just how ugly is cha 8? [Archive] - Wizards Community

just how ugly is cha 8? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maleous
09-06-03, 09:11 AM Hi,

Title says it all...
Zarffyn
09-06-03, 10:47 AM Charisma does not *necessarily* depict how good-looking a PC is. Generally speaking, the higher the charisma, the better looking you are. But charisma is more about how others react towards the PC, than their actual appearance.

That being said, it is more likely that an NPC will react more favorably if you're hot. ;)

So what Cha 8 means to you depends on the character's personality. If you're creating a character with a optimistic, enjoying, perhaps humorous personality, then he should probably be ugly, OR a distiguishing mark that sets him apart (obvious ugly scar, oddly colored eyes or one eye color different than the other, etc.).

But if your PC is annoying, a jerk, extremely pessimistic, etc., then chances are you won't have to work hard to make other shy away or even dislike you, and that fairly covers a low charisma well. A negative personality combined with one of the above appearance "flaws" (depending on your point of view) should work very well to describe what you need.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
09-06-03, 11:41 AM A cha 8 person could be Miss Universe, but have a bad personality, glazed look, slurred speech, etc.

Or, a Cha 8 could be the stereotypical slightly deformed person.
Morka
09-06-03, 01:24 PM My conception of the charisma is the self-confidence a character can have. That's why a sorceror get more spells if he has a high charisma, he knows what is inside him.

Actually, I think a beautiful girl is more a character with high constitution (she look perfect) and high dexterity (she moves in mysterious waves... U2). Of course, if she has a low charisma (i.e. low self-confidence), she will never wear revealing clothes (what a waste!)

I'm always confused about the effect of a scar. On a barbarian, it could raise his self-confidence, because he got it in some battle. On a mondain character, it could lower his self confidence, because it only disfigure him. (Adon in the Time of Troubles...)

My 2 stinger (silver pieces).
Lhiannon Sidhe
09-06-03, 11:37 PM A cha 8 person could be Miss Universe, but have a bad personality

Stereotypical spoiled princess :P
SputnikCorp
09-06-03, 11:51 PM i don't use charisma as a stat for physical apperance, i use the general picture of the monster described or the pc to say whether or not his pc is attractive or not. a charisma of 8 would mean a timid wallflower. a mousy little waif or a quiet to the point of painful man.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
09-07-03, 12:26 AM Originally posted by Lhiannon Sidhe
Stereotypical spoiled princess :P

That's so true, and yet it's meant as a joke.
The Eight-headed
09-07-03, 04:07 AM As said before, it does not interfere directly in appearance (of course, at least if you want it).

As an example, I play with a Cha-8 halfling Rogue/Ranger, who is not that ugly (well, not that pretty either, what would mean an average Cha of 10 or 11), but he is so *****y the whole time (the kind of person who apparently likes being ****** off all day around :P and don't have see any meaning on being pleasant to anyone - even his fellow partners), that he deserved no extra points at Cha in the PB process (not that I made it to leave more points in the rest of the attributes, I just wanted to roleplay a character like this :)).

Of course, if you still want to credit the low Charisma score to your character's appearance, try thinking on someone who is a bit below average (some scars, some minor defficiency or something like it), but far from Slaugth, from The Goonies. :P

And remember that appearance will always be a matter of oppinion. I would exemplify Benicio Del Toro as a Cha-8 person, but I already heard some people who said he is exquisite and/or hot. I, myself, prefer much more a Keira Knigthley (THIS is some appearance-applied Charisma!) :D
Leap
09-08-03, 03:56 AM Charisma is a measure of how authoritative a communicator you are, so looks play very little part in it (I seem to remember Ghouls are cha 15, so that kinda blows the “beauty” issue out the window.

For low charisma think: uncommunicative – check out the Bullette and such creatures with charisma around 4s and 5s. These ones just make no attempt to communicate.

For mid charisma think: unconvincing communicator – maybe they whine a lot, or their body language is bad, or perhaps their intonation does not carry confidence…there are lots of ways it can be expressed. Think of the ‘parents’ who have no respect from, or control over, their kids. Occasionally someone takes notice of them, but not very often.

For high charisma think: authoritative and convincing communicator – the teachers you always respected at school, the person everyone goes to for advice.

Ok so some of you may be going “but mid charisma is not like that”, but when you think 10 str is the average str of an industrialised world (where physical labour is a minority event!) rather than an accurate picture of average str in the medieval setting DnD is based on, then you get to thinking maybe 10/11/12 cha aint so hot afterall……………… A 10 cha person is about as “communicatively impressive” as a 10 str person is “muscularly impressive”…..ie: not very at all!
Tzor
09-08-03, 11:53 AM Invert the question. How beautiful is cha 8? A classic example is the silent movie actress who when first auditioned for "talkies" had the most obnoxious whiney voice. As long as she kept her mouth shut she was ideal, but once she opened her mouth she was totally horrid.

Normally beauty does play a factor in charisma. But in effect all it takes for a low charisma is to have one exceptional low attribute that overcomes all other attribute. One could have a bad speaking voice, one could have rude and obnoxious habits.

Many highly charismatic people were in fact downright ugly. Benjamin Franklyn, for example, refused to wear a wig, wore furs (not the kind you find in expensive stores) and basically voilated every rule he wrote as "Poor Richard." But he was beloved in France. He had wit.

George Washington, was tall and impressive. In his eight years as president, "The General" was beloved by all. And yet in his eight years he never really did make major speaches or make any significant policies. He knew his limitations and avoided them.

This is why charisma cannot be easily represented as either "he's ugly" or "his voice is nasally." It is a complex attribute and as a result it allows a lot of freedom in how you play it. There are many ways to be unpopular and ignored, and you can even combine them all!
Meloncov
09-08-03, 12:24 PM A better example is Lincoln. He was highly charematic, but proably the ugliest president ever.
Barrid
09-08-03, 04:33 PM I always just toss an additional 3d6 and use that as my "comeliness" stat since charisma is personality and will etc. Also, when it comes to ability scores, remember that 10 is average human in EVERYTHING. These stats are seemingly exponential in nature (ie there's less distance between a 15 and 16 than a 19 and 20.) Take a look a STR for example. Your average human's max heavy load is 100 lbs. A person with 8 STR's max heavy load is 80 lbs. A difference of 20 lbs. Whereas, say the difference between 18 (300 lbs) and 20 (400 lbs) is a whole 100 lbs. This just leads me to believe that while 8 has a negative modifier, its a lot closer to average than than people give it credit.

As for the question at hand. I generally treat a -1 modifier as having 1-2 things "wrong" with the ability. For Charisma your average human should have basic force of personality. Mild or just....well....average. True Neutral if you will. A person with an 8 CHA coul be more brash and brassy than normal. He could be more meek than normal. That would be 1 difference and good enough for me. He could just have a quirk like a slight odor, bad teeth or something slighlty physical that interferes with his presense as a person. Or he qould have a mental quirk like the tendancy to get glassy-eyed when not speaking about himself/herself. Something minor mind you. This character doesn't all the sudden have ADD.

Just make something about your character's presense slighlty off-putting. That's the best way I can describe it. Something minor that interferes with the way your character exerts his/her will upon others, be it positively or negatively. Positive as in making an effort to charm a person and negative as in cowing someone.

Hope this helps.
MrNiceGuy
09-08-03, 04:44 PM Originally posted by Maleous
Hi,

Title says it all...

Fran Drescher (at least as The Nannie) - real hottie, but as soon as she opens her mouth, you just want to cram your fist (or some other appendage) in it.

Mariah Carey has the same effect on me - that New Jersey disco-queen voice is just nails on a chalk-board to me, no matter how good she looks.

Paul
Barrid
09-08-03, 06:19 PM I just find that hilarious coming from a guy with your handle.
Illithid Tentacles
09-08-03, 06:34 PM As has been mentioned, Chasima has no bearing whatsoever on appearance.

For a slightly below average Charisma (8 or 9), think of somebody who's just a little bit annoying. Like somebody who fidgets or stands just a little bit closer to you than you're comfortable with (those are bad examples, but you get the idea).
PhaedrusXY
09-08-03, 08:34 PM Yeah, as has already been stated, Cha 8 isn't that much lower than human average Cha 10. So a personality quirk that is annoying or a particularly unfriendly appearance (think Strider in the first LotR book/movie) would be appropriate. Cha 8 doesn't mean your a hunchbacked troglodyte with bad breath and Turett's syndrome. :behold: That would be Cha 3 or worse.
Cli' San Aquanova
09-08-03, 10:50 PM How ugly is Cha 8? Mialee ugly....... the horror....... the horror...

And BTW, Charisma is physical attractiveness; if you don't take my word, then look under Charisma in the PHB.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother
09-09-03, 02:57 AM Yeah, Charisma affects physical attractiveness, but other things as well. Faeries most often have high Charisma because of their looks, and perfmormance abilities, and various other things. I sometimes wonder how your perception and senses comes from Wisdom. Wise people aren't always able to hear better than people who are less wise. But, that's the game. And a great game, at that.
Leap
09-09-03, 03:25 AM Two Rivers -

To digress a moment, wisdom is about paying attention to what is going on more than simply 'keen senses'. You may have cyber/magically inhanced senses but not the wisdom to actually pay attention.....and that is what makes the difference.
Joseph Amarillo
09-09-03, 05:28 AM I remember a time when I was explaining the Spot and Listen skills to a newbie. I told him that both skills do not affect how good your eyes or ears are; they affect how well you can recognize what you see or hear.

Thus, a character with Listen +20 is not necessarily Daredevil. He/she just knows how to listen well. Remember that HEARING is different from LISTENING.

On the other hand, I'm thinking of running a campaign where your physical appearance is based on your physical ability scores. Thus, a STR 18 character would appears really strong and bulky, a DEX 18 character would appear very graceful, and a CON 18... Well...

But it's just a game... Not real life.
Leap
09-09-03, 08:04 AM Continuing the thread rot..... :)

When looking at low wisdom think "small child"...... Billy is 3, he wants an ice-cream, knows that the ice-cream van across the road gives out ice-creams and so runs across the road to get one.

Billy, being young, has low wisdom, meaning he does not pay attention to wider things and has no contextualising knowledge letting him know how he fits into the world nor indeed how the world fits together.

Not only is he forgetting that Mum is required to get ice-creams, he is possibly running out in front of a car (because he is not paying attention to his wider surroundings) and even fails to consider the need for money to buy said ice cream. All he thinks of is "Ice-cream! Yum! Billy want! Billy go get!"

The least harmful possibility here is that he actually has 50p in his pocket for an ice-cream, but cannot reach the driver or communicate his needs.

The harmful possibility is that he has no money and so when he asks for an ice-cream is turned down flat and proceeds to "through a wobbly".

The most harmful possibility is that in running accross the road he gets hit by a passing motorist and dies beneath the wheels of a passing car.

Wisdom is sense as well as senses. It is the ability to percieve and understand your environment.
Barrid
09-09-03, 02:10 PM That physical attractiveness part is kind of just tacked on there at the end because there was nowhere else to put it. I don't remember if Comeliness was core in 2e or from Skills and Powers but it was a stat and quite separate from Charisma. It's just that Charisma did nothing so I think the two got merged to make it less of a dump stat. It did no good because people just assumed their character was "hot" even if their CHA was 5.

I still say roll your own attractiveness stat and forget CHA as looks. Because it's in-game usage has little do with appearance anyways.
MrNiceGuy
09-09-03, 05:00 PM Originally posted by Barrid
That physical attractiveness part is kind of just tacked on there at the end because there was nowhere else to put it. I don't remember if Comeliness was core in 2e or from Skills and Powers but it was a stat and quite separate from Charisma. It's just that Charisma did nothing so I think the two got merged to make it less of a dump stat. It did no good because people just assumed their character was "hot" even if their CHA was 5.

I still say roll your own attractiveness stat and forget CHA as looks. Because it's in-game usage has little do with appearance anyways.

Actually Comeliness first appeared in Dragon magazine and was then codified as an official optional rule in Unearthed Arcana for 1st ed. OAD&D... Interestingly enough, in the original DMG, the note about Charisma specifically states that it is not a reflection of physical attractivness, giving Hitler as an example of a person w/ an 18 Charisma.

Paul
Barrid
09-10-03, 12:40 AM I knew it came from somewhere odd. I never got Unearthed Arcana but I did take a look at it a few times. It just makes more sense because its the actual definition of Charisma.
pyk
09-12-03, 11:05 AM Here's an example of how Charisma affects the comlieness aspect:

Mick Jagger

Ugly as hell, but high charisma, so there's a ton of chicks thinks he's the hottest thing around.

And I bet there were lots of women thought Hitler was a cutie, too.
MrNiceGuy
09-12-03, 12:48 PM Originally posted by pyk
And I bet there were lots of women thought Hitler was a cutie, too.

*snickers, remembering a certain scene from Europa Europa!*

Paul
Barrid
09-12-03, 03:57 PM Pyk. All you just said is that force of personality makes them desirable. It did nothing to change their looks, which is comeliness. (Being a rock star or the leader of an entire country had absolutely nothing to do with it...:rolleyes: )

My mom finds Dennis Franz attractive. Does she find his dumpy, balding physique sexy? No. She likes him because he's a gruff, but loveable teddy bear. Charisma and Comeliness can go hand-in-hand to make a person MORE or LESS desirable, likable, etc. But there's no synergy bonus between the two. Being likeable doesn't make you less a hag (see Disney's Hunchback) but also being unlikeable doesn't make you less a hottie (insert stuck up prom queen here).
Maleous
09-15-03, 06:41 AM Thanks everyone.

Actually my character did recently pick up some scars "in visible places" as the description went so maybe I'll just say that accounts for his cha 8.

ohh. and the guys insists everyone call him scram....

Why?

Becuase as a young gnome he didn't posses the social wiles to realise it was an insult htey where hurling at him, not a new nickname.
MrNiceGuy
09-15-03, 09:23 AM Originally posted by Maleous
ohh. and the guys insists everyone call him scram....

Why?

Becuase as a young gnome he didn't posses the social wiles to realise it was an insult htey where hurling at him, not a new nickname.

"All right - last name: Baldric... Baldric, what's your first name?"

"Sot-off"

"What!?!?!"

"Well when I was just a little turnip, I'd go up to try to play with the neighborhood kids; I'd say 'Hi my name's Baldric,' and they'd say "We know; Sot-off Baldric."

"Ok, we'll put S. Baldric!"

Paul
Poukis
09-16-03, 06:11 PM Low charisma may also mean that the character isn't active, he doesn't speak much, he's shy or bad tempered... Just check the section under the races with a -2 on charisma to get some examples...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maleous 09-06-03, 09:11 AM	Hi, Title says it all...
Zarffyn 09-06-03, 10:47 AM	Charisma does not necessarily depict how good-looking a PC is. Generally speaking, the higher the charisma, the better looking you are. But charisma is more about how others react towards the PC, than their actual appearance. That being said, it is more likely that an NPC will react more favorably if you're hot. ;) So what Cha 8 means to you depends on the character's personality. If you're creating a character with a optimistic, enjoying, perhaps humorous personality, then he should probably be ugly, OR a distiguishing mark that sets him apart (obvious ugly scar, oddly colored eyes or one eye color different than the other, etc.). But if your PC is annoying, a jerk, extremely pessimistic, etc., then chances are you won't have to work hard to make other shy away or even dislike you, and that fairly covers a low charisma well. A negative personality combined with one of the above appearance "flaws" (depending on your point of view) should work very well to describe what you need.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 09-06-03, 11:41 AM	A cha 8 person could be Miss Universe, but have a bad personality, glazed look, slurred speech, etc. Or, a Cha 8 could be the stereotypical slightly deformed person.
Morka 09-06-03, 01:24 PM	My conception of the charisma is the self-confidence a character can have. That's why a sorceror get more spells if he has a high charisma, he knows what is inside him. Actually, I think a beautiful girl is more a character with high constitution (she look perfect) and high dexterity (she moves in mysterious waves... U2). Of course, if she has a low charisma (i.e. low self-confidence), she will never wear revealing clothes (what a waste!) I'm always confused about the effect of a scar. On a barbarian, it could raise his self-confidence, because he got it in some battle. On a mondain character, it could lower his self confidence, because it only disfigure him. (Adon in the Time of Troubles...) My 2 stinger (silver pieces).
Lhiannon Sidhe 09-06-03, 11:37 PM	A cha 8 person could be Miss Universe, but have a bad personality Stereotypical spoiled princess :P
SputnikCorp 09-06-03, 11:51 PM	i don't use charisma as a stat for physical apperance, i use the general picture of the monster described or the pc to say whether or not his pc is attractive or not. a charisma of 8 would mean a timid wallflower. a mousy little waif or a quiet to the point of painful man.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 09-07-03, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by Lhiannon Sidhe Stereotypical spoiled princess :P That's so true, and yet it's meant as a joke.
The Eight-headed 09-07-03, 04:07 AM	As said before, it does not interfere directly in appearance (of course, at least if you want it). As an example, I play with a Cha-8 halfling Rogue/Ranger, who is not that ugly (well, not that pretty either, what would mean an average Cha of 10 or 11), but he is so ***y the whole time (the kind of person who apparently likes being **** off all day around :P and don't have see any meaning on being pleasant to anyone - even his fellow partners), that he deserved no extra points at Cha in the PB process (not that I made it to leave more points in the rest of the attributes, I just wanted to roleplay a character like this :)). Of course, if you still want to credit the low Charisma score to your character's appearance, try thinking on someone who is a bit below average (some scars, some minor defficiency or something like it), but far from Slaugth, from The Goonies. :P And remember that appearance will always be a matter of oppinion. I would exemplify Benicio Del Toro as a Cha-8 person, but I already heard some people who said he is exquisite and/or hot. I, myself, prefer much more a Keira Knigthley (THIS is some appearance-applied Charisma!) :D
Leap 09-08-03, 03:56 AM	Charisma is a measure of how authoritative a communicator you are, so looks play very little part in it (I seem to remember Ghouls are cha 15, so that kinda blows the “beauty” issue out the window. For low charisma think: uncommunicative – check out the Bullette and such creatures with charisma around 4s and 5s. These ones just make no attempt to communicate. For mid charisma think: unconvincing communicator – maybe they whine a lot, or their body language is bad, or perhaps their intonation does not carry confidence…there are lots of ways it can be expressed. Think of the ‘parents’ who have no respect from, or control over, their kids. Occasionally someone takes notice of them, but not very often. For high charisma think: authoritative and convincing communicator – the teachers you always respected at school, the person everyone goes to for advice. Ok so some of you may be going “but mid charisma is not like that”, but when you think 10 str is the average str of an industrialised world (where physical labour is a minority event!) rather than an accurate picture of average str in the medieval setting DnD is based on, then you get to thinking maybe 10/11/12 cha aint so hot afterall……………… A 10 cha person is about as “communicatively impressive” as a 10 str person is “muscularly impressive”…..ie: not very at all!
Tzor 09-08-03, 11:53 AM	Invert the question. How beautiful is cha 8? A classic example is the silent movie actress who when first auditioned for "talkies" had the most obnoxious whiney voice. As long as she kept her mouth shut she was ideal, but once she opened her mouth she was totally horrid. Normally beauty does play a factor in charisma. But in effect all it takes for a low charisma is to have one exceptional low attribute that overcomes all other attribute. One could have a bad speaking voice, one could have rude and obnoxious habits. Many highly charismatic people were in fact downright ugly. Benjamin Franklyn, for example, refused to wear a wig, wore furs (not the kind you find in expensive stores) and basically voilated every rule he wrote as "Poor Richard." But he was beloved in France. He had wit. George Washington, was tall and impressive. In his eight years as president, "The General" was beloved by all. And yet in his eight years he never really did make major speaches or make any significant policies. He knew his limitations and avoided them. This is why charisma cannot be easily represented as either "he's ugly" or "his voice is nasally." It is a complex attribute and as a result it allows a lot of freedom in how you play it. There are many ways to be unpopular and ignored, and you can even combine them all!
Meloncov 09-08-03, 12:24 PM	A better example is Lincoln. He was highly charematic, but proably the ugliest president ever.
Barrid 09-08-03, 04:33 PM	I always just toss an additional 3d6 and use that as my "comeliness" stat since charisma is personality and will etc. Also, when it comes to ability scores, remember that 10 is average human in EVERYTHING. These stats are seemingly exponential in nature (ie there's less distance between a 15 and 16 than a 19 and 20.) Take a look a STR for example. Your average human's max heavy load is 100 lbs. A person with 8 STR's max heavy load is 80 lbs. A difference of 20 lbs. Whereas, say the difference between 18 (300 lbs) and 20 (400 lbs) is a whole 100 lbs. This just leads me to believe that while 8 has a negative modifier, its a lot closer to average than than people give it credit. As for the question at hand. I generally treat a -1 modifier as having 1-2 things "wrong" with the ability. For Charisma your average human should have basic force of personality. Mild or just....well....average. True Neutral if you will. A person with an 8 CHA coul be more brash and brassy than normal. He could be more meek than normal. That would be 1 difference and good enough for me. He could just have a quirk like a slight odor, bad teeth or something slighlty physical that interferes with his presense as a person. Or he qould have a mental quirk like the tendancy to get glassy-eyed when not speaking about himself/herself. Something minor mind you. This character doesn't all the sudden have ADD. Just make something about your character's presense slighlty off-putting. That's the best way I can describe it. Something minor that interferes with the way your character exerts his/her will upon others, be it positively or negatively. Positive as in making an effort to charm a person and negative as in cowing someone. Hope this helps.
MrNiceGuy 09-08-03, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by Maleous Hi, Title says it all... Fran Drescher (at least as The Nannie) - real hottie, but as soon as she opens her mouth, you just want to cram your fist (or some other appendage) in it. Mariah Carey has the same effect on me - that New Jersey disco-queen voice is just nails on a chalk-board to me, no matter how good she looks. Paul
Barrid 09-08-03, 06:19 PM	I just find that hilarious coming from a guy with your handle.
Illithid Tentacles 09-08-03, 06:34 PM	As has been mentioned, Chasima has no bearing whatsoever on appearance. For a slightly below average Charisma (8 or 9), think of somebody who's just a little bit annoying. Like somebody who fidgets or stands just a little bit closer to you than you're comfortable with (those are bad examples, but you get the idea).
PhaedrusXY 09-08-03, 08:34 PM	Yeah, as has already been stated, Cha 8 isn't that much lower than human average Cha 10. So a personality quirk that is annoying or a particularly unfriendly appearance (think Strider in the first LotR book/movie) would be appropriate. Cha 8 doesn't mean your a hunchbacked troglodyte with bad breath and Turett's syndrome. :behold: That would be Cha 3 or worse.
Cli' San Aquanova 09-08-03, 10:50 PM	How ugly is Cha 8? Mialee ugly....... the horror....... the horror... And BTW, Charisma is physical attractiveness; if you don't take my word, then look under Charisma in the PHB.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother 09-09-03, 02:57 AM	Yeah, Charisma affects physical attractiveness, but other things as well. Faeries most often have high Charisma because of their looks, and perfmormance abilities, and various other things. I sometimes wonder how your perception and senses comes from Wisdom. Wise people aren't always able to hear better than people who are less wise. But, that's the game. And a great game, at that.
Leap 09-09-03, 03:25 AM	Two Rivers - To digress a moment, wisdom is about paying attention to what is going on more than simply 'keen senses'. You may have cyber/magically inhanced senses but not the wisdom to actually pay attention.....and that is what makes the difference.
Joseph Amarillo 09-09-03, 05:28 AM	I remember a time when I was explaining the Spot and Listen skills to a newbie. I told him that both skills do not affect how good your eyes or ears are; they affect how well you can recognize what you see or hear. Thus, a character with Listen +20 is not necessarily Daredevil. He/she just knows how to listen well. Remember that HEARING is different from LISTENING. On the other hand, I'm thinking of running a campaign where your physical appearance is based on your physical ability scores. Thus, a STR 18 character would appears really strong and bulky, a DEX 18 character would appear very graceful, and a CON 18... Well... But it's just a game... Not real life.
Leap 09-09-03, 08:04 AM	Continuing the thread rot..... :) When looking at low wisdom think "small child"...... Billy is 3, he wants an ice-cream, knows that the ice-cream van across the road gives out ice-creams and so runs across the road to get one. Billy, being young, has low wisdom, meaning he does not pay attention to wider things and has no contextualising knowledge letting him know how he fits into the world nor indeed how the world fits together. Not only is he forgetting that Mum is required to get ice-creams, he is possibly running out in front of a car (because he is not paying attention to his wider surroundings) and even fails to consider the need for money to buy said ice cream. All he thinks of is "Ice-cream! Yum! Billy want! Billy go get!" The least harmful possibility here is that he actually has 50p in his pocket for an ice-cream, but cannot reach the driver or communicate his needs. The harmful possibility is that he has no money and so when he asks for an ice-cream is turned down flat and proceeds to "through a wobbly". The most harmful possibility is that in running accross the road he gets hit by a passing motorist and dies beneath the wheels of a passing car. Wisdom is sense as well as senses. It is the ability to percieve and understand your environment.
Barrid 09-09-03, 02:10 PM	That physical attractiveness part is kind of just tacked on there at the end because there was nowhere else to put it. I don't remember if Comeliness was core in 2e or from Skills and Powers but it was a stat and quite separate from Charisma. It's just that Charisma did nothing so I think the two got merged to make it less of a dump stat. It did no good because people just assumed their character was "hot" even if their CHA was 5. I still say roll your own attractiveness stat and forget CHA as looks. Because it's in-game usage has little do with appearance anyways.
MrNiceGuy 09-09-03, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by Barrid That physical attractiveness part is kind of just tacked on there at the end because there was nowhere else to put it. I don't remember if Comeliness was core in 2e or from Skills and Powers but it was a stat and quite separate from Charisma. It's just that Charisma did nothing so I think the two got merged to make it less of a dump stat. It did no good because people just assumed their character was "hot" even if their CHA was 5. I still say roll your own attractiveness stat and forget CHA as looks. Because it's in-game usage has little do with appearance anyways. Actually Comeliness first appeared in Dragon magazine and was then codified as an official optional rule in Unearthed Arcana for 1st ed. OAD&D... Interestingly enough, in the original DMG, the note about Charisma specifically states that it is not a reflection of physical attractivness, giving Hitler as an example of a person w/ an 18 Charisma. Paul
Barrid 09-10-03, 12:40 AM	I knew it came from somewhere odd. I never got Unearthed Arcana but I did take a look at it a few times. It just makes more sense because its the actual definition of Charisma.
pyk 09-12-03, 11:05 AM	Here's an example of how Charisma affects the comlieness aspect: Mick Jagger Ugly as hell, but high charisma, so there's a ton of chicks thinks he's the hottest thing around. And I bet there were lots of women thought Hitler was a cutie, too.
MrNiceGuy 09-12-03, 12:48 PM	Originally posted by pyk And I bet there were lots of women thought Hitler was a cutie, too. snickers, remembering a certain scene from Europa Europa! Paul
Barrid 09-12-03, 03:57 PM	Pyk. All you just said is that force of personality makes them desirable. It did nothing to change their looks, which is comeliness. (Being a rock star or the leader of an entire country had absolutely nothing to do with it...:rolleyes: ) My mom finds Dennis Franz attractive. Does she find his dumpy, balding physique sexy? No. She likes him because he's a gruff, but loveable teddy bear. Charisma and Comeliness can go hand-in-hand to make a person MORE or LESS desirable, likable, etc. But there's no synergy bonus between the two. Being likeable doesn't make you less a hag (see Disney's Hunchback) but also being unlikeable doesn't make you less a hottie (insert stuck up prom queen here).
Maleous 09-15-03, 06:41 AM	Thanks everyone. Actually my character did recently pick up some scars "in visible places" as the description went so maybe I'll just say that accounts for his cha 8. ohh. and the guys insists everyone call him scram.... Why? Becuase as a young gnome he didn't posses the social wiles to realise it was an insult htey where hurling at him, not a new nickname.
MrNiceGuy 09-15-03, 09:23 AM	Originally posted by Maleous ohh. and the guys insists everyone call him scram.... Why? Becuase as a young gnome he didn't posses the social wiles to realise it was an insult htey where hurling at him, not a new nickname. "All right - last name: Baldric... Baldric, what's your first name?" "Sot-off" "What!?!?!" "Well when I was just a little turnip, I'd go up to try to play with the neighborhood kids; I'd say 'Hi my name's Baldric,' and they'd say "We know; Sot-off Baldric." "Ok, we'll put S. Baldric!" Paul
Poukis 09-16-03, 06:11 PM	Low charisma may also mean that the character isn't active, he doesn't speak much, he's shy or bad tempered... Just check the section under the races with a -2 on charisma to get some examples...