Help with a Character Concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with a Character Concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iyestorm
06-20-05, 03:35 PM Hey everybody! How ya doin'? Got a (maybe) new concept for yas.

Paladins are Lawful Good. They follow a strict code. I'm probably not gonna play a paladin, but the answers to my question may change that. Lawful Good symbolizes an upstanding member of society. To most of us, that probably says "help old ladies across the street" and such. Now, what I wanna do is create a Paladin that's meaner than... uh... I can't think of any metaphors for that, but you know what I mean. My challenge for you is to help us all to see exactly how much of the first half of a hand-and-a-half sword we can make this guy without breaking his code. He needs to remain an upstanding member of society, but he needs to be very, very mean.

Wow... suddenly I have the urge to turn this into a contest... If only I knew how... Ooh! I'll call it "World's Meanest Paladin Awards 2005" or something.

...I think I'll name him Melchovik or Melchior... I dunno... he seems like a "Mel" to me. Actually, that's more of a personal touch... I'll decide later.

...knick, knack, paddywhack, give a--crap, is this thing still on?!

Enough rambling on my part, I SUMMON THEE POSTERS TO GRANT ME ADVICE!!!

PS: This is the right place for this topic, right?
Need_A_Life
06-20-05, 04:11 PM Let me see what traits can be put into a paladin that makes him evil without breaking his code.

Racism - Frown at people and insult their lowly heritedge
Show no mercy - the wounded enemy begging for mercy has just wasted his last breath, this man shows no mercy especially to those who would engage in combat with him.
Destroy Evil on Sight - Detect Evil is used at all times and if he detects it that person will die on the spot, no trial or appeal. Redemption is a word not found in his dictionary.
Right by Power - anyone who dares question his beliefs will be challenged to a formal duel and there utterly destroyed (since the paladin will be stronger than any commoner).
'Exalted' - This guy feels so rightous and he is - according to the ancient texts of his god, which he strives to fulfill, that they are slightly twisted from the current faith doesn't matter. He is a religious fanatic and feels that his cause is more important than anything.
'Holy' Body - Since he is 'holy' anyone who touches him is desecrating his body by their impure touch alone, this is considered as grave an offense at desecrating an alter and the penalty is instant death.
Does not consort with Evil - This should be mentioned again. Any evil he detects will be destroyed. If he sees an evil/chaotic act (breaking the law) he will destroy the wrongdoer.
Holy Vow - Book of Exalted Deeds offer Vow of Abstinence, Vow of Purity, Vow of Poverty and a few others. He takes these vows and fulfill them as it was intended to REGARDLESS OF CONSEQUENCES!
Strike down the unbeliever - Anyone who believes anything other than what he believes is killed. He might invest in an item of constant Detect Thoughts to aid him in the campaign.

These are just the beginning. Note that all of these are GOOD traits, just taken to extremes.
Frozenpartnah
06-21-05, 05:55 AM Well, the first thing to consider is your peers (whom you game with) and DM's perceptions of Lawful Good- These will limit how bad a paladin can be, before losing that "Good" alignment.

In my experiences (admittedly limited), I tend to see two perspectives used for determining goodness- the "as long as you explicitly fight evil, you are good" camp, and then the other camp that is sort of an Emerson/Thoreau "Good will towards all men" sort of take on paladins, where she or he would be the sort of benevolent and charming personality that could inspire friendship in that same murderer they just had to put down, if circumstances hadn't been played out as they did.

The latter is by far more rare, but seems to what the current players handbook originally suggested paladins being: rare people born with the morals of absolute living saints who become holy warriors. It's a problem if this is the vision of what a paladin in your DM's mind, because the a flawed paladin may seem less than good, and thereby be Lawful Neutral, rather than Lawful Good, resulting in the loss of paladin hood. But I don't think this is the popular image- I see flawed paladins more and more often, so the former perspective of "squashing evil critters = all the good you need" is usually the one played with.

Still, I'll offer my spin that sort of walks a middle ground (I think..) in the safety between the two interpretations.

I believe a paladin can be socially a complete jerk, and still stand up to the description of being "a good person," even if it isn't blatantly obvious to the PCs or NPCs around him. Perhaps he is cold and distant when in social settings? Perhaps the paladin is rude and thoroughly judgmental, outwardly offering out reasons why he doesn't like people who try speaking to them? Perhaps he has reasons for being an intolerable, stuck up dolt? Is he so icy and socially spiteful because he is afraid to get close to anyone, due to the dangerous nature of his life? Does he not give coins to the beggar outside the public building, because he warily notes that it would cause a convergence of more beggars to congest the area? He could sternly (rudely and forcefully- albeit mind you, the extent of injury to civilians usually is not good) turn the poor person away for that reason, but deep down wishing there was someway he really could do something about the extreme poverty in the area (which at the time, is just simply beyond his grasp)? Social arrogance is a valid way to be completely obnoxious, without being a bad guy in the grand scheme of things.

As mentioned above, no mercy is another route, but needs a moment to justify. One village of the Orc tribe that has been sacking and murdering lately does indeed have very young orcs in their huts- the children of the orcs that are doing the assaults. The orcs are too belligerent to negotiate, so does the knowledge of the infants stop the Paladin from bringing justice? No. Ideally, the orcs would have been turned away from their activities, and the younger generation would not have been involved, or the paladin put into a place of moral delimma, but that is just beyond the lone paladin's capabilities. If there are more scattered villages in the tribe that must be dealt with, can that Paladin take it upon himself to try and find a place to leave the young orcs? Probably not. If their parents were struck down for raising a weapon to the paladin, that is their mistake. And if the young orcs are of an age would try to attack the paladin in a display of rage, there simply isn't much else that can be helped. Although, a skilled paladin would likely only need to cripple unskilled younglings who lost their foolish parents, to get the point across that he is not to be trifled with. That, and a crippled young orc eventually finding other orcs would serve as a living example of what happens when a tribe tries too hard to take over territory from humans- the creatures respect demonstrations of power, but if it angers them, they are apt to get angry over anything eventually anyway. At least that one crippled orc wouldn't be poising a threat anytime soon. Being good does not mean that you can’t be coldly efficient.

Some of my worse experiences urge me to warn against running around with detect evil and beating senseless anyone that turns out positive- without knowing the reasons why that person is evil, and the proper punishment to fit the crime, most DMs will just begin to say that is not a Lawful, and perhaps even good, way to go about things. If anything, detect evil would give the paladin someone to investigate and analyze, before dealing out justice. Don't be surprised though is perhaps 50% of a populace at any given time might show up as slightly evil- even "evil" people can have normal lives and spend a majority of it just doing normal things, completely unaware and unattached to dark gods and what have you.

Hope these speculations help in some way.
Iyestorm
06-28-05, 12:06 PM Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I just got back. Good ideas overall, although Need_A_Life's suggestions still seem a bit too evil to me. Okay, a lot too evil. Maybe that's just me though.

Frozen; what if he goes around with detect evil and regularly badgers those that show up on the radar? Not killing them or anything, but causing some mild damage (physical/emotional/monetary/whatever) here and there, and generally being a nuisence (sp?)
DBoot
06-28-05, 06:06 PM You needn't be bad or evil to be mean. You could carry yourself in a very gruff manner that makes everyone feel uncomortable. You could not tip people. You could just be rude without jeapordizing your paladinhood. After all good is all about what your goals are and why as well as how you accomplish it. Not whether or not you came across as a belligerant ass in the process.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iyestorm 06-20-05, 03:35 PM	Hey everybody! How ya doin'? Got a (maybe) new concept for yas. Paladins are Lawful Good. They follow a strict code. I'm probably not gonna play a paladin, but the answers to my question may change that. Lawful Good symbolizes an upstanding member of society. To most of us, that probably says "help old ladies across the street" and such. Now, what I wanna do is create a Paladin that's meaner than... uh... I can't think of any metaphors for that, but you know what I mean. My challenge for you is to help us all to see exactly how much of the first half of a hand-and-a-half sword we can make this guy without breaking his code. He needs to remain an upstanding member of society, but he needs to be very, very mean. Wow... suddenly I have the urge to turn this into a contest... If only I knew how... Ooh! I'll call it "World's Meanest Paladin Awards 2005" or something. ...I think I'll name him Melchovik or Melchior... I dunno... he seems like a "Mel" to me. Actually, that's more of a personal touch... I'll decide later. ...knick, knack, paddywhack, give a--crap, is this thing still on?! Enough rambling on my part, I SUMMON THEE POSTERS TO GRANT ME ADVICE!!! PS: This is the right place for this topic, right?
Need_A_Life 06-20-05, 04:11 PM	Let me see what traits can be put into a paladin that makes him evil without breaking his code. Racism - Frown at people and insult their lowly heritedge Show no mercy - the wounded enemy begging for mercy has just wasted his last breath, this man shows no mercy especially to those who would engage in combat with him. Destroy Evil on Sight - Detect Evil is used at all times and if he detects it that person will die on the spot, no trial or appeal. Redemption is a word not found in his dictionary. Right by Power - anyone who dares question his beliefs will be challenged to a formal duel and there utterly destroyed (since the paladin will be stronger than any commoner). 'Exalted' - This guy feels so rightous and he is - according to the ancient texts of his god, which he strives to fulfill, that they are slightly twisted from the current faith doesn't matter. He is a religious fanatic and feels that his cause is more important than anything. 'Holy' Body - Since he is 'holy' anyone who touches him is desecrating his body by their impure touch alone, this is considered as grave an offense at desecrating an alter and the penalty is instant death. Does not consort with Evil - This should be mentioned again. Any evil he detects will be destroyed. If he sees an evil/chaotic act (breaking the law) he will destroy the wrongdoer. Holy Vow - Book of Exalted Deeds offer Vow of Abstinence, Vow of Purity, Vow of Poverty and a few others. He takes these vows and fulfill them as it was intended to REGARDLESS OF CONSEQUENCES! Strike down the unbeliever - Anyone who believes anything other than what he believes is killed. He might invest in an item of constant Detect Thoughts to aid him in the campaign. These are just the beginning. Note that all of these are GOOD traits, just taken to extremes.
Frozenpartnah 06-21-05, 05:55 AM	Well, the first thing to consider is your peers (whom you game with) and DM's perceptions of Lawful Good- These will limit how bad a paladin can be, before losing that "Good" alignment. In my experiences (admittedly limited), I tend to see two perspectives used for determining goodness- the "as long as you explicitly fight evil, you are good" camp, and then the other camp that is sort of an Emerson/Thoreau "Good will towards all men" sort of take on paladins, where she or he would be the sort of benevolent and charming personality that could inspire friendship in that same murderer they just had to put down, if circumstances hadn't been played out as they did. The latter is by far more rare, but seems to what the current players handbook originally suggested paladins being: rare people born with the morals of absolute living saints who become holy warriors. It's a problem if this is the vision of what a paladin in your DM's mind, because the a flawed paladin may seem less than good, and thereby be Lawful Neutral, rather than Lawful Good, resulting in the loss of paladin hood. But I don't think this is the popular image- I see flawed paladins more and more often, so the former perspective of "squashing evil critters = all the good you need" is usually the one played with. Still, I'll offer my spin that sort of walks a middle ground (I think..) in the safety between the two interpretations. I believe a paladin can be socially a complete jerk, and still stand up to the description of being "a good person," even if it isn't blatantly obvious to the PCs or NPCs around him. Perhaps he is cold and distant when in social settings? Perhaps the paladin is rude and thoroughly judgmental, outwardly offering out reasons why he doesn't like people who try speaking to them? Perhaps he has reasons for being an intolerable, stuck up dolt? Is he so icy and socially spiteful because he is afraid to get close to anyone, due to the dangerous nature of his life? Does he not give coins to the beggar outside the public building, because he warily notes that it would cause a convergence of more beggars to congest the area? He could sternly (rudely and forcefully- albeit mind you, the extent of injury to civilians usually is not good) turn the poor person away for that reason, but deep down wishing there was someway he really could do something about the extreme poverty in the area (which at the time, is just simply beyond his grasp)? Social arrogance is a valid way to be completely obnoxious, without being a bad guy in the grand scheme of things. As mentioned above, no mercy is another route, but needs a moment to justify. One village of the Orc tribe that has been sacking and murdering lately does indeed have very young orcs in their huts- the children of the orcs that are doing the assaults. The orcs are too belligerent to negotiate, so does the knowledge of the infants stop the Paladin from bringing justice? No. Ideally, the orcs would have been turned away from their activities, and the younger generation would not have been involved, or the paladin put into a place of moral delimma, but that is just beyond the lone paladin's capabilities. If there are more scattered villages in the tribe that must be dealt with, can that Paladin take it upon himself to try and find a place to leave the young orcs? Probably not. If their parents were struck down for raising a weapon to the paladin, that is their mistake. And if the young orcs are of an age would try to attack the paladin in a display of rage, there simply isn't much else that can be helped. Although, a skilled paladin would likely only need to cripple unskilled younglings who lost their foolish parents, to get the point across that he is not to be trifled with. That, and a crippled young orc eventually finding other orcs would serve as a living example of what happens when a tribe tries too hard to take over territory from humans- the creatures respect demonstrations of power, but if it angers them, they are apt to get angry over anything eventually anyway. At least that one crippled orc wouldn't be poising a threat anytime soon. Being good does not mean that you can’t be coldly efficient. Some of my worse experiences urge me to warn against running around with detect evil and beating senseless anyone that turns out positive- without knowing the reasons why that person is evil, and the proper punishment to fit the crime, most DMs will just begin to say that is not a Lawful, and perhaps even good, way to go about things. If anything, detect evil would give the paladin someone to investigate and analyze, before dealing out justice. Don't be surprised though is perhaps 50% of a populace at any given time might show up as slightly evil- even "evil" people can have normal lives and spend a majority of it just doing normal things, completely unaware and unattached to dark gods and what have you. Hope these speculations help in some way.
Iyestorm 06-28-05, 12:06 PM	Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I just got back. Good ideas overall, although Need_A_Life's suggestions still seem a bit too evil to me. Okay, a lot too evil. Maybe that's just me though. Frozen; what if he goes around with detect evil and regularly badgers those that show up on the radar? Not killing them or anything, but causing some mild damage (physical/emotional/monetary/whatever) here and there, and generally being a nuisence (sp?)
DBoot 06-28-05, 06:06 PM	You needn't be bad or evil to be mean. You could carry yourself in a very gruff manner that makes everyone feel uncomortable. You could not tip people. You could just be rude without jeapordizing your paladinhood. After all good is all about what your goals are and why as well as how you accomplish it. Not whether or not you came across as a belligerant ass in the process.