Here's an alignment conundrum for you [Archive] - Wizards Community

Here's an alignment conundrum for you [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheMightyMcClaw
02-26-05, 08:45 PM So in the campaign I'm running, I've introduced an organization called the Arm of Heaven. The Arm of Heaven is a group of assassin's in a major port town - they kill people for money, typically vast amounts of it. All this money they earn is devoted to charitable causes - taking in refugees, purchasing and emancipating slaves, caring for the sick, feeding the poor, and so on. The same people who kill without mercy in the dark also operate kitchens for the homeless and public clinics.
So here's a question: What alignment would this represent? It isn't one of those silly gags where "They only kill people who deserve to die." Many of their marks are bad men with enemies, but the Arm of Heaven doesn't judge these issues. They only execute the whims of powerful men in order to put their money to better use.
Chedders
02-26-05, 10:03 PM LE

Evil, cause they kill people (and assassins have to be Evil)

Lawful, cause they have morals (albeit pretty screwed up ones), and Lawful doesn't necessarily mean they follow the laws of the town, but they follow their own code (don't judge contracts, help the needy and poor of the world, etc.)
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger
02-27-05, 12:18 AM Well I have a question. Just what is the motivations of the orginization? And why choose such an evil way. After all the way it sounds, if they were sent to assassinate a well known noble who gave generously to the poor and created and supports many charitable orginizations, your people would go and kill that person without a second thought.

This is where it sounds very flawed to me using that example. Yea, killing evil people or people that deserve to die doesn't sound too bad, after all there is a PrC in the Book of Exalted deeds that does just that. But the way you presented it leaves me with the question of why?
psudodevil
02-27-05, 12:19 PM I think your order would probably be lawful neutral because they kill, but only to help those in need and they live by moral codes.
Quintara
02-27-05, 12:34 PM I'd say that they should be chaotic good. Even if assassins can't be good, your the DM, change it. These assassins, they go around killing people, but for good causes. The PHB says that "A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him, with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent." That kind of sounds lie your assassins. They make their own way (killers for hire) but have benevolent causes (charity ect.).
Silver_storm
02-27-05, 04:19 PM I'm with The Yellow Dart on the 'why'-issue. Assassins by night, do-gooders by day? Hm... Creativity, go!

A cunning assassin noticed one day that his conscience was getting in the way of his work. He could no longer kill in cold blood as he had done before. A close encounter with death had made him think about his own mortality, and with that, the mortality of other. Not wanting guilt intefering with his job, he decided to simply pay it off, and contributed a large sum to a temple.
Feeling great about his good deed, the assassin continued to donate a portion of each contract's profits to the temple, untill the temple found out where all this money was coming from. A huge moral debate lit up amongst the clergy, which eventually led to a seperation. The people that supported the assassin took the money he had already given him to found a new sort of temple, one where assassins and other evildoers could seek amendment by donating. Eventually, this led to an order of 'white assassins' known as The Arm of Heaven. Twisted as it may seem, it was instantly popular among both nobles and assassins, both feeling they could now do what had to be done without having their conscience nagging.

So, how's that for a backstory? I don't know if you already had one for it, but I just felt like making one. Do with it whatever you please. Now, for the alignment... I would say Neutral on the Good-Evil axis, at least for the orginisation as a whole. You will likely have a full scale of alignments present within the organisation itself. As for the Lawful-Chaotic axis, that depends if such a group is acceptable in your campaign. If many people would view it as unacceptable or at best unconventional, the organisation is Chaotic for ignoring what is socially acceptable. Else, it will probably score a Neutral on that point too.

Keep in mind that an organisation like this is likely to contain both the Lawful Evil assassin that wants peace of mind, and the Chaotic Good volunteer that doesn't kill much, but likes to get the money to the places it needs to go to. So (Chaotic) Neutral for the organisation, and the entire range of alignments for the people within it.
Ivarrius
02-27-05, 06:07 PM LN works wonders. You aren't concerned for the evil you commit as you do it for good reasons.

The evil and the good balance eachother out, and they follow their own code of morality. Depending on how the city itself runs, they may be considered chaotic by the public or the city officials, but they follow 'a' code of laws, making them lawful.
aleshandre
03-01-05, 03:40 PM The organization itself would be true neutral. As an organization it does good and evil without concern for legality or illegality of the acts that it performs. On the other hand, the organization would probably be made up of individuals with alignments that sweep the entire spectrum.
ChaosHammer
03-01-05, 07:44 PM The organization itself would be true neutral. As an organization it does good and evil without concern for legality or illegality of the acts that it performs. On the other hand, the organization would probably be made up of individuals with alignments that sweep the entire spectrum.

I agree. The orginization would be neutral. I personally think alignments are pointless, but that's just me.
aberrant80
03-02-05, 03:20 AM I agree. The orginization would be neutral. I personally think alignments are pointless, but that's just me.

Alignments aren't pointless. They're guidelines for general motivations. Given the arguments already presented, I think LN, LE, N, and CN are all valid alignments, depending on your setting backdrop and populace views. But I would definitely be against good. I can't think of a satisfactory explanation for Good if you kill somewhat indiscriminately. Even CG members might seem somewhat out of place. You're a person with a compassionate. Yes, you find the idea of supporting the homeless and donating to charity very acceptable. But the fact that your comrades are killing potentially good people to support their charities is contradictory; unless, of course, members don't really know where the money is coming from.
Twilly
03-02-05, 03:31 PM Don't mind alignments to much if it is not an religious organisation, anyone that is member of this organisation has his/her own motivations and alignment.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
03-02-05, 03:59 PM Either LN or LE.

The end NEVER justify the means.
Persephone Imytholin
03-03-05, 08:29 AM This organisation sounds like its favourite things are to bump off the elite, extract money from the rich, and provide for the poor. In this way, they act to equalise the divide between haves and have-nots, and they insulate the poor from the games of elite powerplay. If their work is indiscriminate, then it'll also tend toward enforcing balance in the town's power structure.

For every life taken, more lives are supported. Each contract draws from the hoards of the wealthy and injects it back into the town. For every hit on the vile and corrupt, there's another on the pious and upstanding - maybe even at the same time. Where chaos and mistrust are sowed amongst the elite, order springs up as the people can again live honestly. The Balance is served.

The Home Alignment Test Kit says True Neutral - by its original definition of actively seeking balance.
runestar
03-05-05, 11:32 PM The first question would be the motives behind the org's actions. Why are they helping the poor? Is it truely from the bottom of their black heart so just to soothe their conscience? Why do they kill the people they do? Is is coz they are trying to uphold justice or at the behest of someone else? What's their agenda. Only when we know their motives can we determine their alignment, so to speak. After all, not everyone who donates to charity is LG.
DracoRuler
03-06-05, 06:57 PM IMO chaotic good, because to me chaotic good always symbolized "the end justifies the means" mentality, and all that jazz...yes they're doing something evil, but for a good cause...

just my 2cp
DR
Vharuck
03-06-05, 07:07 PM LE because, though they have goals, they are willing to do some of the most deplorable acts to achieve them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMightyMcClaw 02-26-05, 08:45 PM	So in the campaign I'm running, I've introduced an organization called the Arm of Heaven. The Arm of Heaven is a group of assassin's in a major port town - they kill people for money, typically vast amounts of it. All this money they earn is devoted to charitable causes - taking in refugees, purchasing and emancipating slaves, caring for the sick, feeding the poor, and so on. The same people who kill without mercy in the dark also operate kitchens for the homeless and public clinics. So here's a question: What alignment would this represent? It isn't one of those silly gags where "They only kill people who deserve to die." Many of their marks are bad men with enemies, but the Arm of Heaven doesn't judge these issues. They only execute the whims of powerful men in order to put their money to better use.
Chedders 02-26-05, 10:03 PM	LE Evil, cause they kill people (and assassins have to be Evil) Lawful, cause they have morals (albeit pretty screwed up ones), and Lawful doesn't necessarily mean they follow the laws of the town, but they follow their own code (don't judge contracts, help the needy and poor of the world, etc.)
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger 02-27-05, 12:18 AM	Well I have a question. Just what is the motivations of the orginization? And why choose such an evil way. After all the way it sounds, if they were sent to assassinate a well known noble who gave generously to the poor and created and supports many charitable orginizations, your people would go and kill that person without a second thought. This is where it sounds very flawed to me using that example. Yea, killing evil people or people that deserve to die doesn't sound too bad, after all there is a PrC in the Book of Exalted deeds that does just that. But the way you presented it leaves me with the question of why?
psudodevil 02-27-05, 12:19 PM	I think your order would probably be lawful neutral because they kill, but only to help those in need and they live by moral codes.
Quintara 02-27-05, 12:34 PM	I'd say that they should be chaotic good. Even if assassins can't be good, your the DM, change it. These assassins, they go around killing people, but for good causes. The PHB says that "A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him, with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent." That kind of sounds lie your assassins. They make their own way (killers for hire) but have benevolent causes (charity ect.).
Silver_storm 02-27-05, 04:19 PM	I'm with The Yellow Dart on the 'why'-issue. Assassins by night, do-gooders by day? Hm... Creativity, go! A cunning assassin noticed one day that his conscience was getting in the way of his work. He could no longer kill in cold blood as he had done before. A close encounter with death had made him think about his own mortality, and with that, the mortality of other. Not wanting guilt intefering with his job, he decided to simply pay it off, and contributed a large sum to a temple. Feeling great about his good deed, the assassin continued to donate a portion of each contract's profits to the temple, untill the temple found out where all this money was coming from. A huge moral debate lit up amongst the clergy, which eventually led to a seperation. The people that supported the assassin took the money he had already given him to found a new sort of temple, one where assassins and other evildoers could seek amendment by donating. Eventually, this led to an order of 'white assassins' known as The Arm of Heaven. Twisted as it may seem, it was instantly popular among both nobles and assassins, both feeling they could now do what had to be done without having their conscience nagging. So, how's that for a backstory? I don't know if you already had one for it, but I just felt like making one. Do with it whatever you please. Now, for the alignment... I would say Neutral on the Good-Evil axis, at least for the orginisation as a whole. You will likely have a full scale of alignments present within the organisation itself. As for the Lawful-Chaotic axis, that depends if such a group is acceptable in your campaign. If many people would view it as unacceptable or at best unconventional, the organisation is Chaotic for ignoring what is socially acceptable. Else, it will probably score a Neutral on that point too. Keep in mind that an organisation like this is likely to contain both the Lawful Evil assassin that wants peace of mind, and the Chaotic Good volunteer that doesn't kill much, but likes to get the money to the places it needs to go to. So (Chaotic) Neutral for the organisation, and the entire range of alignments for the people within it.
Ivarrius 02-27-05, 06:07 PM	LN works wonders. You aren't concerned for the evil you commit as you do it for good reasons. The evil and the good balance eachother out, and they follow their own code of morality. Depending on how the city itself runs, they may be considered chaotic by the public or the city officials, but they follow 'a' code of laws, making them lawful.
aleshandre 03-01-05, 03:40 PM	The organization itself would be true neutral. As an organization it does good and evil without concern for legality or illegality of the acts that it performs. On the other hand, the organization would probably be made up of individuals with alignments that sweep the entire spectrum.
ChaosHammer 03-01-05, 07:44 PM	The organization itself would be true neutral. As an organization it does good and evil without concern for legality or illegality of the acts that it performs. On the other hand, the organization would probably be made up of individuals with alignments that sweep the entire spectrum. I agree. The orginization would be neutral. I personally think alignments are pointless, but that's just me.
aberrant80 03-02-05, 03:20 AM	I agree. The orginization would be neutral. I personally think alignments are pointless, but that's just me. Alignments aren't pointless. They're guidelines for general motivations. Given the arguments already presented, I think LN, LE, N, and CN are all valid alignments, depending on your setting backdrop and populace views. But I would definitely be against good. I can't think of a satisfactory explanation for Good if you kill somewhat indiscriminately. Even CG members might seem somewhat out of place. You're a person with a compassionate. Yes, you find the idea of supporting the homeless and donating to charity very acceptable. But the fact that your comrades are killing potentially good people to support their charities is contradictory; unless, of course, members don't really know where the money is coming from.
Twilly 03-02-05, 03:31 PM	Don't mind alignments to much if it is not an religious organisation, anyone that is member of this organisation has his/her own motivations and alignment.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 03-02-05, 03:59 PM	Either LN or LE. The end NEVER justify the means.
Persephone Imytholin 03-03-05, 08:29 AM	This organisation sounds like its favourite things are to bump off the elite, extract money from the rich, and provide for the poor. In this way, they act to equalise the divide between haves and have-nots, and they insulate the poor from the games of elite powerplay. If their work is indiscriminate, then it'll also tend toward enforcing balance in the town's power structure. For every life taken, more lives are supported. Each contract draws from the hoards of the wealthy and injects it back into the town. For every hit on the vile and corrupt, there's another on the pious and upstanding - maybe even at the same time. Where chaos and mistrust are sowed amongst the elite, order springs up as the people can again live honestly. The Balance is served. The Home Alignment Test Kit says True Neutral - by its original definition of actively seeking balance.
runestar 03-05-05, 11:32 PM	The first question would be the motives behind the org's actions. Why are they helping the poor? Is it truely from the bottom of their black heart so just to soothe their conscience? Why do they kill the people they do? Is is coz they are trying to uphold justice or at the behest of someone else? What's their agenda. Only when we know their motives can we determine their alignment, so to speak. After all, not everyone who donates to charity is LG.
DracoRuler 03-06-05, 06:57 PM	IMO chaotic good, because to me chaotic good always symbolized "the end justifies the means" mentality, and all that jazz...yes they're doing something evil, but for a good cause... just my 2cp DR
Vharuck 03-06-05, 07:07 PM	LE because, though they have goals, they are willing to do some of the most deplorable acts to achieve them.