marauding dragon, the villagers blamed the paladin for the destruction of their homes and excluded him from them. The paladin worked even harder to try and prove himself to them, but the only thing the villagers gave him was contempt. Eventually as such is wont to do, the bandits united behind one, and stormed the village. Though the paladin fought them off and defeated their leader in combat, he was left for dead by the villagers. Finally the paladin lost his faith in humanity and vowed he would make the villagers see how much they had taken for granted. After wandering the hills and uniting the remaing bandits under his rule he stormed the village and took it in a single night. For the next few weeks he made the villagers live in poverty and slavery and public humiliation was common. We then arrived on the scene and over the next few sessions managed to free the villagers and confront the Blackguard who met the insults and taunts of the villagers with retorts about their selfishness. Because of the ring of discern lies I had on we knew he was telling the truth and the villagers were trying pass themselves off as the victims. We offered him redemption but instead he offered us a chance to join him and in his words "open our eyes to the truth of humanity". Eventually he fled but not before warning us that we would eventually see the truth with our own eyes, and if we would still feel that people like the villagers were worth saving. Moral dilemas like this plauged us for some time and made us all question wether people like this really were worth fighting for. My paladin even went neutral for a time after witnessing first hand the corruption in a supposedly Lawful Good society and walking out in disgust.
Dravda 11-09-07, 02:49 AM	Here's KIND of an alternative paladin: bring your emphasis away from smiting and more toward healing. This is NOT optimized. If you want a really good healer, get a cleric. But if you bust out the BoED, you can find some cool options (especially Stigmata and the Vows). With Stigmata especially, you can become a martyr as you accept your comrades' wounds as your own. I'm ready to play this paladin, who has already been termed, "The Emo Paladin" by my DM. Shift your focus from offensive abilities to helping your allies (The "Vanguard" feat progression from PHB II is a good starting point), and act like everyone's mother. Everyone comes back in one piece, no one gets left behind. If there's a sacrifice to be made, do it. Always take the smaller portion of treasure. Attack the biggest enemies first, unless of course your team needs you on defense. These things should make for an interesting paladin. -Count Dravda
Vaeliorin 11-11-07, 05:03 AM	Mount: Heavy Warhorse (I am not very focused on the mount, since the PrC's I intend to take don't really advance the mount abilities any) I realize this is the character development board, and not the char ops board, but can I suggest if you care so little for your mount you trade it out for the charging smite option from PHB II? That being said, remember that just because you are a paladin doesn't mean that you will get along with everyone else who is a paladin, or everyone else who is lawful good. Having played a paladin in the FR in the past, my character usually referred to paladins (and really all followers of Helm) as "heartless idiots". Of course, I was a paladin of Mystra, and Mystra and Helm have had their differences in the past (and I personally mark Helm's alignment as lawful stupid.) It's just something I think people tend to forget when they're playing paladins. All paladins don't get along, and some might have drastically different feelings about things as compared to paladins of another order, to the point that arguments may take a violent turn. Also, make sure your DM realizes that it isn't a single act that changes your alignment, but a series of acts. This gives you leeway to occasionally do things that your character might feel are right but aren't necessarily lawful good.
ArkhamInmate 11-13-07, 08:05 PM	Depending on how loose your DM allows you to play with the LG alignment you can have a bit of fun with the whole idea of retribution, which is what my last paladin was more or less based on, he never gave evil a chance to repent and quite a few times caused some problems in the group for not allowing evil to surrender, instead killing them in combat almost viciously
The_Shaman 11-13-07, 09:27 PM	Depending on how loose your DM allows you to play with the LG alignment you can have a bit of fun with the whole idea of retribution, which is what my last paladin was more or less based on, he never gave evil a chance to repent and quite a few times caused some problems in the group for not allowing evil to surrender, instead killing them in combat almost viciously Was he lawful good, really?
ArkhamInmate 11-13-07, 09:39 PM	Was he lawful good, really? Always followed the letter of the law, and only killed evil creatures, though honestly, the adventure path did play fast and loose with most of the rules, if it was a more serious campaign i doubt i would have treated him like that, as it was he was just really ****** off at evil and quoted bruce campbell alot
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 06:44 AM	Doesn't make him good though. There's no problem at a LN only killing evil... heck, you can probably make a LE character who only kills evil characters*... s/he's just a complete ******* to everyone else ;) Then again, if the campaign doesn't bother that much with the rules, it could be accepted. *: when you think of it, how many people did Stalin or Hitler personally kill? Heck, I've heard that Dzerzhinsky only personally killed one person, and was in near shock afterwards.
Nagusto999 11-21-07, 07:39 AM	I always liked the idea of the sneaky paladin. Combine some ranger or rogue levels, grab some ranks in move silently and hide, and grab a Guerilla Spear from Complete Adventurer. Spears seem to be a good Paladin weapon for me, you know most pallys walk around with sword and board. Stalk your foes, detect evil, wait for the perfect moment, and then & only then do you smite your foe in the back.
The_Shaman 11-21-07, 08:46 AM	You could combine that with a bit of a detective - say the paladin, after coming home after the war, sniffs out a massive fraud or conspiracy in his country. Torm has been big on fighting corruption and treason to begin with (at least since the Time of Trouble) so a devoted paladin might become a bit of a church-affiliated Sherlock Holmes ;) . Doubly so since the Zhentarim, the agents of Torm's nemesis, use stealth as often as force. If you can afford to, have a good intelligence and use those skill points. Consider even putting a few points - ideally from multiclassing or PrCs that have them as class skills - into gather information and knowledge local, and keep diplomacy and Sense motive high. Paladins aren't supposed to be particularly smart, at least according to their detractors - so use that stereotype to your favor. While I dislike these PrCs with a passion, the Grey Guard and the Church Inquisitor flavor texts are a good way to get started. Just remember: you may have been a soldier, but you are a paladin, and when the chips are down you do the good thing even if it harms you. Also, be open-minded about most religions. It is ironical that Torm's church, which is one of the least tolerant in some respects (remember what Torm wants you to do with those you consider traitors) is also very tolerant of other good faiths... and in fact considers itself indebted to them. Keep this in mind: by and large, your church owes people. Check out the Debts and the other peculiarities in Torm's creed in Faiths and Pantheons and work them in... maybe with a twist. Perhaps you feel obliged to go to other good deities' temples and chat up the clerics, ask what's up in town, maybe tithe a little, maybe (particularly if you're younger) flirt with some of them... You're a paladin, not a eunuch ;) . On an unrelated issue, why have a cleric of Pelor in the Realms, where there is a nearly identical local deity? If you want to use the PrC, just rename the RSoP into Radiant Servant of Lathander, and you're done. As for background... Your choice. Some paladins are noble-born, but some are not. In Torm's church, there is a larger than normal percentage of the latter both due to the blessing Torm bestowed on the orphans of the Martyrs from his fight with Bane and the reputation his church has gained since (which might, accidentally, lead to a few babies left on the temple footsteps by parents who can't support them). Judging by your backstory and the military background, I'd say your character would best fit as a minor noble - while the Realms aren't as fixed as medieval Europe, army commanders would most likely be nobles, and have living - and respectable - families.
danelsan 11-24-07, 11:57 AM	To make a more sneaky paladin,as was sugested (a "SpecOps" pally), I would with some levels of rogue or ranger (I prefer ranger), maybe both. Take a look at the feats Devoted Inquisitor and Devoted Tracker in the Complete Adventurer Handbook. The last one specially provide very good class feature sinergy from ranger and pally (levels stack for wild empathy and smite damage, special mount and animal companion are the same - receiving the benefits of both - this is even better if your god has some animal associated with him)