Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Need_A_Life 03-14-06, 09:43 AM	Well, if all goes according to my schem-- plan, I will be playing a Neutral Evil Outsider soon. Now, the party would be mostly chaotic neutral/good, meaning that if they see me sacrificing innocents they'll kill me in gruesome ways (being the 'meatshield' in a very literal way has previously been used). So far I have this goal; He wishes to create a new world order, ruled by immortals, his reasoning being that those who live for centuries better understand consequences and therefore are less likely to be clouded by emotion. In this society he would act for the best of the majority, though he would have no objection to the slaughter of a 1,000 peasants if it meant that 1,001 peasants survived because of it. He doesn't do it solely because he is immortal (though I might be), but because he has seen how power corrupts mortals and believes that a council of gods and powerful outsiders would always be capable of making the correct decision for the good of the People. I need to know of a way to play him in a way that will gain their trust (without intending to betray them, not that I wouldn't) and survive. Oh, and I have immunity to having my thoughts read or alignment detected, so I'm safe there.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-14-06, 03:29 PM	Have you seen the movie Serenity? I thought of the bad guy from that film when I read this, although I think I would classify him as more LE than NE. The idea behind him is that he does the dirty work that he believes is necessary to establish an utopian society. The government sends him on assasinations and the like, and does it all thinking its for the greater good. At one point he admits he doesnt like what he does, and even that he wont be able to ever actually see the utpoia hes working towards, because he doesnt belong in it "What I do is evil, I have no doubt of that. But it must be done." I dont know alot about playing evil characters because I prefer to be one of the good guys, but if you get a chance that may be worth watching, maybe you can mine it for some ideas.
Need_A_Life 03-14-06, 03:40 PM	Thank you, this is a great idea. At one point he admits he doesnt like what he does, and even that he wont be able to ever actually see the utpoia hes working towards, because he doesnt belong in it "What I do is evil, I have no doubt of that. But it must be done." This has great potential, I could probably even work alongside paladins with that attitude. I've got to see that movie now, expensive to go on these board, I tells ya! I prefer to be one of the good guys, but if you get a chance that may be worth watching, maybe you can mine it for some ideas. Well, Good is... well good. But Evil is a nice experience (In Game that is :shifty: ) to try once in a while. Besides, an evil person crusading against evil is a nice twist, especially when doing it for noble reasons.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-14-06, 03:46 PM	Playing evil against evil because you're hell-bent on revenge against your old master/cult/god that betrayed you is pretty fun too, though this guy doesn't seem like the sort. I may have to see Serenity sometime myself, sounds somewhat interesting.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-14-06, 03:48 PM	Heh, Ill have to try an evil campaign sometime. I like being a good guy, but I like having things to overcome. To me the things that are heroic are compassion, self sacrafice, and personal accountability. When a character has to overcome thier own character flaws, and can do it without compromising those things I think thats very heroic, and I want to be a hero lol I definatelly thought thee guy in Serenity was a very interesting character though, and seeing it I did think about playing that kind of evil. The idea of an evil person, who knows he or she is evil, but believes that the evil is necessary for whatever reason is certainly a very interesting concept. Best of luck with this character and keep us in the know about how its working out =0)
Need_A_Life 03-14-06, 03:52 PM	like being a good guy, but I like having things to overcome. To me the things that are heroic are compassion, self sacrafice, and personal accountability. When a character has to overcome thier own character flaws, and can do it without compromising those things I think thats very heroic, and I want to be a hero Who said that evil people can't have compassion, sacrifice (both self- and that of others) and hold themselves accountable for their mistakes? Best of luck with this character and keep us in the know about how its working out =0) I will...
WhrenKehrsyn 03-14-06, 04:04 PM	Thats why I like this evil character concept, it is almost heroic in a very sad and unfortunate kind of way. I see these types of characters as ones who could have been the good guys if only they would have been able to stop and really examine the whys of what theyre doing. Like I said, seeing that character in that movie was really one of the only times I considered playing an evil character. He exibited all the things Id always only associated with good characters. He even makes sure to offer the good guys a chance to surrender in every encounter they have with him, he sends them messages begging them to give up so he wont have to murder and hurt others to get to them. It struck me as very much a noble, but misguided, sort of heroic. Very tragic I think.
Dipteran_Legacy 03-14-06, 07:47 PM	ah, I love the blurred alignment "rules" of D&D. Whren's example from serenity is a good one, though, as she said, the guy's definately LE.(though at the end, I found myself more interested in where he was going than where the crew was going....). I'd also like to point out that neutral evil means selfish. you care about what you care about, and the rest be damned. (if you really wanted to push it, you could even say most of america is neutral evil, heartily patriotic in some ways, but looking down and not really caring about other countries....but that's another topic, and I dont want to start a flame war) being selfish doesnt always mean you only care about yourself. there is(realistically, but prickish DM's might feel you arent "evil enough, if you act this way) even room for you to come to really care about your friends, over the course of your adventures. and, while in general LE is better at having a "good" social face, you can stretch it to fit neutral evil too(again, due to the fairly poor reasoning and definitions of the alignments in general). buy people drinks in bars, have a good chat. but if you ever come around, ask the guy you bought for before to buy you one. say "hey, ya owe me, remember?" if you chatted him up well enough, he may even buy every time he sees you in the bar again. of course, you'd be chatting with him simply to work him for information, and not really caring one cent about any personal problems, etc he brings up, unless it somehow could benefit you to solve them. ultimately, good and evil can very easily work side-by-side. it seems like almost all adventuring groups nowadays are as concerned with the actual rewards as with actually doing good.(and in effect, I think much less people are actually playing "good" characters than they used to) applying the general philosophy of "kill monsters, get loot, save village" that D&D usually runs by, it should be easy for a chaotic good and lawful evil to work together. of course, there's a chance that the good PC will forgive a repentant monster, while the evil one would likely pretend to accept an apology, and then behead it when it draws near, weapon lowered. additionally, both would even be happy to save the town-the good PC because it's the right thing to do, the evil one, because the town feels indebted to him for doing it. there's a lot more to an evil pc than "hey, it'd be cool to kill all these townsfolk, especially if I can screw my 'friends' in the process!". you're definately on the right track, and hopefully some of this helps you somehow, though looking back its more of a general example of how good and evil can work together than how your char in specific would. with a more detailed backstory, I might be able to suggest more... lastly, dont be surprised if the rest of the party is sometimes apalled by your methods.(as they should be, if they're really RPing good characters) either lie, and say it was accidental, or simply try to paint things in your light : "well, if hadn't killed him, he surely would have betrayed us!", and such... good gaming, sounds like a neat premise to build on ;)
Pan_Ai_Khan 03-15-06, 08:22 AM	I've only played NE once - that character was eventually left to die by the rest of the party after catching the wrong end(s) of a corridor spear trap (run through from several different directions, no hope of escaping unaided, basically a Grimtooth Special). That Character was a self-serving, bad to the bone, boil babies kind of guy (that just happened to be a Necromancer to boot). NE is a kind of 'in your face' kind of evil - follows no laws, but isn't entirely random. LE follows the saying 'it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it, and I happen to do it well'. CE is basically a 'kill, maim, destroy - might makes right' attitude.
Need_A_Life 03-16-06, 09:31 AM	I'd also like to point out that neutral evil means selfish. you care about what you care about, and the rest be damned. Well, this guy is going to be "The ends justify the means," and he sure isn't going to be following a strict code of conduct, he'll kill, enslave, torch cities and destroy entire kingdoms if it means that his vision of this 'ideal' world will come true (and at the level of power we're playing, it might just come to that). while in general LE is better at having a "good" social face, you can stretch it to fit neutral evil too(again, due to the fairly poor reasoning and definitions of the alignments in general). buy people drinks in bars, have a good chat. but if you ever come around, ask the guy you bought for before to buy you one. say "hey, ya owe me, remember?" if you chatted him up well enough, he may even buy every time he sees you in the bar again. of course, you'd be chatting with him simply to work him for information, and not really caring one cent about any personal problems, etc he brings up, unless it somehow could benefit you to solve them. Why would I tell people 'ya owe me one?', if I did it, it would only be to further my own goals, and if I'm trying to get on someones good side, then that isn't the way. ultimately, good and evil can very easily work side-by-side. it seems like almost all adventuring groups nowadays are as concerned with the actual rewards as with actually doing good.(and in effect, I think much less people are actually playing "good" characters than they used to) Well, there is the fact that most groups are actively fighting evil, so putting on the evil persona will strike them as hard and they'll portray cartoon villains (who are evil for the sake of evil). you're definately on the right track, and hopefully some of this helps you somehow, though looking back its more of a general example of how good and evil can work together than how your char in specific would. with a more detailed backstory, I might be able to suggest more... Thing is, I am playing in a Danish group, which means that backgrounds are written in danish. Since it is multiple pages, I probably couldn't fit it into a single post here, but I'll give a summary NE is a kind of 'in your face' kind of evil - follows no laws, but isn't entirely random. I am sorry, but this one stuck out, Neutral Evil is more like: Makes the rules themselves and expects everyone else to be just as dishonorable. Background: Halfling grew up among goblins, but was sent with a ship to another continent [the one on which the campaign happens] to retrieve an artifact meant to give the clan great power, so that they would avoid destruction. Unfortunately, the ship was destroyed in the journey and Gazra (the character) was the sole survivor. He managed to find goblins and an orc and convinced them to help him collect the artifact, intending to bring them back with him to his old continent. Naturally there are casualities, and Gazra finds out that the attacks had been directed at him (though he gets only cryptic answers as to why), he ends up reaching the place where the artifact is supposed to be alone, but doesn't get far with it, as a demon appears before him and attacks him, eventually fleeing with the artifact, leaving Gazra for dead. Gazra reaches a town where he collapses on the street [he is using a shapechanging effect to appear to be a goblin, causing much confusion] and ends up in prison where he confesses to have tried to recover an artifact. Big mistake. He is tortured about everything he knows about it, and is near death multiple times before he manages to break himself loose and escape his captors. He meets one of his former allies, a cleric named Katz whom he had thought died and he explains what happened, they decide to retire. Gazra knows at this point that he isn't entirely Halfling, he has demonic blood in his veins [Wispling (planetouched Halfling); Fiend Folio] and watches how the ravages of time destroys his former comrade while leaving him untouched. As he is now alone, he spends time in solitude, developing a detailed plan on making a new world order [see first post], and knows that for it to work, he needs to seek out other immortals [enter campaign]. How's that?
Raven Dark 03-16-06, 11:37 AM	Below is the bio from my NE character. I thought maybe it would help provide some insite to you as an example of a heroic evil guy... Cadeus Harkon, NE Human Cleric 13/Heirophant 2 (Life & Death domains) Appearance: Cadeus is dark in both appearance and mood. With his long white hair, dark ruddy skin, chiseled features, and intense gaze, he has an air of power about him that few others can match. He would be considered handsome if only it weren’t for his frightening appearance. Clothing: Cadeus prefers black clothes of various kinds (the so-called Mourningwear worn by so many Cyran refugees). He disdains the typical robes common to spellcasters, realizing that such garments would only make him an obvious target to enemies. He also prefers clothing that allows him to easily hide material components and devices that may not be socially acceptable, such as humanoid finger bones, poison, and the like. Personality: Those who know him say Cadeus was touched by Xoriat in his grief. Despite his intermittent madness, he is very cunning and keenly aware of his surroundings. He has become a masochist of sorts, scarring his arms with sharp instruments in order to keep his mind clear from thoughts of his horrific past. It is only through the blurred redness of the physical pain that he can escape the tormenting images of his two beloved children, Lorai and Daltin. Like the Children of Winter sect, he believes that death is inevitable and that only the strong will survive the coming of the end of the current age. To this end, he seeks out extremely violent mercenary jobs, both to make himself stronger and to further study the nature of life and death. Region of Origin: Cadeus grew up in Eston, Cyre as a cleric of the Sovereign Host up until the Day of Mourning. Having lost everything on that tragic day, he began traveling the world taking on the most violent jobs he could find—utilizing new, darker powers. History/Background: Cadeus and his young brother, Gedrel Harkon, were visiting a sister church in Seaside, the City of Sails, when the dead gray mist appeared and engulfed everything. With hundreds of other terrified citizens, the Harkon brothers huddled on the nearby docks only feet from the mist’s deadly touch. Fearful for the wellbeing of his friends, Gedrel ventured into the strange mist on the first day; only to collapse and die the moment he set foot upon the land. After seeing his brother fall, Cadeus ran to him only to be tackled by several burly sailors. It took six men to hold Cadeus back as the mist enveloped Gedrel’s corpse. Survivors crazed with grief and desperate to see what happened to their kin, dared the mist on the second day…and were unharmed. The search of Seaside for survivors began. No bodies were found however, not even Cadeus’ younger brother. Worried for the rest of his family, Cadeus trekked across the blasted graveyard of his country to his hometown of Eston. He found the remains of his old home, but found not but a nightmare that would torment him everlasting. His two young children had hidden themselves in a closet in fear. Lorai and Daltin’s charred remains lay there still, the surrounding closet walls having protected them from the eldritch energies like so much parchment. The sight shattered Cadeus’ resolve and he had to be forcefully removed from the Mournlands. His wife, Erine, was never found. Like so many others that day, Cadeus’ life changed forever. He lost all faith in his church, fell into a deep depression, and was nearly killed by a unique magical disease which robbed him of his health (the disease is presumed to have originated from the Mournland). Mad with grief, Cadeus attempted to end his life by throwing himself bodily into the raging rocky river rapids of the Dagger River in Southern Breland. Fate, however, simply refused to end his misery. As his body lay broken upon the rocks, a pair of poachers, who had been hunting illegally nearby, pulled him from the river and carried him to the nearest city for treatment. In the coming months after his attempted suicide, all that was left for his mutilated body was pain, an endless blur of throbbing agony and heartache. In the end, it was in this pain that he found clarity. On the first anniversary of the Day of Mourning he chose a new spiritual path, one he believed would grant him powers over life and death—the power, he hoped, to bring his family back together again. Character Hook: You cannot kill a man who is already dead! I hope that helps.
Need_A_Life 03-20-06, 06:53 AM	Thank you for your help, I recently finished the end of the background which goes something like this In fact, I did survive. I lived with Katz for nearly six decades before she died due to the ravages of time. I, however, survived once again; time could not take me, I had learned the truth of my blood and tamed it, it would take me no longer. Gazra Relunhantis
Callista 03-20-06, 09:52 AM	Evil Outsider? What sort? Seems like it'd a really cool character. You're going to be careful about how you play him, obviously; and sooner or later you'll be found out... I read this one story about how an Evil PC went with the party until the end of the campaign; and then when the BBEG had been killed, she decided she was going to take his place (and power)... the last big enemy of the game was actually another PC. They fought; the Evil PC was taken down... killing two other PCs before she died. Talk about going out in a blaze of glory. The DM naturally has to work with you if you plan something like that. But if you can pull it off, it's pretty darn cool.
Need_A_Life 03-22-06, 03:19 AM	Evil Outsider? What sort? Wispling with Ritual of Alignment. It's basically a halfling with the outsider type and disguise self 1/day Seems like it'd a really cool character. You're going to be careful about how you play him, obviously; and sooner or later you'll be found out... I don't intend to be 'found out', I am working for a noble cause using whatever means it takes. They can't detect my alignment no matter what they do. If they smite evil, then I'll just soak up the damage, if they kill me, I'll come back to haunt them (literally). They fought; the Evil PC was taken down... killing two other PCs before she died. Talk about going out in a blaze of glory. Well, if they try to take me out; I'll simply maximize collateral damage, they'll have to sacrifice each others to accomplish their goals The DM naturally has to work with you if you plan something like that. But if you can pull it off, it's pretty darn cool. The only thing he'll need to allow me to is to take a 'host' since I intend to use the bizarre prestige class called Fiend of Possession (who can possess and control others). When I say 'maximize collateral damage' I mean: "Possess the cleric and cast the most powerful spells, which does one of two things A) Weaken the group to be taken out at later date or B) Defeat them and get them raised afterwhich I show disappointment with their unruly behavior"
stanleyx2002 03-25-06, 08:44 PM	I'm also playing a NE character as of about...3 weeks ago. It's a drow campaign, not the good go-to-the-surface-and-be-rebellious kind of course, but the normal killing-for-position/intrigue/backstabbing kind. It also seems i have a similar goal, there's a wizard in the party who wants to start his own House, of course after it is established my character will attempt to kill him and take control. Also, my character's sister who is in the party is looking to become a high priestess, maybe even Matron Mother. Once again, my guy is looking for power behind the throne, so he's easing his way in with her. If none of this happens, he is looking to bring males higher in society by overthrowing quite a few priestesses. While this may take the cooperation of some outside allies, he's got no problem with taking them out after the deed is done. What i'm getting at is...NE seems like doing what you need to do, and making sure you do it. at least that's what i'm gathering from myself and you guys.
Need_A_Life 04-01-06, 05:51 AM	Bad news. Gazra has been put on standby. My DM has a problem with the evil alignment, but I'm convinced that I can talk him into it, given time.
Tlazcotl 04-03-06, 02:50 AM	Well, if all goes according to my schem-- plan, I will be playing a Neutral Evil Outsider soon. Now, the party would be mostly chaotic neutral/good, meaning that if they see me sacrificing innocents they'll kill me in gruesome ways (being the 'meatshield' in a very literal way has previously been used). Neutral Evil is the most psychologically-disturbing alignment to play, IMO. (lol) Characters with this sort of moral outlook are evil for sheer love of being evil and doing evil things. They're the creepiest of the malevolent. If they aren't serving evil powers (gods, fiends, etc..), then they're generally out to make the world a much less pleasant place to live by whatever means are most efficient. Serial killers, rapists, torturers, genocidal maniacs, and necromancers all come to mind when I think of NE.
Echoes of Deception 04-03-06, 05:59 AM	Why thank you, Tlazcotl. I believe you would be absolutely right. I've been playing an NE drow for years now, and I've been slowly honing him into a more and more depraved ... thing. By now, he's barely even discernable as a drow. People who are neutral evil believe in the power of the self. And, usually, that power can be attained. They are self-centered, self-serving, morally bankrupt, callous, cold, low-down, deceiving, traitorous, greedy, disgusting, proud, wads of scum wrapped up in shiny, good-looking-by-comparison-to-their-own-souls flesh - even when as monstrous in appearance as a bloated, leprous emu with three heads and serious retardation. The worst part is, the strongly neutral evil ones revel and bathe their minds in this fact. Please allow me to elaborate by example. Disheveled and sobbing, the man stared down the monstrosity that stood unabashed in the cobblestone street before him and shouted in a voice wracked with grief, "My wife... my child... you! You took them away fro- f-from me..." he choked back his tears and the grip on his sword tightened, sweat wetting the leather of the grip, "Why... why would anyone, even someone as lowly as yourself... why would you do such a thing?!" The tip of the sword in his right hand struck the street beside his boot, as the pain of loss began to overwhelm him. His head hung low, he awaited his much-deserved answer. Glancing back, uncaring eyes the color bred of frost and crimson fell upon that pathetic human. His body turned more slowly, as if lethargic from a too-long night's rest. He acted slowly, being truly uninterested in the challenge against his power of arbitration, but lacking entertainment until now. Parting perfect lips, the fiend spoke in icy tones that felt no sympathy for the man's position, "Everyone needs a hobby." His mouth crept into a smirk as the misty and distorted face of the man's child floated between them, trapped forever in a profane mantle that protected him, even now. His eyes alit with mischief as he watched indignated fury inspire strength into the human's swordarm again. In a flash of disbelief and rage, he felt his left shoulder drop, and his swordpoint lift as he lunged toward the figure concealed in black silks, tears streaming down his face as he crossed the gap, screaming a the first half of a word in absolute hatred. His swordpoint struck something soft, and then slid forward as it tore further in and tired, he looked upon the mask of the murderous beast to see its eyes. From his arm, Echet looked up to see the face of the man who had just attacked him as he gripped his offender by the wrist. Triumphant satisfaction was washing away from the human's face as the drow's tired, unimpressed eyes met his own. Aghast, he realized his sword had been led between the drow's arm and chest, and that the catch-and-slide that had been so resemblant of running a man through, was only his sword shearing the silks the ebon-skinned drow wore. Horror was expression doomed to rest forever on his face, as he at last rejoined his wife and daughter. Sorry I got a little carried away there, but that does sort of explain one of the ways to play a neutral evil character. I hope it helps.
Need_A_Life 04-04-06, 10:14 AM	Well, his "way" would be to use a possession ability (acquired through Fiend of Possession) to make everyone pawns in his little game, which would be for the good of everyone. He'd use ANY means to make this new 'dynasty' come true. It might as well be communism, nazism, fascism, capitalism, it's a lifestyle he was intending to force upon everyone. If he's ever allowed into play.
Echoes of Deception 04-05-06, 03:39 AM	Yeah, dude. That seriously sounds everything like Lawful Evil.
Need_A_Life 04-05-06, 09:27 AM	So mock pretention of obeying the rules when in fact you are using magical compulsions to control everything is lawful? I thought that lawful evil alignment stated: He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion wheras the neutral evil alignment stated: She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble If making a mockery of the rules is "playing by the rules" then I've misunderstood something. Just my 2 cents.
Tlazcotl 04-08-06, 05:01 PM	I think that Echoes of Deception may have become a bit confused. Your roleplaying idea does sound like a megalomaniac, but not overly-lawful IMO. It's a good example of neutral evil if I ever saw one. Roleplaying alignments can be relative and tricky; they depend heavily on the restrictions that your DM and gaming group in general rolls with. The characters in my game are generally allowed a bit of freedom when law versus chaos is considered. I will reign them in if their lawful characters make a habit of breaking laws that they are well aware of, though. The evil v.s. good alignment axis is where I place a majority of importance. As for NE, just do whatever it takes to spread evil and enjoy it. If your character is power-hungry (as many evil characters tend to be) then don't submit totally to any one method of accomplishing things. Utilizing proven methods is great, but testing new strategies regularly will also keep your enemies off guard and often unprepared for you as you climb the blood-soaked ladder of success. Just don't ever let yourself submit to altruism, pity, mercy or love and you'll pretty much have it. -Tlaz
kelvinaw273 04-10-06, 04:53 AM	The idea is OK, in fact this guy justifies himself well. Evil characters CAN get on in good parties, you just have to reason it through. Evil is self-interested and out for their own gain before everyone elses. It could be argued that this means that evil characters will betray a good party for their own gain. However, this can only be done ONCE. Sticking with the good party means that you will always have a share of the loot, never have to watch your back, and always know who you are dealing with. Betraying these guys might end you up in a situation where YOU might be betrayed, so why do it? The first concern of a selfish character is staying alive.
Need_A_Life 04-10-06, 05:33 AM	So... Only one question. Had I written that I had a good-aligned (or neutral aligned) outsider intending to create a world order ruled by immortals, overthrowing all existing kingdoms/empires etc. for the better of the people would the replies have been different? Because this is a place where I absolutely hate alignment, the grey-zones where someone breaks the stereotype.
WhrenKehrsyn 04-10-06, 12:46 PM	I hate alignment in D&D too. Because there are no shades of grey in D&D, but there are in the real world. D&D very specifically defines what good and evil are, you can see that in this thread, whereas the definitions of those things are not so clear cut in the real world. People in this thread have said that evil is and must be selfish, not true. It is completely possible to do evil things without personal benefit in mind. You can be evil and still not mind sharing loot with your party members, you can be evil without killing innocents. For some reason theres a big trend towards the puppy kicking type of evil lately in D&D. In reality more of the worlds evil has been done in the name of divinity and human betterment than for personal gain. Sure when it comes to rapists, murders and all that it is for personal gain, but when you look at the larger evils in our history (Nazism, fascism, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the slaughter of indiginous peoples of several continents, the repression of people for religious and other reasons, etc) they were done for the 'betterment' of the human condition, not for personal gain. As my aunt used to say 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' That being said I dont think its the ideology of the person but rather thier actions that define them as good or evil. Regardless of what new world order the person intends to create or what he defines himself as, its how he goes about achieving his goal that makes him good or evil. Now, on the LNE axis. The neutral aligment is very hard to define in my opinion. Lawful is the following of rules and order. It doesnt mean you have to obey the law of whatever country youre in, it means that you live in an orderly and structured manner. You acknoledge there is an order to things and you need and/or admire structure and organization. Mobsters dont always follow the law, what they do is often illigal, but I would still call them LE because the way they do things is in fact lawful (Law by definition is order and structure, because we create rules to order and structure our social groups we call those rules 'laws'). Chaotic is more of an acting on whimsy. People of this alignment should respond to things instinctually, relying alot on intuition and whim rather than thinking things out, structured response is the realm of law, instinctual response is the realm of chaos. However because of this chaotic people will often act in a lawful manner. Now, that makes Neutral hard to define. Neutral represents an acknowledgement of law and chaos and either a conscious striking of balance between the two (something chaos will do on its own) or a conscious avoidance of both (a structured response and therefor lawful one). But people dont do this. When you make a decision you dont stop and think about whether its a lawful response or a chaotic one. Neutral is too similar to chaotic on this axis for my tastes. I also think alignment in general intrudes too much on the realm of the wisdom ability score, which is a representation of experience and street smarts. It should control how you respond to things, not an abstract and very hard to define alignment.
Narrator 04-10-06, 01:50 PM	If you are really, really in to this character get a hold of a copy of The Prince by Nicholo Machiavelli. There are many tactics and details (real life ones) about how to handle government and military forces once the concept goes large scale, as well as one on one deception. It is difficult reading, but The Prince takes the "whatever it takes" idea to a whole different level.... something like "the ends always justifies the means". I suspect that some of the information in there will give you an edge towards making the character's personality as realistic as possible in the minds of the other players and the DM. I reccommend lots of Bluff, because you will need to be a perpetual liar if the other players have their wits about them at all. Will your forced lies force your character in to questioning the honor of his own path? It would be impossible to hide from the party unless your character realizes that what he is doing is evil. If he doesn't even understand himself that he is evil, his plots will get uncovered more quickly, because the party may have their own views about what is the right thing to do and what isn't. His actions dictate his alignment, in my opinion, more than his attitude. The party may see it the same way......you thinking you are doing the right thing may not be sufficient to their characters...still evil. It is a really cool concept that brings up a lot of questions besides the idea of alignments in the game rules. If it were me playing this character, part of the fun would be the dramatic uncovering of the truth. Being found out some day, way into the future, would be fun. It would also all have to come to a head for me, and culminate into self persecution.....and huge amounts of guilt.
Need_A_Life 04-10-06, 02:19 PM	We play using a freeform bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/sense motive system, basically we've removed the skills (and anything that interacts with them is either a charisma check (feinting in combat is an example) or something to roleplay) so "lots of bluff" isn't applicable in this case. I don't think it ever would be, he isn't the "baby-eating, puppy-kicking, cannibalistic, sociopathic"-type, he's intending to create a new world order, one that actually has many similarities to modern democratic societies. Doesn't sound evil? The people leading this "dynasty" would be handpicked by him (and later the ones he had picked out), a dozen or so from each major alignment (devils, demons, yugoloths, angels, eladrins, guardinals, inevitables, elementals, dryads etc.) and they would vote for every decision, a thing that has several benefits: 1) There is less tendency to genocide, rebellious thoughts etc. when all opinions are heard and weighed. 2) A group of 108 (12 per alignment) would be unlikely to all have their judgements clouded by emotion. 3) Unlike kingdoms and empires, this society would be unlikely to be corrupted, as each corrupted person would be outweighed by another being. 4) When you live for 500 years you understand the consequences of your actions much deeper than any mortal could ever (technically elves cover this, but when they're 500 they're of venerable age). I don't like calling anything from real life "evil", nazism had its merits (and plenty of unforgivable flaws). I don't think you can apply the word "evil" to anything outside of stories (And as that guys signature said: "The first person who mentions Hitler in a discussion loses")
WhrenKehrsyn 04-10-06, 03:12 PM	I don't think it ever would be, he isn't the "baby-eating, puppy-kicking, cannibalistic, sociopathic"-type, he's intending to create a new world order, one that actually has many similarities to modern democratic societies. Doesn't sound evil? Heh, I think you misunderstood me, or maybe I wasnt very clear in what I was saying. The puppy kicking comment wasnt meant at your character, I meant that D&D in general has a trend towards that sort of thing when it discusses evil, look at things like the alignment descriptions and the BoVD. I was trying to point out that people dont have to be that kind of evil to be evil. I think your character is a good example of this. That comment was more directed towards the 'evil people are selfish and do what they want' mentality of many of the other posts in this thread. Like I said, I dont think intents make good or evil, but actions define it. Youre characters idea isnt of itself evil, but his execution of it may or may not make it be. I don't like calling anything from real life "evil", nazism had its merits (and plenty of unforgivable flaws). I don't think you can apply the word "evil" to anything outside of stories (And as that guys signature said: "The first person who mentions Hitler in a discussion loses") Good and evil are human created concepts, they dont exist outside of human mentality. This means that nothing is actually goor or evil, but we create these concepts and define them, and the way we define them means that things we do are one or the other, whether we like to call them that or not. But my point in listing some of those things was more to demonstrate that it doesnt have to have a personal gain. Things are often done for other reasons. I agree with the Hitler statement but only to a point. When its a legitamite analogy or comparison, or relevent to the subject material it is an acceptable subject. In this case were discussing evil, and as such real life evil is a relevant and reasonable discussion point.
Need_A_Life 04-10-06, 05:04 PM	Actually, my "baby-eating, puppy-kicking, cannibalistic, sociopathic-type" statement was for Narrator, who suggested that I had to be a perpetual liar, and I merely pointed out that I did not need to be a 'bad guy' to have an "Evil" sticker on my forehead. I agree with the Hitler statement but only to a point. When its a legitamite analogy or comparison, or relevent to the subject material it is an acceptable subject. In this case were discussing evil, and as such real life evil is a relevant and reasonable discussion point. So you would say that Hitler was evil? I would say that he was crazy (having read "Mein Kampf" for a history assignment) but thought he was helping people, I wouldn't call him evil for the sole reason that evil suggests that a person is incapable of good, as Hitler would not have gotten that far had he not been a decent person (in some cases anyway), he just became the worlds most remembered "Bad Guy", people don't mention Stalin or Saddam when they bring real life into D&D discussions, it's always Hitler. Anyway, while I agree with you that what he did was inexcusable (is that a word?), I wouldn't call him evil. Our world is just not black and white like that. P.S. Just realized how off topic I got. Sorry, everyone!
Deadlion 04-10-06, 05:09 PM	Just a thought on the whole "evil = selfish" stance. Perhaps "selfish" can apply to others than just the self? For example an evil character might want to improve the position in life of not only himself but also his family, caste, race, cult, sect, order, et cetera. I think it's perfectly reasonable to play an evil character who would give his life without a thought to save, say, his little sister, as long as he would be equally thoughtless in his sacrificing of expendable minions or torture of his enemies. As I said, just a thought.
Narrator 04-11-06, 01:49 PM	House rules. Got it. Those sound like fun house rules actually. It seems like for you personnally the ends justify the means. You don't believe that your "evil" character is going to be a 'bad guy'. He is just going to have an "evil" stamp. Is that because everyone else but you at the table will think he is evil? If they do not have the perception that he is evil, and you do not have the perception that he is evil, and he doesn't do anything that is "evil" or that a 'bad guy' would do, and his focus is a utopian society that sounds pretty neutral, doesn't that make him distinctly not evil? What gives him the stamp? Why isn't he LN? Is he just automatically evil because he is a type of outsider that is generally labeled as evil?
Need_A_Life 04-12-06, 02:47 PM	Well, to get the [Evil] subtype he had to take a ritual of alignment, burning a lot of cash for it (though in my background it was a bit more refined than that). The reason that he is evil is not his actions, it is his intent. He uses people indiscriminately (through possession, effectively causing a person to "blackout" and then proceed to use their abilities (skills, class abilities etc.) to accomplish his goals). Lets just look at it, as if I had given no information up to this point: - This person intends to overthrow all existing governments, whether its monarchies, democracies, tribal culture, or anarchic in nature. - This person intends for humans, elves, gnomes (etc.) to have no say whatsoever in government, instead giving that power to outsiders (even demons and devils). - This person is not above using his powers of possession to destroy powerful empires to more easily assimilate them into his society. - This person, while intending to make a democratic society, will seek to corrupt mortals; while he will not do it before, once he has a position of power he can and will bargain for peoples souls (he will use this 'currency' to expand his dynasty beyond the planar borders). - This person is so vastly more intelligent than a human that he will see how making all humans into Elans will solve problems (no need to eat, no more reproduction, therefore eventually the human race will be destroyed and a more 'worthy' race can take its place) Lets say that a person rebelled against all modern governments, played them against each others and had them cause mass destruction against each others, then revealing a way to stop it all and having the masses follow him. This person now has power over the worlds countries and refuses to make democratic elections as "it clearly didn't work before, better that I do it" would you say "He's right," or "Son of a b**ch! Viva la resistance!"? P.S. In the above example there are so many things about it that would never work, don't point them out, I see them. P.P.S. I didn't mentioning the soulbargaining before? Well, I did say he was an evil outsider whose goal was to seize power of the material plane, just described what comes with that this time. P.P.P.S. He won't be seen as a bad guy until he sets his plan into the works. My group would see him as chaotic (based on his tendency to simply dominate people instead of arguing with them), and I can convince people of things very easily when I talk to them face-to-face. Tongue of the devil, ya know...