Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroimaken 04-24-08, 11:48 AM	This shall also be posted on the CO boards, due to the fact chances are it will improve interaction. Quite a few years back, I used to play a nifty little point-buy-based system called 3D&T, released only on Brazil. It was remarkably simple: only d6s were used, 5 attributes (Strength, Ability, Stamina, Armor and Firepower), a simple skill system, and advantages/disadvantages with fixed costs each. Overall, it was extremely simple to make a character for it. Eventually, 3rd Edition and the D20 system rolled in. At the time, there was a lot of commotion in the Brazillian RPG community that WotC would take over the RPG world as we knew it, and that all diversity within it would plain disappear. The original 3D&T developers were not the least bothered by it -- they ran a magazine that claimed to be the only RPG-specialized in the market, their system was remarkably simpler and cheaper. In fact, where they once gave only stats for their own system, they started giving stats for D20 as well. Over time, 3D&T all but shrank back in face of the quickly advancing 3rd edition (and the infighting of the editors of said magazine, but I digress). It's now in their 4th edition, but I don't think barely anyone remembers it anymore. That happened, I believe, because the system was exceedingly simple and VERY easy to break. Broken builds with starting characters were all but commonplace when the system was at its highest, and even when the system "suffered" a considerable nerf, it was still very, very possible to break it over again. D&D suffers from a similar malady, although it's quite across the spectrum. The problem with D&D is that it's VERY complex. There are all kinds of rules and loopholes one can use to make their characters stronger, and there's no end of materials available to optimize. This problematic tends to be oversimplified into a "Role-play versus Roll-play" issue. In short, those who choose to optimize their characters are called "powergamers" and ostracized by their more "flavor-oriented" peers. An excellent thread has been posted on the CO boards (I believe it was called "The Optimization Gospel" or somesuch, but I didn't bookmark it) in that regard. It offered several points and counterpoints to the whole Roll-playing debacle, including things such as "overpowered casters" and other such subjects. It basically offered an alternative: instead of trying to correct flaws or trying to conciliate Roll-play/Role-play, it said, "embrace the flaws" (at least, that was my understanding). And it was right on the spot. Let's face it, D&D has been punched with more holes than swiss cheese. The abundance of materials is just the tip of the iceberg -- one can destroy the world only by being a 15-level Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item, Polymorph any Object and enough money to burn. All BY THE RULES. Now, this is, of course, unacceptable to most, even the most power-hungry optimizer -- people say you shouldn't actually PLAY Pun-Pun, but the fact is, the possibility of him existing at all is THERE. Even more "mild" optimizations tend to be frowned upon by so-called "serious roleplayers", saying it "detracts from the experience". Bullcrap. If the rules are so wrong, then why are any "serious role-players" playing D&D at all? And, by contrast, if all the "powergamers" care about is the number crunching, why the hell aren't they playing just another wargame? Let's face it. In order for a good story to be told, THERE NEEDS TO BE RULES. I'd even go so far as to say that having a DM is a monstrosity to actual role-play; the only reason we have for it is that the characters by themselves can only interact between themselves. I've been writing a story with a very good friend of mine for the better part of the last two or three years. The ground rules are simple. I don't control my friend's characters, and my friend doesn't control mine. Our story happens in two different, parallel worlds at once. For the most part, I control what happens in my side and she controls what happens on hers. On occasion, we switch who's controlling what. We've had very few arguments over "rules" and such for the whole period. We don't even so much as use a system to determine success. One character attempts something, the other character reacts, and we both accept or retcon what transpired as needed by the story. Ideally, D&D should be like that. We shouldn't NEED a DM. We shouldn't NEED rules, or even a system. But let's face it, we do need someone to coordinate and help us tell the story, and we need rules to determine the success and failure of our characters' actions. But the DM is only partially bound by the rules. If he decides that it takes a swift action to talk, then it takes a swift action to talk. Though D&D doesn't enforce this as strongly as other systems (let's be frank... how many books have been released "for DM eyes ONLY"?), it doesn't waive it, either. So it's up to the group's consensus on how this should work. Rules aren't supposed to suck the fun out of gaming, they're supposed to enhance it. I have two separate groups I game with, and I have fun with both. But I have to say that both groups could use improvement. Rules can only be bent or changed so far before the whole system falls over. Items/abilities/spells can only be forbidden so far until the players get sick of it. DMs can only be such bossy and railroading BASTARDS until the group gets fed up. What's important is to have fun. To have your character be all that he can be. To have the story unfold as well as it can! Enough of this "Role-playing versus Roll-playing" bigotry. Let's just FRIGGIN' PLAY!
VampyresThrenody 04-24-08, 03:19 PM	*EDIT DELETE*
elliott20 04-24-08, 04:57 PM	paragraphs are your friend. really.
Kuroimaken 05-05-08, 03:53 AM	I find it hilarious that there were more responses on CO than on CD...
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-05-08, 11:54 AM	:rolleyes: Problem is you're dealing with a perceived predjudice that simply doesn't exist... at least not at the perceived levels. While there are a few people who assume an optimized char is de facto poorly played most people on this board assume that if your on it you want to rp regardless of what your numbers are. While many here play lower power in order to get a thematic effect most of us simply don't make that assumption. The assumption that winds up getting made is that we will assume an optimized character is poorly written and lacks bg but very few of us do. In other words, sorry man but you're barkin at the shadows and not the undead kind.:rolleyes:
Kuroimaken 05-05-08, 08:13 PM	Problem is you're dealing with a perceived predjudice that simply doesn't exist... at least not at the perceived levels. While there are a few people who assume an optimized char is de facto poorly played most people on this board assume that if your on it you want to rp regardless of what your numbers are. While many here play lower power in order to get a thematic effect most of us simply don't make that assumption. The assumption that winds up getting made is that we will assume an optimized character is poorly written and lacks bg but very few of us do. In other words, sorry man but you're barkin at the shadows and not the undead kind. I'm not directing this at the people in these boards specifically. I'm directing it to the community in general. It is something I have perceived on several levels on people I game with, as well.
VampyresThrenody 05-06-08, 12:11 PM	I've never played with anyone that felt that way, at least not that said anything. I've always optimized (ish) and helped optimize PC's in games. That said we always 'optimize' both the character and the personality/story. How much fun is it to play the awesome swashbuckler-type character who simply never hits, deals damage or stands up to attacks? It's not. yes yes, the DM can fudge rolls, modify encounters, etc. But why bother when building the character is separate from building who your character is? Well anyway, this board doesn't get alot of attention from anyone so I'm surprised that you're surprised it didn't get much comment. Its also very likely those on the board ignored it due to the very poor design. Honestly, I only read the first and last paragraph or so since looking at all those words just hurts without paragraph blocks. Anyway, hope you manage to sort stuff out with your groups because you seem to primarily have issues with the way they play o.O