How can a NE assassin become good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How can a NE assassin become good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maddox
12-12-03, 05:04 PM I have a charater who is a neutral evil charater i.e. an Aasimar assassin who worships Shar, but I need a hook so to speak to become good, some kind of dilemma or motivation of some sort. I'm stuck, I keep coming up with non original goody touché stuff. Please people help me.
VirgilCaine
12-12-03, 08:03 PM Aasimar who worships Shar?
A creature with some heritage from the Higher Planes and it is evil? An Evil ASSASSIN, no less, a member of a group that kills an innocent to gain membership.

Maybe you should have tried this with an amoral halfling thief or something, this is hard.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Perhaps he is captured and converted by a celestial.
Morka
12-12-03, 09:06 PM I don't see what's wrong with an evil aasimar, I often see good tieflings in these boards.

As for what made him becoming good, a suggest he got a contract, and this contract was beyond the little moral he got. Perhaps someone wanted him to kill a children, or an old man, or someone who previously save his life. Perhaps he was captured, and a priest of Lathander told him that his god will forgive him his sins if he atone. Perhaps he fell in love with a good aligned girl. Perhaps his mother was sick and before dying, asked him to stop doing evil things.
Illithidbix
12-12-03, 10:02 PM I would suggest that something that often seems to work is conversion by awe/example, as in the actions/personality of a virtuous person inspire an unmoral person. Perhaps this causes him to revaluate his own actions, motives and goals.

Perhaps the lover of one of his contracts scarified their self trying to defend the target, and the strength and courage demonstrated by them, despite being obviously outclassed in skill, aptitude and training (and hense being killed) impresses him considerably.

Perhaps the sheer force of personality of his target, who confronts him, refuses to show fear despite obvious danger to his life yet refuses to fight, perhaps questioning what purpose the Assassin has in life.

Perhaps he see’s the emotional effects of his target’s death on the community, and see how much people valued that one person’s life, and compares it with his own and finds it lacking purpose and meaning.

Or if you don't like that kind of approach, maybe have one of the member's of his organisation (or some one working for his client if he's freelance) betray him to a target who turns out to have a little more preperation that expected.
For example, maybe he is used as a test sent by the employer/client as part of some innitation of the target into some elite group (which you're character didn't know about), , maybe a nice twist would be it is another follower of Sharhense you're character barely escaped with his life, leading him to question the ideals he is following since he's now on the recieving end of someone with a similar philosophy.

Or maybe have some even more evil and bad-ass society try to anhiliate his employer or organisation he belongs to for some reason (fanatical anti-Shar idealogy is a good one).
LiXinjian
12-13-03, 08:01 PM He's got celestial blood running through his veins: the man's very own body itches for him to turn back to good.

Perhaps he gets to meet a friendly celestial (his father?) who, after an initially friendly meeting, suddenly turns out very disapointed in the man's evil deeds. He's not threatening the PC, he's simply shamed the man's glorious heritage is thus fouled. That could somewhat get to the assassin if he's at all concerned of what others think of him.

Perhaps he becomes bored of the old "show strength" game. Perhaps he realizes the company he keeps despises him. Perhaps he tires of it all. Finally, maybe he gets a second chance when a good NPC tries to convert him. The Book of Exalted Deeds has rules for redeeming evil creatures.

I'd add more, but I'm in a hurry right now.
Darnek Wyrnin
12-13-03, 09:16 PM you do know that you lose the assassin abilities if you go away from evil, right?
LiXinjian
12-14-03, 12:01 AM There's a prestige class in the book of exalted deeds called a Slayer of Domiel. It's got many of the assassin's powers, but for lawful good assassins.

Don't bother trying to justify the existence of a lawful good assassin. Lawful, okay. I guess that'd be the CIA. But good? Beats me. Apparently, the designers didn't know either, because the PrC description pretty much skips this part, too. ;)
MoogleEmpMog
12-14-03, 12:55 AM Originally posted by Darnek Wyrnin
you do know that you lose the assassin abilities if you go away from evil, right?

Wrong. Assassins need to be Evil to take the class because... um... Well, they just do. For some reason, taking out prominent figures clean and quick is less preferable than slaughtering hordes of probably neutral lackeys as a Fighter or even Paladin. :rolleyes:

Now, by the core (DMG, PHB, MM) rules, you not only don't lose Assassin abilities if you become Good, you can continue to advance in the class. By the rules in Complete Warrior, you can't advance, but you still don't lose the abilities you already had. There is no 'ex-Assassins' entry like there is for Paladins or even Barbarians, describing what you lose if you stop being the required alignment.

In any case, most DMs of my acquaintance will waive the Evil restriction entirely, and certainly wouldn't stip the (non-Evil-powered) special abilities of the class if an Assassin stopped being Evil later.
Darnek Wyrnin
12-14-03, 01:10 AM Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog
Wrong. Assassins need to be Evil to take the class because... um... Well, they just do. For some reason, taking out prominent figures clean and quick is less preferable than slaughtering hordes of probably neutral lackeys as a Fighter or even Paladin. :rolleyes:

Now, by the core (DMG, PHB, MM) rules, you not only don't lose Assassin abilities if you become Good, you can continue to advance in the class. By the rules in Complete Warrior, you can't advance, but you still don't lose the abilities you already had. There is no 'ex-Assassins' entry like there is for Paladins or even Barbarians, describing what you lose if you stop being the required alignment.

In any case, most DMs of my acquaintance will waive the Evil restriction entirely, and certainly wouldn't stip the (non-Evil-powered) special abilities of the class if an Assassin stopped being Evil later.

Don't have the 3.5 DMG here, but unless they changes the rules when it comes to Prestige classes in 3.5, you lose all abilities you get from a class, if you no longer meet the requirements to get in to that PrC! Since I have heard nothing of this, I guess it's still the same.
MoogleEmpMog
12-14-03, 01:14 AM Originally posted by Darnek Wyrnin
Don't have the 3.5 DMG here, but unless they changes the rules when it comes to Prestige classes in 3.5, you lose all abilities you get from a class, if you no longer meet the requirements to get in to that PrC! Since I have heard nothing of this, I guess it's still the same.

Changed in core 3.5, changed back in Complete Warrior, stupid for non-Divine classes, house-ruled in every game I've ever player or seen played to not apply to this sort of alignment restriction.

And, of course, up to the individual DM to decide.
Darnek Wyrnin
12-14-03, 01:35 AM Sounds like I need to get my hands on CW soon. Sounds like there a whole lot of new stuff there, judgeing from all the posts about it :)
Ahnehnois
12-15-03, 05:42 PM "Now that I'm not evil I forgot how to do that sneak attack thing. And I lost all my spells. And my built-up resistance to poison has mysteriously deserted me."

How ridiculous is that? That's saying that you lose all your assassin abilities for not being evil. I have no idea what the letter of the rule is, but what DM would actually back that up? Restricting further assassin advancement and changing relations with the assassin's guild would be more reasonable consequences for a good assassin.

As for why one would exist, perhaps he accidentially kills someone he actually cared about (not at all impossible, evil for an evil person). Might start second-guessing every assassination afterwards.

Certainly there are plently of pretty simple reasons for a change of heart. Sometimes when a person is surrounded by evil deeds something just clicks and he starts understanding his misdeeds. The usual next step would be to frantically overcompensate for his misdeeds (i. e. Angel), becoming radically good-aligned.
strange_person
12-15-03, 07:54 PM I'd houserule it like a Bard; all the abilities still work, but you can't advance any farther as an Assasin as long as you are of good alignment, and the proper uses of the best abilities (Death Attack especially, but also the arcane spells, since they remind you of the demonic forces you learned them from) are evil acts; applied anatomical knowledge is morally neutral, but killing people by stealth isn't.

After all, there's nothing wrong with a True Neutral practicing assasin, but he, she or it must have been evil at some previous point to have learned the trade, just as a once-prolific and promising bard could become Lawful and loose the creative spark, while remaining a competent musician.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maddox 12-12-03, 05:04 PM	I have a charater who is a neutral evil charater i.e. an Aasimar assassin who worships Shar, but I need a hook so to speak to become good, some kind of dilemma or motivation of some sort. I'm stuck, I keep coming up with non original goody touché stuff. Please people help me.
VirgilCaine 12-12-03, 08:03 PM	Aasimar who worships Shar? A creature with some heritage from the Higher Planes and it is evil? An Evil ASSASSIN, no less, a member of a group that kills an innocent to gain membership. Maybe you should have tried this with an amoral halfling thief or something, this is hard. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Perhaps he is captured and converted by a celestial.
Morka 12-12-03, 09:06 PM	I don't see what's wrong with an evil aasimar, I often see good tieflings in these boards. As for what made him becoming good, a suggest he got a contract, and this contract was beyond the little moral he got. Perhaps someone wanted him to kill a children, or an old man, or someone who previously save his life. Perhaps he was captured, and a priest of Lathander told him that his god will forgive him his sins if he atone. Perhaps he fell in love with a good aligned girl. Perhaps his mother was sick and before dying, asked him to stop doing evil things.
Illithidbix 12-12-03, 10:02 PM	I would suggest that something that often seems to work is conversion by awe/example, as in the actions/personality of a virtuous person inspire an unmoral person. Perhaps this causes him to revaluate his own actions, motives and goals. Perhaps the lover of one of his contracts scarified their self trying to defend the target, and the strength and courage demonstrated by them, despite being obviously outclassed in skill, aptitude and training (and hense being killed) impresses him considerably. Perhaps the sheer force of personality of his target, who confronts him, refuses to show fear despite obvious danger to his life yet refuses to fight, perhaps questioning what purpose the Assassin has in life. Perhaps he see’s the emotional effects of his target’s death on the community, and see how much people valued that one person’s life, and compares it with his own and finds it lacking purpose and meaning. Or if you don't like that kind of approach, maybe have one of the member's of his organisation (or some one working for his client if he's freelance) betray him to a target who turns out to have a little more preperation that expected. For example, maybe he is used as a test sent by the employer/client as part of some innitation of the target into some elite group (which you're character didn't know about), , maybe a nice twist would be it is another follower of Sharhense you're character barely escaped with his life, leading him to question the ideals he is following since he's now on the recieving end of someone with a similar philosophy. Or maybe have some even more evil and bad-ass society try to anhiliate his employer or organisation he belongs to for some reason (fanatical anti-Shar idealogy is a good one).
LiXinjian 12-13-03, 08:01 PM	He's got celestial blood running through his veins: the man's very own body itches for him to turn back to good. Perhaps he gets to meet a friendly celestial (his father?) who, after an initially friendly meeting, suddenly turns out very disapointed in the man's evil deeds. He's not threatening the PC, he's simply shamed the man's glorious heritage is thus fouled. That could somewhat get to the assassin if he's at all concerned of what others think of him. Perhaps he becomes bored of the old "show strength" game. Perhaps he realizes the company he keeps despises him. Perhaps he tires of it all. Finally, maybe he gets a second chance when a good NPC tries to convert him. The Book of Exalted Deeds has rules for redeeming evil creatures. I'd add more, but I'm in a hurry right now.
Darnek Wyrnin 12-13-03, 09:16 PM	you do know that you lose the assassin abilities if you go away from evil, right?
LiXinjian 12-14-03, 12:01 AM	There's a prestige class in the book of exalted deeds called a Slayer of Domiel. It's got many of the assassin's powers, but for lawful good assassins. Don't bother trying to justify the existence of a lawful good assassin. Lawful, okay. I guess that'd be the CIA. But good? Beats me. Apparently, the designers didn't know either, because the PrC description pretty much skips this part, too. ;)
MoogleEmpMog 12-14-03, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by Darnek Wyrnin you do know that you lose the assassin abilities if you go away from evil, right? Wrong. Assassins need to be Evil to take the class because... um... Well, they just do. For some reason, taking out prominent figures clean and quick is less preferable than slaughtering hordes of probably neutral lackeys as a Fighter or even Paladin. :rolleyes: Now, by the core (DMG, PHB, MM) rules, you not only don't lose Assassin abilities if you become Good, you can continue to advance in the class. By the rules in Complete Warrior, you can't advance, but you still don't lose the abilities you already had. There is no 'ex-Assassins' entry like there is for Paladins or even Barbarians, describing what you lose if you stop being the required alignment. In any case, most DMs of my acquaintance will waive the Evil restriction entirely, and certainly wouldn't stip the (non-Evil-powered) special abilities of the class if an Assassin stopped being Evil later.
Darnek Wyrnin 12-14-03, 01:10 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Wrong. Assassins need to be Evil to take the class because... um... Well, they just do. For some reason, taking out prominent figures clean and quick is less preferable than slaughtering hordes of probably neutral lackeys as a Fighter or even Paladin. :rolleyes: Now, by the core (DMG, PHB, MM) rules, you not only don't lose Assassin abilities if you become Good, you can continue to advance in the class. By the rules in Complete Warrior, you can't advance, but you still don't lose the abilities you already had. There is no 'ex-Assassins' entry like there is for Paladins or even Barbarians, describing what you lose if you stop being the required alignment. In any case, most DMs of my acquaintance will waive the Evil restriction entirely, and certainly wouldn't stip the (non-Evil-powered) special abilities of the class if an Assassin stopped being Evil later. Don't have the 3.5 DMG here, but unless they changes the rules when it comes to Prestige classes in 3.5, you lose all abilities you get from a class, if you no longer meet the requirements to get in to that PrC! Since I have heard nothing of this, I guess it's still the same.
MoogleEmpMog 12-14-03, 01:14 AM	Originally posted by Darnek Wyrnin Don't have the 3.5 DMG here, but unless they changes the rules when it comes to Prestige classes in 3.5, you lose all abilities you get from a class, if you no longer meet the requirements to get in to that PrC! Since I have heard nothing of this, I guess it's still the same. Changed in core 3.5, changed back in Complete Warrior, stupid for non-Divine classes, house-ruled in every game I've ever player or seen played to not apply to this sort of alignment restriction. And, of course, up to the individual DM to decide.
Darnek Wyrnin 12-14-03, 01:35 AM	Sounds like I need to get my hands on CW soon. Sounds like there a whole lot of new stuff there, judgeing from all the posts about it :)
Ahnehnois 12-15-03, 05:42 PM	"Now that I'm not evil I forgot how to do that sneak attack thing. And I lost all my spells. And my built-up resistance to poison has mysteriously deserted me." How ridiculous is that? That's saying that you lose all your assassin abilities for not being evil. I have no idea what the letter of the rule is, but what DM would actually back that up? Restricting further assassin advancement and changing relations with the assassin's guild would be more reasonable consequences for a good assassin. As for why one would exist, perhaps he accidentially kills someone he actually cared about (not at all impossible, evil for an evil person). Might start second-guessing every assassination afterwards. Certainly there are plently of pretty simple reasons for a change of heart. Sometimes when a person is surrounded by evil deeds something just clicks and he starts understanding his misdeeds. The usual next step would be to frantically overcompensate for his misdeeds (i. e. Angel), becoming radically good-aligned.
strange_person 12-15-03, 07:54 PM	I'd houserule it like a Bard; all the abilities still work, but you can't advance any farther as an Assasin as long as you are of good alignment, and the proper uses of the best abilities (Death Attack especially, but also the arcane spells, since they remind you of the demonic forces you learned them from) are evil acts; applied anatomical knowledge is morally neutral, but killing people by stealth isn't. After all, there's nothing wrong with a True Neutral practicing assasin, but he, she or it must have been evil at some previous point to have learned the trade, just as a once-prolific and promising bard could become Lawful and loose the creative spark, while remaining a competent musician.