Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JellyPooga 07-13-07, 09:34 PM	I've created a character, crunch-wise, but need some help on his personality/background. I've got some ideas, but I need to know if people think that they work and I also need a bit of inspiration on some specifics. So anyways, here's the crunch I've got: Race: Aasimar Class (Level): Rogue (1)/ Bard (2)/ Paladin (4)/ Shadowbane Inquisitor (2) Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 20 (22 w. Cloak of Charisma) (These are from rolled stats btw, and yes, I realise that they're very good) Feats: TWF (1), Oversized TWF (3), Power Attack (6), Sacred Healing (9) Weapons: +1 Battle Axe, +1 Longsword, MW Whip, MW Dagger, MW Light Crossbow (50 +1 Bane bolts of various types, 50 mundane bolts) Armour: +1 Mithral Full Plate Equipment: Various bits and pieces of the adventuring persuasion (Survival Pouch, tent, rope, lantern, etc.) Combat Style: Goes in with Crossbow. When in Whip range, draw and start disarming/tripping, fires off last crossbow bolt loaded (then drops Xbow). Draws Axe + Sword and lays into tripped/disarmed foes, with liberal use of Smite if neccesary. Spells: Casts Bard spells (Undetectable Alignment and Healthful Rest...both 24 hour duration) before donning armour in morning. Only 1 Paladin spell, typically prepares Protection from Evil or Bless Weapon (Endure Elements if only expecting to travel that day). Special Stuff: Lay on Hands + Sacred Healing + High Charisma means that he's got a fair amount of healing love to spread (for someone with only 3 level 1 spells per day). Daylight SLA + Pierce Shadows ability means that light creation isn't a problem, Darkvision covers emergencies. As you can see, I've got the crunch-side down pat, no help needed there (I'm aware it's not "optimal" or whatever, that's not what I'm here for advice on). What I need now is a personality, appearance and background. Here's what I've got so far: Personality Name: Kyle Damarre (sir-name pronounced "dam-are-ray") Alignment: Lawful Good (obviously) Kyle is all business when 'on the job', seemingly cold-hearted, merciless, stubborn, arrogant and all those other traits that are typical of Paladins the world over. He uses intimidation as much as his blades to bring evil-doers to justice. When he takes off his armour and puts aside his weapons and gets a chance to relax, he becomes a completely different person; he laughs, he drinks, he smokes, he gambles and he...partakes of the pleasures of the flesh...in short, when 'off duty' he's not what you'd asociate with typical Paladin behaviour. A passing acquaintance would certainly not associate the man he saw earlier, clad in plate mail, bringing criminals to justice was the same man as the one in front of him, dressed in fine velvet and silks, sharing a bawdy joke with the tavern minstrel. As far as Personality goes, that's all I've got so far. I feel it needs fleshing out somewhat and I need opinions on whether having a Paladin drink, etc. is viable...i.e. does it go completely against the grain of being a Paladin to actually enjoy the finer things in life (when he has the chance)? Also, is it unreasonable to have such a dual-natured character still be Lawful? I would also like to put something into his personality about his use of the various weapons he uses...I mean, it's fairly unusual to make use of such a variety (sword, axe, dagger, whip and xbow) and I plan to have him make extensive use of 'tactical' fighting; trip, disarm, bull rush, grapple and the like, rather than simply bashing away with sword and axe. As such, I felt it neccesary to make a point of it in his personality and/or background, but I'm not entirely sure how to. Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. Appearance 1) 6'8" tall 2) 210lb. 3) Golden Orbs for eyes that glow slightly when he's angry/fighting 4) Short Golden-Blonde Hair 5) Fair Skin 6)Bone-White Plate Mail (see Shadowbane pic in Complete Adventurer) when "on duty" 7)Colourful, yet tasteful, velvet and silk clothing to relax in (no jewellery, except his holy symbol) The only thing I need regarding his appearance is whether he is Aasimar-like enough. Is glowing golden orbs for eyes and somewhat abnormal height distinctive enough? Or should he have some other distinguishing feature? When 'on duty' his Plate Mail will cover anything other than more intangible qualities (like an "air of calm" or whatever), so I didn't think it particularly relevant to have them, but I need some opinions. Background - Started off in life as a Rogue and a Scoundrel (Rogue/Bard Class). - Enjoyed a successful career as a pick-pocket, petty thief and con-man. - One day, heard his "Call" to take up the life of a Paladin (Paladin Class) - Fell out of favour with his Church because of his reluctance to give up his old way of life. - Through sheer force of will and his celestial heritage, maintained his Paladin-powers, but uses them as he sees fit, not as a church or god thinks he should use them (Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC). This is the part where I need most help/suggestions. 1)Is his heritage reason enough to keep his powers, despite defecting from actual worship of his patron deity (it's not that he's renounced the deity he used to worship, he just doesn't believe that he should be subject to that diety and its ideals)? 2)I need some suggestions for details on his life before his 'Call', how he got his 'Call' and quite how he fell out of favour with his Church. I also need a deity for him to have used to have worshipped, because I just can't decide which one might be appropriate. Any help/criticism/comments are welcome, it'll all go into one big melting-pot and come out all shiny and new and (more than likely) completely different to the ideas I had when I first started creating this character. Thanks. P.S. This entire character is based off of a REAPER miniature (http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/2600s/2683_G)I own (though you can't see it, he has a full backpack on, upon which is tied a crossbow. The rope-like thing tied to his belt on his right [just under the axe] is a whip. His left hand is resting on the grip of a longsword)
Stormbrand 07-14-07, 12:35 AM	In-depth critique coming up. Excrutiating detail. Kyle is all business when 'on the job', seemingly cold-hearted, merciless, stubborn, arrogant and all those other traits that are typical of Paladins the world over. These are all bad traits for paladins. Take a look at Lawful Good alignment - She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice... Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion - The traits that you have listed have nothing to do with this. Good examples of Paladin-like characters are Druss the Legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druss_the_legend) and Paksenarrion. A good starting point would be to decide how your character is Lawful Good. He uses intimidation as much as his blades to bring evil-doers to justice. When he takes off his armour and puts aside his weapons and gets a chance to relax, he becomes a completely different person; he laughs, he drinks, he smokes, he gambles and he...partakes of the pleasures of the flesh...in short, when 'off duty' he's not what you'd asociate with typical Paladin behaviour. A passing acquaintance would certainly not associate the man he saw earlier, clad in plate mail, bringing criminals to justice was the same man as the one in front of him, dressed in fine velvet and silks, sharing a bawdy joke with the tavern minstrel. As far as Personality goes, that's all I've got so far. I feel it needs fleshing out somewhat and I need opinions on whether having a Paladin drink, etc. is viable...i.e. does it go completely against the grain of being a Paladin to actually enjoy the finer things in life (when he has the chance)? Also, is it unreasonable to have such a dual-natured character still be Lawful? Stuffiness is not part of being a paladin, however, a paladin might have different ideas about what the 'finer things in life' really are. Cigars or gambling seem frivolous or childish compared to funding a bread-line/soup-kitchen/shelter and making sure that 50 more homeless people have food in their bellies and a warm place to sleep. The biggest problem would be 'the pleasures of the flesh', as there is a matter of honour to consider. No seducing women under false pretenses - any one-night-stands should be fully aware at the time. No prostitutes - women are not to be bought and sold as chattel. For another thing, most paladins should have a sense of humour. Lawful Good and high CHA imply kind and likeable. A paladin can enjoy good food, or even drink in moderation (a drunk paladin loses self-control, which is bad). I would also like to put something into his personality about his use of the various weapons he uses...I mean, it's fairly unusual to make use of such a variety (sword, axe, dagger, whip and xbow) and I plan to have him make extensive use of 'tactical' fighting; trip, disarm, bull rush, grapple and the like, rather than simply bashing away with sword and axe. As such, I felt it neccesary to make a point of it in his personality and/or background, but I'm not entirely sure how to. Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. This is good. I like tactical fighting as well. One point advice is to write down a list of favoured tactics, or combination attacks. Remember to flank in combat, and find ways to support your comrades. Use terrain, remember to look for cover or high ground and the like. Fight from the top of a staircase or a hill, then bull rush or trip the opponent so that he falls down. Have an idea of tactics in advance. Appearance 1) 6'8" tall 2) 210lb. 3) Golden Orbs for eyes that glow slightly when he's angry/fighting 4) Short Golden-Blonde Hair 5) Fair Skin 6)Bone-White Plate Mail (see Shadowbane pic in Complete Adventurer) when "on duty" 7)Colourful, yet tasteful, velvet and silk clothing to relax in (no jewellery, except his holy symbol) The only thing I need regarding his appearance is whether he is Aasimar-like enough. Is glowing golden orbs for eyes and somewhat abnormal height distinctive enough? Or should he have some other distinguishing feature? When 'on duty' his Plate Mail will cover anything other than more intangible qualities (like an "air of calm" or whatever), so I didn't think it particularly relevant to have them, but I need some opinions. A few ideas. 'Fair' skin can be more than fair, almost deathly, or perhaps seem rigid like marble. Golden-blonde hair could actually seem metallic. My current Aasimar paladin is actually far more subtle. Background - Started off in life as a Rogue and a Scoundrel (Rogue/Bard Class). - Enjoyed a successful career as a pick-pocket, petty thief and con-man. - One day, heard his "Call" to take up the life of a Paladin (Paladin Class) - Fell out of favour with his Church because of his reluctance to give up his old way of life. - Through sheer force of will and his celestial heritage, maintained his Paladin-powers, but uses them as he sees fit, not as a church or god thinks he should use them (Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC). This is the part where I need most help/suggestions. 1)Is his heritage reason enough to keep his powers, despite defecting from actual worship of his patron deity (it's not that he's renounced the deity he used to worship, he just doesn't believe that he should be subject to that diety and its ideals)? Here is the main problem. The character is not Lawful Good - he refuses to answer to anyone, and does not feel a sense of duty to anything outside of himself. Lawful Good believes that others are entitled to ask things from him. True faith, more so in the paladin sense, is a bond of love, not submission. A paladin is free to walk away, but his choice is stay is why he is a paladin. The whole point of the Paladin Call is that X ideals strike a note deep inside the character, as if he first heard the teaching and knew in that moment how he wanted to spend his life. Imagine love at first sight, imagine your wedding day, imagine the birth of your first child. For a paladin, answering the Call should be an experience of equal intensity, joy and wonder. Ideals make a paladin. Decide a set of ideals that the paladin holds dear, even in the absence of a god. Quite frankly, nothing about this character says 'Lawful Good' to me. The character seems far too self-centered. Let me know if this is helpful, and I can suggest a number of things to use for making a paladin-type character.
JellyPooga 07-14-07, 01:26 PM	These are all bad traits for paladins. Take a look at Lawful Good alignment - She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice... Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion - The traits that you have listed have nothing to do with this. I suppose the key word in my "on the job" description was seemingly. I didn't go into the compassionate, speaking-out-againt-injustice, helping-those-in-need bit, because in my mind, that was a given. Perhaps I should have been more specific. Yeah, I totally agree that a Paladin (or any Lawful Goog character) should have these qualities above all others, but I also wanted this character to be scary to his enemies. So he seems to be cold-hearted, he seems to be merciless, but in fact he's quite the opposite. If he can bring someone to justice without killing them, all the better, if he can redeem a foe without harming them, then that's what he'll do. On the other hand, if there is no chance of redemption or no sign that justice will be served by a persons living, then he has no qulams about cutting that person down where he stands. Good examples of Paladin-like characters are Druss the Legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druss_the_legend) and Paksenarrion. A good starting point would be to decide how your character is Lawful Good. Yeah, I've read the Paksenarrion books (and thoughoughly enjoyed them). I agree that she is a good example of LG, but I wanted to explore more unorthodox examples of what could be construed as LG. Stuffiness is not part of being a paladin, however, a paladin might have different ideas about what the 'finer things in life' really are. Cigars or gambling seem frivolous or childish compared to funding a bread-line/soup-kitchen/shelter and making sure that 50 more homeless people have food in their bellies and a warm place to sleep. The biggest problem would be 'the pleasures of the flesh', as there is a matter of honour to consider. No seducing women under false pretenses - any one-night-stands should be fully aware at the time. No prostitutes - women are not to be bought and sold as chattel. Certainly, I have no disagreement with the above sentiments. I wanted this character to simply enjoy the chances he gets to relax a little more than perhaps other Paladins Vows would allow them to. I see most Paladins coming from deeply religious or formal backgrounds...this one is most certainly not and I wanted that to be obvious in how he spends his spare time. Though I don't see this guy standing on a bread-line, serving soup to the homeless exactly, I do see him spending time with individual homeless people, buying them a few days worth of meals, making friends with them and generally showing them a few nights of fun to give them a ray of sunshine in an otherwise drearly life. It's not a long-term fix, but I think that in his eyes, he can't provide a long term fix, because he simply won't be arounf for that long...so he doesn what littel he can and as intensely as he can. A few ideas. 'Fair' skin can be more than fair, almost deathly, or perhaps seem rigid like marble. Golden-blonde hair could actually seem metallic. I may well go with both of those ideas...alabaster skin and literally golden hair and eyes...I like the look. Fits the intimidating side of his character well too... Here is the main problem. The character is not Lawful Good - he refuses to answer to anyone, and does not feel a sense of duty to anything outside of himself. Lawful Good believes that others are entitled to ask things from him. I'm entirely sure where you got the impression that he refuses to answer to anyone (though I do have some idea), but that's not my intention...he may disagree with the Church that he was a part of, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't answer to the needs of the needy. Yes, he lives by his own rules, but those rules are rules nontheless. He travels the land, righting the wrongs he sees, bringing the guilty to justice, etc, etc. HE doesn't merely travel under the guise of a Paladin, he is a Paladin...he just doesn't adhere to any rules that a Church or god may lay down as he doesn't feel that they are 'true' enough to what his own idea of 'Good' is (i.e. that they have too much of their own agenda)...he doesn't simply smite the 'Evil', he will 'smite' (though perhaps not literally) those that cause Evil (even if said cause is unintentional)...this is where the Shadowbane Inquisitor bit comes into it...he can only live by his own guidance because, to him, that is the only true guide as to what is right and wrong...Good and Evil are far too absolute for him...reality is really shades of grey. The whole point of the Paladin Call is that X ideals strike a note deep inside the character, as if he first heard the teaching and knew in that moment how he wanted to spend his life. Imagine love at first sight, imagine your wedding day, imagine the birth of your first child. For a paladin, answering the Call should be an experience of equal intensity, joy and wonder. For most Paladins, yes, this is the way of things. However, imagine that you heard you 'Call' and rejoiced in it and went out into the world following a particular ideal...but as you experienced life as a Paladin, you slowly came to realise that your judgement of right and wrong was something different to that which you felt drawn to initially...slowly the grey areas became more important and eventually you changed your mind....you didn't feel drawn to the 'Call' that first held sway over your life, but instead felt a different 'Call'....this is what has happened with this character. Let me know if this is helpful, and I can suggest a number of things to use for making a paladin-type character. Your comments have been extremely helpful. They have given me food for thought and allowed me to develop some of the ideals and even some of the background of this character. I would certainly appreciate it if you could make more suggestions...the more the merrier. I'm also getting input from another forum, so I'll be sure to keep you updated as to any further progress I make. Thanks!
Stormbrand 07-16-07, 09:20 PM	Apologies for the wait. I too love scary paladins. Look at Xyon's Ebooks (http://xyon.no-ip.biz/index.html) when it gets started up - mostly the paladin Ragewinter in Books By Other Authors (me). Also read on from near the bottom of PBP threads here (http://www.tharshaddin.com/rp/viewtopic.php?t=777&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75) and early on here (http://www.tharshaddin.com/rp/viewtopic.php?t=884&start=0). The aasimar paladin I am currently playing is pretty frightening (and my RP partner is a published author, which is always fun to read). Understanding your character better, I agree that a paladin could break with his church on moral grounds. Think more on the grounds for disagreement, possibly deciding on the god itself to find a point of disagreement. he just doesn't believe that he should be subject to that diety and its ideals? This was where I got the idea that he does not like answering to people - a large part of paladinhood is willingness to serve. If not a diety, a cause. So my suggestion is think further on the cause and how this is a problem with his diety in question. I could easily see a paladin moving away from St Cuthbert on the grounds that harsh punishment is not the best tool for reform, or perhaps finding the overgentle or overzealous aspects of Pelor's faith to be objectionable, or a Heironian being disillusioned with chivalry going wrong. Shadowbane Inquisitor, however, suggests taking shortcuts. Though I don't see this guy standing on a bread-line, serving soup to the homeless exactly, I do see him spending time with individual homeless people, buying them a few days worth of meals, making friends with them and generally showing them a few nights of fun to give them a ray of sunshine in an otherwise drearly life. It's not a long-term fix, but I think that in his eyes, he can't provide a long term fix, because he simply won't be arounf for that long...so he doesn what littel he can and as intensely as he can. This I like - since it gives some idea of how the character is motivated towards Good. My advice is to think more on the Good things that he does. Distinctive ways to act according to his virtue. Make his integrity the starting point, then work his unusual traits within the framework of his sense of honour and compassion. I think the problem is that the 'unconventional' appeared to be overshadowing 'Lawful Good.' Even if they do not directly contradict, I would advise some way to make his quirks heroic. Also, I never said this earlier, but the dual-demeanor is exactly in line with Lawful alignment, since it is based on the professionalism of being on duty. -------------- Note: The angle I have been recently using is the 'barbaric paladin' who strongly resembles a Celtic chieftain or Germanic king - most people think paladin = civilised culture. The guy dismisses the 'trappings' of civilisation, finding most of them hypocritical. Think Conanesque honour, but nicer, such as the part that none starve unless all starve. Break down something to the fundamentals, and have the character aware of it. For example, noble titles such as the feudal system is basically institutionalised banditry.
JellyPooga 07-16-07, 11:42 PM	O.k. I've got a few more details on his origins and his motivations. - He's the son of an Aasimar bar-maid (hey, even the planetouched have to make a living :P ) and a rather unwelcome customer who payed the landlord of the establishment for a night with her (against her will). - His mother left employment there (unsurprisingly) and got a job with a different landlord in a different tavern/inn, where Kyle was born. This Inn became his home. - Grew up as a scullery boy style of thing, but also picked up a fair few tricks and skills (especially relating to people-skills). The landlord treated him like a son and taught him to play the fiddle, an instrument at which he became quite proficient. [This is the 1st Bard level of his build] - At the age of 16, he left his home "to see the world" and did as well as any travelling minstrel could expect to. [This gives him his Rogue level and his second Bard level] - Upon returning home, a couple of years later, he discovered that the city where he grew up had gone through some kind of civil unrest, the ruling government had been overthrown and, most importantly to him, his family (his mum and the landlord who raised him) killed and his home burned to the ground, apparantly for no good reason. - With no home and no family, he left the city and his anger stewed for a good while; anger at the pointlessness of his families death, the fruitlessness of the 'revolution' (in which more than just his family were innocent victims) and more than anything, the fact that those responsible would more than likely never be brought to justice. --------------------------------- That's as far as his background goes in detail, though I do have a vague idea of where it goes from there. Unfortunately, the details of his life from here on is where his Paladin traits come from and have more bearing on his current personality than does his earlier life. Here's the problems I have at the mo: 1)I'm having trouble thinking of ways for him to channel his desire for justice into becoming a Paladin (probably of St.Cuthbert, though Heironeous is an option). Does he just meet some Cuthbertites who show him their 'way'? Or should he actively seek them out? 2)How does he actually become a Paladin? Does he go to "Paladin School" or do his powers manifest 'naturally'? 3)[Possibly the most important aspect of his background]What is it that he does/does not do that causes his rift from being a Paladin of St.Cuthbert to being a Paladin of Himself (so to speak)? I just need some ideas on those three things. Once I've got them, I can work out exactly what it is his ideals are and how he goes about enforcing them (and how they relate to his more socail side). Or am I going about it the wrong way? Should I get his ideals/personality down and then try to work out his background form them? --------------------------------------------- Understanding your character better, I agree that a paladin could break with his church on moral grounds. Think more on the grounds for disagreement, possibly deciding on the god itself to find a point of disagreement. As mentioned above, I've pretty much decided on St.Cuthbert as a deity, on account of his whole Paladin-hood being based on a desire for justice and, to a lesser extent, vengeance for the wrongs done to his family. I'm having trouble thinking of quite why he has a moral disagreement though. You suggested ...a paladin moving away from St Cuthbert on the grounds that harsh punishment is not the best tool for reform But I don't think that this guy is going to be thinking in that particular way. Have you got any other ideas as to why he would disagree with St.Cuthbertites (or indeed they disagree with him) Shadowbane Inquisitor, however, suggests taking shortcuts. Might I ask why? I don't see the link between Shadowbane and shortcuts. My advice is to think more on the Good things that he does. Distinctive ways to act according to his virtue. Make his integrity the starting point, then work his unusual traits within the framework of his sense of honour and compassion. I think the problem is that the 'unconventional' appeared to be overshadowing 'Lawful Good.' Even if they do not directly contradict, I would advise some way to make his quirks heroic. I had given more thought to the 'unconventional' than the actual 'Paladin' and I think you're right...that's where my problem is. As demonstrated by the above, I have no problem creating a background (and, though it's not obvious by the above, a personality) for a Bard or Rogue type character, but as soon as I hit the Knight/Paladin part, I get into difficuty. Perhaps all I need to do is actually give it some thought from the perspective of a Paladin rather than that of a Rogue...hmm, thinky thinky... Once again, I'll thank you for your input, it's been most helpful...before long I might even finish this character because of your help! :D :P
Stormbrand 07-17-07, 04:04 PM	If you look at Shadowbane Inquisitors the text says that they are in favour of slaughtering an entire village to destroy a demon. That to me counts as 'taking shortcuts'. That is the link I see. Work from ideals first, then build his background around that. Ideals make the paladin. 1)I'm having trouble thinking of ways for him to channel his desire for justice into becoming a Paladin (probably of St.Cuthbert, though Heironeous is an option). Does he just meet some Cuthbertites who show him their 'way'? Or should he actively seek them out? 2)How does he actually become a Paladin? Does he go to "Paladin School" or do his powers manifest 'naturally'? 3)[Possibly the most important aspect of his background]What is it that he does/does not do that causes his rift from being a Paladin of St.Cuthbert to being a Paladin of Himself (so to speak)? 1) My personal view is that the devotion of paladin (even potential paladins) makes them very proactive, in which case seeking the church out makes more sense. Perhaps he comes for an explanation why the church has not intervened with such an atrocity and they answer "We have been, only we are understaffed." 2) Can be some of both. Combat training would be needed. Divine power could be taught but is more likely to manifest naturally. Paladin training is less 'power lessons' and more inspiring the qualities which trigger the powers manifesting. 3) Perhaps play on the Aasimar aspect to highlight a connection with angels. St Cuthbert being LN alignment, would probably not have that connection with angels. Perhaps a paladin could come into power by making a pact with angels. Maybe the local church of St Cuthbert was strongly LN rather than LG, and issued orders to do X rather than help people Y who strongly needed it. Ideals first, then we know why he might argue with his church.