Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davethebrave371 10-30-05, 08:43 PM	A character in my group wants to make a character who will be a mapmaker. He decided, in the end, on the Expert NPC class. I let people play them if they want, because they're underpowered, so I don't mind. Problem is, we're both trying to think of good skills to be class skills for him. Knowledge (geography) is obvious. Appraise, perhaps, for identifying really ancient and expensive maps and their costs. Any ideas? We've got the concept down, but we need to translate that into mechanics.
Fithero 10-30-05, 10:21 PM	First of all, try and get him/her off the idea of being an expert, npc classes are npc classes for a reason. Try the skill Profession (map maker or scribe) that should give you the required game mechanics, and of course, knowledge (geography) As for a class, think about wizard or Archivist, possibly even a rogue but try and have him take the Prc the Exemplar (From the Complete Adventurer). Just dont let them take a npc class, people always end up regretting it. Later
davethebrave371 10-30-05, 10:45 PM	First of all, try and get him/her off the idea of being an expert, npc classes are npc classes for a reason. Try the skill Profession (map maker or scribe) that should give you the required game mechanics, and of course, knowledge (geography) As for a class, think about wizard or Archivist, possibly even a rogue but try and have him take the Prc the Exemplar (From the Complete Adventurer). Just dont let them take a npc class, people always end up regretting it. Later Archivist?
Harrow Blade 10-30-05, 10:46 PM	I agree with Fithero, don't take the npc class. I would choose rogue for the skill points and take decipher script, profession cartography (mapmaking), knowledge geography(even if it is a cross class skill). The skills and skill-points aside there are a number of benefits of taking rouge that will possible save your skin later such as evasion and sneak attack.
Fithero 10-30-05, 11:09 PM	Archivist? They are a new class from Heros of Horror. Basically they are the wizards of the divine world. They study prayer books to get their spells instead of praying for them, and they can learn *any* divine spell to boot. Just thought it fitted the image of the map maker. Later
Good Agnostic 10-30-05, 11:18 PM	I agree with the folks who said stay away from the NPC classes. I'd certainly go with Rogue for the skill points and then take skills and feats that really focus the character as a cartographer. A one level dip into Wizard for the Comprehend Languages spell and some other useful spells would be completely in character as well.
nihility 10-30-05, 11:35 PM	There's a 3.0 PrC called the Royal Explorer in Song and Silence that would fit this perfectly. It's a 10-level PrC that's all about exploring and bringing back maps and detailed records to the PrC's organization. I recommend checking it out - having good cartographic skills is one of the flavor-requirements for membership.
davethebrave371 10-31-05, 12:16 AM	Hmmm, definately all something to think about! I'll run it by him.
Setherial 10-31-05, 04:01 AM	You can take any class that might relate to his background and houserule a modified skill list. Cleric : Many monestaries have monks specialized in writing/copying books, scrolls, mapmaking... Work out a modified cleric class focussed towards knowledge, craft and a modified spelllist and domain. Bard: Not a musically gifted bard but a story writer. As a profession he eventually choose mapmaking because he's good at drawing and writing but his real passion always ramained storytelling. Now he's known for his maps with faint traces of magic weaved into them. Fighter: this one really needs modified skills, tone down his combat abilities and focus on mapmaking. Background would be that he served for the army for years as a soldier and mapmaker. Captain: This one I'd say would be perfect, there are a lot of books with classes and Prestige classes to play the sailor type, a Captain of a ship. As a captain he would both have some combat experience and good knowlegde of map making and reading, knowledge of the world and geography, etc... ....
Fithero 10-31-05, 09:22 AM	There is actually a organisation in Complete adventurer that has its members draw maps and diagrams of dungeons and roads that people often travel. League of the boot and trail or something like that. Your character would be right at home in this sort of organisation. Later
davethebrave371 10-31-05, 09:28 AM	You can take any class that might relate to his background and houserule a modified skill list. Cleric : Many monestaries have monks specialized in writing/copying books, scrolls, mapmaking... Work out a modified cleric class focussed towards knowledge, craft and a modified spelllist and domain. Bard: Not a musically gifted bard but a story writer. As a profession he eventually choose mapmaking because he's good at drawing and writing but his real passion always ramained storytelling. Now he's known for his maps with faint traces of magic weaved into them. Fighter: this one really needs modified skills, tone down his combat abilities and focus on mapmaking. Background would be that he served for the army for years as a soldier and mapmaker. Captain: This one I'd say would be perfect, there are a lot of books with classes and Prestige classes to play the sailor type, a Captain of a ship. As a captain he would both have some combat experience and good knowlegde of map making and reading, knowledge of the world and geography, etc... .... Problems with these, just due to character background. Cleric: It's a newly awakened Warforged in Eberron, and really hasn't been introduced to deities as such, and there are no concepts it sees as divine, and in fact, the concept of divinity itself is probably beyond its thinking at its introduction into the campaign. Bard: The Perform aspect doesn't make any sense, again, newly awakened. I could see a Bard, but one without a Perform skill. I could see something like the class ability of the Exemplar, where you can use any skill as a Perform skill, but I think Rogue to get there might make a little more sense, though why he knows how to Sneak Attack I'll never know. Fighter: I don't want to figure out how to balance that, and he REALLY doesn't want to be a Fighter, so we're both kind of against that. I'm not sure what I'd have to swap out to give him more skill points and more skill options, and really, it's not worth it in the end because he doesn't want him to know how to use too many weapons. Captain: We already have a Khoravar Bard with the Mark of Storm in our group, and he's planning on taking the Windwright Captain and Legendary Captain PrCs eventually. So it's already kind of covered.
erbmjw 10-31-05, 11:17 AM	Quick question - is he the person who draws the map the first time from real world experience or the person who collects old/incomplete maps and refines them into better maps? Because that changes what skills your character needs to take. Bardic lore would work great for either type - it would work well with the skills as well. Ranger works very well for the first type - ie the exploring cartographer The skill you want to make maps is Profession cartographer. If you already have a Captian - then I would suggest the new warforged character take the profession sailor as well. A ranger that is at home in the land and on the water - as well as having a skill in cartography would be a great asset to many groups. **** One concern - newly awakened warforged means that someone had to teach him at least base level skills - so he should be able whatever class you want - yes/no?
davethebrave371 10-31-05, 09:04 PM	Quick question - is he the person who draws the map the first time from real world experience or the person who collects old/incomplete maps and refines them into better maps? Because that changes what skills your character needs to take. Bardic lore would work great for either type - it would work well with the skills as well. Ranger works very well for the first type - ie the exploring cartographer The skill you want to make maps is Profession cartographer. If you already have a Captian - then I would suggest the new warforged character take the profession sailor as well. A ranger that is at home in the land and on the water - as well as having a skill in cartography would be a great asset to many groups. **** One concern - newly awakened warforged means that someone had to teach him at least base level skills - so he should be able whatever class you want - yes/no? Oh yes, any class. Not a problem. We just figgered that Expert fit best, aside from perhaps Bard, which only doesn't fit because of Perform. If we drop a major class feature, it's perfect. The spellcasting also doesn't fit so well, to be honest. As to the first one, he is both.
Bayne 10-31-05, 10:15 PM	I think a ranger would fit well too. The only thing I can think of that would be weird is the favored enemy.
Sluagh 10-31-05, 11:39 PM	I was actually building a mapmaker today. I chose to go with Bard for a variety of reasons: .: Good skill point acquisition .: All Knowledges are class skills - Geography is obvious; religion, dungeoneering, perhaps the Planes if you intend to map more than your plane, History, etc would all be useful Knowledges for a good map maker to have in their research, pouring over old maps, searching for extra information to make their maps better and all that jazz. .: Profession (cartography) would be a wise skill .: Craft skills might be applicable to map making .: Bardic Knowledge - useful much like the various Knowledge skills are, especially when trying to figure out more obscure information and places As for the perform part, you could abandon music and go with Perform (Oratory), be a weaver of tales, developed from the information you've learned... no reason not to use your map collection to add to the stories you build. Spellcasting, well, maintain spells that will help you find the information you would need to develop your maps to the highest quality possible... steer away from the combat oriented spells and such.
erbmjw 11-01-05, 06:51 AM	Quick questions Why a bard? ie what bard skills/feats/bonuses fits the part of the cartographer better than the ranger? The bard has the edge on overall maping skills, all knowledge as class skills - ie history and gather information, as well as the feat Bardic knowledge The ranger would be better suited to the exploring cartographer - and he has the minimum skills need for a cartographer as well as having a better ability to survive as well as make maps ( class skills such as survival, spot, search ) in the wilderness. **** As for the favored enemy - you don't have to choose it at the level you get it - you can choose it later, after you have meet them and survived at least once.
davethebrave371 11-01-05, 09:05 AM	I was actually building a mapmaker today. I chose to go with Bard for a variety of reasons: .: Good skill point acquisition .: All Knowledges are class skills - Geography is obvious; religion, dungeoneering, perhaps the Planes if you intend to map more than your plane, History, etc would all be useful Knowledges for a good map maker to have in their research, pouring over old maps, searching for extra information to make their maps better and all that jazz. .: Profession (cartography) would be a wise skill .: Craft skills might be applicable to map making .: Bardic Knowledge - useful much like the various Knowledge skills are, especially when trying to figure out more obscure information and places As for the perform part, you could abandon music and go with Perform (Oratory), be a weaver of tales, developed from the information you've learned... no reason not to use your map collection to add to the stories you build. Spellcasting, well, maintain spells that will help you find the information you would need to develop your maps to the highest quality possible... steer away from the combat oriented spells and such. I already took all that into account with the prelim Ranger, Bard and Expert builds I did, and oratory does make the most sense, but that'll be the second Bard in our group with Perform (oratory), the other being the captain. Since that's two with the same sort of thing, I'm not entirely sure that he'd be down with that. We'll see, I have to run these sorts of things by him. It is, after all, his character.
Mephibosheth 11-01-05, 09:46 AM	Why not go with the Scout (a rogue-like base class from Complete Adventurer)? Scouts get 8 skill points per level, periodic speed enhancements, and (perhaps most importantly) knowledge (geography) and knowledge (dungeoneering) as class skills. You get all of the skill benefits of bard without the song and magic aspects that you seem to find out of character. Plus, their speed and movement bonuses fit the image of a wandering mapmaker/adventurer pretty well (IMHO).
davethebrave371 11-01-05, 09:55 AM	Why not go with the Scout (a rogue-like base class from Complete Adventurer)? Scouts get 8 skill points per level, periodic speed enhancements, and (perhaps most importantly) knowledge (geography) and knowledge (dungeoneering) as class skills. You get all of the skill benefits of bard without the song and magic aspects that you seem to find out of character. Plus, their speed and movement bonuses fit the image of a wandering mapmaker/adventurer pretty well (IMHO). He already poo-pooed that option, but I'll bring it up again when we discuss it. He doesn't like non-PH core classes, for the most part, but we've had an Aristocrat in our group before, so he doesn't mind NPC classes.
FolcoTook 11-01-05, 05:35 PM	Well, I just made a character that has a pre-adventurer background as both a mapmaker and scribe. His class is Rogue. I took 2 ranks each in Craft (mapmaking), Craft (drawing) [seemed good for flavor], Profession (scribe), and Knowledge (geography). As far as learning his Rogue class abilities, I took care of that with the backstory. In the game we just started, all of the characters are ex-slaves, so one of his previous owners was a con-artist who had him create forged documents (took a couple ranks of Forgery for this part of the background) to back up his cons. At the same time, Wil learned things like sneak attack, picking locks, dealing with traps, etc. from the rest of the gang. If he does want to use the Expert class, he could always multiclass out of it to keep up his abilities with the other characters. If you use the multiclass XP penalty, you could always make that class not count in determining unequal class advancement to compensate. If you wanted to beef up the Expert class to PC status, you could always come up with a list of bonus feats similar to the Fighter list and award them at the same rate. -FT
Setherial 11-02-05, 02:28 AM	Captain: We already have a Khoravar Bard with the Mark of Storm in our group, and he's planning on taking the Windwright Captain and Legendary Captain PrCs eventually. So it's already kind of covered. As a DM I would grab this opportunity and play a mostly sea/sky based adventure. If two players already want to go that way (one Captain and one sailor specialized in navigation and mapmaking) it seems perfect. Also Eberron offers much goodness for that sort of adventuring. Ofcourse if you already have a campaign planned as you probably have this won't be an option. Also a mapmaking based character, in order for him to enjoy this will require a lot of effort from the DM's side. You practically have to custom make your adventure to fit his skills.
davethebrave371 11-02-05, 09:41 AM	As a DM I would grab this opportunity and play a mostly sea/sky based adventure. If two players already want to go that way (one Captain and one sailor specialized in navigation and mapmaking) it seems perfect. Also Eberron offers much goodness for that sort of adventuring. Ofcourse if you already have a campaign planned as you probably have this won't be an option. Also a mapmaking based character, in order for him to enjoy this will require a lot of effort from the DM's side. You practically have to custom make your adventure to fit his skills. Not really, to be honest. Even on Khorvaire itself there are regions that haven't been mapped, especially the more southern regions. In fact, aside from the Five Nations themselves (one of which is drastically altered, and so in need of mapping), every one needs at least some portion of it mapped, and then there's Khyber too. He's not necessarily going to start taking ability damage if he doesn't map uncharted terrain every 5 seconds. He can adventure where there is no need for new maps to be made, in particular places he hasn't been, because he can check maps to see how accurate they are, make personal notes on his own copies, etc. It's all in the players' hands how they want to RP things, I just provide them with a backdrop.
Trydan 11-02-05, 01:16 PM	What's the game world again? In Greyhawk the deity of Fahrlangan (I'm not sure on the spelling) is the god of travellers. Choose something similar for your game world. I like the idea of using Bard or Rogue as the initial class. Consider Knowledge (dungeoneering) - there's nothing wrong with being able to map underground, so that could be good. In 3.0 ED, there used to be a skill "Intuit Direction". Does it exist in 3.5 too? Finally, don't forget the "Skill Focus" feat, if you want to become a real guru at a particular skill.
MrFilthyIke 11-03-05, 04:49 PM	I tried writing up the concept NUMEROUS times, cos I like it. That that was before the Song 'n Silence PrC came out. I found the best way was to be a Rogue, and take Education as a starting Feat (giving all Knowledge skills as class skills). Now dang near every skill is a class skill, pump your INT and focus on Appraise, Craft (Calligraphy), Decipher Script, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Profession (map making), Profession (sailor), Ride (cc), and Survival (cc). These things will allow you to travel the world, and MAP IT. :D You can write off Sneak Attack, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge and being so dang cunning you get out of the way or lined up for a good hit with ease. Trap stuff? From finding old maps yourself! Best set up. Ranger CAN do it, but not w/ as many skill, and no "getting outta harms way abilities". :)