Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DesecrationAngel 12-08-06, 11:45 PM	I have come to find, that if there is a single @#$%^&ing chance of some crazy race/class/alignment/level dip being possible, people are going to do it. I am not against building an intelligent character mechanism, nor am I against some quirks to make a character unique. However, constantly defying something on the argument that it is 'possible' is driving me up a friggin' wall! What do I do about that lawful good ogre/half red dragon who monkey grips a large fullblade and takes 2 levels monk, 6 levels paladin, 1 fighter,1 rogue, and like 2 or three more prestige classes, claiming it all for roleplay purposes? THe min/maxing isn't as big an issue as the constant treading all over norms over and over again just because it's 'possible in the rules.' Like, i'm a lawful good ogre/red dragon with a lawful good manticore mount, and I swear that those ranks in pick pocket are for the greater good. This isn't actually a case, but it's an example of what aggravates me to no end. Like the emo, goodie two shoes dark elves, the noble-hearted demon paladins, the intellectual trolls, the macho, tough-as-nails high elves, the pacifistic wereboars, and the list of psychotic, overpopulated, and ridiculous conglameration of things people put together either to have high stats and ignore the implied cultural drawbacks, or just to be 'special' yet again. This is driving me insane! Doesn't anyone know how to play a dwarf fighter, gnome artificer, elven ranger, orc berserker, and halfling rogue anymore? And if people don't stop focusing on how awesome and flawless they can make their characters without any regard to sense or background/socio-cultural likelihood, i'm going to flip. And likewise for that party of five lone-wolf, brooding, selfish, apathetic, snobby, out-for-themselves characters. And those people that use chaotic or evil alignments to be completely wacky, and brutal. Being evil and liking to scalp children does not mean that you try to let everyone in town know it, at least if you want to live... I'm usually a player when these things occur, and while I don't have any real say on how the game is run, but i'm the only person bold enough to say outright that this stuff is ruining the experience for everyone else. What should I do?
theotherdraxen 12-09-06, 12:36 AM	What should I do? Ban elves from wielding great swords!:P While the whole "I'm going off to be a dwarf sorcerer" is about as grating as "I'm going to play a dark elf named Tzzird", sometimes, it's just a favorite role, or just a fun character to play. I personally like to break the stereotype every so often, but I like to have a good reason for it, and a cool look for it, too. Now, and elven barabarian doesn't sound very cool, but if you make said elf wear tribal gear, make him a wild elf, and use the UA Whirling Frenzy variant, and your elven barbarian becomes a raging, twirling, death machine. On the other hand, if you're playing a smart ogre because, "Ogres can be smart, too!", then maybe you need to put a good backstory behind it too and have a reason beyond 'defying the norm' as to why your character is the way he is. The converse is, in my opinion, as well true. You cannot just play a dumb raging ogre because 'ogres are always dumb and raging'.
YamiSouru 12-09-06, 01:46 AM	playing a anti stereotype is like playing a normal stereotype. claiming it to be otherwise is just foolish. However if only the anti-stereotype is bothering you i suggest playing a stereotype. However if you going to play a stereotype DO-NOT-HALF-ASS-IT!!! If you want to be a Dwaven fighter, then say it loud, you'r a dwarf and you'r proud! If you want to be a Bard, never pass up a oppurtunity to rock out as hard as you can to either earn a few coin or to boost your party. a Gnome artificer? Make your gnomey self a miniture tank just for YOU, complete with fireball canons and miniture hover pads. Just my thoughts on the matter. :D
Lethanic 12-09-06, 08:51 AM	I have come to find, that if there is a single @#$%^&ing chance of some crazy race/class/alignment/level dip being possible, people are going to do it. I am not against building an intelligent character mechanism, nor am I against some quirks to make a character unique. However, constantly defying something on the argument that it is 'possible' is driving me up a friggin' wall! What do I do about that lawful good ogre/half red dragon who monkey grips a large fullblade and takes 2 levels monk, 6 levels paladin, 1 fighter,1 rogue, and like 2 or three more prestige classes, claiming it all for roleplay purposes? THe min/maxing isn't as big an issue as the constant treading all over norms over and over again just because it's 'possible in the rules.' Like, i'm a lawful good ogre/red dragon with a lawful good manticore mount, and I swear that those ranks in pick pocket are for the greater good. This isn't actually a case, but it's an example of what aggravates me to no end. Like the emo, goodie two shoes dark elves, the noble-hearted demon paladins, the intellectual trolls, the macho, tough-as-nails high elves, the pacifistic wereboars, and the list of psychotic, overpopulated, and ridiculous conglameration of things people put together either to have high stats and ignore the implied cultural drawbacks, or just to be 'special' yet again. This is driving me insane! Doesn't anyone know how to play a dwarf fighter, gnome artificer, elven ranger, orc berserker, and halfling rogue anymore? And if people don't stop focusing on how awesome and flawless they can make their characters without any regard to sense or background/socio-cultural likelihood, i'm going to flip. And likewise for that party of five lone-wolf, brooding, selfish, apathetic, snobby, out-for-themselves characters. And those people that use chaotic or evil alignments to be completely wacky, and brutal. Being evil and liking to scalp children does not mean that you try to let everyone in town know it, at least if you want to live... I'm usually a player when these things occur, and while I don't have any real say on how the game is run, but i'm the only person bold enough to say outright that this stuff is ruining the experience for everyone else. What should I do? It getsto the point where these 'counter stereotype' are actually stereotypes themselves. They become "I'm going to be different, just like everyone else!"
aleshandre 12-09-06, 09:32 AM	Over at the Demotivators website, there's a poster that fits this kind of thing very well. Conformity. (http://www.despair.com/connot.html) Isn't that lovely. While on occasion, playing either a stereotype or and anti-stereotype is cool, why does it have to be either? An elven fighter for example is neither a stereotype nor an anti-stereotype and is so unusual, that nobody ever seems to think about it. What about a halfling wizard? Or maybe someone could think of something very rarely played, like a gnomish rogue or a dwarven monk. Why does it have to be an amalgamation of so many things that it looks more like a min-max munchkin build for the character to be unique?
Stormbrand 12-09-06, 01:04 PM	As for the LG half-ogre/half-red dragon with lots of silly classes, ban it. Simple, tell him it is not allowed. Or if you are the player, ask for an explanation of HOW it is all roleplay. Ask how many oversized magical fullblades will be found in the campaign.:P Level-dipping in more than one class is very rarely roleplay. Also mention the LA. Half-ogre/Half Red is +7 I think and the first four levels go to racial HD. I have played a demonic paladin, most fun character I have tried yet. This was because I developed him as more than a stereotype and made a point of including his fiendish blood in his personality - he hid the fact that he was a tiefling, but had some wonderfully devious and cunning moments. He also spoke in very harsh terms. 'Which would be easier? To step around you? Or to step over your broken corpse?' Say that with a dead flat voice. All I can say is if it has been done before, give it 3 twists. Suggest that to the others as well.
Adolph_Kheebler 12-09-06, 03:29 PM	Don't ban it. Don't tell them they can't do counter-stereotypes or you will have nothing left but the elf wizard, the human fighter, the half-orc barbarian, and the halfling rogue. If it is just for the reasons of preventing power gaming the simple solution is to make everyone give you a full and complete backstory that reflects their class choices, race and templates. If it is just because you don't like counter-stereotypes, that is your problem and people who don't play the stereotype add alot more fun and flavour to the game. If you play the stereotype there is only so much you can do with the character since it's all been done to death years ago by thousands of peolple. It gets old and boring to play and severely limits roleplaying.
TheAnthroDM 12-09-06, 05:11 PM	Counter-strereotypes... hmmm.... Tzzird LE High Elf Hexblade wielding a Large Greatsword.
theotherdraxen 12-09-06, 05:15 PM	Counter-strereotypes... hmmm.... Tzzird LE High Elf Hexblade wielding a Large Greatsword. Aside from the greatsword, this seems like a pretty archetypical choice for an elf.
Need_A_Life 12-09-06, 05:26 PM	Gnome Druid? Halfling Fighter? Half-orc Paladin? I haven't seen these combinations, and I don't expect to as they do not break the stereotype enough or adhere to the classical stereotype. Gnomes are supposed to be bards or sorcerers and I have only seen one exception to that rule; he was a meatshield (being the toughest in melee in the group). I am the only one who plays halflings in my group, so the second one is my fault... I'm just partial to sorcerers... The last one is just something that never crossed my mind before... It shall show up...
DesecrationAngel 12-09-06, 06:48 PM	I think he meant a counter-counter-stereotype to Drizzt, the whiny, emo-pansy dark elf we all know and loathe. About the demon paladin thing. That's occasionally understandable if there's that fiendish tendency and struggle to choke it back in the attempt to turn over a new leaf. But the thing that drives me insane is that many of the combinations done are so culturally improbable as well as downright cheesy. Like the demonic paladin might have redeemed and slowly finds that sense of self in abhorring his/her former path, but it's not a 2-minute journey and it isn't perfectly transcended without some bumps in the road. That's awesome if done correctly. But that itself is a roleplaying entree. Throw in a character with three race/template/bloodline foundations and 6 types of classes that don't thematically fit the scenario context, and it to me just tears apart the experience. While I know the game is a fantasy, and most importantly, a game; I would much appreciate a fluid suspension of disbelief that rides the themes of fantasy roleplay, rather than some husk of stats or aggravating combination chop-shops that leave a thorn in the side of the story. I like the idea of the alternate classes that are neither classical nor shunned. I'm not quite sure whether people sometimes make up crazy combinations for statistical purposes or just to be obnoxious and suck up tons of airtime. By the way, that tribal wild elf barbarian with the whirling rage is pretty awesome. Might actually want to give that a shot for a savage campaign i'm running. See, the stereotypes don't bother me, and the only reasons that counter-stereotypes bother me is because it's very rarely done tastefully, in moderation, or for the right reasons.
Rowan_Whispercloak 12-09-06, 08:59 PM	Would you consider this to be another of those counter-stereotypes done poorly. Tiefling rogue/fighter multiclass eventually going into paladin. Story behind said character is he was a light skirmisher in the army (reason to multiclass rogue and fighter) that ended up on the wrong side of a sacked villiage. After saving a small group of orphans (against his "better" judgement) he lead them to a temple farther from the border. Wounded, exhausted and questioning his own values he returns to his commanding officers to find that the war had ended and treaties have been signed. Basically I want the character to be one not look the part of the paladin, two to have a different type of background than a streotypical paladin and thirdly I like the idea of him coming to terms with his life before his "calling" and to roleplaying him trying not to go back to his self-serving ways.
Seghan 12-09-06, 10:03 PM	The problem is really more people using counterstereotypes as an excuse, rather than the counterstereotypes themselves. Like what Roman just wrote up, that sounds like it could be pretty darn cool if played right, it sounds like something right out of a novel. I'm not too much a counterstereotype sort of guy in the whole, but I have played evil characters. However, I played evil as a character who was willing to do what is necessary for his ends, which he sees as being the greater good. That is to say, he would not run around laying waste chaotic stupid style, but he would torture a captive or execute a villain if he felt he needed to. The point being, I guess, it's not counterstereotypes as a tool, but abuse of that tool. Also, I point out that all applies to a rp style of play like I enjoy. In the styles that encourage optimization as a game goal, this sort of "abuse" can be a valid tool itself.
theotherdraxen 12-09-06, 10:04 PM	@Rowan Whispercloak: My experience may be limited, but that sounds like a perfectly unique storyline. The tiefling paladin and rogue paladin are a little cliche, but your backstory justifies every aspect. BTW: have you looked into the scout? It gets skirmish damage and has bonus feats, many of which are good for combat. Perfect for a skirmisher-type character, and no fighter/rogue multi-class necessary. Might suit your concept better.
Fithero 12-09-06, 10:31 PM	What should I do? First of all... chill the **** out Secondly... I think he meant a counter-counter-stereotype to Drizzt, the whiny, emo-pansy dark elf we all know and loathe. Speak for you self, personally i find Drizzt to be an awsome character and as a whole, i only have one problem with that series (the amount of intelligent items) I mean seriously... out of all you 'Drizzt haters' out there... how many of you have actually read all the books about him? Don't ban it. Don't tell them they can't do counter-stereotypes or you will have nothing left but the elf wizard, the human fighter, the half-orc barbarian, and the halfling rogue. If it is just for the reasons of preventing power gaming the simple solution is to make everyone give you a full and complete backstory that reflects their class choices, race and templates. If it is just because you don't like counter-stereotypes, that is your problem and people who don't play the stereotype add alot more fun and flavour to the game. If you play the stereotype there is only so much you can do with the character since it's all been done to death years ago by thousands of peolple. It gets old and boring to play and severely limits roleplaying. I totally agree with Adolph_Kheebler here. If people stuck only to the norm, no matter how interesting their backgrounds were... things would get kinda dull. Characters who go against the grain (weither stat wise or background wise) add flavor to the game and make it memorable. It's alot easier to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven paladin who was trying to improve relations between the elves and dwarves, than it is to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven wizard who hated dwarves. I dont know about anybody else, but as long as there is a good background behind it, the players in my group are pretty accepting of any sort of character. And seriously DesecrationAngel, if anyone chucked a hissy fit like you did at the start of this thread, theyd probably be asked to leave the ground. Peace
aleshandre 12-09-06, 10:53 PM	First of all... chill the **** out First, you chill out. There's no need for four letter asterisks in the first place, so ease up. Secondly... Speak for you self, personally i find Drizzt to be an awsome character and as a whole, i only have one problem with that series (the amount of intelligent items) I mean seriously... out of all you 'Drizzt haters' out there... how many of you have actually read all the books about him? Does a person have to have read the books to know that too many people are trying to create pseudo-Drizzt characters, just because he's "cool" in the books? I personally think it's rediculous that so many people seem to think that they have to have a character based on one in a book or series of books, because they think they're cool. Really, be creative on your own instead of just copying someone else...which comes back to the original point of the thread. I totally agree with Adolph_Kheebler here. If people stuck only to the norm, no matter how interesting their backgrounds were... things would get kinda dull. You are right on this point. That's why background and personality are so important to a character regardless their class and race combination. Characters who go against the grain (weither stat wise or background wise) add flavor to the game and make it memorable. It's alot easier to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven paladin who was trying to improve relations between the elves and dwarves, than it is to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven wizard who hated dwarves. There is a point where you can go overboard. It's one thing if it's done with the intent to create a more colorful story. It's another if it creates problems with another player's experience. Even more so, when it's a obviously veiled attempt to munchkin just to have an uber-character. I dont know about anybody else, but as long as there is a good background behind it, the players in my group are pretty accepting of any sort of character. That is exactly the point that several people made. It has to have a good background otherwise it's just plain irresponsible of the GM to allow the character in the first place. And seriously DesecrationAngel, if anyone chucked a hissy fit like you did at the start of this thread, theyd probably be asked to leave the ground. Your little tirade put DA's "hissy fit" to shame. I mean seriously, dude, totally chill out. Peace Then you finish your rant against someone who's tired of munchkins pretending to be role players with this? Talk about hypocritical.
Reversefigure4 12-09-06, 11:43 PM	The easiest way to get stereotypes is to enforce them. Give each race one or two classes they are allowed to be, and nothing else. Elves must be wizards or rangers. Halflings must be rogues. Dwarves must be fighters. Makes for a horribly boring game, but hey. Of course, if you're just a player, you don't have any control over this. Best solution then is to make a stereotype character and show others they can have fun playing it. Make a memorable Dwarf Fighter for the team and enjoy it.
Karish 12-10-06, 02:13 AM	Some counter-stereotyping, as others have said, is good, but only when there isn't a whole party of them and you've done something reasonable for the game world as opposed to something that would HAVE to be the act opf a madman to become. For instance, I once played a role I found rather fun: half-fiend, CG warlock in an otherwise LG party. Not exactly an uber counter-steriotype with the warlock class, but I found it a bit of a challenge. His darker traits would come out in some places: A bit of a cruel streak and his finding fear to be a rather effective tool being models for this (Intimidation + Half Demon + Warlock = :D ), and also his warlock abilities and his appearance made for several interesting issues in the nature of the NPC reactions to him. And don't get me started on philisphical debates with the paladin. I nearly killed him once when he referred to me as "Just a fiend's unwanted child" (My character's mother was a succubus who had turned CG from a significant series of events played in a previous campaign by one of my friends, and had raised him lovingly. He had a bit of an "insult mom and you'll regret it" thing because of having to deal with it his entire childhood and being unable to stop people from harassing her.) I found it an effective and interesting character. I might remake it some time.
Fithero 12-10-06, 02:51 AM	First, you chill out. There's no need for four letter asterisks in the first place, so ease up. So you pull me up on putting in asterisks.... I have come to find, that if there is a single @#$%^&ingchance of some crazy race/class/alignment/level dip being possible, people are going to do it. when DesecrationAngel pretty much did the same thing... fair go. Your little tirade put DA's "hissy fit" to shame. I mean seriously, dude, totally chill out. Dude, it wasnt a tirade... you yourself even agreed with several of my points, which in itself shows that im calm enough to put forward a decent argument. Does a person have to have read the books to know that too many people are trying to create pseudo-Drizzt characters, just because he's "cool" in the books? If youve got a problem with this happening, take it up with the player. Dont just go round bagging a character that other people find interesting enough to base a character on. Then you finish your rant against someone who's tired of munchkins pretending to be role players with this? Talk about hypocritical. Whats wrong with people who play to get the best stats and treasure as possible? Nothing... its just a different way of going about things. Seriously dude, if you want to attack the argument i put forward, got for it... but dont attack me. My issue with his post, is that he just jumped up and started going off at people for the way they play the game. He could have said something along the lines of "i find it irrating when people copy characters and make min/maxed characters." Instead he started off yelling how other peoples playing styles were causing him to suffer a mental illness and defy the laws of gravity. So he starts the thread off with what id consider an aggressive post, i then (being arrgavated) replied in kind... then you aleshandre, come along and attack me. To stop this turning into a total flame war, im not going to post again. *****PEACE*****
Rowan_Whispercloak 12-10-06, 12:38 PM	@Rowan Whispercloak: My experience may be limited, but that sounds like a perfectly unique storyline. The tiefling paladin and rogue paladin are a little cliche, but your backstory justifies every aspect. BTW: have you looked into the scout? It gets skirmish damage and has bonus feats, many of which are good for combat. Perfect for a skirmisher-type character, and no fighter/rogue multi-class necessary. Might suit your concept better. I like the scout, but with this character the multiclassing is a little more appropriate, I see him more of a urban guttersnip that joined the army. So started out with rogue and multiclassed fighter to show his time spent in the military. I figured I would play him as a slightly cowardly character (pre-paladin levels) who up until that last battle normally didn't stick his neck out for anyone outside of his unit. He wasn't in the army out of patriotism or because he wanted to protect his villiage. He saw the army as a chance to get away from the familiy that viewed him as a dark stain and to make some money. Back on topic I think that all characters sterotype or countersterotype need to have something about them that make them memorable. Part of this can be gained through personality. Other parts of this can be demonstrated by the description of the characters actions and apperance. Another way to look at character is from the point of view that no one "in game" knows what's on class listing that character sheet. There are some exception but it would make some character harder to pin power what they are. Druids and Clerics of a nature deity are very similiar in that light. A cleric and a paladin that could be designed with the same concept and both would equally fit in to the "holy champion" of his/her church concept. But on a final note if you are tired of something that occurs in a game then if you are the DM reward the players for taking sterotypes with something. Maybe an extra feat that reinforces the streotype or something along that lines. As for evil character, most of the op describtion are taking evil to an extreme that I at least find to be too one sided. Even an evil murdering half-orc beserker, who like to eat elven children (with a nice orange sauce), might have a soft spot for puppies or love his mother/friends/family.
Adolph_Kheebler 12-11-06, 01:13 AM	First of all... chill the **** out Secondly... Speak for you self, personally i find Drizzt to be an awsome character and as a whole, i only have one problem with that series (the amount of intelligent items) I mean seriously... out of all you 'Drizzt haters' out there... how many of you have actually read all the books about him? I totally agree with Adolph_Kheebler here. If people stuck only to the norm, no matter how interesting their backgrounds were... things would get kinda dull. Characters who go against the grain (weither stat wise or background wise) add flavor to the game and make it memorable. It's alot easier to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven paladin who was trying to improve relations between the elves and dwarves, than it is to remember a game where you defeated the evil wizard with the elven wizard who hated dwarves. I dont know about anybody else, but as long as there is a good background behind it, the players in my group are pretty accepting of any sort of character. And seriously DesecrationAngel, if anyone chucked a hissy fit like you did at the start of this thread, theyd probably be asked to leave the ground. Peace Thanks. Good to know I have some support here. I mean I hate when it is just a multiclassing and powergaming for the sake of powergaming and absurdity, but my basic rule is that if you can properly justify it with a good backstory and then correctly play the character, more power too you. However if you're like one player I know (he doesn't even give his characters names let alone a good backstory) I tell you to play the stereotype or get out. If you can't roleplay, then you play a stereotype. If you can roleplay and write a good storyline, that's great. It just gets boring if all you have is stereotypes. I hate those games. I always love the wierd combos. For instance I'm playing an elf telepath who hates elves because he was exiled from Evermeet for daring to study psionics in the prominent magocracy of Evermeet. I thought it would be fun to play an elf who hates other elves since most of them are so arrogant and I've played several of those (as my handle shows). Sun Elves rock as psions even though elves almost never take psionics so I figured that works well. Not my most creative, but still fun. My personal favourite was my shade assassin who became a shade via a wish spell and thus was on the run from the Princes of Shade for daring to become a shade without their consent. As I said before: If you can roleplay it, more power to you.
CannibalSmith 12-12-06, 06:47 PM	The problem with Drizzt is that he's famous. You don't name your characters after known people, real or fictional, because that conjures up the wrong impression about them, even unintentionally, thus interfering with the gameplay. Likewise any two-weapon fighting elf character screams "I'm a Drizzt poser!". Same goes for wands of flame blade. Kpshzoom! ;) More then once have I thought "Hey, a low level campaign set in the towers of Arcanix would make for a fun game! No, wait... nooo, damn you, Rowling!"
Werrwaaa 12-12-06, 08:13 PM	I think the thing i agree with most is the obscene amount of dipping. One level here, two here, three here, another one over here, etc. Bleh! I can understand having a couple base classes or a couple PrCs. When i take multiple classes it usually fits some kind of image, such as two different Necromancer PrCs or two different Dual Wielding PrCs, etc. Oh, and Half-Orc Paladins rock you face off. Half-Orc Paragon for Rage? Game.
aleshandre 12-12-06, 08:55 PM	IMNSHO, obscene level dipping is for Modern, where you build the character concept with classes as much as your background, as opposed to D&D where your class and race largely determine the type of character you have rather than the other way around. Just another reason that Modern is so much better than D&D. Especially with Classically Modern around, which takes classic D&D classes and transforms them into Modern Advanced Classes. :D
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 12-13-06, 11:08 PM	It all really depends on how you define your character. I don't build my concept around any sort of sterotype. I define the character's personality and role(s) then figure out a race/class combination that accomplishes how that personality would go about those roles. That can lead to some pretty funky combinations, but it does usually jive pretty well. I guess I just feel that you should let other people play the way they like and make the experience what it needs to be for you. I enjoy the numbers side of it a lot, but I get bored when that's all there is to it. Conversely, if all I have is a good idea and no numbers to make it work, that's not much fun either. I'm very much a hybrid, I suppose. My wife loves the RP more than anything else. My friend's wife likes the numbers, doesn't really even pay attention if it's not her turn in combat. And we all just go with it, the game is, by and large, what you make of it.
Araciel 12-14-06, 05:37 AM	If it is just because you don't like counter-stereotypes, that is your problem and people who don't play the stereotype add alot more fun and flavour to the game. no, people who play well add a lot more fun and flavour to the game. a stereotype can be fun and original if the player has imagination enough to make that character a person, and add a lot to the game, regardless of being a krusk or regdar or whatever. when it gets to the point that people are afraid to play stereotypes for the sake of people censoring them, it's just as bad as saying 'don't play that half-red dragon minotaur vampire with a heart of gold' you can play endless combinations and characters with just one source book: the PHB. if you can't think up hundreds of separate, interesting characters with the base races, classes, skills, feats, equipment and spells, i just feel sorry for you.
GreyEagle 12-14-06, 02:33 PM	why cant you just restrict multiclassing to humans? And people, play the character because you like the character, not because of the class benefits. its a ROLE PLAYING GAME game, not fantasy freaking football. getting good numbers and crap isnt what makes it fun. for instance, a half dragon warlock. My only invocations are hideous blow, fell flight, flee the scene and voracious dispelling. My strength is 38. I dont worry about stereotypes or being different, i just want to play a warlock, and i want to kill things with my big hammer.
The_Apathetic_Despot 12-16-06, 05:08 AM	its a ROLE PLAYING GAME game, not fantasy freaking football. getting good numbers and crap isnt what makes it fun. I'm going to have to stop you right there, GreyEagle, because while you've hit the nail on the head with your analysis, your conclusion is all wrong. I couldn't agree with you more when you say that D&D is a role playing game, but that means that D&D is inherently of two facets: Role Playing and Game. D&D is not chess, neither is it theater, it is an amalgum of the two, and neither aspect is better than the other, nor is focusing on either one of them the "wrong" way to play. If you want to focus on the roleplaying aspects to the exclusion of the mechanical aspects, thats great, enjoy yourself! But don't forget that the two aspects are not in conflict, a chessmaster and an actor can both enjoy the same game for different reasons, and neither is wrong.
aleshandre 12-16-06, 08:55 AM	TAD has hit the nail on the head. I have yet to come up with a character that isn't in one way or another absolutely a force to be reckoned with (including combat ability), but a large part of that is how I play the character as much as the stats. In D&D I play primarily paladins, because I relate best to that type of character, but in Modern, I play all kinds of combinations depending on what I want to accomplish with the character. I tend to use all of the characters' abilities to my best advantage, using their strengths to offset their weaknesses...a technique I've practiced IRL for as long as I can remember. For example, I have a character right now in Modern, who's Fast/Smart and has all the prereqs right now to take his next level in either Gunslinger or Techie and I intend to take both over the course of the adventure. Is he absolutely optimized? No, but he is deadly with Burstfire and his Demolitions skill.
MagnaSecuris 12-17-06, 12:17 AM	Powergaming issues aside, The problem isn't "people going against the grain". There's nothing wrong with playing stereotypes, or not playing stereotypes. It is certainly not stereotypical to play an elf gladiator (whatever class you use to represent this). But, unlike many non-stereotypes out there, elf gladiator doesn't go against everything elfy. Playing a half-orc paladin isn't so counter-sterotypical as to be stupid. The problem is playing against stereotype just to play against stereotype. Half-demons who are paladins are wierd. Especially if they were raised by their demon parent. It stinks of the player wanting to be more special. The player wants to break the basic ideas of the game, so that his character is the most important one in the party. In this case he is saying that my half-demon isn't a bad guy, he's a really, really good guy. The same with elf barbarians (not whirling variant) who have tragic pasts. Or half-orc scholar wizards who grew up in an uncaring human world. DnD is just as much about playing as a team as it is playing an interesting character. If your character's history reads like something from a novel, then you probably want whatever adventure you're in to be about your character and/or his history. That party of five lone-wolf, brooding, selfish, apathetic, snobby, out-for-themselves characters is a party of players who want the story to be all about them. If you want the story to be all about your character, write a book about him. Or a short story if you've a short attention span. DON'T bring it to the game table.
Griff 12-18-06, 11:29 AM	You know the usuall sterotypes are there because they make more effective whatevers. Dwarves make better fighters then they do sorcerers because they're tough as nails. and thats their favoured Class... Half-orcs make better Mellee focused characters then scholars. Halflings make very fine rogues... (and wizards and dread necromancers strangly enough) and suffer when trying to compete in mellee with the big 'alf-orc... If my entire Character concept is based around a gifted and driven farmkid who got a scholarship to a wizards college, and knows he needs to be the best possible wizard he can be so one day he can bring his family back over the poverty line... but doesnt want to stray from the Knights code his grandfather was teaching him when he was young... Could i be forgiven for making a Barbarian/Wizard/Spellsword/Abjurant Champion/Eldrich Knight? but wait! i said knights code how can i be a barbarian! barbarian wizard! thats an anti-sterotype Maybe his "rage" is a sudden boost of arcane power he has learned how to call on... Maybe the fast movement came from a harsh physical regime he puts himself through every morning before work/study but ive taken a bunch or PrC's! how can you identify as an abdjarant champion AND a spellsword AND an Eldrich Knight. simple I dont. I'm a member of any one of those, or none... or a completly different organisation. And yeah, if you can call powergaming a crime, im guilty as sin. truth be told ive even changed the names of things on my character sheet... yes boys and girls ive had my Cleric using a "warhammer" when im going off the stats for a Mace... and ive brutalised the elf subraces horribly. yep i had a drow with wild elf stats once. and i even had a "sorcerer" who was really a wizard but dont tell anyone. Play the Character because you like the character, and if you result in some "uber-character" and are having with your group fun full credit to you. May your Paladins be LG ftr/knights and your ninja's be Rogues and your Samurai be Fighters and your swashbuckler pirate dwarf be a swashbuckler3/ftr2/Ranger2 if you think your character concept would be better off taking a dip here and there go bezerk. because Clerics or Obhad Hai can be druids too!