LG Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

LG Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Callista
11-03-04, 01:43 PM I have a 4th level halfling Rogue with a NG alignment, slowly drifting to LG. I think I can make a good case for my Dm to let me change the alignment soon; but with the elements of both halfling-ness and rogue-ness in the character, I'm not quite so sure. Do you think the following constitutes LG?

The character's personality? Absolute loyalty to the party, as well as a little bit of recklessness. She's spent more than one turn deliberately taunting dragons to attempt to keep them from attacking wounded party members. She's also used herself as a shield to block incoming magic missiles, as well as being the first to volunteer to do anything dangerous. The fact that I've rolled well on her HP has allowed her to do this with relative impunity.

She is a rogue, but not a thief; she thinks of herself as a "scout" more than anything else. She's also a little reckless.

She started out as pretty happy-go-lucky, and though she's become more serious since (especially since she almost died inside a Gelatinous Cube), I don't think she'll ever lose the lighthearted halfling-ness she's had from the beginning. Another turning point? The party encountered some derro noncombatants. Almost reflexively, she refused to allow the party to kill them, quite prepared to fight to the death (against the two bloodthirsty CN elves) if necessary to defend them. Thankfully this didn't happen; if she'd been less reckless she might've tried diplomacy, but there you go.

So, my question: Where do I go from here?

I'm seriously thinking of multiclassing to Paladin. I know, it sounds seriously weird... but can it work? Can a paladin still use rogue-ish skills like sneak attacks (at least against evil opponents)? What about setting traps, ambushing things, et cetera? I don't think this character would be prepared to give up what she sees as an advantage in battle, especially when it comes to defending her friends and/or innocents.

What do you think?
nihility
11-03-04, 03:40 PM Sneak attacking is not inherently dishonorable unless you think that it's dishonorable to deliver a clean, quick kill. There's absolutely no reason at all why a rogue couldn't be lawful good. The Book of Exalted Deeds has a discussion of each class in terms of how an exalted version of that class might be realized, which you might want to check out.
nihility
11-03-04, 03:44 PM If you have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds, you might want to look at the Defender of Seltiel (I might have spelled that wrong). Alternately, the Devoted Defender in Sword and Fist might be to your liking. Both focus heavily on protecting others and putting themselves in harm's way if needed.
FatGnome
11-05-04, 10:31 PM The examples you gave are not necisarily lawfull acts. They are devoted to the party which is a traight of good. Now if you never opened chests that were not yours, never took things from those who were dead without trying to find next of kin, and never walked on the grass, then I would say you were lawfull.

just my take
Nightlore
11-09-04, 05:11 PM I agree with everything so far. There is no reason why your rogue can't be lawful good, especially if she considers herself more a scout than a thief. However, FatGnome is right. The examples you have given represent the good trait, not necessarily lawful. Lawful implies a sense of following the laws of the land/government as well as just having good intentions for the party.
Callista
11-09-04, 05:55 PM The party, as well as the people we work for, actually. We're in an organized military group whose primary purpose is to protect the public from the results of a recent rise in the number of dragons.
Tony Vargas
11-10-04, 02:11 PM Yep, you can certainly be lawful good. The paladin calling, though, goes a little beyond even LG, being very 'knightly' in flavor.

The typical use of SA - sneaking up on someone and stabbing them in the back - is certainly not very paladinish. However, I suspsect there are a number of instances where it would be workable. Using stealth and a sap to subdue a potential foe who doesn't deserve death might be preferable to killing even in honorable combat, flanking & SA might just be a reasonable part of teamwork, SA adds to a 'coupe de grace' which can be apropriate for a paladin to aply in some circumstances, and, nothing says you must cede initiative to fight honorably (keep in mind that you can win initiative even against a foe who is initiating hostilities, if you are both aware to start). Still, if you did heed the call, I'd expect the sneaking around and SA'ing to be curtailed...
Morka
11-10-04, 08:56 PM I think that defending the non-combattant Derro could be a LG act: you had no specific link to them, only the fact that attacking them could have been evil. But a LG act doesn't make a LG character, like an evil act doesn't make an evil character. If you think your character believe in the world is a huge organized thing, then switch to LG.

I don't think that Sneack Attack is incompatible with a LG alignment. A lawful character will rely on his allies for more combat efficiency: help another, and flanking. A sneack attack done to a flanked foe is not really a backstab.
Osiris Memnoch
11-13-04, 02:49 AM You guys are all taking a pretty conservative stance on "lawful" and "sneak attacks."
"Lawful" isn't necissarily obeying the land's laws. It can also mean having a personal code of honor, a high level of discipline, or a sense of personal morals (that's personal morals. That might include something like "I refuse to buy goods from that guy. I heard he touches children") "Lawful" needs to be able to apply to good, neutral, and evil characters.
Also, a sneak attack may sound dubious (it is sneaky), but it is described as hitting the target where it hurts while the target is off balance for whatever reason. The attack isn't what's dishonest, but the way you make the attack con be. For example, using Move Silently to sneak up behind someone would be bad, but flanking or feinting would be ok.
I wouldn't suggest multiclassing into Paladin, but there's nothing stopping you if you want to do it.
Shir'Kazan
11-15-04, 08:56 PM I have to agree completely with FatGnome, but I want to go further and say that turning into LG (unless you realy want that Paladin) would be a MISTAKE.

All the traits you mention are Good and NOT Lawful. There could be absolutely Chaotic Gnoll Chief who is brave and loves a good fight just to show his courage. Also he considered it below his level to stab a worthy enemy in the back - while he still NOT obliged to it, and of course if he thinks he wouldnt survive frontal attack he'll backstab. On the other hand, Lawful Evil Hobgoblin still would favor backstabing than risking himself (though he would rather hire someone to do it for him, or use the "justice system" to get his foes imprisoned or excuted).
You mention your Halfling's natural mischievousness that she won't loose. And that's where I am refering to this alignment change as mistake. Someone said correctly up there that if your halfling never looks to bend the rules, you might consider him lawful. Yet, there's nothing related between Lawfulness and Goodness. Just remember that Devils are Lawful, that doenst make them oppose sneak attacks, on the conterary - most would never engage you directly, unless there are lesser minions between him and you by the ranks.

Anyway, LG or not - DONT go for Paladin if you have 7 Charisma. Charisma should be valued for a Paladin more than Strength even. You can fight Evil eagerly without being a Paladin. Check the accessories for Prestige Classes like Vigilante and so... Some of them can also be Lawful, though I for one wouldnt recommend any Rogue being Lawful, because it might impede the potential for most of his skills (doing things "the other way" - indirectly).
MetalGemini
11-15-04, 09:00 PM Knights need scouts too. Theres no reason you couldn't multiclass to paladin. You wouldn't be using the whole full plate tin can style of a paladin, but your flanking sneak attack will certainly come in handy.

I think you qualify for LG. If your DM says otherwise, tell him that you will learn how to be more lawful as a paladin. I'm not sure where Shir'Kazan got the Cha 7 thing, I'm guessing the stats in your signature are a different character. A rogue with 13 Dex would be having a hard time... Anyway, try it out. You'll be fine.
Callista
11-16-04, 03:35 AM Hmmmm....

From the sum total of your posts, I'm thinking the character is probably still NG with tendencies towards LG, but is probably not completely there yet; or, if she is, isn't the paragon of LG-ness needed to become a Paladin.

I believe the "Cha 7" confusion came from my sig, which displays the results of a character test I took. The characters actual Charisma score is 13; I'd never consider putting a Cha 7 in any rogue's skills unless s/he were a socially-inadept Dexterity-oriented stab-trap-and-lock rogue.

Actually, stats follow, just so you know what I'm working with:
Str 11
Dex 20
Con 10
Int 15
Wis 16
Cha 13

As for sneak attacks: Flanking, feinting, and striking while an opponent is off-guard are definitely a big part of this character's repertoire; but she wouldn't shoot from hiding, while invisible, or at an opponent who wasn't aware of her. Under most circumstances, she wouldn't deliver a coup de grace, preferring to capture the opponent instead.

Too bad no one in our group is actually playing a paladin. Depending on the paladin's personality, this halfling could easily ally herself with him or her. This would, of course, seriously annoy the other rogue in the party--the epitome of the treasure-stealing, pocket-picking, backstabbing CN rogue--who has been in competition with my character ever since the characters met (the rogue's player and I, incidentally, have a lot of fun with this!). They're forever trying to prove to each other that their own style is the most effective. I suppose that's part of the reason I wonder whether going to LG might be feasible: It would give me so many fun RP opportunities versus my character's fellow rogue!

So, right now, I'm thinking paladin is not quite the style I'm looking for... she'd be a very unconventional paladin, anyhow... but there have got to be prestige classes for an honorable (perhaps Exalted NG, rather than LG?) rogue out there. Any suggestions?
Shir'Kazan
11-16-04, 08:56 AM There was some more-or-less recent Dragon article about "paladins" from ALL alignments. I know that Defenders of Faith also features some sort of dedicated holy warriors other than LG. Check out the Rogue's accessories where you can find Evil-opposer PrC like the vigilante.

By the way, Paladin (unless it's on his own Code of Conduct) isnt banned from attacking from hiding. Depends on the consequences of course. Suppose he is abmushing an Evil Demon known for his cruel deeds where it is clear that frontal fight has no chance of getting it, he might do it. Not all tactics are intentionaly "dirty".
Callista
11-16-04, 12:55 PM I don't think my character would refuse to participate in an ambush... sniper-style assassinations, though, are a different matter. As are demons and other definitely and irrevocably evil creatures, for that matter. With that Intelligence score, she's not going to be stupid enough to try to parley with a vampire.
nihility
11-16-04, 01:00 PM I don't think my character would refuse to participate in an ambush... sniper-style assassinations, though, are a different matter. As are demons and other definitely and irrevocably evil creatures, for that matter. With that Intelligence score, she's not going to be stupid enough to try to parley with a vampire.
Exactly. It's all about context and the character's personal and cultural standards of honor.
:thumbsup:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 11-03-04, 01:43 PM	I have a 4th level halfling Rogue with a NG alignment, slowly drifting to LG. I think I can make a good case for my Dm to let me change the alignment soon; but with the elements of both halfling-ness and rogue-ness in the character, I'm not quite so sure. Do you think the following constitutes LG? The character's personality? Absolute loyalty to the party, as well as a little bit of recklessness. She's spent more than one turn deliberately taunting dragons to attempt to keep them from attacking wounded party members. She's also used herself as a shield to block incoming magic missiles, as well as being the first to volunteer to do anything dangerous. The fact that I've rolled well on her HP has allowed her to do this with relative impunity. She is a rogue, but not a thief; she thinks of herself as a "scout" more than anything else. She's also a little reckless. She started out as pretty happy-go-lucky, and though she's become more serious since (especially since she almost died inside a Gelatinous Cube), I don't think she'll ever lose the lighthearted halfling-ness she's had from the beginning. Another turning point? The party encountered some derro noncombatants. Almost reflexively, she refused to allow the party to kill them, quite prepared to fight to the death (against the two bloodthirsty CN elves) if necessary to defend them. Thankfully this didn't happen; if she'd been less reckless she might've tried diplomacy, but there you go. So, my question: Where do I go from here? I'm seriously thinking of multiclassing to Paladin. I know, it sounds seriously weird... but can it work? Can a paladin still use rogue-ish skills like sneak attacks (at least against evil opponents)? What about setting traps, ambushing things, et cetera? I don't think this character would be prepared to give up what she sees as an advantage in battle, especially when it comes to defending her friends and/or innocents. What do you think?
nihility 11-03-04, 03:40 PM	Sneak attacking is not inherently dishonorable unless you think that it's dishonorable to deliver a clean, quick kill. There's absolutely no reason at all why a rogue couldn't be lawful good. The Book of Exalted Deeds has a discussion of each class in terms of how an exalted version of that class might be realized, which you might want to check out.
nihility 11-03-04, 03:44 PM	If you have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds, you might want to look at the Defender of Seltiel (I might have spelled that wrong). Alternately, the Devoted Defender in Sword and Fist might be to your liking. Both focus heavily on protecting others and putting themselves in harm's way if needed.
FatGnome 11-05-04, 10:31 PM	The examples you gave are not necisarily lawfull acts. They are devoted to the party which is a traight of good. Now if you never opened chests that were not yours, never took things from those who were dead without trying to find next of kin, and never walked on the grass, then I would say you were lawfull. just my take
Nightlore 11-09-04, 05:11 PM	I agree with everything so far. There is no reason why your rogue can't be lawful good, especially if she considers herself more a scout than a thief. However, FatGnome is right. The examples you have given represent the good trait, not necessarily lawful. Lawful implies a sense of following the laws of the land/government as well as just having good intentions for the party.
Callista 11-09-04, 05:55 PM	The party, as well as the people we work for, actually. We're in an organized military group whose primary purpose is to protect the public from the results of a recent rise in the number of dragons.
Tony Vargas 11-10-04, 02:11 PM	Yep, you can certainly be lawful good. The paladin calling, though, goes a little beyond even LG, being very 'knightly' in flavor. The typical use of SA - sneaking up on someone and stabbing them in the back - is certainly not very paladinish. However, I suspsect there are a number of instances where it would be workable. Using stealth and a sap to subdue a potential foe who doesn't deserve death might be preferable to killing even in honorable combat, flanking & SA might just be a reasonable part of teamwork, SA adds to a 'coupe de grace' which can be apropriate for a paladin to aply in some circumstances, and, nothing says you must cede initiative to fight honorably (keep in mind that you can win initiative even against a foe who is initiating hostilities, if you are both aware to start). Still, if you did heed the call, I'd expect the sneaking around and SA'ing to be curtailed...
Morka 11-10-04, 08:56 PM	I think that defending the non-combattant Derro could be a LG act: you had no specific link to them, only the fact that attacking them could have been evil. But a LG act doesn't make a LG character, like an evil act doesn't make an evil character. If you think your character believe in the world is a huge organized thing, then switch to LG. I don't think that Sneack Attack is incompatible with a LG alignment. A lawful character will rely on his allies for more combat efficiency: help another, and flanking. A sneack attack done to a flanked foe is not really a backstab.
Osiris Memnoch 11-13-04, 02:49 AM	You guys are all taking a pretty conservative stance on "lawful" and "sneak attacks." "Lawful" isn't necissarily obeying the land's laws. It can also mean having a personal code of honor, a high level of discipline, or a sense of personal morals (that's personal morals. That might include something like "I refuse to buy goods from that guy. I heard he touches children") "Lawful" needs to be able to apply to good, neutral, and evil characters. Also, a sneak attack may sound dubious (it is sneaky), but it is described as hitting the target where it hurts while the target is off balance for whatever reason. The attack isn't what's dishonest, but the way you make the attack con be. For example, using Move Silently to sneak up behind someone would be bad, but flanking or feinting would be ok. I wouldn't suggest multiclassing into Paladin, but there's nothing stopping you if you want to do it.
Shir'Kazan 11-15-04, 08:56 PM	I have to agree completely with FatGnome, but I want to go further and say that turning into LG (unless you realy want that Paladin) would be a MISTAKE. All the traits you mention are Good and NOT Lawful. There could be absolutely Chaotic Gnoll Chief who is brave and loves a good fight just to show his courage. Also he considered it below his level to stab a worthy enemy in the back - while he still NOT obliged to it, and of course if he thinks he wouldnt survive frontal attack he'll backstab. On the other hand, Lawful Evil Hobgoblin still would favor backstabing than risking himself (though he would rather hire someone to do it for him, or use the "justice system" to get his foes imprisoned or excuted). You mention your Halfling's natural mischievousness that she won't loose. And that's where I am refering to this alignment change as mistake. Someone said correctly up there that if your halfling never looks to bend the rules, you might consider him lawful. Yet, there's nothing related between Lawfulness and Goodness. Just remember that Devils are Lawful, that doenst make them oppose sneak attacks, on the conterary - most would never engage you directly, unless there are lesser minions between him and you by the ranks. Anyway, LG or not - DONT go for Paladin if you have 7 Charisma. Charisma should be valued for a Paladin more than Strength even. You can fight Evil eagerly without being a Paladin. Check the accessories for Prestige Classes like Vigilante and so... Some of them can also be Lawful, though I for one wouldnt recommend any Rogue being Lawful, because it might impede the potential for most of his skills (doing things "the other way" - indirectly).
MetalGemini 11-15-04, 09:00 PM	Knights need scouts too. Theres no reason you couldn't multiclass to paladin. You wouldn't be using the whole full plate tin can style of a paladin, but your flanking sneak attack will certainly come in handy. I think you qualify for LG. If your DM says otherwise, tell him that you will learn how to be more lawful as a paladin. I'm not sure where Shir'Kazan got the Cha 7 thing, I'm guessing the stats in your signature are a different character. A rogue with 13 Dex would be having a hard time... Anyway, try it out. You'll be fine.
Callista 11-16-04, 03:35 AM	Hmmmm.... From the sum total of your posts, I'm thinking the character is probably still NG with tendencies towards LG, but is probably not completely there yet; or, if she is, isn't the paragon of LG-ness needed to become a Paladin. I believe the "Cha 7" confusion came from my sig, which displays the results of a character test I took. The characters actual Charisma score is 13; I'd never consider putting a Cha 7 in any rogue's skills unless s/he were a socially-inadept Dexterity-oriented stab-trap-and-lock rogue. Actually, stats follow, just so you know what I'm working with: Str 11 Dex 20 Con 10 Int 15 Wis 16 Cha 13 As for sneak attacks: Flanking, feinting, and striking while an opponent is off-guard are definitely a big part of this character's repertoire; but she wouldn't shoot from hiding, while invisible, or at an opponent who wasn't aware of her. Under most circumstances, she wouldn't deliver a coup de grace, preferring to capture the opponent instead. Too bad no one in our group is actually playing a paladin. Depending on the paladin's personality, this halfling could easily ally herself with him or her. This would, of course, seriously annoy the other rogue in the party--the epitome of the treasure-stealing, pocket-picking, backstabbing CN rogue--who has been in competition with my character ever since the characters met (the rogue's player and I, incidentally, have a lot of fun with this!). They're forever trying to prove to each other that their own style is the most effective. I suppose that's part of the reason I wonder whether going to LG might be feasible: It would give me so many fun RP opportunities versus my character's fellow rogue! So, right now, I'm thinking paladin is not quite the style I'm looking for... she'd be a very unconventional paladin, anyhow... but there have got to be prestige classes for an honorable (perhaps Exalted NG, rather than LG?) rogue out there. Any suggestions?
Shir'Kazan 11-16-04, 08:56 AM	There was some more-or-less recent Dragon article about "paladins" from ALL alignments. I know that Defenders of Faith also features some sort of dedicated holy warriors other than LG. Check out the Rogue's accessories where you can find Evil-opposer PrC like the vigilante. By the way, Paladin (unless it's on his own Code of Conduct) isnt banned from attacking from hiding. Depends on the consequences of course. Suppose he is abmushing an Evil Demon known for his cruel deeds where it is clear that frontal fight has no chance of getting it, he might do it. Not all tactics are intentionaly "dirty".
Callista 11-16-04, 12:55 PM	I don't think my character would refuse to participate in an ambush... sniper-style assassinations, though, are a different matter. As are demons and other definitely and irrevocably evil creatures, for that matter. With that Intelligence score, she's not going to be stupid enough to try to parley with a vampire.
nihility 11-16-04, 01:00 PM	I don't think my character would refuse to participate in an ambush... sniper-style assassinations, though, are a different matter. As are demons and other definitely and irrevocably evil creatures, for that matter. With that Intelligence score, she's not going to be stupid enough to try to parley with a vampire. Exactly. It's all about context and the character's personal and cultural standards of honor. :thumbsup: