Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SwarthmoreDB 02-18-07, 01:28 AM	Hey all, hope things are going well with any campaigns you're in. I'm gonna start playing in an Eberron campaign soon, and this time I'd like to play a character that I've been thinking about for now. The potential problems are that I want to make her evil; I'm hoping for either LE ror CE, but NE is also useful. This means that somewhat it will tie into some questions also about how to play a character like this without going around and killing NPCs randomly and also not being a dumbass and anger my fellow PCs off repeatedly. Basically, my character would be a female rogue/warlock (likely to start off as rogue but then do warlock), and thus would have a high charisma as she will be using seduction in order to manipulate people. As for race I haven't yet decided, but I'm thinking either as a tiefling descended from an erinyes to represent more of a LE outlook as a pure manipulator or as a feytouched girl for a more CE, as fey-blooded creatures tend to be chaotic*. I am open to also being NE for either of the two races. As for the actual background, I want her to be very alluring and seductive, basically a femme fatale who will manipulate anyone with money and power to swindle them out of both. If she is tiefling, likely she will use the law and try to usurp power very carefully and build up influence, but still retain people at her mercy. If she's feytouched, she will still use the same seduction but is likely to betray those she's toyed with and smother it in their faces; she would not do any killing herself (except in battle) but would likely use random goons or hired assassins. As NE, she'd likely do a combination of both. So, what do you guys think of this? Does it sound a bit cliche, or am I taking somewhat of correct steps for this character? Please be very blunt about this build, as I want her to be a believable character and not just a machine that can sneak attack using eldritch blast :P * I'll be using the system where instead of them being both LA +1, they are LA 0 and trade off the level for a weaker build.
trickydevl666 02-18-07, 02:09 AM	Ooh.. sneak attacking warlock.... Well... I tend to favor LE over CE... but I also tend to favor NE over LE... but that's because I like the versatility that NE has while still being evil... but I believe that your character should be more lawful... CE I don't think would work that well... (My DM won't let me have a CE Dread Necro Warlock :( ) I just think neutral would be better for this character whatever way you decide to go.... and just have it lean towards what your heritage is... So I say go NE towards lawful, I havne't seen feytouched, but I have seen tiefling. Go Lawful, step on those you seduce, it will be fun. I just don't think chaotic evil is the best way to go for this character... it seems that this character definitely is a planner, and chaos and plans don't usually go that well... Just because your lawful doesn't mean that she can't rub it in her past toy's faces that she no longer is with them. Maybe part of her own set of codes could be to let those she's played with know they are of no more use to her, it doesn't have to be a nice way either. It does sound a tad cliche, but I don't mind, a bit cliche is good every now and then, but just as long as you add a bit of flare. And right now the soundtrack of evita is running through my head all because your character idea reminds me of that musical... Tis a good thing though. I'm sorry if I repeated myself or if this isn't that much help... my brain is now almost officially dead which means it is time to rest. Bonsoir, I hope this helps.
DivineDragoonXD 02-19-07, 12:45 PM	Well for the your character archtype I would personally go Rogue/Bequiler PHB II. I would also either choose LE or NE. Stick with the Tiefling but I dont think the +1 LA is worth the abilities.
doink1212 02-19-07, 11:59 PM	I agree that the beguiler/rogue combo is more what you are likely looking for. The spells are better than the invocatinos for the purpose of your char. Quickly reading this character it sounds like a chaotic Evil to me.
SwarthmoreDB 02-20-07, 01:00 AM	Well for the your character archtype I would personally go Rogue/Bequiler PHB II. I would also either choose LE or NE. Stick with the Tiefling but I dont think the +1 LA is worth the abilities. I agree that the beguiler/rogue combo is more what you are likely looking for. The spells are better than the invocatinos for the purpose of your char. Quickly reading this character it sounds like a chaotic Evil to me. There was a reason why I didn't want the rogue/beguiler build: because I wanted to make an emphasis on the fact that her power comes from something diabolical or eldritch-like (hence the warlock levels). The build itself will likely be something like [Rog 4/Warl 16]. Not mentioning this on the post was my fault actually... Also, I'm actually more interested in the actual backstory. Again, not to sound too cliched, but I wanted to give her a very sad background that would justify why she uses her eldritch powers and femme fatale qualities to get ahead in her life, namely, the use of eldritch power to physically and magically hurt opponents, but the use of sensuality and pure charisma and cunning to outwit them. She'd likely do deception mostly without the use of magic. The one thought I had in mind mostly was that I was also thinking that the reason why she's like this is because she has a connection to the Blood of Vol. I was thinking that they captured her ancestor (either a powerful erinyes or fey, possibly a nymph) a few decades back and thus bred her in order to be a special agent. Also, her mother and father (or any 'caretakers') also led her to (correctly) believe that because of her special descent as a devil-blooded or fey-blooded agent in the trust of the Blood of Vol, she thinks she's unique. She'd possibly be a double agent, spy, informant, mole, or a combination of all. I also wanted to, I have no clue how, include the supernatural being thought-process, such that she would act somewhat as if she had to comply with certain superstitious things or else she'd go powerless (e.g., needing to be invited in a home to enter, having to walk around a pile of salt, avoiding contact with cold iron, not looking at female with blue eyes in the face, etc.) to give her more of a flavor. However, I'm hoping that the inclusion of this doesn't detract too much from the current thought in my mind about her or her potential connection to Blood of Vol. Also, I think due to the nature of the organization, she'll either be LE (regardless of race) or simply NE; I'm just hoping that I can figure out how to play either of them without outright betraying the party or going around and murdering NPCs at random :D . So, now that you have some more info, what do you guys think?
sinrae_kinesti 02-20-07, 03:23 AM	I would have to agree with the LE sentiments but if your going to be running with a group of goody goods at low levels you could start with LN so the groups paladin or cleric couldnt randomly detect evil then you have the whole group on you trying to kill you. (had it happen to a LE wizard i played once) I think the archetype Lawful Evil Villian is rarely played well (at least where I am from) and you have the basics down pretty well. as for back story perhaps you should delve more into your human parent's reaction to the breeding with a demon (if you go the tiefling route) and the severe mental shock that such a mating would cause perhaps your mother was raped by a horned devil or a barbed devil and the sheer agony of the encounter broke her will and she tried to abort the child by stabbing herself and a goodly cleric save both the child and the mother's lives only for the mother to beat the child growing up because it reminded her of the devil who commited the atrocity against her.
trickydevl666 02-20-07, 08:22 PM	Well... I don't know if Vol would be that interested in creating a tiefling or feytouched... maybe her other agent, the order of the emerald claw. But the reason I say this is that Vol's main goal seems to be to bring the mark of death back into existence by breeding half-dragons. However if you maket he ties closer to the Emerald Claw, then it would make more sense since they are her spies and they do most of Vol's dirty work. So I say you should go the devil heritage root and go LE. The Blood/Claw decided to try experimenting to create better servants. So they decided to breed devils with humans, and created your character as one of their several dozen or so. From early on your character seemed to have a talent for intrigue and so they decided to train you as one of their infiltrators, hence the rogue. Then later on your warlock powers manifested. There is a framework if you decide to go devil... Not sure how to continue it, but hope that is useful. Also if your opposed to rogue/beguiler... what about beguiler/warlock/eldritch theurge... almost the same only minus the trapsense sneakattack... and have more ways to charm besides your high invocation and high charisma... Just a thought.
DarthDave 02-20-07, 10:35 PM	Look into a Lurk (Complete Psionic)...innate powers (psionic) and gains sneak attack kinds of abilities. One class... Or- look into the ray-specialized PrC in Complete Scoundrel for a sorcerer with lots of Infernal Heritage feats from PHB2. In my experience, people want to build really cool characters, but rarely want to spend feats to make the character more playable in step with the design. Consider your opinions. At least, you could *blame* you evil bent on your heritage.
SwarthmoreDB 02-21-07, 03:07 AM	I would have to agree with the LE sentiments but if your going to be running with a group of goody goods at low levels you could start with LN so the groups paladin or cleric couldnt randomly detect evil then you have the whole group on you trying to kill you. (had it happen to a LE wizard i played once) I think the archetype Lawful Evil Villian is rarely played well (at least where I am from) and you have the basics down pretty well. as for back story perhaps you should delve more into your human parent's reaction to the breeding with a demon (if you go the tiefling route) and the severe mental shock that such a mating would cause perhaps your mother was raped by a horned devil or a barbed devil and the sheer agony of the encounter broke her will and she tried to abort the child by stabbing herself and a goodly cleric save both the child and the mother's lives only for the mother to beat the child growing up because it reminded her of the devil who commited the atrocity against her. Hmm... I'll keep that in mind; although I have a good feeling that the people I'll be playing with probably won't do that sort of thing and just outright kill my character. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll probably not worry about it unless someone has a paladin on them who's really tight-assed about killing evil. Maybe I could play it off as just being very, very selfish and cruel (but not necessarily 'evil'). As to the part about being resentful about being raped by the demons, I don't think that that would work. If anything, I want her backstory to be due to erinyes-descent (even though an erinyes could theoretically shapechange to a male, IIRC). Not only that, but as an agent tied to Blood of Vol or as someone mention, more towards Order of the Emerald Claw, she'd likely be at least 'nurtured' if only to be little more than a sentient tool. Also, I figure she'd be at least either a grand-child or great-grandchild of the original erinyes anyway (if she was the daughter, I'd give her the half-demon template), so I got that solved. Well... I don't know if Vol would be that interested in creating a tiefling or feytouched... maybe her other agent, the order of the emerald claw. But the reason I say this is that Vol's main goal seems to be to bring the mark of death back into existence by breeding half-dragons. However if you maket he ties closer to the Emerald Claw, then it would make more sense since they are her spies and they do most of Vol's dirty work. So I say you should go the devil heritage root and go LE. The Blood/Claw decided to try experimenting to create better servants. So they decided to breed devils with humans, and created your character as one of their several dozen or so. From early on your character seemed to have a talent for intrigue and so they decided to train you as one of their infiltrators, hence the rogue. Then later on your warlock powers manifested. There is a framework if you decide to go devil... Not sure how to continue it, but hope that is useful. Wow, that's really a great backstory; I think I may very well steal it verbatim. I'm sure I can change it (slightly) to make something similar if they decided to breed half-fey, caveat being that it really seems to make more sense for them to breed tieflings than fey-touched humanoids. I'm sure I'll think of something... Also if your opposed to rogue/beguiler... what about beguiler/warlock/eldritch theurge... almost the same only minus the trapsense sneakattack... and have more ways to charm besides your high invocation and high charisma... Just a thought. Gyaaahh!!! That sounds horrendously complicated; also, I think I'd like to keep the sneak-attack anyway. I guess most people would prefer to play with some magic to backup the charisma checks, but I'll just stick with the combo I set up earlier. Look into a Lurk (Complete Psionic)...innate powers (psionic) and gains sneak attack kinds of abilities. One class... Or- look into the ray-specialized PrC in Complete Scoundrel for a sorcerer with lots of Infernal Heritage feats from PHB2. In my experience, people want to build really cool characters, but rarely want to spend feats to make the character more playable in step with the design. Consider your opinions. At least, you could *blame* you evil bent on your heritage. AAHHHHH!!! The drek that is named Complete Psionic and the awful (IMO) class known as the Lurk: URRGGHH... how completely unoriginal (Oohh... let's make something like a rogue, but lets make it... have psychic powers... OOHH!!!). Apologies for the mini-rant; CPsi was mostly awful in my eyes. Back to that, I'd probably avoid the Lurk; if anything I'd probably simply use the psychic rogue anyway. Also, I like to think that psionics are a little more rare to non-Kalashtar, so if possible I'll avoid them in this build. Hmm... can you explain a bit more on the final paragraph you posted, I don't understand what you mean about the spending feats to make an awesome character and the 'blame' of evil on my heritage part... Thank you all again! I will post sometime this week a draft of her (more) fleshed-out story; if anything, you might even get TWO stories...
sinrae_kinesti 02-22-07, 01:15 AM	Look into a Lurk (Complete Psionic)...innate powers (psionic) and gains sneak attack kinds of abilities. One class... Or- look into the ray-specialized PrC in Complete Scoundrel for a sorcerer with lots of Infernal Heritage feats from PHB2. In my experience, people want to build really cool characters, but rarely want to spend feats to make the character more playable in step with the design. Consider your opinions. At least, you could *blame* you evil bent on your heritage. I dont really understand the last paragraph either. playability is in character concept not feats.
Seir 02-22-07, 04:00 AM	Check out Cloaked Dancer from Complete Scoundrel. ;)
Doomed_Penguin 02-22-07, 08:10 AM	If you have Unearthed Arcana, you might consider looking at the Generic Classes (the warrior, spellcaster, and expert, I believe they're called), not to play them, but wizards took some of the class features and turned them into feats for these classes. I'm thinking, why multiclass at all? Just go warlock and take the sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion and uncanny dogde feats from the Generic Classes. Maybe your DM will let you add hide and move silently to your skill list. The way I see it, this lets you keep the flavor of your character while not loosing your invocation and eldritch blast progression. Not to mention, you can even continue full sneak attack progression this way.
DarthDave 02-22-07, 05:51 PM	I dont really understand the last paragraph either. playability is in character concept not feats. Concept is good. A wizard wielding a very large and archaic two-handed sword can be played VERY well. For fairness, I'd hope they purchased an exotic weapon proficiency feat to justify the concept, OR that the sword was for intimidation purposes only (perhaps backed by magic-like levitation, enchantment, etc.). The sorcerer heritage feats allow you to have new candy, and more ways to do things without breaking the game, but having rationale for it. More heritage feats allow your character to do greater things tied to their infernal background. As far as playablility being the paramount of role-playing, I see what you are saying. I believe that if I want my character to swing a sword really well, I'd likely place high ability scores in STR, and look at a melee class, while likely avoiding a non-melee oriented class. I suppose you could have a very liberal DM who lets characters shoot rainbows from their nostrils when they sneeze because they have fey ancestory. However, unless this uniformity and liberal interpretation is fairly distributed, players might rebel when that same fey character tries to justify free casting of Color Spray when hay fever strikes.
sinrae_kinesti 02-23-07, 01:03 AM	Concept is good. A wizard wielding a very large and archaic two-handed sword can be played VERY well. For fairness, I'd hope they purchased an exotic weapon proficiency feat to justify the concept, OR that the sword was for intimidation purposes only (perhaps backed by magic-like levitation, enchantment, etc.). The sorcerer heritage feats allow you to have new candy, and more ways to do things without breaking the game, but having rationale for it. More heritage feats allow your character to do greater things tied to their infernal background. As far as playablility being the paramount of role-playing, I see what you are saying. I believe that if I want my character to swing a sword really well, I'd likely place high ability scores in STR, and look at a melee class, while likely avoiding a non-melee oriented class. I suppose you could have a very liberal DM who lets characters shoot rainbows from their nostrils when they sneeze because they have fey ancestory. However, unless this uniformity and liberal interpretation is fairly distributed, players might rebel when that same fey character tries to justify free casting of Color Spray when hay fever strikes. All I'm saying is if you have a good character concept feats should take a back seat. I'm not saying that if your concept is that you are william wallace you should shoot fireballs from your eyes and bolts of lightning from your arse. also a wizard with a huge sword is an old concept, and an overused one at that. now if you were to say you want to be a deathless samurai and your flesh is made of the souls of legendary heroes long dead. i would work with you to try to come up with something that works out that we can both be happy with
DarthDave 02-23-07, 09:54 PM	1st, Sinrae Kinesti, thanks for your military service! :) 2md, points are well taken. I think some of the lesser-optimized feats can help a character actually do something neat and unusual they want to imagine. Shooting fireballs from one's eye is an optimized ability. One may contend that something akin to some of the heritage feats are less optimal, and more flavorful. I am sad to see a player opt for the routine "Improved Initiative" feat while their concept could be enhanced by some other nifty feats. I agree that feats take a backseat- except when a feat and flavor match. No optimized munchinkin worth their weight would select some of the lesser known- but fun- feats. Wizard with a sword- it was new to me...once...wow...I feel old now :(
sinrae_kinesti 02-24-07, 07:04 AM	Thank you for your patriotism Darth. We truly appreciate the support you and others like you give.
SwarthmoreDB 02-25-07, 10:52 PM	If you have Unearthed Arcana, you might consider looking at the Generic Classes (the warrior, spellcaster, and expert, I believe they're called), not to play them, but wizards took some of the class features and turned them into feats for these classes. I'm thinking, why multiclass at all? Just go warlock and take the sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion and uncanny dogde feats from the Generic Classes. Maybe your DM will let you add hide and move silently to your skill list. The way I see it, this lets you keep the flavor of your character while not loosing your invocation and eldritch blast progression. Not to mention, you can even continue full sneak attack progression this way. Nope, sorry, I can't do that. I talked to my DM and he stated that he wouldn't allow the use of the generic classes, so I'll just go with the Rogue/Warlock build. Concept is good. A wizard wielding a very large and archaic two-handed sword can be played VERY well. For fairness, I'd hope they purchased an exotic weapon proficiency feat to justify the concept, OR that the sword was for intimidation purposes only (perhaps backed by magic-like levitation, enchantment, etc.). The sorcerer heritage feats allow you to have new candy, and more ways to do things without breaking the game, but having rationale for it. More heritage feats allow your character to do greater things tied to their infernal background. As far as playablility being the paramount of role-playing, I see what you are saying. I believe that if I want my character to swing a sword really well, I'd likely place high ability scores in STR, and look at a melee class, while likely avoiding a non-melee oriented class. I suppose you could have a very liberal DM who lets characters shoot rainbows from their nostrils when they sneeze because they have fey ancestory. However, unless this uniformity and liberal interpretation is fairly distributed, players might rebel when that same fey character tries to justify free casting of Color Spray when hay fever strikes. All I'm saying is if you have a good character concept feats should take a back seat. I'm not saying that if your concept is that you are william wallace you should shoot fireballs from your eyes and bolts of lightning from your arse. also a wizard with a huge sword is an old concept, and an overused one at that. now if you were to say you want to be a deathless samurai and your flesh is made of the souls of legendary heroes long dead. i would work with you to try to come up with something that works out that we can both be happy with 1st, Sinrae Kinesti, thanks for your military service! :) 2md, points are well taken. I think some of the lesser-optimized feats can help a character actually do something neat and unusual they want to imagine. Shooting fireballs from one's eye is an optimized ability. One may contend that something akin to some of the heritage feats are less optimal, and more flavorful. I am sad to see a player opt for the routine "Improved Initiative" feat while their concept could be enhanced by some other nifty feats. I agree that feats take a backseat- except when a feat and flavor match. No optimized munchinkin worth their weight would select some of the lesser known- but fun- feats. Wizard with a sword- it was new to me...once...wow...I feel old now :( Yea, right now you two are correct; the only reason that I included the mention of how many levels of Rogue and Warlock I wanted to take was to give people an idea of how the character would be going, not how I would want her to be optimized. I would be in the wrong forum if I wanted to ask people for that. So for now, let's worry more about backstory and less about the feats and abilities she'll have and all that. I personally play characters that are more like characters that are believable in that setting than simply "ooh look i can do 1000d8 damage due to my ubar-twinky character!" and that sort of thing. Again, apologies if I'm sounding a bit smarmy; feel free to tell me if I am anyway...
SwarthmoreDB 02-26-07, 10:53 PM	Hmm... it seems that most people here think that I should go with the tiefling instead of the fey-blooded girl... hmm... and I really wanted the bonuses to charisma and dexterity too. So would the Order of Emerald Claw have a good reason to capture and try to breed a nymph? I mean, I figure if they took the proper precautions they could use a descendant of that type of being to be an overt spy (i.e., have them get close to very susceptible and easily suggestible men and women), but that's just my way of how they would work. Then again, that's just me...
sinrae_kinesti 02-27-07, 12:19 AM	Swarthmore. I'm not excatly familiar with the eberon setting. but i do know that if you favor the fey touched over the the Tiefling then by all means take it and come up with whatever explanation you desire. you seem to have story well in mind. keeping in mind that i know little of eberon it is safe to say i know nothing of the emerald claw other than what I've read in this forum. so i dont know what drives them or what makes them tick. perhaps a feytouched character would be useful simply because she is naturaly seductive and can pull information from the lips of unwitting fools. knowledge is power in any organization, and so spies are easy to come by. being that i take the order of the emarald claw to be an evil organization it would seem more likely that they would try capturing a succubus. Another thing you need to keep in mind is that D&D is a game and games are meant for you to have fun. if you would have more fun playing a tiefling then play a tiefling. if you would have more fun playing a feytouched play a feytouched