Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Book5 09-13-06, 08:46 PM	This has been bugging me, and I have time today. The long and the short of it? Paladins are too good for you. You see it allot, paladin this paladin that, paladins are a strange class. Even the bard's restriction is based on a recordable value. An entry on the character sheet, but paladins are restricted in their very actions. Something weird is going on here. Unlike a chaotic alignment, or any alignment for that matter - its an evil action that is in question here. Furthermore they are not allowed to knowingly associate with evil people. The action of working with an evil person is sufficient to be borderline behavior. Sounds like some sorta parole or something ;) But herein lies the secret of having fun with a paladin. You have to play with them. You cannot play a paladin the way allot of people play their characters. Basically - you can't play yourself. You have close your eyes and play a character that is a little bit blind. Tragic really. Every paladin is a holy man in and of himself. Gods do not designate these cracky super soldiers. Their power comes from a faith in themselves. The secret to playing a paladin is not check every single person you ever meet for evil. That simple. Just play stupid. Don't take sense motive! Goodness! You don't want your character to know what he is doing! Unless you playing with a super hero team of world savers (boooooring) you have to play a paladin a little dingy. Makes sense though.. a paladin is so full of himself that he spontaneously generates positive energy. As I just said, you can play a keen and resolute (elite array) paladin in a do gooders game wherein the plot revolves around properly smiting some dark deity or another. Holy men, golden hearted rouges, and a hero of legendary arrogance. Great story, been there done that. I have also played a paladin in the midst of a mire of villainy. I wrote lawful stupid on the character sheet because LG was implied by class, and everyone else was either N, L, or E. The story revolved around money, and his story revolved around being tricked into doing things. How was he to know that the Marquee was not really selling elvish children to a orcish restaurant chain? This was a setting where a good half the population of the city was evil, all but three of the city nobles were evil. It would have been obscene for me to have the guy go on a serial killer rampage, instead he defended the good from evil. He connected good people with other good people, and he tried his best to sway those with out evil in their hearts toward the side of good. The two (of four) other player's characters that he "associated" with were neutral greedy. The other two were back scenes. Rarely seen by my character. Off feeding orphans during important events as he often was between scenes. One time I got into a fight that lasted the entire game session, purely as a distraction for the thieves. The man was evil and the lady was pure of heart I could easily see. "My Friends" got a few drinks in him and he decided to go defend her honor. A mighty man was he indeed, and it took no less then half the guards on duty to restrain him. We cut back and forth in two round bursts. It was pretty cool. There was allot of neat timing, and irony. The real secret? I made the choice to violate the restrictions of conduct - four times. Once to work with the wizard. Once to kill a child (it was evil, but it was still a child). And... twice to steal. How fun is that? Well I said "I am violating his code of conduct because.." each time. I decided that the action was beyond his code, but was still something that the person inside the honor would be too weak to resist. You know your having fun with a paladin when you say to one of your fellow players "My paladin is too good to speak to you, he walks away." and everyone giggles. Admittedly this means your GM has to spin some situations a little more carefully, but that's how you play with a paladin.. and have fun.
aleshandre 09-13-06, 11:56 PM	This to me is the epitome of how to play a hypocrate paladin. You can have fun playing a paladin without violating your code of conduct. How often do paladins associate with someone of the opposite sex...in other than the role of a protector? Well, I have 2 paladins (in 2 different games) who are interested romanticaly in female characters. A fallen angel and a thief. Yeah that's right. The beauty of it is that my paladins aren't the type that are full of their own righteousness. In fact, they are the least full of themselves of any of the other PCs in the games. Here's the secret to truely having fun with a paladin; Play the paladin like you would act if you actually had a higher calling from a real living god. What would you do? Just because you have a higher calling from God doesn't mean that you have no choice in your actions, but it does mean that you need to find ways to have fun that don't involve violating your code of conduct. So, do you have to slaughter villians to be a good paladin? No, but you do need to avoid spending your free time with them as much as possible. So have a sense of humor. If someone plays a joke on you, even if the person is evil, don't just kill them. Laugh it off or better yet make another joke at your own expense. If a person tries to kill you, then defend yourself. If a person tries to kill an innocent, then defend the innocent even if your life may be required to protect them. Don't take jobs from people you know to be evil, but if you discover that the high cleric of your faith is actually a servant of an evil god, then you should generally try to avoid direct confrontation until you have enough support and evidence to take them down permanently. Paladins really are a peculiar breed and playing a paladin isn't for everyone (the first GM I played D&D with said I was the first person he ever met who played a paladin properly). Generally, if you're violating your paladin's code of conduct, you shouldn't play a paladin. If you can have fun playing a paladin without violating his code of conduct, then you're on the right track and welcome to the ranks of the true paladins.
Callista 09-14-06, 03:12 AM	You shouldn't play a paladin with the intention to violate his code of conduct... but you shouldn't refuse to do so when the character or the situation demands it. You've got a paladin. Okay; but you haven't got a perfect character: Paladins aren't perfect, any more than Joe Fighter is. Let's say your particular paladin has the typical paladin problem: Pride. And let's say he ends up in a situation that makes him look bad. Does he lie to get out of it? Depending on just how bad his pride problem is, he just might. What that says for his personality, his future as a paladin, and his relationship to his order and the party... that's up to you, the DM, and the other players. The situation isn't always perfect, either. Sometimes it looks like the only choices you can make will end up with you looking for an atonement spell. And if your paladin character isn't smart enough to come up with a "third choice" that isn't evil, then he might have to (by inaction or action) break his paladin's oath. Or maybe things are just happening so fast, and you know your character would be confused or overwhelmed, and make a bad decision... So what now? Is losing your class powers so horrible, when you know you did it because you're being true to your character? That's always the danger in playing a paladin: You're just going to come up against situations where your character would lose his powers; and you've got to deal with them when they come. It's a weakness, just like the fact that a wizard isn't going to feel too good if his familiar takes a Fireball in the face. Okay: So. You're playing a paladin. You end up violating your vow. Your character is still the same character as before; so how does he deal with it? Most paladins will feel horrible about what they did unwisely, or couldn't help doing, and will immediately try to get back in their deity's good graces. Even if your paladin couldn't see any option that wasn't evil, that doesn't mean that s/he isn't guilty and horrified over the choice that had to be made. And that means an Atonement spell, perhaps an atonement quest, and probably some sacrifice made to show contrition. Going through that process is neither a sign of your failure as a player or your DM's being "too hard" on you; it's simply a part of playing a Paladin (and I pity the DM whose eyes don't light up at the sight of plot hooks the second the Paladin mentions that Atonement spell). There are a minority of paladins--those with fatal flaws--who, after violating their paladin's oath, will actually feel freed of restrictions, or angry at their deity for deserting them. If yours is such a one... well, that's what the Blackguard class is for, isn't it?
Book5 10-04-06, 10:28 PM	You shouldn't play a paladin with the intention to violate his code of conduct... but you shouldn't refuse to do so when the character or the situation demands it. Wrong, and wrong for these reasons. A: There is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to play a paladin. Your classical paladin game involves all good characters (maybe an edgy lawful nuetral or something for flavor) and a quest of grand and worthy stature. This game is basically final fantasy, and is a romping good time - full of bloody orc mutilations, desecrating the walking dead, and generally acting like your entitled to walk around killing anyone that stands in your way.. 'cause some god told you to ;) B: Any DM worth his doritos will try and get a Paladin to violate the oaths. Why not? Whats the fun of adding a restriction to a character like "you can't associate with evil people" unless there is some interplay there. If the oath is not challenged it looses all meaning. C: You mistake my example - perhaps its my manner of play. My PC in the above example - NEVER KNEW - that his "buddies" were members of the thieves guild. The one time - when he worked with the evil wizard... the evil wizard was doing something good for a change! Thanks to the influence of the eternal do-gooder. The royalty was evil!! Its a thing I like to do in a game. I was playing a paladin in a thieves guild game... right now I am playing an elf in a game that is all humans. Once I played a half dragon in a game that was focused on eradicating dragons... Whats happening here, is that I know how to play an exception. My elf is a total rarity - and I play it up, he does not reveal his presence (because elves are rare) and I generally make the humans in the party feel like having an elf in the party is something out of legend.. not out of course. The half dragon.. hated his dragonblood. He was "the half blood turncoat" of some infamy! - Trust me, my Paladin participated in no hypocrasy, nay! He was steadfast and true - whenin his moments of failing.. he went directly to his holy cardinal and atoned. Thats how your supposed to play a paladin.
kilmore 10-05-06, 05:09 PM	One idea i've been wanting to try for paladin i got from the Shadowbane Inquisitor PRC. Basicaly the end justifies the means. eg- if you can stop the all powerful evil, it's ok if some innocence die in the process. I see this type of paladin being like a whitecloak from the Wheel of Time, with a sort of "I am right, if you disagree you are wrong and should be punnished" mentality.
Solnath 10-05-06, 06:51 PM	Our party's paladin has a nasty dilemma concerning the deal-with-no-evils-vow: His left hand is evil. If you've seen Evil Dead 2, you know what I mean, minus the chainsaw. He has it under control of sorts with three magical seals which are, of course, breaking. Otherwise, he's human: he got a girl to come with us by accidentally breaking into her house while she was bathing a rolling a natural 20 while using diplomacy on her father. He's a polite gentleman who loses his temper occasionally, but knows how to cut some slack with the rest of the party. Refuses loot, but takes everything he can get if it's willingly given. It might not sound like the most fun way to play, but as we are on a religious mission, he is often challenged to self-contemplation and he's a really deep character thanks to that. I thought I had a point here, sorry. But at least your party doesn't have a blackguard... -Soly
aleshandre 10-05-06, 08:25 PM	B: Any DM worth his doritos will try and get a Paladin to violate the oaths. Why not? Whats the fun of adding a restriction to a character like "you can't associate with evil people" unless there is some interplay there. If the oath is not challenged it looses all meaning. Whats happening here, is that I know how to play an exception. My elf is a total rarity - and I play it up, he does not reveal his presence (because elves are rare) and I generally make the humans in the party feel like having an elf in the party is something out of legend.. not out of course. Trust me, my Paladin participated in no hypocrasy, nay! He was steadfast and true - whenin his moments of failing.. he went directly to his holy cardinal and atoned.[/indent] Thats how your supposed to play a paladin. Herein lies the rub; When your character is faced with a challenge to his character, he has only one real option. He MUST act in the most upright manner possible. While I agree that a GM should challenge a paladin's code of conduct, I feel that it should rarely if ever be a choice be a choice between two evils. Simply put, a Paladin lives so that such choices are not very likely to happen. If a Paladin works with evil people, he will inevitably be faced with choosing between evil and greater evil; thus he avoids working with evil people. When facing an evil person who gives him a choice between letting one of his party die and letting other innocents die, he should choose neither and instead try to stop both deaths. Only then can he stand and say that he chose the right path. He may not succeed in the attempt and may even die by making that attempt...indeed all may die because of it, but it is still the right choice. Ronald Regan said it best, "We do not negotiate with terrorists". If your paladin has moments of failing more often than once every few months of game time, then he has great need to reexamine his attitude toward his code of conduct. Atonement should be a means to be redeemed from a rare occurance, not a way to avoid suffering the consequences of the rules. Think of the rules regarding atonement and violations of the code of conduct as wearing a parachute in a biplane. It's there just incase the plane goes down, not so you can jump out and make it to the ground just because it's more convenient to get down faster than to actually land the plane. Remember it takes a lot of work to repack a chute properly. So it is with atonement. The paladin should see it as a means to be restored to the right path, not as a tool. It should never be treated like a sword or shield. It should be treated as a temple or a sacred object, reserved for great need instead of tossing it around like a few coins.
imake13 10-17-06, 06:04 PM	play him like one of the blues brothers... "on a mission from god" but still smokes, drinks and runs from the police.
theotherdraxen 10-17-06, 11:21 PM	I found this in journeyman777's sig. So, why is this (the paladin) so difficult to integrate into gaming groups? Simple. We've stopped playing heroes. Most Characters (and in fact, most gamers) are motivated by other rewards. Fame, Fortune, and Fantasy. We desire glory, gold, and land, which we then kindly share with others, as our claim to holiness. We tithed the necessary 10%. We risked our neck at the expense of knowledge, victory, or what have you. Now, check out my new ARMOR! How heroic, don't you think? The Paladin is out of place, not because of his conflicting and difficult code, but because he is a hero in a game of mercenaries. Enough said.
Bozidar 10-17-06, 11:37 PM	Paladin is the leader of our group, and we came upon a quandry today. We are in the very upper layer of the underdark, trying to squash a dark elf incursion causing problems in the area (lvl 12/13 campaign). We enter a cave of worked stone, and are ambushed by a part of 10-20 drow. I don't know how many they were, they died fast...except one of them. This one stablized, or had die hard feat -- not sure which. Bottom line is that he was unconcious, and that's where the delima started. Me, CG Sun Elf wizard -- kill her swiftly. Thog, CN Goliath Fighter -- kill her even more swiftly. Eq, unsure alignment, moon elf i think, mystic theurge -- if it were up to me she'd already be dead Oni, Paladin -- not so fast...that's a helpless foe and killing it would be murder. Does that make sense to ANYONE?
aleshandre 10-18-06, 07:26 PM	It makes perfect sense to me. The paladin does not delight in bloodshed, but understands that at times it is needed. He will kill when necessary, but otherwise will not. Evil can be overcome by either slaying the wicked or by converting them to holiness.
Aufenshauft 10-19-06, 02:14 PM	Killing is a messy thing that good does not relish. All it does is end the choices a being makes. Now, it has the huge advantage of expediancy and preventing the being from doing more harm. That is why it is a favored tactic of adventurers- it can't hurt you or do things when dead. A Paladin thinks beyond the immediate. What about this drow? If you kill them, they are doomed to the evil afterlife, which is not neccessarily a pleasant thing even by evil's standards. The being may not have had a chance in life to really make a full decision. Maybe they were acting evil because that is the only thing they knew, or because they had to choose evil to survive which can be understood if that is what everyone else did. Killing them removes the choice to be good or evil from them forever Not killing someone gives them a choice. If they choose evil, then they must be stopped before they cause it, since good is the target of evil. But giving them the opportunity to choose good is respecting their right to exist and actually choose. Paladins cannot be played by a lot of people, because they can't see things from this perspective. That's fine. But don't try to turn Paladins into something else just because you can. I'm more of a fan of Paladins as a prestige class for this reason- less people will try to mess with the concept if it is a special thing that only a few grow into rather than being presented with them 'right out of the box'.
Stormbrand 10-19-06, 05:41 PM	Paladin is the leader of our group, and we came upon a quandry today. We are in the very upper layer of the underdark, trying to squash a dark elf incursion causing problems in the area (lvl 12/13 campaign). We enter a cave of worked stone, and are ambushed by a part of 10-20 drow. I don't know how many they were, they died fast...except one of them. This one stablized, or had die hard feat -- not sure which. Bottom line is that he was unconcious, and that's where the delima started. Me, CG Sun Elf wizard -- kill her swiftly. Thog, CN Goliath Fighter -- kill her even more swiftly. Eq, unsure alignment, moon elf i think, mystic theurge -- if it were up to me she'd already be dead Oni, Paladin -- not so fast...that's a helpless foe and killing it would be murder. Does that make sense to ANYONE? Makes perfect sense. The drow is no longer dangerous, so you have no right to kill it. If it is going to be dangerous upon waking up then killing it is acceptable but that drow is now in your hands and not those of the dark priestesses - that drow was entitled to a life and a choice that it was never given in home society. Perhaps through the paladin's influence, the drow could become someone of great virtue. By taking the drow prisoner you could gain information that could be used to help squash the incursion and in the process of using the drow's aid demonstrate that cruelty is not required for strength. Seriously though, how do YOU justify killing the drow?
Horny_Ork 10-27-06, 04:12 AM	Many interesting thoughts in this thread! :) Nice! I always kind of play my Paladins (3 so far) along a line of tending more to the ideal of good or lawful - with lawful not meaning you uphold law but you desire a clear and most of all JUST order. So my Ilmater paladin is more benevolent, hearty and forgiveable, while my Helm Paladin is less concerned with goodness but with strict and just judgement. In the above case, my Ilmater Paladin would have had second thoughts about killing the drow, the Helm instead would have seen death as the Drow's just way of repenting. In any case, D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game with a clear good/evil dichotomy - which makes it a lot easier for you. It's not about being 100% sure what you would do in a real world setting, but a lot more about following the game's alignment system. So punish evil, defend good (and just smash the fvcking drow!). Have fun! And don't play Paladins like their a bunch of flower-loving sissies who need to see their shrink every second day or they would become deeply depressed at the world.
Mr. VanderMeer 10-27-06, 07:50 AM	Makes perfect sense. The drow is no longer dangerous, so you have no right to kill it. If it is going to be dangerous upon waking up then killing it is acceptable but that drow is now in your hands and not those of the dark priestesses - that drow was entitled to a life and a choice that it was never given in home society. Perhaps through the paladin's influence, the drow could become someone of great virtue. By taking the drow prisoner you could gain information that could be used to help squash the incursion and in the process of using the drow's aid demonstrate that cruelty is not required for strength. Seriously though, how do YOU justify killing the drow? You are right, but the big problem is that something like this happens all the time. Enemies fall unconscious almost every session. What do you do? let them all live, take them along and try to redeem them? Once you've got a large assortment of evil people and creatures tagging along on your adventure it gets to be pretty dangerous. What then? Stop, turn around back to the village to imprison the enemy? You'll keep walking to and fro. Leave the unconscious enemies behind? They'll keep coming back to kill you. So while what you say is correct, from a gameplay point of view it is a pace-killer. What's the solution? I'm not sure. As a DM I give all generic enemies etc a smaller chance to stop bleeding and I let them be dead at -3 instead of -10. (and horde monsters are dead at -1 in my campaign) Only 'special' characters, like heroes and BBEGS have more chance of surviving. I know it's not according to the rules, but I don't want my players to spend all their time worrying about every enemy that manages to survive by a thread.
Horny_Ork 10-27-06, 09:10 AM	As a DM I give all generic enemies etc a smaller chance to stop bleeding and I let them be dead at -3 instead of -10. (and horde monsters are dead at -1 in my campaign) I just realized I do the same.
Stormbrand 10-28-06, 02:06 PM	You are right, but the big problem is that something like this happens all the time. Enemies fall unconscious almost every session. What do you do? let them all live, take them along and try to redeem them? Once you've got a large assortment of evil people and creatures tagging along on your adventure it gets to be pretty dangerous. What then? Stop, turn around back to the village to imprison the enemy? You'll keep walking to and fro. Leave the unconscious enemies behind? They'll keep coming back to kill you. So while what you say is correct, from a gameplay point of view it is a pace-killer. What's the solution? I'm not sure. As a DM I give all generic enemies etc a smaller chance to stop bleeding and I let them be dead at -3 instead of -10. (and horde monsters are dead at -1 in my campaign) Only 'special' characters, like heroes and BBEGS have more chance of surviving. I know it's not according to the rules, but I don't want my players to spend all their time worrying about every enemy that manages to survive by a thread. Oh yes. In a situation like this, my paladin would only capture the drow if she was the leader or thought their information would help. My paladin has no problem finishing a downed foe. He just does it neatly.
Aufenshauft 10-30-06, 09:44 AM	The straight and narrow is not lust a one-lane trip to heaven. Paladins may have varying views on how one should act. A Paladin of holy vengeance who spends his life fighting against hordes of evil creatures is going to not think a second of downing an orc or Drow who has a weapon. A Paladin who has spent his life in a city and defending the poor and acting as a 'good cop' wouldn't be surprised or draw weapons immediately. After all, he knows that some demihumans survive in the city and, while not good, they don't endanger the city in general. Each Paladin would react differently to the situation of a down enemy. And they should. The first may take a prisoner for information and if they decide to change their ways, fine. The second would try to be peaceful if possible, while definitely giving the aura that the city is not to be messed with, and it's citizens are protected by tough police and militia. Don't think for a second that Paladins have to act in any one manner to be a Paladin. Think about specific individuals and how they can uphold such levels of virtue, then we can talk about what is and is not acceptable. IMO, Paladin should really be a DMG prestige class for this reason. Making it a base d20 class is just not giving it enough of the 'experienced players only' class description.
theotherdraxen 11-04-06, 12:02 AM	I don't think it needs to be made into a PrC. I know plenty of people that can play Paladins and function within a group...but some groups demand perfect cohesion. Take this situation: if one honorable character can't join in a battle thanks to his code, most players will abandon him, frustrated with his ethics. In the games that I play, this is considered excellent RPing, and while it makes things more difficult, it also adds versimilitude. After all, who hasn't been in that scenario, where you won't do what you're friends are doing because of your conscience? If you want to just kick butt (and there is nothing wrong with that), the paladin is probably not a good choice, but he's not all that powerful anyway (or so I've been told). If you want to play an honorable and holy warrior, with a dedication to justice (essentially the paragon hero), then Paladin is the way to go.
CoyoteUK 11-04-06, 10:22 AM	Paladins are a doddle to play....they just revolve around a particular set of values based on the idea that society should always progress, "correcting" (in their view) the world and that the power so gained should be used for the benefit (added comfort and security) of all; and that safety nets should be made for those too weak to look afterthemselves (in order to help them, if possible, to start garnering those sharable beneits as well). It essentially "socialist" in nature (no napalm attacks please) but backed up by understanding the need to be a warrior in defence of such a society when occasion rises. Think of it as the idealised version of modern western "compassionate" society. Unfortunately too much is heaped on paladins making them virtually unplayable, but this tends to come from folks who just take the words a tad too literally.:)
theotherdraxen 11-04-06, 10:24 AM	Unfortunately too much is heaped on paladins making them virtually unplayable, but this tends to come from folks who just take the words a tad too literally.:) QTF Although the other problem is players that aren't out to do the right thing, but out just to earn cash and gain power.
aleshandre 11-05-06, 03:46 PM	The biggest problem that people have playing a good (reads interesting, balanced and accurate) paladin is that they don't understand what it means to act in a way that leaves all question of whether it's wrong or right up to a strict adherance to certain strictures. The paladin is much like a kite. Without wind (opposition) or the string (restrictions) he/she can never rise to the heights expected. To play a paladin like a paladin instead of just another "interesting fighter type" you must treat his/her code as more than just a set of suggestions. It MUST be treated as a law. We all know that different D&D gods have different focuses and that their paladins may not even agree with how to interact with others. Some may not even get along, because one is bound to administer justice first and foremost, while the other is bound to administer mercy first, one may be dedicated to destroying all evil creatures because evil can never be tolerated, while the other may be required to give the opportunity (where possible) for the creature to change. This does not, however; change the fact that the paladin must adhere to the code. If you want to play a true paladin, the first thing you need to do is decide, "How would I act if I was an emmisary from my god and was expected to protect those unable to protect themselves." From there, you need to lay out a set of laws that you would have to follow to be worthy of the gifts that your god gives you to carry out your task as his/her emmisary. Treat this as though it is real worldin this aspect. Assume that you are your character and that the god he/she worships is a living god that can and does grant the abilities. What would be expected of you? What are the guidlines that every member of your faith is expected to fill? Then set your personal guidlines higher than that by a good margin. As an example, let's say that you have been given instruction not to fly your jet in the trees. You set your lower boundry as not lower than 1000 feet above the trees. By doing this, you create a higher requirement that fills the intent of the basic expectation, then exceeds it.
TheAnthroDM 11-06-06, 03:25 AM	QTF ? Quoted Truth For?
theotherdraxen 11-06-06, 11:05 AM	? Quoted Truth For? Exactly. I find that using AcronymFinder is a good way to dig through the internet slang (IMC, WTF, OMG, TPK, ect.) Anyway, one of the biggest misconceptions that get in the way of playing a paladin is the extreme to which they are played. Paladins are not exalted. In fact, the most popular definition of exalted is: "Exalted people make paladins look like shifty crack dealers", or something like that. Paladins can make mistakes. True, paladins can't torture or steal, but frankly, if that's why you play D&D, paladins won't fit, but neither does anyone with a genuine Lawful Good alignment. If you play D&D to be a hero (rather than a mercenary or villian), then paladins are fine. If all you want is to beat up the next bad guy and get the treasure, and you are without ethics, then paladins don't work. I play D&D to role-play a hero. I don't play with evil or selfish players, because if you're evil or selfish, then you're on the enemy team:fight!:.
Mathijs 11-09-06, 11:11 AM	Personally i think the paladin is the easiest class to play RP wise. Because of the Lawfull aligment of Paladins alls you have to do is say what's good in terms of law or feeling. Lawfull Good are against Theft but won't beat u to pulp if you are poor and had to steal so he can feed his children. A paladin will take the things he stole and buy the person some food instead that's paladin just be lovey dovey. with other lawfull aligments that's different ofc. true lawfull will do everything by the law. so the man who stole the food will go to jail at your hand. it's not for you to deside. Lawfull evil char's make there own rules or the rules of and evil diety or boss. just remeber that being lawfull has everything to do with rules
Melil13 11-09-06, 11:29 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10611417#post10611417 The higher they are the more likely they are to fall ... and they fall hard
aleshandre 11-11-06, 09:21 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10611417#post10611417 The higher they are the more likely they are to fall ... and they fall hard Which is one reason that paladins are not supposed to work with or associate with evil people or creatures. Seriously, any paladin played in a group that the player knows has evil characters is run by either a fool or someone who doesn't understand how paladins should be played...wait, is there a difference?
OneWinged4ngel 11-14-06, 12:49 AM	This has been bugging me, and I have time today. The long and the short of it? Paladins are too good for you. You see it allot, paladin this paladin that, paladins are a strange class. Even the bard's restriction is based on a recordable value. An entry on the character sheet, but paladins are restricted in their very actions. Something weird is going on here. Unlike a chaotic alignment, or any alignment for that matter - its an evil action that is in question here. Furthermore they are not allowed to knowingly associate with evil people. The action of working with an evil person is sufficient to be borderline behavior. Sounds like some sorta parole or something ;) But herein lies the secret of having fun with a paladin. You have to play with them. You cannot play a paladin the way allot of people play their characters. Basically - you can't play yourself. You have close your eyes and play a character that is a little bit blind. Tragic really. Every paladin is a holy man in and of himself. Gods do not designate these cracky super soldiers. Their power comes from a faith in themselves. The secret to playing a paladin is not check every single person you ever meet for evil. That simple. Just play stupid. Don't take sense motive! Goodness! You don't want your character to know what he is doing! Unless you playing with a super hero team of world savers (boooooring) you have to play a paladin a little dingy. Makes sense though.. a paladin is so full of himself that he spontaneously generates positive energy. As I just said, you can play a keen and resolute (elite array) paladin in a do gooders game wherein the plot revolves around properly smiting some dark deity or another. Holy men, golden hearted rouges, and a hero of legendary arrogance. Great story, been there done that. I have also played a paladin in the midst of a mire of villainy. I wrote lawful stupid on the character sheet because LG was implied by class, and everyone else was either N, L, or E. The story revolved around money, and his story revolved around being tricked into doing things. How was he to know that the Marquee was not really selling elvish children to a orcish restaurant chain? This was a setting where a good half the population of the city was evil, all but three of the city nobles were evil. It would have been obscene for me to have the guy go on a serial killer rampage, instead he defended the good from evil. He connected good people with other good people, and he tried his best to sway those with out evil in their hearts toward the side of good. The two (of four) other player's characters that he "associated" with were neutral greedy. The other two were back scenes. Rarely seen by my character. Off feeding orphans during important events as he often was between scenes. One time I got into a fight that lasted the entire game session, purely as a distraction for the thieves. The man was evil and the lady was pure of heart I could easily see. "My Friends" got a few drinks in him and he decided to go defend her honor. A mighty man was he indeed, and it took no less then half the guards on duty to restrain him. We cut back and forth in two round bursts. It was pretty cool. There was allot of neat timing, and irony. The real secret? I made the choice to violate the restrictions of conduct - four times. Once to work with the wizard. Once to kill a child (it was evil, but it was still a child). And... twice to steal. How fun is that? Well I said "I am violating his code of conduct because.." each time. I decided that the action was beyond his code, but was still something that the person inside the honor would be too weak to resist. You know your having fun with a paladin when you say to one of your fellow players "My paladin is too good to speak to you, he walks away." and everyone giggles. Admittedly this means your GM has to spin some situations a little more carefully, but that's how you play with a paladin.. and have fun. Wow. You sound like a terrible and immature RPer who has no idea how to play a paladin... and likely a limited ability to play much of any concept decently. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to put it much more lightly than that. I've seen a lot of games in a lot of different styles since I primarily play online. I've never had issues playing a paladin... nor have I seen any *good* roleplayer encounter such issues. Anyways, here's a bit of advice on the paladin's code for those who do have problems (copied from another post of mine): A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise. There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for! Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it. Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character.
DesecrationAngel 11-16-06, 12:03 AM	Okay, I think the best idea to look at here, is history/literature/mythology. Paladin-like characters are not common, nor are they easy, nor are they ambiguous. Putting PALADIN lvl 1 on your character sheet implies that you are a character not out to get away with what you can and still keep your divine gifts, nor does it mean that you are playing a pansy. A paladin is a hallowed knight. Knights kill for the sake of a greater cause. They tread through fire, they slog their swords in ankle-deep oceans of blood if need be, or they might be content to burp a baby or reason with a madman to calm him if that is the required task to let righteousness prevail. The cool thing about a paladin is that they have to retain their righteous, kind, and benevolent motives for everything they do regardless of what demon urinated in their wheaties this week. A code of conduct is a code of conduct, not an amendable constitution to be litigated by player-lawyers. However, it drives me up a wall when things are assumed about a paladin that are not actually a part of the code of conduct. A paladin can gamble, drink, make love, vent his frustration, and other such borderline issues, if done in moderation and in a proper setting. PALADINS AREN'T PERKY OR CHEERY... They probably have the most grim, scolding, disdaining attitude of all classes, because they are constantly shoved into a world whose dishonor and wickedness makes them sick. Paladins oftentimes don't -like you- and don't -pretend- to like you. In short, a paladin is a bad mo fo, who is not supposed to be emo or naive, nor is he supposed to be as crooked as a New Orleans politician.
aleshandre 11-16-06, 07:55 AM	The only thing I disagree with you on here, DA is that they're depressed and don't like people. Paladins may not be happy all the time and certainly would have their share of misery like anyone else. A perfect example of this is Galahad. He had to watch a woman he loved die of an inclurable disease, then wore her hair as a belt (which she made for him as a gift). There are many examples of Paladins and if you really look at the circumstances, they have a generally positive outlook. A paladin has such faith in their god and cause that they truly believe that they will conquer despite the rampant evil in the world they live. Most paladins would at worst be civil to the average person and usually paladins don't judge people before they know them or their motives. You may be surprised if you saw a paladin; that he would indeed be generally cheerful. Hope does strange things to your attitude. Now, that like anything else about a paladin is not written in stone. A paladin may very well be perpetually angry about the evil in the world and you may not see him cheerful, but the thread of faith and hope would keep him going in spite of it and he would undoubtedly still find happiness in spite of it...if only briefly as he is relaxing between battles or spending time with friends.
Timespike 11-18-06, 12:26 AM	Be a hero. Never give up. Remember that you are supernaturally afraid of nothing. Not death, not humiliation, not pain. And when in doubt, sacrifice yourself with a smile on your lips. "Hero" is your job description. You don't have to go after everyone or everything that detects as evil, but you should definitely note what sets off your "radar". Fight courageously. Be aware of your abilities, and use them to maximum effect, and I'm not not just talking mechanically. Give some extra RP value to your aura of courage by telling allies to "stand fast" to "fear not" and to "stay with me". Be inspiring, not annoying. My paladin has climbed a wall of razor-sharp rocks with a passenger he didn't trust on his back, challenged someone he wasn't sure he could beat to a duel, then when he had him at his mercy, actually showed mercy, smashed a powerful evil magic item he knew would explode because he had no other means of destroying it, and has otherwise given of himself, both to his party and to innocent strangers.
Timespike 11-18-06, 12:39 AM	Okay, I think the best idea to look at here, is history/literature/mythology. Paladin-like characters are not common, nor are they easy, nor are they ambiguous. Putting PALADIN lvl 1 on your character sheet implies that you are a character not out to get away with what you can and still keep your divine gifts, nor does it mean that you are playing a pansy. A paladin is a hallowed knight. Knights kill for the sake of a greater cause. They tread through fire, they slog their swords in ankle-deep oceans of blood if need be, or they might be content to burp a baby or reason with a madman to calm him if that is the required task to let righteousness prevail. The cool thing about a paladin is that they have to retain their righteous, kind, and benevolent motives for everything they do regardless of what demon urinated in their wheaties this week. A code of conduct is a code of conduct, not an amendable constitution to be litigated by player-lawyers. However, it drives me up a wall when things are assumed about a paladin that are not actually a part of the code of conduct. A paladin can gamble, drink, make love, vent his frustration, and other such borderline issues, if done in moderation and in a proper setting. PALADINS AREN'T PERKY OR CHEERY... They probably have the most grim, scolding, disdaining attitude of all classes, because they are constantly shoved into a world whose dishonor and wickedness makes them sick. Paladins oftentimes don't -like you- and don't -pretend- to like you. In short, a paladin is a bad mo fo, who is not supposed to be emo or naive, nor is he supposed to be as crooked as a New Orleans politician. I agree on most of this, though not so much the scolding, at least in the parties I've played a paladin in. My current PC is very grim; almost totally humorless, actually. He rarely smiles, fights with brutal efficiency, and takes punishment with extreme stoicism. He also would willing die for the rest of the party, and they know it. He almost has, on several occasions. Self sacrifice comes as naturally to him as breathing, but he has no tolerance for those who would harm the innocent. Faced with a mob of mind-controlled innocents, he waded in with fists for subdual damage (tears streaming down his face at having to harm innocents even slightly) and then, upon reaching the bastards controlling them, cut them down without comment and finished with a smite-augmented coup de grace. He has stood alone against a tide of monsters to protect a couple of people who had no significance to anything, except that they were innocent. No prophecy saying that the woman or her child were destined for something important; nothing like that. He's had his face ripped off and continued fighting. He's had his face slashed open and continued fighting. He's climbed a wall of razor-sharp rocks with someone he didn't fully trust ON HIS BACK, because it was the only chance they had of righting some grievous wrongs. He's challenged what he assumed was a superior opponent to single combat to save a friend. I have done no less than a half-dozen things that I thought "okay, he's going to die here" because they were the right thing to do. He's five parts Solomon Kane, one part Gallahad, three parts Maximus Decimus Meridias, and one part Wyatt Earp (as portrayed in Tombstone). The innocent and the righteous have nothing to fear when he is around. The wicked, on the other hand, quake.
Mr. VanderMeer 11-18-06, 05:49 AM	(tears streaming down his face at having to harm innocents even slightly) So he's just a big cry baby then? :D :D :D Just kidding. I think the character you portray here is good example of what a Paladin should strive to be. (except for the crying maybe)
Timespike 11-18-06, 08:46 AM	So he's just a big cry baby then? :D :D :D Just kidding. I think the character you portray here is good example of what a Paladin should strive to be. (except for the crying maybe) "Never trust a man who can't cry." -Norman Schwarzkopf The fact that he can weep, and weep openly is indicative of several things; it was a conscious decision. 1. No cynicism. He may be hardened and grim, but he still believes in innocence, and hates to see it harmed. 2. He's still got compassion. 3. He's very honest, on a basic level. He can hide his emotions when it's necessary. When it isn't, he doesn't, including his tears. 4. He's got enough self-control to weep, but keep fighting, rather than sitting down and wailing ineffectually. It's also worth noting that Michael Nemerov (the paladin described above) isn't the only one I've ever played. Another one, with a very differet personality, was Killian Augustus Blake. He liked alcohol, good tobacco, and good music, but all in moderation. He met the rest of the party by wandering into the inn where they were staying and casually buying a round of drinks for the house. He was friendly, affable, and generous... ...and a cleric/paladin of a storm god. Evil things tended to be fried by bolts of lightning when he was around, but he was casually humble about it. Michael almost never smiles, Killian almost never stopped smiling, unless confronted with something truly horrific. His charisma score was so high that when he faced undead, he'd casually blast them to dust with a turning attempt and then kind of casually scuff the ashes away like dust on a baseball diamond. Xarad Penja was a ranger/paladin/knight of the chalice, and was a consummate tactician and professional fiend hunter. He approached fighting evil as a very demanding job; one that he was good at. While Michael's courage manifests as grim resolve and Killian's manifested as cheerful fearlessness, Xarad's manifested as professional detachment. They'd all react in the good an honorable way to situations, but their personalities were all very different.
theotherdraxen 11-18-06, 08:43 PM	...and finished with a smite-augmented coup de grace. That has to be one of the coolest finished I've ever heard of.
holylink718 11-18-06, 09:07 PM	This has been bugging me, and I have time today. The long and the short of it? Paladins are too good for you. You see it allot, paladin this paladin that, paladins are a strange class. Even the bard's restriction is based on a recordable value. An entry on the character sheet, but paladins are restricted in their very actions. Something weird is going on here. Unlike a chaotic alignment, or any alignment for that matter - its an evil action that is in question here. Furthermore they are not allowed to knowingly associate with evil people. The action of working with an evil person is sufficient to be borderline behavior. Sounds like some sorta parole or something ;) But herein lies the secret of having fun with a paladin. You have to play with them. You cannot play a paladin the way allot of people play their characters. Basically - you can't play yourself. You have close your eyes and play a character that is a little bit blind. Tragic really. Every paladin is a holy man in and of himself. Gods do not designate these cracky super soldiers. Their power comes from a faith in themselves. The secret to playing a paladin is not check every single person you ever meet for evil. That simple. Just play stupid. Don't take sense motive! Goodness! You don't want your character to know what he is doing! Unless you playing with a super hero team of world savers (boooooring) you have to play a paladin a little dingy. Makes sense though.. a paladin is so full of himself that he spontaneously generates positive energy. As I just said, you can play a keen and resolute (elite array) paladin in a do gooders game wherein the plot revolves around properly smiting some dark deity or another. Holy men, golden hearted rouges, and a hero of legendary arrogance. Great story, been there done that. I have also played a paladin in the midst of a mire of villainy. I wrote lawful stupid on the character sheet because LG was implied by class, and everyone else was either N, L, or E. The story revolved around money, and his story revolved around being tricked into doing things. How was he to know that the Marquee was not really selling elvish children to a orcish restaurant chain? This was a setting where a good half the population of the city was evil, all but three of the city nobles were evil. It would have been obscene for me to have the guy go on a serial killer rampage, instead he defended the good from evil. He connected good people with other good people, and he tried his best to sway those with out evil in their hearts toward the side of good. The two (of four) other player's characters that he "associated" with were neutral greedy. The other two were back scenes. Rarely seen by my character. Off feeding orphans during important events as he often was between scenes. One time I got into a fight that lasted the entire game session, purely as a distraction for the thieves. The man was evil and the lady was pure of heart I could easily see. "My Friends" got a few drinks in him and he decided to go defend her honor. A mighty man was he indeed, and it took no less then half the guards on duty to restrain him. We cut back and forth in two round bursts. It was pretty cool. There was allot of neat timing, and irony. The real secret? I made the choice to violate the restrictions of conduct - four times. Once to work with the wizard. Once to kill a child (it was evil, but it was still a child). And... twice to steal. How fun is that? Well I said "I am violating his code of conduct because.." each time. I decided that the action was beyond his code, but was still something that the person inside the honor would be too weak to resist. You know your having fun with a paladin when you say to one of your fellow players "My paladin is too good to speak to you, he walks away." and everyone giggles. Admittedly this means your GM has to spin some situations a little more carefully, but that's how you play with a paladin.. and have fun. Yeah, but if your going to bend the rules, don't play a paladin. What's the fun in cheating? I'm sorry, "bending the rules." Just play a NG Fighter who does what he thinks is right and be done with it. The games not as fun when you play like that. The paladin is supposed to be like that. (Just my opinion.) :D
Timespike 11-18-06, 09:38 PM	That has to be one of the coolest finished I've ever heard of. Yeah, I felt pretty cool afterwards for thinking of it. It's a waste of a smite, mechanically-speaking, but it is SUCH a paladin thing to do. I turned a ceremonial glove strike to challenge an opponent to a duel into a smite, too. Turns out that guy wasn't evil, though. (And after the duel was over, and the other guy had several broken bones and was generally a bloody mess, the paladin offered to patch him up with his lay on hands ability.) Also, I've given some thought to a good way of boiling down what I consider to be essential paladin philosophy to one simple phrase. The results: "It is better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper."
Stormbrand 11-19-06, 04:36 PM	Yeah, I felt pretty cool afterwards for thinking of it. It's a waste of a smite, mechanically-speaking, but it is SUCH a paladin thing to do. I turned a ceremonial glove strike to challenge an opponent to a duel into a smite, too. Turns out that guy wasn't evil, though. (And after the duel was over, and the other guy had several broken bones and was generally a bloody mess, the paladin offered to patch him up with his lay on hands ability.) Also, I've given some thought to a good way of boiling down what I consider to be essential paladin philosophy to one simple phrase. The results: "It is better to right and die than to do wrong and prosper." Just let me say I was well impressed. Exactly how to play a paladin.
justanartist 11-19-06, 07:23 PM	I think a lot of good comments have been made in these posts. I like paladins, and think that are a fine PC class (I could see them as a house-ruled PrC for LG characters too, but that's another topic). Not to drag this out any further, but a character that I think represents the spirit of a paladin is Aragorn from LOTR (not necessarily the movie, but the novels). He was always upright and virtuous. Wise and kind. Aragorn yearned to defeat evil hordes, but he made peace, and parlayed when he could. He would kill an orc in battle, but saw little joy or need to slay in cold blood. In games I've played, paladins have often taken unconcious or surrendered villians prisoner (much to our fighters disapproval) and taken them to justice (if possible). I've also see other paladins parlay with villians, making them vow not to take evil actions against the group or society again, or justice would be done. Sometimes the paladin had to live up to that, and kill the villian when they attacked us later. Additionally, the paladin in our current game is one of the best warriors in the group. His buffs, coupled with smites make him a HARD hitter.
theotherdraxen 11-20-06, 11:30 PM	Just let me say I was well impressed. Exactly how to play a paladin. Seconded. Timespike knows how to play a Paladin.
Timespike 11-21-06, 12:17 AM	Seconded. Timespike knows how to play a Paladin. Thank you. Both of you. :)
Stormbrand 12-02-06, 09:59 PM	Actually, I would be very interested in hearing more about Micheal Nemerov. As an aside, I am writing some D&D fiction in my spare time, based around the Tethyr knightly orders. So another question worth asking, do you mind me using some of the material (not names but lifting phrases, I so love "Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper")? I once played a paladin-mage who was retired at 18th level. Knight-sorcerer of Helm and a very warm caring figure. Unfortunately the DM stopped making the effort and just started throwing bigger and bigger monsters at us which were usually modified on the fly along with substituting conversation with Diabloesque give-quest passages. Anyway, my paladin-mage was a warm, caring figure. A deadly tactician, but constantly showed such compassion and determination that he inspired those around him and somehow ended up leader of the party because he motivated the other characters. I started writing a background for this character, and it was so much fun that I started writing fiction since.
neceros 12-04-06, 01:03 AM	Yeah, I felt pretty cool afterwards for thinking of it. It's a waste of a smite, mechanically-speaking, but it is SUCH a paladin thing to do. That's not true! Smites are almost worthless all of the time.
Timespike 12-04-06, 12:53 PM	Actually, I would be very interested in hearing more about Micheal Nemerov. As an aside, I am writing some D&D fiction in my spare time, based around the Tethyr knightly orders. So another question worth asking, do you mind me using some of the material (not names but lifting phrases, I so love "Better to do right and die than to do wrong and prosper")? Feel free to use ANYthing I post. :) As far as "hearing more about him", what, specifically, would you like to hear?
Dandragonsbane 12-04-06, 04:05 PM	All I ever hear from people in my campaigns is how hard it is to play a unique paladin, i really have to disagree, paladins are some of the most interesting classes in the game when played right. I have a lvl 20 half fiend/ half-human paladin, it is so cool to play him, I actually made up a new skill for him alone, Self Control, (I have him make this check whenever they party is in a fight, if he fails a DC 15 check he becomes in raged and lashes and anything within reach). Being a half fiend he is forever drawn towards evil so it's much harder for him to be a good paladin, he had a horribly rough childhood and is constantly at odds with himself, my party both loves and hates him because he tends to be at odds with all but the half-celestial of the party. I'm actually planning on creating a fanfic around him at the urging of my fellow players.
Stormbrand 12-06-06, 03:02 PM	Feel free to use ANYthing I post. :) As far as "hearing more about him", what, specifically, would you like to hear? Thank you. Kind of things that would interest me. Why did he become so grim? He is humourless, so how does he react to humour from others? What would he be like to be around? How apparant is his kindness when there is not trouble? What kind of standards does he expect from others? He is stoic in the extreme, so how capable is he of empathy? What was the situation with the tide of monsters & protecting the woman and child? How did that happen? How did he survive? The brain-eater on his back when he climbed the rocks, what happened in the end with that? Paladin stories interest me. The paladin I played had a Place Prepared For Him which meant that he would go to lower planes on his death, no matter how much good he did with his life. This confused the rest of the party as to why he became a paladin, since he still had unthinkable torment ahead of him. That paladin ended up with some long-term inevitable allies which he brought with him whenever he had a seek-and-destroy mission. Unfortunately he couldn't bring them on protection missions but they were deadly when hunting powerful fugitives. Also the presence of an inevitable was a powerful message that you have done wrong. The symbolism it carried appealled to me. Implacable incarnations of retribution added to the whole what-evil-should-fear feel.
Timespike 12-09-06, 07:43 PM	Thank you. Kind of things that would interest me. Why did he become so grim? He was a soldier in his pre-paladin days and saw a lot of atrocities on both sides in a war her fought in. He never participated, and tried to stop as much as he could, but, well, a level 1 warrior isn't capable of much. He is humourless, so how does he react to humour from others? He doesn't react, mostly. He's got one hell of a poker face. Though it's worth mentioning that he's actually not totally without humor, he's just so world-weary that it rarely shows. What would he be like to be around? How apparant is his kindness when there is not trouble? He's probably a little uncomfortable to be around, until you realize that this somewhat scary-looking guy with massive facial scars (he's got a row of five of them that track from his hairline on the right side of his face to his jawline on the left) and bulging muscles will DIE for you if that's what it takes to keep you safe. He's almost a little paternal towards his adventuring companions, all but one of which are female. He's also exhibited some amazing dancing ability; one of the women in his party partnered up with him at a ball they were attending, and once they got their varied regional dance styles synched up, had the entire ball slack-jawed at the beauty of their performance. He then later challenged an opponent he thought would kick his ass to a duel to the death, kicked his ass instead, and spared him. The rest of his party loves him, but they wish he would smile. What kind of standards does he expect from others? He is stoic in the extreme, so how capable is he of empathy? The rest of the party is solidly good-aligned, so the standards thing really hasn't been too much of an issue. Don't harm his friends or innocent people (through action or inaction), and he's fairly easy to be around. The CG rogue makes him wince every once in a while, but he's not above using stealth himself, either. He's actually very empathetic, but it's not obvious unless it's needed. He's capable of, and has exhibited, staggering amounts of kindness. After one expedition where he came into some money, he and the party's cleric just went in search of some people who were in need and gave about half of it away out of hand. (This is also in a game where cash has been extremely scarce!) He also realized some time ago just how scary-looking he is (especially in his black armor) and has used that to his advantage. The GM is letting his aura of courage function as an aura of menace in certain situations. Another paladin truism I like is "The wrath of the righteous is terrible to behold." What was the situation with the tide of monsters & protecting the woman and child? How did that happen? How did he survive? That was my GM giving me a chance to be heroic and me leaping at it. He got separated by a time-warping castle from the rest of his group, and popped into a time when a huge invasion force hit the castle. The woman & child were in similar straits. He took on the horde of invaders (Ravenloft goblyns; nasty face-eating things) all by himself for a while, and then the time warp effect added a few duplicates of him to his side. Eventually the monsters realized what they were up against and pulled back. The brain-eater on his back when he climbed the rocks, what happened in the end with that? He got through okay. It was when he got back down again that it got really interesting. That was the mob of mind-controlled innocents that he subdual-fought through. He slew the mind flayers controlling them with extreme prejudice, though. Paladin stories interest me. The paladin I played had a Place Prepared For Him which meant that he would go to lower planes on his death, no matter how much good he did with his life. This confused the rest of the party as to why he became a paladin, since he still had unthinkable torment ahead of him. That paladin ended up with some long-term inevitable allies which he brought with him whenever he had a seek-and-destroy mission. Unfortunately he couldn't bring them on protection missions but they were deadly when hunting powerful fugitives. Also the presence of an inevitable was a powerful message that you have done wrong. The symbolism it carried appealled to me. Implacable incarnations of retribution added to the whole what-evil-should-fear feel. Yeah, as you can probably tell, I like some of the same stuff, but Michael is only level 6 or 7 (the GM isn't letting us see our character sheets) so he's way below the point of having Inevitables on his side.
Rowan_Whispercloak 12-10-06, 01:29 PM	My first paladin was a half-elf in the Forgotten Realm, follower of Chauntea, the earth mother. He was more than happy to farm, and was helped the local healer for his villiage. He left his village with a childhood friend, a bard, (the son of the villiage healer) to keep him safe. He friend always complained that he was never like the knights in the stories, knights dided swing a scythe or plant crops. He finally took the middle ground and started to use an axe. The reason he didn't like a sword was it only had one use and that was to kill at least an axe could be used to cut down trees for to build a home and split logs to keep that house warm. He was a quiet, calm person, loved to feel the earth between his fingers while planting. Whenever the party was in town he spent most of his time helping the local or playing games with the children of the town. He was very shy around women and looked at them with reverence that border on awe. He hated to have to kill, but knew that evil if not stopped could become a poisonous weed that choked the life out of all that was good.
Stormbrand 12-11-06, 12:15 PM	Let me say that is an amazing campaign you are in Timespike. My paladin reached 18th level and has fewer truly memorable moments behind him. There weren't many chances for me to be heroic but there were a LOT of times when other PCs would have been in trouble had I not acted quickly and accepted risk. Killing mind flayers is never prejudice. If there is one thing all races and alignments, all things everywhere, can agree on, it is lets kill the blasted mind flayers! Or yet unblasted mind flayers. BOOM! Fixed. As for inevitables, I got hold of them in a strange way. The character was multiclassed as a sorcerer, and used his spells n the basis of keeping evil contained (Magic (binding) Circles, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal - no one thought to consider these were spells any demonologist would have). Handily enough, inevitables are easy to manipulate if you respect the rules. Planar Bindings summoned them and they agreed to serve as retainers in exchange for using divination to find them transgressors to hunt down. After all, nearly anyone a paladin would want dead is a fair target for an inevitable of some kind. Of course, the fierce scars and black armour tinkers with the standard paladin image somewhat, but the innocents must be reassured to know that scary figure is one of the good guys. The actual looking for those in need to distribute the treasure to must have been a great moment to roleplay. Rowan: Interesting concept, although nature paladins feel wierd to me, I think you have done a fine job of adding personality to your paladin. One of the things I would love to write about is a paladin farming or fixing a roof for someone, just to show there are more ways to be noble and heroic than in combat. One of the things which amazes me is how people expect paladins to be bland, whereas they are the most charismatic members of the party. Is that just people playing them wrong?
aleshandre 12-11-06, 06:55 PM	Absolutely it's people playing them wrong. I have a paladin who has a great sense of humor and actually jokes at the most inconcievable things. He'll joke about death and combat and all kinds of things that you just wouldn't expect, but it's his way of dealing with unpleasant things. On the other hand, he's more than willing to risk his life to protect the innocent or to destroy those who want to bring destruction on entire nations. For example, in the last major battle they were in, he fought against the king of a neighboring nation of orcs, who were about to overrrun the nation he was assigned to defend and kill every living thing in it. The fight was on the back of a gold dragon, who chose him to be the champion and against the king mounted on a black dragon. In the end, Amoron (my paladin) allowed himself to be wounded, so that he could drive all his power into a final blow against the king (he succeeded in killing the king with the last blow, but nearly died because of it...just as seen in a vision of another PC who's on the way to becoming a prophetess [a GM plot device]).
Stormbrand 12-13-06, 03:38 PM	Absolutely it's people playing them wrong. I have a paladin who has a great sense of humor and actually jokes at the most inconcievable things. He'll joke about death and combat and all kinds of things that you just wouldn't expect, but it's his way of dealing with unpleasant things. On the other hand, he's more than willing to risk his life to protect the innocent or to destroy those who want to bring destruction on entire nations. For example, in the last major battle they were in, he fought against the king of a neighboring nation of orcs, who were about to overrrun the nation he was assigned to defend and kill every living thing in it. The fight was on the back of a gold dragon, who chose him to be the champion and against the king mounted on a black dragon. In the end, Amoron (my paladin) allowed himself to be wounded, so that he could drive all his power into a final blow against the king (he succeeded in killing the king with the last blow, but nearly died because of it...just as seen in a vision of another PC who's on the way to becoming a prophetess [a GM plot device]). So the next question is how to make a paladin interesting? One idea is adversity. Let me know what you think. When writing Shadow & a Heart one of the characters I created was a paladin who went on a quest to seek just vengeance on a mercenary warrior who he had seen do great wrongs in the past (he took hjobs for criminal guilds) As it turned out, the mercenary had made other enemies as well, who were far less honourable. These old enemies threatened the merc's family. So the paladin was defending the guys relatives. That part was not in doubt. The hard part is deciding what to do with the merc when he found him.
Stormbrand 12-13-06, 03:39 PM	just as seen in a vision of another PC who's on the way to becoming a prophetess [a GM plot device]). Then why is he the one getting the visions? And not the prophetess, that is what they are there for.
aleshandre 12-13-06, 07:23 PM	She was the one who got the vision. She's not a full fledged prophetess yet, hence the phrasing. I like that conflict. Another less honorable person, would have let the others kill the merc's family or at least one or two and perhaps even helped, but a paladin protects all innocent where possible, even when related to the guilty. As for what to do when he finally meets the mercenary himself? Inform him that his family is safe and of the threat to them, then offer the merc a chance to redeem himself, so he can protect his family. If he refuses, then justice should fall as appropriate.
Stormbrand 12-13-06, 08:18 PM	Well, the merc went after the people targeting his family and got killed. So the paladin never had to make that choice. He often looked back and wondered though. What I wanted to highlight in that dilemma is that doing right can mean losing the thing we want the most. That character really wanted revenge, and also recover his shame in having not prevented those crimes first time around. My favourite paladin-sorcerer (suspected demonologist:rolleyes: ) suffered from loneliness. He really wanted to share his heart, but knew the cost to the one who accepted it. Every day, he prayed for his god to turn his heart to stone. Every day, the god refused, forseeing some major biological problems had he complied. In another thread, someone thought up a nice dilemma. 1) A warband of gnolls attacks a human settlement, Ragewinter the paladin is in a position to protect the village and does so. As part of this he organises a defence for the townsfolk. After driving off the gnolls, he trains the townsfolk to better defend themselves for when he moves on. But, the townsfolk find the gnoll clan's lair and decides to wipe them out once and for all. However, this is not a warband they attack, but those left at home. So what about the children who have done nothing wrong? Now he has to defend the gnoll pups against the very same humans he taught to defend themselves.
Timespike 12-14-06, 01:15 AM	Absolutely it's people playing them wrong. I have a paladin who has a great sense of humor and actually jokes at the most inconcievable things. He'll joke about death and combat and all kinds of things that you just wouldn't expect, but it's his way of dealing with unpleasant things. Real-life police officers do the same thing. And if there's one profession that can be at all paladin-like in the modern world, it's police officers. (Part of why I'm hoping to be one some day, incidentally.)
Stormbrand 12-17-06, 04:29 PM	What happens much of the time is that when you grow accustomed to dealing with nightmarish things, they stop feeling like tabboo subjects. Think about the soul-blasting horrors he has faced and what mark they have left. How do they react to the harsh truths of their life? I remember a book called Haunted by Kelley Armstrong, she had an angel guide someone through sensing evil. It was not fun.
WolfHati 12-24-06, 02:07 AM	How come so many people have problems playing a character who's a nice guy who follows just rules because they help people in general, and who happens to be good at hitting things with a sword and finds it fulfilling to help and defend people? A paladin can most certainly be pleasant, but if someone's being a jerk, lying, cheating, stealing, their attitude quickly goes toward the angered side of things.
aleshandre 12-24-06, 05:20 AM	The answer to that is simple. Most people now days have no idea what it means to actually care about other people first and do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. If you don't have that in the first place, playing a character that is like that is very difficult. It's easy to play a character that thinks of personal gain more than the welfare of others first, because that's what most people do now. The idea of self sacrifice is foriegn to most people.
roninwolf109 12-25-06, 11:53 AM	If I may: I played a Paladin for the first time recently in a campain that my friend was DMing. I had a hard time at first wrapping my head around being all LG an all (used to playing NG, CG, and any variation on the big E) until one word got into my head (okay, after rewatching the Star Wars movies): Jedi. Or more to the point a mix of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
PiedmonSama 12-25-06, 01:25 PM	The answer to that is simple. Most people now days have no idea what it means to actually care about other people first and do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. If you don't have that in the first place, playing a character that is like that is very difficult. It's easy to play a character that thinks of personal gain more than the welfare of others first, because that's what most people do now. The idea of self sacrifice is foriegn to most people. Hate to disagree, but I don't think that's it. Most people can play an altruist, whether they themselves are or not. It's not a great stretch of the imagination.... I think what makes a Paladin good is the combination of law and good. When you're a NG, CG or even LG fighter, it's enough to justify that "good" stamped on your character sheet by saying "hey, I saved the mud farmers from that Ogre even though they couldn't pay me." But everyone has the sense that a Paladin needs to go one step further even than that.... it's just no one's sure how. There has to be a difference between a Paladin and a LG Fighter who lives by a code of honor, and I'm not talking about class abilities.
Alex_Belinsky 12-25-06, 04:06 PM	I think I can bring some "paladin thoughts", as some suggestions for paladin's behavior. These maxims were created in groups where I play in past. "If I do not, then who else?" - our paladins often do disliked things and sometimes go to certain death if these deeds must be done. If he can help the poor without endangering party's (noble) goal - so be it, for it is right thing to do. His own prosperity is irrelevant. If there is BBEG - he must be confronted (not always by sword, our paladins often try diplomacy, for this can save many raise dead casting costs). If there are many ill folk at city hospital - paladin can help, even for free. If plague looms over fair city because of congestions in sewers... well you get the point :) "I did it because I feel it's right" - I don't know english word for "unconscious consciousness". Paladins often do things they feel "will be right". There are no reason for helping some peasants to drag the wagon from dirt on the road - pure waste of time - but sometimes paladin do this (sometimes not). "If deed is done, reward is second matter" - I don't like NWN2 approach "less reward - more Good". If paladin was rewarded - that's good. If people cannot reward for valid reason - so be it. If people is greedy - explain this to them, fair and square, not for additional income, but for their own enlightement. And I must say, being extreme LG is difficult. As statement of players community in my city said: CE is diagnosis CG is local disaster LE is profitable position LG is epitaph But we will try again and again to play sometime paladins. They're good for us :) PS: I'm sorry for my poor English, hope I was understandable.
Adolph_Kheebler 12-25-06, 08:04 PM	You want to play a paladin? Just try the new Insta-Paladin kit!* Available in stores from Waterdeep to Thay. Every new Paladin needs one. Why for only 50gp you to can count yourself among the ranks of these noble soldiers of justice. <open box><box contains a foot long stick and a hammer> Required pieces 1. Insta-Paladin brand stick 2. Insta-Paladin brand hammer 3. Really good friend Instructions 1. Remove pants 2. Bend over in front of Really good friend 3. Really good friend positions stick at...ok you get the idea of the rest of this. For those of you who's good nature has grown beyond the allowable amount for this kit, we have not forgotten you. Available in the shops of Union is the Epic Paladin kit. For only 5000gp you get the Insta-Paladin brand +1Greathammer and the Insta-Paladin brand 10-foot pole. So join the ranks of these noble warriors of justice and buy the Insta-Paladin Kit wherever magic weapons are sold! *Made In Thaywan
aleshandre 12-26-06, 10:36 AM	That's where self sacrifice comes in. Sacrifice is all about holding yourself up to a higher level of scrutiny than other people, so that there is no question where you stand ever. Sacrifice hurts. Giving up personal pleasure and comfort for the sake of others that you don't even know is something that pushes you beyond that altruistic attitude. Altruism encompases doing good for others for which you gain personal satisfaction, either as a direct result of the act performed or because you feel that your reward will be elsewhere or later in life. It implies an ability to look beyond the moment and see the big picture. Sacrifice encompases letting go of things that are important and valuable to you, having faith that you will not be left desolate.
theotherdraxen 12-26-06, 06:46 PM	@Adolph Kheebler: you should read Timespike's posts at the top of this page. He offers a couple of examples of how a paladin can be played well.
Stormbrand 12-27-06, 03:33 PM	That's where self sacrifice comes in. Sacrifice is all about holding yourself up to a higher level of scrutiny than other people, so that there is no question where you stand ever. Sacrifice hurts. Giving up personal pleasure and comfort for the sake of others that you don't even know is something that pushes you beyond that altruistic attitude. Altruism encompases doing good for others for which you gain personal satisfaction, either as a direct result of the act performed or because you feel that your reward will be elsewhere or later in life. It implies an ability to look beyond the moment and see the big picture. Sacrifice encompases letting go of things that are important and valuable to you, having faith that you will not be left desolate. The self-sacrifice concept is a large part of being a paladin. A paladin knows he is going to pay for doing good, and doesn't mind. 'If when my death comes, I have made the world a safer place, I will die smiling.' Try to say that and mean it, then you will have a good idea what it is like to be a paladin.
camirblu 12-27-06, 06:19 PM	I've a huge amount of respect for someone who can play a paladin to that degree. I've seen it done extremely well. It will leave you floored. So here's to paladins and the people who play them. :) For everyone else, I hope you have the opportunity someday, if you haven't already.
OneWinged4ngel 12-27-06, 11:54 PM	That has to be one of the coolest finished I've ever heard of. Hmmm, a smite-augmented coup de grace? Cool? If you say so... That gives me an idea... ;) I've a huge amount of respect for someone who can play a paladin to that degree. I've seen it done extremely well. It will leave you floored. Meh, I'm more the sort who will get frustrated with a game if they don't play at that degree. It's kinda what I expect from people. But I'm picky like that.
camirblu 12-28-06, 01:12 AM	Onewing: if you play online, drop me a line sometime. :)
OneWinged4ngel 12-28-06, 12:58 PM	It would be easier if PMs worked for you... you seem to have them disabled or something :( But yes... I do play online and actually was thinking of DMing a new Eberron campaign soon. My contact information is conveniently located in the upper right hand corner of all of my posts. ;)
Timespike 12-29-06, 01:11 AM	You want to play a paladin? Just try the new Insta-Paladin kit!* Available in stores from Waterdeep to Thay. Every new Paladin needs one. Why for only 50gp you to can count yourself among the ranks of these noble soldiers of justice. <open box><box contains a foot long stick and a hammer> Required pieces 1. Insta-Paladin brand stick 2. Insta-Paladin brand hammer 3. Really good friend Instructions 1. Remove pants 2. Bend over in front of Really good friend 3. Really good friend positions stick at...ok you get the idea of the rest of this. For those of you who's good nature has grown beyond the allowable amount for this kit, we have not forgotten you. Available in the shops of Union is the Epic Paladin kit. For only 5000gp you get the Insta-Paladin brand +1Greathammer and the Insta-Paladin brand 10-foot pole. So join the ranks of these noble warriors of justice and buy the Insta-Paladin Kit wherever magic weapons are sold! *Made In Thaywan I realize this is intended as a joke, but it needn't be so. Michael Nemerov, my current paladin PC, is very hardened and stoic. He's chaste (for extremely good RP reasons that would require lengthy explanation; suffice to say he's looking for a lost love) and doesn't smoke, but enjoys good alcohol (in small amounts; he prefers to stay focused because Ravenloft is dangerous) and good food when it's offered. He's probably got the biggest "stick" of any paladin I've ever played, which is to say not much. Evildoers and criminals find him terrifying, but his party members love and care for him, and he's very attached to them, too. Very much the warrior archetype. He holds himself to a very high standard of honor and decency, and an even higher one of courage, but doesn't browbeat the others with it. Case in point, latest Michael story: He escaped death recently when one of his party mates refused to let him die. He'd been poisoned with a nasty "die screaming" poison called "borrowed time" that can't be gotten rid of through normal means and requires an antidote every so often. So was the (evil, but helpless and terrified) guy he had just captured. Both started to feel the effects at the same time. Michael was going to let the poison kill him, rather than killing a helpless prisoner for his antidote or letting him die after he'd taken it away. One of his party members grabbed another vial from another bad guy who was in similar straits, and used her incredible jump, tumble, balance, and initiative modifiers to vault over him, land on his shoulders piggy-back style, and pour it down his throat before he could shake her off. He just sat down in the snow and stared at his sword for a while after that. His relationship with the party member who saved him was slightly strained, but not broken.
Timespike 12-29-06, 01:38 AM	Another good, if somewhat overharsh at times, example for paladin courage and valor: 300 by Frank Miller. They're making a movie out of it, but snag the graphic novel and read it. You can do so in about 45 minutes. Some choice bits: "If they assassinate me, all of Sparta goes to war. Pray they're that stupid. Pray we're that lucky." "Every Greek knew what was right, but only the Spartans chose to do it!" One quick note: if you're playing a Spartan-inspired paladin, a LOT more mercy is in order. The Spartans had none. An enemy soldier, lying on the battlefield screams "Mercy!" and the Spartan says "Coward." and runs him through with his spear. This conduct should not be used on minions, mercenaries, and enemies who are not ultimately evil themselves.
king0thepirates 12-30-06, 10:23 AM	i have a couple quotes that,though they refer to jedi and are from the starwars universe,i believe thta they can easily apply to paladins as well "Many feel that a Jedi should be scrupulously honest, never taking advantage, and never withholding information. This is nonsense." —Odan-Urr "To be brave in battle proves nothing. Bravery itself proves nothing. A Jedi should be prepared to put aside fear, regret, and uncertainty and either fight, run, surrender, or die." —Odan-Urr
_awally_ 12-30-06, 09:00 PM	sorry if this is a bit off topic at the moment or way too long, but i was recommended to this thread regarding how would i go about playing a bad a$$ maybe even a little outside of the code of conduct kind of paladin without it blowing up in my face, advice on how to do this or maybe even sharing personal experiences with this kind of thing would be much appreciated thanks :)
aleshandre 12-30-06, 10:10 PM	I'd say probably your best bet without getting too out there is go for a Punisher type. He's a bit dark for your average paladin and has no mercy, but his only goal is to protect the innocent and punnish the guilty. I definitely wouldn't reccomend this approach for anyone who hasn't played a true to form paladin before and enough to truely understand what should be the motivation for a paladin.
Volund_Starfire 01-02-07, 07:41 PM	I personally play my Paladin similiar to a Jedi. The only down-side being that I don't get 3 chances before losing. He's a fighter, yes. But he is also more than that. He is a diplomat, a healer, and a general consul and/or decider of right from wrong. You can play the Paladin who hapilly swings his sword against every evil he sees, or the kind that will use diplomacy and his wits and draw his sword only if there is no other way.
imworlds 01-03-07, 07:05 PM	Wouldn't Roland from Stephen King's Dark Tower books be a paladin? In the novels he is described as a "gunslinger," which would at first glance suggest a wild west archetype, but Roland the Last Gunslinger comes from an honorable era of knighthood and acts more in-line with a paladin than the western outlaw on the fringes of society. His real job before the apocalypse that occurs in the book was a knight of high station. The guns he carries are symbols of knighthood in that world. I mention this because a paladin doesn't necessarily need to be pigeonholed into a look or even a feel. King redefines the archetype, melding a western look onto the old paladin type. At his core, Roland embodies the qualities of the paladin: a noble-ranking knight (he even speaks the High Speech that commoners do not speak) who upholds justice, peace and the order of the kingdom, and carries on a divine mission against the forces of evil (The Tower being his Holy Cup and crusade). His guns are the symbols of his knightly order and the concept of societal order itself. Roland is also more interesting than most paladins (in my opinion) because King has flavored the character in a unique and new way.
Stormbrand 01-09-07, 02:59 PM	Here is a dangerous event for my Paladin-Sorcerer. Recently he has defeated a group of fiends that were using ritually-induced possession to manifest themselves on the material plane (effectively transforming their hosts), one of those he rescued and cleansed from the fiends was a Heartwarder of Sune. She has been traumatised, when a Sunite beauty of CHA 23 spends near a month held prisoner by the embodiments of absolute evil one can just imagine what happened to her... dozens of times each day. Looking for a way to help her recover from her ordeal, the Paladin-Sorcerer used Planar Binding to call in a celestial to help her recover (Heart's Ease - BoED). Seems the decent thing to do. Unfortunately, the celestial outright refuses to deal with the character because he is "tainted" (where his sorcerer magic comes from). It is disregarding anything said to it. The plan was to show the celestial someone in pain, have the celestial soothe her misery, then return it to the heavenly realms. It is being most uncooperative. Now one thing this character never makes is idle threats. If he says he will feast on your heart he may not actually enjoy the meal but someone is in imminent risk of death. As I understand him, the summoned celestial's to refusal to succor a suffering innocent places it at imminent risk of death. In short, efforts are being made to convince the celestial to help, but I would like some opinions of if it is acceptable for this paladin to destroy this celestial.
aleshandre 01-09-07, 06:40 PM	A celestial is by its very nature good. A paladin is dedicating to ridding the world of evil. He/she may not understand the celestial's reasoning, but that does not make the celestial evil, even if the refusal to help permits the person's death. There are times when the innocent must be permitted to die or suffer at the hands of evil beings, so that the punisment of thier evil deeds is the more just. There are other times when the innocent are permitted to suffer, so that they can gain strength from the experience. Permitting suffering or death does not of itself make a person or other creature evil. It is the motivation for permitting it that does that.
Stormbrand 01-10-07, 04:39 PM	I know the celestial's reasoning - it doesn't like where the character gets his sorcerer abilities from, therefore refuses to deal with him. So, because this spellcaster is "tainted," anything he says holds no weight - the aura of good which marks him as a paladin must be fake, his wish to relieve the suffering of an innocent must be a ploy. That is it's reason. The part about permitting the innocent to suffer at the hands of evil beings to make the punishment more just seems to me like a fine way to become a blackguard. So any tips how to convince it?