Is this character possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this character possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maurice
09-06-06, 10:44 AM Me and my friends are going to be picking up D&D again, so I have been wondering about a character to play.

I decided to go for an unusual combo, a Rogue / Paladin multiclass. Now, according to the rules once my character becomes a Rogue, he can no longer advance in the Paladin class, so I will have to get a few levels in that class before I switch to the Rogue class (yes, a Lawful Good Rogue :D ).

In rough, general lines, his background is that he wants to do good, punish the bad, so he initially became Paladin. But after a while (few Paladin levels), he realises he finds the rather strict rules and regulations of a Paladin order to be more of a hindrance than a benefit. Somewhat desillusioned, he turns away from the "true" Paladin way, to take up the Rogue class. Within that role, he does stick to the law and helps those in need and all (no alignment change, he remains Lawful Good), and seeks out those that do evil to punish them for their deeds - but at the boundaries of the law, at the border of whatever actions are still lawfully acceptable, flexible. Generally speaking, he feels that rules, laws and regulations should be put in place to bring structure to society but ultimately the society makes those rules, laws and regulations and (temporary) adaptations are acceptable when circumstances ask for them. He feels that rules that shift away from Lawful Good due to circumstances should be discarded or changed to serve society.

Long story, but the question is whether (and under what conditions) he can still use the Paladin class abilities, even when he can no longer advance there due to his Rogue class? Ideally, once he takes up the Rogue class, he would be on his own, not connected to any Paladin order in particular. Is this possible under the 3.0 / 3.5 rules?
Alakar
09-06-06, 11:30 AM You might want to look into the shadowbane inquisitor from complete adventurer. I don't think that helps with the being on his own thing, but from the machanics side, it meshes the two classes well.
Nelyo
09-06-06, 01:19 PM As long as you remain Lawful Good and don't violate the Paladin's Code, it doesn't matter whether or not you can continue advancing the Paladin class, you keep all the abilities. And being on his own shouldn't be a problem, because it isn't explicitly required for Paladins to belong to orders in the first place; it's perfectly acceptable to be a lone Paladin.

Now, because it's bound to come up sooner or later, your skills would be much better if your first level was Rogue. It's up to you whether or not you want to change your background to accomodate that. You could be a Rogue who received the call to be a Paladin, and joined a Paladin's order because it seemed like the thing to do, but soon began to chafe under the extra restrictions and slipped back into your old methods.

If you take the Devoted Inquisitor feat from CV, you can freely multiclass between Paladin and Rogue, and get the ability to daze someone if you use smite evil to deliver a sneak attack.

Shadowbane Inquisitor, like Alakar said, could also be a good choice from a mechanical standpoint, as it also gets you past the Paladin multiclassing restrictions and gives many good abilities. That said, the flavor for the PrC given in the Complete Adventurer does call for membership in a organization, so talk to your DM and see if you can alter the flavor to fit your more solitary character.
Galamere
09-06-06, 03:08 PM You could also choose to go the other path with your leveling and be a redeemed rogue, or perhaps you have been a spy for your church and after a long life of serving this way they reward you with knighthood. As Nelyo said so long as you adhere to the alignment and in all likelihood the code of conduct for a pally then there is no reason you should not be able to keep those skills, you are just forbidden from taking more pally levels (unless your DM rules otherwise, personally I never liked that rule, at least in conjunction with fighter/cleric multi paladins) The only potential problem I can see is sneak attacks are not very paladin like (in my mind) but if you have good story/rational as to why he would do it, or perhaps he will only use those strikes under special circumstances, like the true enemies of his faith or the like.

As someone pointed out in the optimization boards any character is possible, you could even play a sandwich if you wanted. ^_^
BobSutan
09-06-06, 04:15 PM If you take the Devoted Inquisitor feat from CV...

What the heck is CV? :confused:
Alakar
09-06-06, 04:38 PM What the heck is CV? :confused:

CV=Complete Adventurer.

Also, if your Dm allows it, there is a Chaotic Good paladin variant in unearthed arcana called the paladin of freedom. That would allow to use your sneak attacks, and not feel bad about it. :)
Maurice
09-06-06, 06:06 PM Thanks, this is useful info.

My main concern is (or was ;) ) mainly the fact that a Paladin could be on his own. Adhering to a deity, keeping to the general Code of Conduct for Paladins and following the requirements of the Lawful Good alignment, but yet not attached to any Paladin order and thereby being free of their specific rigid codes and rules and all.

I checked out some of the books I have, in particular Song and Silence. The Vigilante prestige class actually comes close to what I have in mind, with the exception that I want the Lawful Good aspect to be more readily apparent - hence the Paladin levels.

There's a good point with the Sneak Attacks, I had not yet thought of that. While I do want him to act covertly (the Rogue aspect) at times, to sneak around, to gather information, etc ... he will not be stealing or backstabbing, or hurting harmless opponents.

Regarding poisons I thought of an interesting aspect: while he will most definately not ever use poisons that are lethal or permanently damaging, I do wonder about stunning / incapacitating poisons. If the application of such a stunning poison prevents damage to him, to his enemy, to (innocent) bystanders, would the use of that actually go against the Paladin Code of Conduct? Essentially, it's no different from the Hold Person spell, which also incapacitates the victim, without damaging him.
Reversefigure4
09-07-06, 01:05 AM There's a good point with the Sneak Attacks, I had not yet thought of that. While I do want him to act covertly (the Rogue aspect) at times, to sneak around, to gather information, etc ... he will not be stealing or backstabbing, or hurting harmless opponents.

Sneak Attack is easy. He simply knows how to fight precisely and lethally. Rather than swinging with sheer brute force, he knows the best way to use a longsword is to slash across the throat rather than the chest, and that the best time to do it is when the Fighter is on the other side of his foe providing a distraction. Nothing sneaky or backstabbing about it... merely good fighting technique.
BobSutan
09-07-06, 07:05 AM CV=Complete Adventurer.

Also, if your Dm allows it, there is a Chaotic Good paladin variant in unearthed arcana called the paladin of freedom. That would allow to use your sneak attacks, and not feel bad about it. :)

That's a new one on me. For future reference, everyone else abbreviates it as CAdv.
The_Shaman
09-07-06, 10:37 AM In Complete warrior (I believe) there was a feat that created a synergy between rogue and paladin abilities, and allowed multiclassing freely. If there isn't - make it. A paladin/rogue sounds no less weird than a paladin/bard, and they had that.

Oops... Complete Adventurer, actually. See the feat "Devoted Inquisitor," p. 107
BobSutan
09-07-06, 03:41 PM In Complete warrior (I believe) there was a feat that created a synergy between rogue and paladin abilities, and allowed multiclassing freely. If there isn't - make it. A paladin/rogue sounds no less weird than a paladin/bard, and they had that.

Oops... Complete Adventurer, actually. See the feat "Devoted Inquisitor," p. 107

Isn't that the one that allows you to use a Paladin's smite ability to daze a character during a sneak attack? Its a cool little feat, even without the freely multiclassing thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maurice 09-06-06, 10:44 AM	Me and my friends are going to be picking up D&D again, so I have been wondering about a character to play. I decided to go for an unusual combo, a Rogue / Paladin multiclass. Now, according to the rules once my character becomes a Rogue, he can no longer advance in the Paladin class, so I will have to get a few levels in that class before I switch to the Rogue class (yes, a Lawful Good Rogue :D ). In rough, general lines, his background is that he wants to do good, punish the bad, so he initially became Paladin. But after a while (few Paladin levels), he realises he finds the rather strict rules and regulations of a Paladin order to be more of a hindrance than a benefit. Somewhat desillusioned, he turns away from the "true" Paladin way, to take up the Rogue class. Within that role, he does stick to the law and helps those in need and all (no alignment change, he remains Lawful Good), and seeks out those that do evil to punish them for their deeds - but at the boundaries of the law, at the border of whatever actions are still lawfully acceptable, flexible. Generally speaking, he feels that rules, laws and regulations should be put in place to bring structure to society but ultimately the society makes those rules, laws and regulations and (temporary) adaptations are acceptable when circumstances ask for them. He feels that rules that shift away from Lawful Good due to circumstances should be discarded or changed to serve society. Long story, but the question is whether (and under what conditions) he can still use the Paladin class abilities, even when he can no longer advance there due to his Rogue class? Ideally, once he takes up the Rogue class, he would be on his own, not connected to any Paladin order in particular. Is this possible under the 3.0 / 3.5 rules?
Alakar 09-06-06, 11:30 AM	You might want to look into the shadowbane inquisitor from complete adventurer. I don't think that helps with the being on his own thing, but from the machanics side, it meshes the two classes well.
Nelyo 09-06-06, 01:19 PM	As long as you remain Lawful Good and don't violate the Paladin's Code, it doesn't matter whether or not you can continue advancing the Paladin class, you keep all the abilities. And being on his own shouldn't be a problem, because it isn't explicitly required for Paladins to belong to orders in the first place; it's perfectly acceptable to be a lone Paladin. Now, because it's bound to come up sooner or later, your skills would be much better if your first level was Rogue. It's up to you whether or not you want to change your background to accomodate that. You could be a Rogue who received the call to be a Paladin, and joined a Paladin's order because it seemed like the thing to do, but soon began to chafe under the extra restrictions and slipped back into your old methods. If you take the Devoted Inquisitor feat from CV, you can freely multiclass between Paladin and Rogue, and get the ability to daze someone if you use smite evil to deliver a sneak attack. Shadowbane Inquisitor, like Alakar said, could also be a good choice from a mechanical standpoint, as it also gets you past the Paladin multiclassing restrictions and gives many good abilities. That said, the flavor for the PrC given in the Complete Adventurer does call for membership in a organization, so talk to your DM and see if you can alter the flavor to fit your more solitary character.
Galamere 09-06-06, 03:08 PM	You could also choose to go the other path with your leveling and be a redeemed rogue, or perhaps you have been a spy for your church and after a long life of serving this way they reward you with knighthood. As Nelyo said so long as you adhere to the alignment and in all likelihood the code of conduct for a pally then there is no reason you should not be able to keep those skills, you are just forbidden from taking more pally levels (unless your DM rules otherwise, personally I never liked that rule, at least in conjunction with fighter/cleric multi paladins) The only potential problem I can see is sneak attacks are not very paladin like (in my mind) but if you have good story/rational as to why he would do it, or perhaps he will only use those strikes under special circumstances, like the true enemies of his faith or the like. As someone pointed out in the optimization boards any character is possible, you could even play a sandwich if you wanted. ^_^
BobSutan 09-06-06, 04:15 PM	If you take the Devoted Inquisitor feat from CV... What the heck is CV? :confused:
Alakar 09-06-06, 04:38 PM	What the heck is CV? :confused: CV=Complete Adventurer. Also, if your Dm allows it, there is a Chaotic Good paladin variant in unearthed arcana called the paladin of freedom. That would allow to use your sneak attacks, and not feel bad about it. :)
Maurice 09-06-06, 06:06 PM	Thanks, this is useful info. My main concern is (or was ;) ) mainly the fact that a Paladin could be on his own. Adhering to a deity, keeping to the general Code of Conduct for Paladins and following the requirements of the Lawful Good alignment, but yet not attached to any Paladin order and thereby being free of their specific rigid codes and rules and all. I checked out some of the books I have, in particular Song and Silence. The Vigilante prestige class actually comes close to what I have in mind, with the exception that I want the Lawful Good aspect to be more readily apparent - hence the Paladin levels. There's a good point with the Sneak Attacks, I had not yet thought of that. While I do want him to act covertly (the Rogue aspect) at times, to sneak around, to gather information, etc ... he will not be stealing or backstabbing, or hurting harmless opponents. Regarding poisons I thought of an interesting aspect: while he will most definately not ever use poisons that are lethal or permanently damaging, I do wonder about stunning / incapacitating poisons. If the application of such a stunning poison prevents damage to him, to his enemy, to (innocent) bystanders, would the use of that actually go against the Paladin Code of Conduct? Essentially, it's no different from the Hold Person spell, which also incapacitates the victim, without damaging him.
Reversefigure4 09-07-06, 01:05 AM	There's a good point with the Sneak Attacks, I had not yet thought of that. While I do want him to act covertly (the Rogue aspect) at times, to sneak around, to gather information, etc ... he will not be stealing or backstabbing, or hurting harmless opponents. Sneak Attack is easy. He simply knows how to fight precisely and lethally. Rather than swinging with sheer brute force, he knows the best way to use a longsword is to slash across the throat rather than the chest, and that the best time to do it is when the Fighter is on the other side of his foe providing a distraction. Nothing sneaky or backstabbing about it... merely good fighting technique.
BobSutan 09-07-06, 07:05 AM	CV=Complete Adventurer. Also, if your Dm allows it, there is a Chaotic Good paladin variant in unearthed arcana called the paladin of freedom. That would allow to use your sneak attacks, and not feel bad about it. :) That's a new one on me. For future reference, everyone else abbreviates it as CAdv.
The_Shaman 09-07-06, 10:37 AM	In Complete warrior (I believe) there was a feat that created a synergy between rogue and paladin abilities, and allowed multiclassing freely. If there isn't - make it. A paladin/rogue sounds no less weird than a paladin/bard, and they had that. Oops... Complete Adventurer, actually. See the feat "Devoted Inquisitor," p. 107
BobSutan 09-07-06, 03:41 PM	In Complete warrior (I believe) there was a feat that created a synergy between rogue and paladin abilities, and allowed multiclassing freely. If there isn't - make it. A paladin/rogue sounds no less weird than a paladin/bard, and they had that. Oops... Complete Adventurer, actually. See the feat "Devoted Inquisitor," p. 107 Isn't that the one that allows you to use a Paladin's smite ability to daze a character during a sneak attack? Its a cool little feat, even without the freely multiclassing thing.