Help with Character Path...(take two!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Character Path...(take two!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnSnow
08-09-04, 05:47 PM Okay, I tried this on the character optimization boards, and got some useful advice, but not a lot that I could use. So, I'll give you this character's life story (so far) and his goals, and then any advice is appreciated. First a little campaign background.

The Realm of Olbian is a fantasy realm inspired by Arthurian Britain. The DM has set it up as a low-magic realm, where Vahdre (Dwarves) are the only non-humans which routinely interact with humans. Alfar (Elves) and Waldleuti (Gnomes) exist, but are much more otherworldly and rare (isolationist). The PCs start on the Island Duchy of Briz, the capital city (town really) of which is (not surprisingly) Briz.

Gareth was born in the capitol of Briz. An orphan, he was taken in by the thieves' guild and became a semi-successful pickpocket and scout. His mentor was a particularly cruel rogue named Cormac Darkmoon, the guild's lieutenant, who regularly beat Gareth to, in essence, show him who was boss. Despite this, Gareth is basically good-hearted and longed for a better life. As a youngster, he would climb to where he could watch the Duke's knights at their practice and dream that someday, he might escape his wretched existence. Late in his teens, Gareth was particularly taken by Elyneth, the daughter of one of the duke's knights, but realized she could never be wooed by a simple thief. After a particularly cruel beating from Cormac, Gareth fled Briz, vowing to make something better of his life.

Making his way north to a small farming town, Gareth was taken in by Sir Argoth, one of the Duke's knights, who had retired. Sir Argoth intended to teach the young man to be a knight (or at least instill in him some discipline). He was strict, but he was fair, and Gareth regards the old knight with genuine affection, the only "father" he has ever known. From Sir Argoth, Gareth heard the stories of the legendary "Gwaimegal" or "Windsword," a famous magical weapon. Gareth wishes to reclaim the Windsword and prove himself a true hero. But finding it may prove difficult. A mission for a wizard who might be able to point him in the right direction set Gareth on his adventuring career.

Through a number of adventures, Gareth has proven to be the group's "Jack of all trades." He fights reasonably well, is the group's scout, and also handles locks and traps. So far (through level 2), his entire focus (mechanics-wise) has been as Rogue. However, for roleplaying reasons, I think it's sensible for Gareth to, at this point, begin his transition from simple rogue to "respectable adventurer." Options include Swashbuckler, a style of fighting considered somewhat dishonorable in Olbian, Fighter, and Ranger (we've encountered a Ranger whose skills impressed Gareth greatly). I don't want him to just go willy-nilly changing careers, but the group still NEEDS a rogue "skill-monkey." So the question is: how do I reconcile the needed skills with the character's personality and goals? Suggestions appreciated.
Kingside_Bishop
08-10-04, 10:40 PM Great story...

Taking levels in Ranger seem like a good idea to me. You get more skill points, so you can take ranks in Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock (even if they will be cross class) as long as you have a reasonably high intelligence. When you amass enough wealth, purchase a set of mithril breastplate (if it's not available, go with a masterwork chain shirt) and begin your training as a would be knight. I've always liked to think of the Ranger as a hybrid fighter/rogue. Take the feat Shield Expert (Which allows you to bash with a shield and retain its AC bonus) and purchase a Large Mithril Shield (or masterwork small steel shield, if mithril isn't available).

Later, when you're happy with your Open Lock skill bonus, drop Ranger for Fighter (and use the skill points for Disable Device and Search), and really step into your role as a knight. Use the feats to increase your frontline combat ability.

Remeber, above all, your character's background should really accentuate your strengths. The fact that you were a rogue in your youth should lend your character a cunning many knight errants lack. Go to third in Rogue before multiclassing, to get more Sneak Attack. That way, when you get Two Weapon Fighting and Shield Expert, you'll be able to deal sneak attack damage twice, while shelling out normal front-line-fighter damage.

If I were playing this character (and I might, it sounds really cool, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) I would use the build:

Rogue 3 / Ranger 3 / Fighter 4, then take PrC's allowed by your DM.

And again... great story!
JohnSnow
08-10-04, 11:43 PM Thanks Kingside_Bishop.

The character's background is a backstory that my DM and I came up with in concert. I provided a FEW details that I wanted and he fleshed it out in keeping with his world (which I didn't know a lot about, seeing as it's a homebrew). My tidbits are the character's parentage, his class, and the aspiration to be a knight, with some suggestions on the other pieces. The DM filled in the thieves' guild, the Windsword, the cruel thief mentor, and the knight mentor.

I definitely agree with you on the Ranger as a fighter/rogue hybrid. In fact, in my opinion, Robin Hood and Aragorn both coould be played as fighter/rogues instead of Rangers. Funny that.

For the record, I got relatively lucky on Gareth's attributes: specifically, he has STR 15 DEX 16 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA 14. So skill points (and surprisingly, hit points) haven't been a problem so far.
Kingside_Bishop
08-11-04, 12:23 AM Yeah, with those stats, you should have no problem multiclassing and keeping the important rogue skills high, even if you go into fighter.

SIde question: is your login of any relation to the character John Snow from the Song of Ice and Fire series (Clash of Kings, Game of Thrones, etc...). That's my single favorite fantasy series, ranking above even LotR.
JohnSnow
08-11-04, 02:50 PM Yes, absolutely, one hundred percent, my login is based on Jon Snow from Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire.

It's one of my absolute favorite series too. And I've based several conceptual D&D characters on Snow. He's one of my absolute favorite fantasy characters. Martin has not displaced Tolkien completely, but he's solidly on my "favorite fantasy author" list.

The only other contenders (besides the two R.R.'s) are Robert Jordan, Tad Williams, and J.V. Jones. David Eddings, Raymond Feist, and Terry Goodkind hold the second tier.
Tony Vargas
08-11-04, 04:29 PM One thing that will help is not to get too hung up on multi-classing as 'career changes.' Right now, you're doing a fair bit of fighting, if you take a level of fighter, you're not making a radical shift. Likewise, you've been sneaking through the woods and such, Ranger would not be a radical departure. You should feel pretty free in taking a level or two in any of those classes.

And, really, those first couple of levels are the easiest decisions. The hard part will come later, when you have two or three levels of each, and might want to take one of them above 10th to get at some juicier high-level abilies, or just to finally broaden your selection of knightly feats.

I'd say, since you've already gotten at least a little knightly training, you may be overdue for a fighter level. You could invest some skill points in ride, for instance, and pick up an apropiate feat, as well as finally having full martial weapon proficiency.
JohnSnow
08-11-04, 05:22 PM Tony, thanks for your insight. You were very helpful on the other thread as well. And I agree with you actually.

Gareth is going to be multiclassing to Rogue 2/Fighter 1 when he levels up. I already have 1 rank in Ride (purchased cross-class). Compared to waiting, I guess I wasted a skill point, but it fit the character concept.

I'd agree on the "career change," but my DM has said that the 1st Ranger level would merit some training (a couple of weeks, say) with the Rangers first. Since Gareth has been a knight's apprentice for a year, gotten into a lot of combats lately, and been sparring with another knight's apprentice in our "spare time," the fighter level doesn't mandate the same kind of "specialized training." If we had a Ranger in our party, it might be different (training could be assumed to have been taking place 'off-camera'), but we don't.

FYI, I think I'm gonna go with Two-Weapon Fighting and Point Blank Shot. I can opt for the archery style as Ranger which allows me to pick up Improved TWF with a general (or fighter) feat when it's useful, rather than waiting for Ranger 6. Since I'm not likely to ever wear more than a Chain Shirt (the higher armor check penalty from anything heavier would hurt my mobility skills too much), I'm not real worried about the armor restriction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnSnow 08-09-04, 05:47 PM	Okay, I tried this on the character optimization boards, and got some useful advice, but not a lot that I could use. So, I'll give you this character's life story (so far) and his goals, and then any advice is appreciated. First a little campaign background. The Realm of Olbian is a fantasy realm inspired by Arthurian Britain. The DM has set it up as a low-magic realm, where Vahdre (Dwarves) are the only non-humans which routinely interact with humans. Alfar (Elves) and Waldleuti (Gnomes) exist, but are much more otherworldly and rare (isolationist). The PCs start on the Island Duchy of Briz, the capital city (town really) of which is (not surprisingly) Briz. Gareth was born in the capitol of Briz. An orphan, he was taken in by the thieves' guild and became a semi-successful pickpocket and scout. His mentor was a particularly cruel rogue named Cormac Darkmoon, the guild's lieutenant, who regularly beat Gareth to, in essence, show him who was boss. Despite this, Gareth is basically good-hearted and longed for a better life. As a youngster, he would climb to where he could watch the Duke's knights at their practice and dream that someday, he might escape his wretched existence. Late in his teens, Gareth was particularly taken by Elyneth, the daughter of one of the duke's knights, but realized she could never be wooed by a simple thief. After a particularly cruel beating from Cormac, Gareth fled Briz, vowing to make something better of his life. Making his way north to a small farming town, Gareth was taken in by Sir Argoth, one of the Duke's knights, who had retired. Sir Argoth intended to teach the young man to be a knight (or at least instill in him some discipline). He was strict, but he was fair, and Gareth regards the old knight with genuine affection, the only "father" he has ever known. From Sir Argoth, Gareth heard the stories of the legendary "Gwaimegal" or "Windsword," a famous magical weapon. Gareth wishes to reclaim the Windsword and prove himself a true hero. But finding it may prove difficult. A mission for a wizard who might be able to point him in the right direction set Gareth on his adventuring career. Through a number of adventures, Gareth has proven to be the group's "Jack of all trades." He fights reasonably well, is the group's scout, and also handles locks and traps. So far (through level 2), his entire focus (mechanics-wise) has been as Rogue. However, for roleplaying reasons, I think it's sensible for Gareth to, at this point, begin his transition from simple rogue to "respectable adventurer." Options include Swashbuckler, a style of fighting considered somewhat dishonorable in Olbian, Fighter, and Ranger (we've encountered a Ranger whose skills impressed Gareth greatly). I don't want him to just go willy-nilly changing careers, but the group still NEEDS a rogue "skill-monkey." So the question is: how do I reconcile the needed skills with the character's personality and goals? Suggestions appreciated.
Kingside_Bishop 08-10-04, 10:40 PM	Great story... Taking levels in Ranger seem like a good idea to me. You get more skill points, so you can take ranks in Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock (even if they will be cross class) as long as you have a reasonably high intelligence. When you amass enough wealth, purchase a set of mithril breastplate (if it's not available, go with a masterwork chain shirt) and begin your training as a would be knight. I've always liked to think of the Ranger as a hybrid fighter/rogue. Take the feat Shield Expert (Which allows you to bash with a shield and retain its AC bonus) and purchase a Large Mithril Shield (or masterwork small steel shield, if mithril isn't available). Later, when you're happy with your Open Lock skill bonus, drop Ranger for Fighter (and use the skill points for Disable Device and Search), and really step into your role as a knight. Use the feats to increase your frontline combat ability. Remeber, above all, your character's background should really accentuate your strengths. The fact that you were a rogue in your youth should lend your character a cunning many knight errants lack. Go to third in Rogue before multiclassing, to get more Sneak Attack. That way, when you get Two Weapon Fighting and Shield Expert, you'll be able to deal sneak attack damage twice, while shelling out normal front-line-fighter damage. If I were playing this character (and I might, it sounds really cool, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) I would use the build: Rogue 3 / Ranger 3 / Fighter 4, then take PrC's allowed by your DM. And again... great story!
JohnSnow 08-10-04, 11:43 PM	Thanks Kingside_Bishop. The character's background is a backstory that my DM and I came up with in concert. I provided a FEW details that I wanted and he fleshed it out in keeping with his world (which I didn't know a lot about, seeing as it's a homebrew). My tidbits are the character's parentage, his class, and the aspiration to be a knight, with some suggestions on the other pieces. The DM filled in the thieves' guild, the Windsword, the cruel thief mentor, and the knight mentor. I definitely agree with you on the Ranger as a fighter/rogue hybrid. In fact, in my opinion, Robin Hood and Aragorn both coould be played as fighter/rogues instead of Rangers. Funny that. For the record, I got relatively lucky on Gareth's attributes: specifically, he has STR 15 DEX 16 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA 14. So skill points (and surprisingly, hit points) haven't been a problem so far.
Kingside_Bishop 08-11-04, 12:23 AM	Yeah, with those stats, you should have no problem multiclassing and keeping the important rogue skills high, even if you go into fighter. SIde question: is your login of any relation to the character John Snow from the Song of Ice and Fire series (Clash of Kings, Game of Thrones, etc...). That's my single favorite fantasy series, ranking above even LotR.
JohnSnow 08-11-04, 02:50 PM	Yes, absolutely, one hundred percent, my login is based on Jon Snow from Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. It's one of my absolute favorite series too. And I've based several conceptual D&D characters on Snow. He's one of my absolute favorite fantasy characters. Martin has not displaced Tolkien completely, but he's solidly on my "favorite fantasy author" list. The only other contenders (besides the two R.R.'s) are Robert Jordan, Tad Williams, and J.V. Jones. David Eddings, Raymond Feist, and Terry Goodkind hold the second tier.
Tony Vargas 08-11-04, 04:29 PM	One thing that will help is not to get too hung up on multi-classing as 'career changes.' Right now, you're doing a fair bit of fighting, if you take a level of fighter, you're not making a radical shift. Likewise, you've been sneaking through the woods and such, Ranger would not be a radical departure. You should feel pretty free in taking a level or two in any of those classes. And, really, those first couple of levels are the easiest decisions. The hard part will come later, when you have two or three levels of each, and might want to take one of them above 10th to get at some juicier high-level abilies, or just to finally broaden your selection of knightly feats. I'd say, since you've already gotten at least a little knightly training, you may be overdue for a fighter level. You could invest some skill points in ride, for instance, and pick up an apropiate feat, as well as finally having full martial weapon proficiency.
JohnSnow 08-11-04, 05:22 PM	Tony, thanks for your insight. You were very helpful on the other thread as well. And I agree with you actually. Gareth is going to be multiclassing to Rogue 2/Fighter 1 when he levels up. I already have 1 rank in Ride (purchased cross-class). Compared to waiting, I guess I wasted a skill point, but it fit the character concept. I'd agree on the "career change," but my DM has said that the 1st Ranger level would merit some training (a couple of weeks, say) with the Rangers first. Since Gareth has been a knight's apprentice for a year, gotten into a lot of combats lately, and been sparring with another knight's apprentice in our "spare time," the fighter level doesn't mandate the same kind of "specialized training." If we had a Ranger in our party, it might be different (training could be assumed to have been taking place 'off-camera'), but we don't. FYI, I think I'm gonna go with Two-Weapon Fighting and Point Blank Shot. I can opt for the archery style as Ranger which allows me to pick up Improved TWF with a general (or fighter) feat when it's useful, rather than waiting for Ranger 6. Since I'm not likely to ever wear more than a Chain Shirt (the higher armor check penalty from anything heavier would hurt my mobility skills too much), I'm not real worried about the armor restriction.