How does A LG Paladin/Rogue Think? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How does A LG Paladin/Rogue Think? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Etsu_ElfRanger
12-28-04, 05:42 PM I am in the process of creating an Illumian Paladin/Rogue. Honestly, I would be interested in how I might be able to play this character's psychology, relating to his two seemingly different class choices.

I've decided to say that he started as a paladin, then decided that there was a visible need for more subltety and stealth in many of his tasks.

How can I expand on this? I don't entirely understand how to play a character like this, and would love some advice on how I might undertake this challenge.

To really be a bit more specific, I am really wondering, what sort of ideas would motivate a LG character such as this? I understand a bit of the Illumian mindset, but I can't really understand how to integrate that with the mindset of a paladin and a rogue.
Etsu_ElfRanger
12-28-04, 10:18 PM Come on people. I'd really like some help here.
Callahan
12-29-04, 12:56 AM Well it's hard because that character would be teetering on the edge of his alignment. However it can be done. The basic idea is that this person knows that in order to catch a thief you would need to be a thief, or at least know all of the tricks of one. The training he took as a rogue would be applied in knowing how the criminal functions and to allow him to function on the same level as a criminal (eg. Stealth).

In the end you have a person that hangs out in the shadier parts of town, drinks in pubs where ogres are bouncers, but he doesn't drink, doesn't break the law and uses his knowledge of scum and villainy for good.
Kintara
12-29-04, 02:08 AM The mindset of the Rogue doesn't need to have anything to do with the criminal. You can just as easily describe them as Scouts. Even their Sneak Attack ability is simply taking advantage of a vulnerability in an opponent's defenses. A Paladin/Rogue would be a great diplomat, too, which is one of the areas in which the "Rogue" class can excel.

If you want an angle, then perhaps your Paladin has become concerned about being precise and surgical in his approach to his mission. Rogue skills allow him to investigate a situation, assess it accurately, and only do precisely the amount of damage required to do the most good. Plus, it's not stealing if you're taking something back (i.e., for the church). ;)

I don't know anything about Illumians, though.
Etsu_ElfRanger
12-29-04, 10:37 AM Good point, Kintara.

That surgical precision is pretty much what Illumian are known for. They're very big on analyzing situations, understanding them before they just right in. Also, the most accepted idea of the rogue's flair for attention does fit.

To paraphrase from their personality in the Races of Destiny book,: If HOLD PERSON will work well enough, an Illumian will use FLESH TO STONE. I think that's fairly descriptive of flair, don't you?

The other thing that I think really fits is that the Illumians are big on the concept of having skills in alot of different areas. Someone front-line oriented would not be off base by talking some more back-line class levels, or vice-versa.

With their wonderful choice of sigils, it is not too far off to say that the Illumians are made to multiclass.

In one of the posts for just the optimization of this character, they suggested his big things to play up would be charisma. I would say that he would likely be kinda interesting to play as sort of the face of the group. His charisma would definitely help in many, many skills that both classes have.

I like your angle, Kintara. Though, that idea about the church might need alittle changing. See, the church for the Illumians is very young. They're pretty much a new race, so the entirety of their gods are Illumians who ascended. I think it would be more like returning stolen items that not only benefit his cabal (his home base/monastary, so to speak), but the whole of the race. That sound about right?
Kintara
12-29-04, 01:29 PM Sure.

That's interesting about their gods. I think the cool thing about such a pantheon is that they might be very "hands on," perhaps even personable with their divine agents. Maybe not Joan of Arcadia personable, but not as unattached from the world as many gods tend to be after countless eons of deityhood. That means they might take an interest in things that an older god might leave alone or ignore.

Anyway, the flair thing makes me want to make him more like James Bond, though I think Paladin of Freedom might fit better if you went that route.
Tweedledope
12-31-04, 01:46 AM A Paladin/Rogue thinks only one way...bipolar.
Skyrocket
12-31-04, 02:13 AM Personally, I think Paladin/Rogue works just fine. If a gang of bandits have the princess locked up in the tower a normal paladin is just going to kick the door in and start swing his sword.

A paladin/rogue however, will sneak in, get the princess out the back door before anyone notices and once she's safe go back and use move silently, hide sneak attack to take the badguys out one by one. Much less fuss and mess that way. :thumbsup:
skywyze
12-31-04, 03:50 AM There's a very good type like this in the Wheel of Time series - a thief catcher. He hangs around in sleazy bars and underground, where his help is needed the most. Not just in pleasant throne rooms and such. Like the hero he is.
Etsu_ElfRanger
12-31-04, 02:01 PM Anyway, the flair thing makes me want to make him more like James Bond, though I think Paladin of Freedom might fit better if you went that route.
The way I understood it explained in the book was that it was more of a means to show ability, kinda like a tourney would be for medieval knights. A chance to show your skills, even if it is alittle over the top. Just my thoughts, though.
ShadowyFox
01-01-05, 01:34 AM There's a very good type like this in the Wheel of Time series - a thief catcher. He hangs around in sleazy bars and underground, where his help is needed the most. Not just in pleasant throne rooms and such. Like the hero he is. That has a very unique ring to it. Considering the mindset I see this character as, he might just see that being perceptive, and training that perceptiveness, could be very useful. What better way to defeat your enemy than to know him better than he knows you?
pha3drus
01-01-05, 11:22 AM I don't know if you have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds but there's a brief part of being lawful good and a rogue in there. Not having the book with me I cannot quote it exactly, but I believe it's something along the lines of a lawful good rogue being as dependable as a paladin. I've often toyed with creating this class combo myself. My viewpoint for the class would be the destruction of evil whether it be in your face paladin style, or behind the scenes rogue style. obviously some of the various rogue skills would not be used as often except in specific situations. however its a very playable combination you just have to find the roleplay aspect you want it to have.
ShadowyFox
01-01-05, 03:46 PM My viewpoint for the class would be the destruction of evil whether it be in your face paladin style, or behind the scenes rogue style. As you said, definitely workable. That right there fits the general ideaology of the Illumian race. It says that they will often prefer to work behind the scenes and make changes that cannot directly be tied to them.

I'll definitely keep this one in mind.
Draco Spirit
01-03-05, 05:59 PM another thing to keep in mind is that rogue/paladin is very good at defeating other rogues, thanks to his rogue ablities and is also very versatile, these features can make a paladin much better at his job, if he sees himself as protector.
GnomFoo
01-03-05, 08:20 PM A paladin with rogue levels is still a paladin. His rogue training would be things like disable device, move silently, hide, diplomacy, gather information, tumble, search, spot, listen, decipher script(i think thats what it is called), and just general skills that wouldnt violate his law. Thigns like sleight of hand and bluff would most likely be avoided.

He would be the holy knight who doesnt mind the rougher side of a towns, and can do things with, or without being seen.

Just because a paladin has stealth training, doesnt make him any less of a paladin.
Callista
01-04-05, 04:28 PM One word to describe the Rogue/Paladin: Strategy.

Outside of battle, the Rogue/Paladin is a diplomat. People trust him because they know he's dependable and honest; people like him because he's good at tlalking to them. He's courteous and well-mannered; and he knows how to talk people into seeing things his way. He knows exactly how things work between people--whether it's the interpersonal dynamics in the thieves' guild or the king's court--and he can use the information to further his quest. If he plays things right, his diplomacy skills may allow him not to even have to fight--and not spilling blood is often a good thing: Why kill your enemies when you can convert them?

In battle, the Rogue/Paladin is a strategist. He uses many and varied tactics; he knows how to prepare the battlefield and how to put his opponents off guard before he strikes. As a Paladin, he'll often be the leader of a group; and because that's true, he can teach or direct the same ingenious strategies he himself uses to those he commands. Chances are, he can win with fifty people against five hundred using things like Disable Device and traps on the battlefield (simple pits do wonders). He knows what's going on around him; knows his enemy; knows his allies; and knows how to hit where it hurts. He will often wield small, light weapons, taking advantage of his surroundings and putting his opponent off guard.

Though this Paladin may not be conventional, he is firmly good and firmly honorable. His methods are more subtle than the average Paladin's; but when itcomes down to it, it doesn't matter whether you wear leather armor or full-plate; what matters is how well and honorably you serve your liege, your god, and the cause of Good.
ShadowyFox
01-05-05, 08:11 PM Thank you! Those last comment was almost exactly what I was looking for! :D
Skyrocket
01-07-05, 02:56 AM The big thing with a paladin is the code of conduct. Don't violate that and for the most part you're fine.

The smart paladin uses tactics that ensure victory. There's nothing evil about setting up a trap or an ambush. That's startagy and nothing more. Using stealth whenever possible is just common sense.

If you know what you're doing a paladin rogue could be quite scary. :smirk:
dalmagar
01-07-05, 12:03 PM I don't think being LG neccesarily invalidates "illeagal" activities. After all, most all societies have laws against murder, but that wouldn't stop LG Fighters/Palladins from killing enemies of their nations. They wouldn't have to rise up against their rulers because they execute criminals. Someone mentioned James Bond. It isn't against the law if you have a "License to Kill". So a LG Palladin could use all the skills of a Rouge, as long as it was properly sanctioned, and in accordance with the laws of his Church/State. I would think of a LG Paladin/Rouge as a kind of "Special Forces" member.
ShadowyFox
01-08-05, 10:25 AM Exactly. There doesn't need to be a very stiff code of conduct. It's not a codified set of laws. Just obeying the things set out for you. This definitely isn't your normal paladin.
Timespike
01-08-05, 11:13 PM There is nothing chaotic or evil about stealth, trap disarming, knowledge of anatomy (sneak attack), or quick reflexes (evasion). And if you're working with official sanction...

Modern police and such can make covert entry into places under the right circumstances. If a paladin plays by the rules of his order, he should be fine.

Also, check out the order of illumination in Complete Adventurer and its two associated prestige classes (shadowbane inquisitor and shadowbane stalker) for more inspiration. The dedicated inquisitor feat from there will probably also appeal; all of the above were designed for the combo you're thinking of.

Also, in the book of exalted deeds, the Slayer of Domiel (basically a paladin-like assassin) has to be LG.

Also to me, the "rogue" class also includes the following professions (in addition to the usual theif, assassin, et al.)

Policeman (LG or LN)
Spy (Any)
Scout (Any)
Bounty Hunter (LG, LN, or LE)
Acrobat (Any)
Tactical Warrior (Any)
Commando (Any nonchaotic)

...you can see where this is going.
Nuntius128
01-10-05, 01:49 AM Setting a trap's not so different from attacking an evil character with a sword. If you beat it, then you obvioudly had the upper hand, right? Just like, if a bandit sets off a trap that you set, then that means you had the upper hand. Being a Paladin is about vanquishing evil, according to your resources. If your resources don't involve evil acts, like abducting the bandit's daughter, for example, then you're probably ok.
Kintara
01-10-05, 03:16 AM Setting a trap's not so different from attacking an evil character with a sword. If you beat it, then you obvioudly had the upper hand, right? Just like, if a bandit sets off a trap that you set, then that means you had the upper hand. Being a Paladin is about vanquishing evil, according to your resources. If your resources don't involve evil acts, like abducting the bandit's daughter, for example, then you're probably ok.Well, traps need to be set with a lot of consideration about who or what might spring them, as they aren't under your direct control. But as long as you take reasonable precautions that the being that encounters the trap deserves to get hit, you should be alright. Alternatively, make the traps non-lethal and largely defensive.
ShadowyFox
01-10-05, 05:59 PM Oh yeah. That is definitely the thought. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Etsu_ElfRanger 12-28-04, 05:42 PM	I am in the process of creating an Illumian Paladin/Rogue. Honestly, I would be interested in how I might be able to play this character's psychology, relating to his two seemingly different class choices. I've decided to say that he started as a paladin, then decided that there was a visible need for more subltety and stealth in many of his tasks. How can I expand on this? I don't entirely understand how to play a character like this, and would love some advice on how I might undertake this challenge. To really be a bit more specific, I am really wondering, what sort of ideas would motivate a LG character such as this? I understand a bit of the Illumian mindset, but I can't really understand how to integrate that with the mindset of a paladin and a rogue.
Etsu_ElfRanger 12-28-04, 10:18 PM	Come on people. I'd really like some help here.
Callahan 12-29-04, 12:56 AM	Well it's hard because that character would be teetering on the edge of his alignment. However it can be done. The basic idea is that this person knows that in order to catch a thief you would need to be a thief, or at least know all of the tricks of one. The training he took as a rogue would be applied in knowing how the criminal functions and to allow him to function on the same level as a criminal (eg. Stealth). In the end you have a person that hangs out in the shadier parts of town, drinks in pubs where ogres are bouncers, but he doesn't drink, doesn't break the law and uses his knowledge of scum and villainy for good.
Kintara 12-29-04, 02:08 AM	The mindset of the Rogue doesn't need to have anything to do with the criminal. You can just as easily describe them as Scouts. Even their Sneak Attack ability is simply taking advantage of a vulnerability in an opponent's defenses. A Paladin/Rogue would be a great diplomat, too, which is one of the areas in which the "Rogue" class can excel. If you want an angle, then perhaps your Paladin has become concerned about being precise and surgical in his approach to his mission. Rogue skills allow him to investigate a situation, assess it accurately, and only do precisely the amount of damage required to do the most good. Plus, it's not stealing if you're taking something back (i.e., for the church). ;) I don't know anything about Illumians, though.
Etsu_ElfRanger 12-29-04, 10:37 AM	Good point, Kintara. That surgical precision is pretty much what Illumian are known for. They're very big on analyzing situations, understanding them before they just right in. Also, the most accepted idea of the rogue's flair for attention does fit. To paraphrase from their personality in the Races of Destiny book,: If HOLD PERSON will work well enough, an Illumian will use FLESH TO STONE. I think that's fairly descriptive of flair, don't you? The other thing that I think really fits is that the Illumians are big on the concept of having skills in alot of different areas. Someone front-line oriented would not be off base by talking some more back-line class levels, or vice-versa. With their wonderful choice of sigils, it is not too far off to say that the Illumians are made to multiclass. In one of the posts for just the optimization of this character, they suggested his big things to play up would be charisma. I would say that he would likely be kinda interesting to play as sort of the face of the group. His charisma would definitely help in many, many skills that both classes have. I like your angle, Kintara. Though, that idea about the church might need alittle changing. See, the church for the Illumians is very young. They're pretty much a new race, so the entirety of their gods are Illumians who ascended. I think it would be more like returning stolen items that not only benefit his cabal (his home base/monastary, so to speak), but the whole of the race. That sound about right?
Kintara 12-29-04, 01:29 PM	Sure. That's interesting about their gods. I think the cool thing about such a pantheon is that they might be very "hands on," perhaps even personable with their divine agents. Maybe not Joan of Arcadia personable, but not as unattached from the world as many gods tend to be after countless eons of deityhood. That means they might take an interest in things that an older god might leave alone or ignore. Anyway, the flair thing makes me want to make him more like James Bond, though I think Paladin of Freedom might fit better if you went that route.
Tweedledope 12-31-04, 01:46 AM	A Paladin/Rogue thinks only one way...bipolar.
Skyrocket 12-31-04, 02:13 AM	Personally, I think Paladin/Rogue works just fine. If a gang of bandits have the princess locked up in the tower a normal paladin is just going to kick the door in and start swing his sword. A paladin/rogue however, will sneak in, get the princess out the back door before anyone notices and once she's safe go back and use move silently, hide sneak attack to take the badguys out one by one. Much less fuss and mess that way. :thumbsup:
skywyze 12-31-04, 03:50 AM	There's a very good type like this in the Wheel of Time series - a thief catcher. He hangs around in sleazy bars and underground, where his help is needed the most. Not just in pleasant throne rooms and such. Like the hero he is.
Etsu_ElfRanger 12-31-04, 02:01 PM	Anyway, the flair thing makes me want to make him more like James Bond, though I think Paladin of Freedom might fit better if you went that route. The way I understood it explained in the book was that it was more of a means to show ability, kinda like a tourney would be for medieval knights. A chance to show your skills, even if it is alittle over the top. Just my thoughts, though.
ShadowyFox 01-01-05, 01:34 AM	There's a very good type like this in the Wheel of Time series - a thief catcher. He hangs around in sleazy bars and underground, where his help is needed the most. Not just in pleasant throne rooms and such. Like the hero he is. That has a very unique ring to it. Considering the mindset I see this character as, he might just see that being perceptive, and training that perceptiveness, could be very useful. What better way to defeat your enemy than to know him better than he knows you?
pha3drus 01-01-05, 11:22 AM	I don't know if you have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds but there's a brief part of being lawful good and a rogue in there. Not having the book with me I cannot quote it exactly, but I believe it's something along the lines of a lawful good rogue being as dependable as a paladin. I've often toyed with creating this class combo myself. My viewpoint for the class would be the destruction of evil whether it be in your face paladin style, or behind the scenes rogue style. obviously some of the various rogue skills would not be used as often except in specific situations. however its a very playable combination you just have to find the roleplay aspect you want it to have.
ShadowyFox 01-01-05, 03:46 PM	My viewpoint for the class would be the destruction of evil whether it be in your face paladin style, or behind the scenes rogue style. As you said, definitely workable. That right there fits the general ideaology of the Illumian race. It says that they will often prefer to work behind the scenes and make changes that cannot directly be tied to them. I'll definitely keep this one in mind.
Draco Spirit 01-03-05, 05:59 PM	another thing to keep in mind is that rogue/paladin is very good at defeating other rogues, thanks to his rogue ablities and is also very versatile, these features can make a paladin much better at his job, if he sees himself as protector.
GnomFoo 01-03-05, 08:20 PM	A paladin with rogue levels is still a paladin. His rogue training would be things like disable device, move silently, hide, diplomacy, gather information, tumble, search, spot, listen, decipher script(i think thats what it is called), and just general skills that wouldnt violate his law. Thigns like sleight of hand and bluff would most likely be avoided. He would be the holy knight who doesnt mind the rougher side of a towns, and can do things with, or without being seen. Just because a paladin has stealth training, doesnt make him any less of a paladin.
Callista 01-04-05, 04:28 PM	One word to describe the Rogue/Paladin: Strategy. Outside of battle, the Rogue/Paladin is a diplomat. People trust him because they know he's dependable and honest; people like him because he's good at tlalking to them. He's courteous and well-mannered; and he knows how to talk people into seeing things his way. He knows exactly how things work between people--whether it's the interpersonal dynamics in the thieves' guild or the king's court--and he can use the information to further his quest. If he plays things right, his diplomacy skills may allow him not to even have to fight--and not spilling blood is often a good thing: Why kill your enemies when you can convert them? In battle, the Rogue/Paladin is a strategist. He uses many and varied tactics; he knows how to prepare the battlefield and how to put his opponents off guard before he strikes. As a Paladin, he'll often be the leader of a group; and because that's true, he can teach or direct the same ingenious strategies he himself uses to those he commands. Chances are, he can win with fifty people against five hundred using things like Disable Device and traps on the battlefield (simple pits do wonders). He knows what's going on around him; knows his enemy; knows his allies; and knows how to hit where it hurts. He will often wield small, light weapons, taking advantage of his surroundings and putting his opponent off guard. Though this Paladin may not be conventional, he is firmly good and firmly honorable. His methods are more subtle than the average Paladin's; but when itcomes down to it, it doesn't matter whether you wear leather armor or full-plate; what matters is how well and honorably you serve your liege, your god, and the cause of Good.
ShadowyFox 01-05-05, 08:11 PM	Thank you! Those last comment was almost exactly what I was looking for! :D
Skyrocket 01-07-05, 02:56 AM	The big thing with a paladin is the code of conduct. Don't violate that and for the most part you're fine. The smart paladin uses tactics that ensure victory. There's nothing evil about setting up a trap or an ambush. That's startagy and nothing more. Using stealth whenever possible is just common sense. If you know what you're doing a paladin rogue could be quite scary. :smirk:
dalmagar 01-07-05, 12:03 PM	I don't think being LG neccesarily invalidates "illeagal" activities. After all, most all societies have laws against murder, but that wouldn't stop LG Fighters/Palladins from killing enemies of their nations. They wouldn't have to rise up against their rulers because they execute criminals. Someone mentioned James Bond. It isn't against the law if you have a "License to Kill". So a LG Palladin could use all the skills of a Rouge, as long as it was properly sanctioned, and in accordance with the laws of his Church/State. I would think of a LG Paladin/Rouge as a kind of "Special Forces" member.
ShadowyFox 01-08-05, 10:25 AM	Exactly. There doesn't need to be a very stiff code of conduct. It's not a codified set of laws. Just obeying the things set out for you. This definitely isn't your normal paladin.
Timespike 01-08-05, 11:13 PM	There is nothing chaotic or evil about stealth, trap disarming, knowledge of anatomy (sneak attack), or quick reflexes (evasion). And if you're working with official sanction... Modern police and such can make covert entry into places under the right circumstances. If a paladin plays by the rules of his order, he should be fine. Also, check out the order of illumination in Complete Adventurer and its two associated prestige classes (shadowbane inquisitor and shadowbane stalker) for more inspiration. The dedicated inquisitor feat from there will probably also appeal; all of the above were designed for the combo you're thinking of. Also, in the book of exalted deeds, the Slayer of Domiel (basically a paladin-like assassin) has to be LG. Also to me, the "rogue" class also includes the following professions (in addition to the usual theif, assassin, et al.) Policeman (LG or LN) Spy (Any) Scout (Any) Bounty Hunter (LG, LN, or LE) Acrobat (Any) Tactical Warrior (Any) Commando (Any nonchaotic) ...you can see where this is going.
Nuntius128 01-10-05, 01:49 AM	Setting a trap's not so different from attacking an evil character with a sword. If you beat it, then you obvioudly had the upper hand, right? Just like, if a bandit sets off a trap that you set, then that means you had the upper hand. Being a Paladin is about vanquishing evil, according to your resources. If your resources don't involve evil acts, like abducting the bandit's daughter, for example, then you're probably ok.
Kintara 01-10-05, 03:16 AM	Setting a trap's not so different from attacking an evil character with a sword. If you beat it, then you obvioudly had the upper hand, right? Just like, if a bandit sets off a trap that you set, then that means you had the upper hand. Being a Paladin is about vanquishing evil, according to your resources. If your resources don't involve evil acts, like abducting the bandit's daughter, for example, then you're probably ok.Well, traps need to be set with a lot of consideration about who or what might spring them, as they aren't under your direct control. But as long as you take reasonable precautions that the being that encounters the trap deserves to get hit, you should be alright. Alternatively, make the traps non-lethal and largely defensive.
ShadowyFox 01-10-05, 05:59 PM	Oh yeah. That is definitely the thought. :D