Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prak, the Mad 07-25-06, 08:39 PM	ok, for a little while now, I've been wondering about the feasibility of a Satanic paladin (as in, a paladin possessing the philosophy and world view posited by Anton Szandor LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan) I myself am a satanist, and thus have the neccessary literature to evaluate this myself, though I'd like other peoples' opinions on it... I've looked at the nine satanic statements and the Infernal Diatribe and examined the paladin's code of conduct against them, and found nothing particularly contradictory. Some finagling and "well, with a certain philosophy..." is neccessary, but nothng which changes the intent of the paladin, really. this is a link to the CoS website for those not familiar enough with the religion but intrigued by the character idea. The website uses flash, so I can't link you directly to the theory-practices page, but there's a link on the sidebar, sixth button down.: http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html basically my examination went as follows: Code of Conduct A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good. A satanist is not automatically CE, NE, LE, or any other alignment, we all choose our own side of the left hand path. We have our own heirarchy, thus we can and do respect authority(or at least we don't automatically disobey it) Lying, cheating, using poison, etc, while fun, are not required of a satanist by any stretch of the imagination. We help those we see fit, and punish those we see as deserving, so a part of the Paladin CoC is a tenant of the Satanic religion no problems with associates. 1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence! Paladins are not required to abstain from anything. 2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams! technically there's no such thing as a spiritual pipedream(LaVey is referring to the afterlife and divine favour) in D&D, as the after life and diven favour are quite provable things. 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit! Paladins are supposed to be wise, and they're not even allowed to deceive others, let alone themselves, so, no problem. 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates! this is what I referred to in the "protect innocents, punish the wicked" thing above in the paladin CoC 5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek! Paladins never turn the other cheek, and vengeance isn't inherently evil(hell, the god of it is LN[St. Cuthbert]) 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires! by Psychic Vampires LaVey refers to those who abuse the kindness of others. so this means that the satanist should hold people accountable of themselves and should not feel responsible for psychic vampires, and there's nothing against this in being a paladin, infact, a paladin should do this anyway. 7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all! no problem here. 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! let's examine the sins and see if any conflict with being a paladin: -Pride-many paladins are prideful anyway, and there's nothing in the code against it -Gluttony-again, nothing in the code against it, and while a paladin should prolly give a starving orphen his food before he himself eats, there's nothing saying a paladin cannot eat more than neccessary. -Lust-nothing against it in the CoC, doesn't hurt anyone, thus, paladins can be lustful -Envy-another "nothing against it in the CoC" one -Greed-while not admirable in a paladin, not against the CoC -Sloth-while a paladin should get off his ass and save those near him, there's nothing saying he can't sleep in or decide to not go help a kingdom on the other side of the continent -Wrath-another sin that paladin's are famous for anyway. 9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years! arguably, this is the role of a paladin too, and certainly nothing in the CoC about it 1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked. 2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them. both fine 3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. even more restricting than the paladin's CoC because it says nothing about obeying legimate authority, it tells you to respect who ever you visit, be it a Drow Queen in her palace or Bahamut in Celestia 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy. ...okay, a paladin would have to interpret this in a very specific way, but not one which ruins the intention. 5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal. clears up any questions about lust 6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved. an interesting commandment in that it's not exactly speaking of someone explicitly saying "Take this away from me", but rather you must be able to decide whether or not the person is burdened and desiring release. 7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained. this is actually about respecting the forces of magic, and not being a hypocrit. 8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself. no problem, and actually goes along with the idea of a paladin well 9. Do not harm little children. 10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. no problem, in fact works rather well with a paladin 11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. works well, no problem. 1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid. 2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not. 3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point. 4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit! 5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many. 6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world. 7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society. 8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it. 9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied. again, no problems, infact, a couple of those are considered sins for paladins anyway, not by rules text, but by flavour, specifically Stupidity, Pretentiousness, and Lack of Aesthetics(well, in a way, anyway). oh and: sol·ip·sism P Pronunciation Key (slp-szm, slp-) n. Philosophy The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified. The theory or view that the self is the only reality. so, what do you guys think? I would especially love to hear the opinions of another satanist or two(especially since they'll have insight into the Infernal Diatribe, which I don't have time for now.)
Stormbrand 07-25-06, 10:46 PM	Well, interesting. This is... new. I'll assume you are serious for the time being. First of all I am not a Satanist by any stretch of the imagination. I'm non-Christian, so I believe the devil is an excuse made up by cowards unable to accept the fact that we are all responsible for our own actions. Point 1 - I'm pretty sure debating real-life religion is prohibited on these forums. Not that I mind, but you might need to know. 2nd point - The d&d counterpart to Satan are fiends who are unquestionably evil. Compatability of your values aside, a demon-worshipping lawful good paladin is not an option. So what the paladin believes in is seperate to following that philosophy. Now. Overall comment; what I've read seems a more neutral religion than good or evil - a paladin would require a commitment to good, and would have to follow a good philosophy rather than a merely non-evil one. For the analysis part, there are a fair few difficulties worth raising. Originally Posted by The Nine Satanic Statements 1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence! Paladins are not required to abstain from anything. No, but indulgence is selfish by nature. Practising selfishness and indulgence leads to irresponsibility which can in turn have evil consequences, I would not allow a paladin to be so cavalier. Indulging in too much drink, for example, leaves the paladin completely unfit to fulfill his duty should the need arise. I would say placing one's own desires above duty is too selfish for a paladin and leads to failure in the Code of Conduct. 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit! Paladins are supposed to be wise, and they're not even allowed to deceive others, let alone themselves, so, no problem. Every faith claims to represent wisdom, your definitions as to what is wisdom and what is hypocritical self-deceit is what matters. 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates! this is what I referred to in the "protect innocents, punish the wicked" thing above in the paladin CoC Fair enough. Define deserving. Does 'deserving' from a Satanist perspective correlate to 'innocent' from a good-evil perspective. 5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek! Paladins never turn the other cheek, and vengeance isn't inherently evil(hell, the god of it is LN[St. Cuthbert]) Never? I would imagine a paladin would never kill over a personal insult, that would be evil. Good (which paladins champion) has some basis in forgiveness (in my opinion and most alignment sourcebooks - Champions of Valour, Book of Exalted Deeds). Indiscriminate vengeance is evil and also seems to bve what you describe. 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires! by Psychic Vampires LaVey refers to those who abuse the kindness of others. so this means that the satanist should hold people accountable of themselves and should not feel responsible for psychic vampires, and there's nothing against this in being a paladin, infact, a paladin should do this anyway. Agreed. Fine. The key word is 'abuse' though. Quote: 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! let's examine the sins and see if any conflict with being a paladin: -Pride-many paladins are prideful anyway, and there's nothing in the code against it -Gluttony-again, nothing in the code against it, and while a paladin should prolly give a starving orphen his food before he himself eats, there's nothing saying a paladin cannot eat more than neccessary. -Lust-nothing against it in the CoC, doesn't hurt anyone, thus, paladins can be lustful -Envy-another "nothing against it in the CoC" one -Greed-while not admirable in a paladin, not against the CoC -Sloth-while a paladin should get off his ass and save those near him, there's nothing saying he can't sleep in or decide to not go help a kingdom on the other side of the continent -Wrath-another sin that paladin's are famous for anyway. Here is where the problems begin. Acting out of a sin fairly reliably leads to evil consequences. Back to the first statement about indulgence. Pride - placing one's own desires above the welfare of others, usually an evil act. Many paladins are humble as well. To indulge in pride means such things as bigotry, seeking personal power and glory at the expense of others, disregard for the welfare of others, taking vengeance for personal reasons such as slights and insults (so harming the innocent), bullying = evil. Gluttony - fine, although he must know when to abstain rather than indulge. Although paladins tend to be large muscular gentlemen so they would logically have quite an appetite. Lust - fair enough. High Charisma comes in handy. Must respect the sanctity of marriage (no affairs) and no homewrecking/callously breaking hearts. No murdering a womans husband to make her single. Envy - indulging envy involves harming or stealing from others who have something you want. A combination of Pride and Greed. Envy also fosters resentment for others, which interferes with the goodness and compassion required for a paladin. Greed - indulging in greed is such activities as theft, refusing aid to the defenceless if they don't offer a reward, murder-for-hire. Need I go on? Sloth - in moderation. Laziness makes a poor paladin though since he does very little good with his time... and his power. Wrath - acting out-of-anger will result in an innocent being hurt sooner or later. To kill for personal reasons is an evil act, to beat someone up because of something they said is an evil act. . When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. even more restricting than the paladin's CoC because it says nothing about obeying legimate authority, it tells you to respect who ever you visit, be it a Drow Queen in her palace or Bahamut in Celestia Does 'show respect' forbid breaking down someones door and smiting them and rescueing their prisoners? Or does it forbid taking action against them? 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy. ...okay, a paladin would have to interpret this in a very specific way, but not one which ruins the intention. Causing harm over mere annoyance is evil. Interpret a VERY specific way. Needless cruelty is evil. Because they annoy you is needless. 11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. works well, no problem. Paladins protect the innocent and punish the guilty. That involves bothering alot of people. Usually the unrighteous. Destroying someone because they bother you is murder, and evil. Not knowing you, I cannot judge you as a person, but your definition of good falls very short of my definition of good. I dare say my standards are more appropriate for a paladin.
Prak, the Mad 07-26-06, 12:28 AM	Well, interesting. This is... new. I'll assume you are serious for the time being. I am. First of all I am not a Satanist by any stretch of the imagination. I'm non-Christian, so I believe the devil is an excuse made up by cowards unable to accept the fact that we are all responsible for our own actions. Point 1 - I'm pretty sure debating real-life religion is prohibited on these forums. Not that I mind, but you might need to know. 2nd point - The d&d counterpart to Satan are fiends who are unquestionably evil. Compatability of your values aside, a demon-worshipping lawful good paladin is not an option. So what the paladin believes in is seperate to following that philosophy.[/quote actually, first, Laveyan Satanists don't worship the Christian satan, at most they recognize satan as a pre-christian force of nature, whose role would be similar to Obad-hai. point one, well, I think it's more like insulting religions is prohibited, I've debated religion on other threads and they haven't been shut down. point two, like I said, not talking about the christian satan here, no devil worshipping actually happens, to quote Lavey and the satanic bible, "Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him... To the satanist "God"--by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all--is seen as the balancing factor in nature and not as being concerned with suffering." So a satanic paladin would believe the gods were created by the belief of the people, and would choose the god that suited him. One D&D "satanist" might worship Shar, while another might worship Hieroneus, and another might not worship one at all. [quote]Now. Overall comment; what I've read seems a more neutral religion than good or evil - a paladin would require a commitment to good, and would have to follow a good philosophy rather than a merely non-evil one. yeah, satanism is more of a neutral religion as far d&d goes, however, a paladin need not serve a diety, a paladin could worship a neutral god and serve the forces of good. For the analysis part, there are a fair few difficulties worth raising. figured there might. No, but indulgence is selfish by nature. Practising selfishness and indulgence leads to irresponsibility which can in turn have evil consequences, I would not allow a paladin to be so cavalier. Indulging in too much drink, for example, leaves the paladin completely unfit to fulfill his duty should the need arise. I would say placing one's own desires above duty is too selfish for a paladin and leads to failure in the Code of Conduct. it doesn't have to, one can indulge in such a way as to not hamper his abilities. A Satanism need not place his indulgence before his duty, actually. I would allow a paladin to be somewhat cavelier, so long as he put his desires second, which satanism actually advocates, otherwise nothing would really ever get done by us, the philosophy is something more along the lines of indulge your natural instincts and desires, but at the appropriate time. Every faith claims to represent wisdom, your definitions as to what is wisdom and what is hypocritical self-deceit is what matters. still doesn't mean a paladin couldn't follow a satanic philosophy. What Lavey meant by hypocritical self-deceit was the denial of one's natural instincts and desires because someone on high said they were "evil and despicale" desires. Fair enough. Define deserving. Does 'deserving' from a Satanist perspective correlate to 'innocent' from a good-evil perspective.[/quote not quite, however it does translate to something along the lines of "be kind to those who are kind to you, and repay those who injure you ten-fold.", beyond that, a satanist is also free to show kindness to anyone he sees as deserving, such as innocents and the down trodden, for example. [quote]Never? I would imagine a paladin would never kill over a personal insult, that would be evil. Good (which paladins champion) has some basis in forgiveness (in my opinion and most alignment sourcebooks - Champions of Valour, Book of Exalted Deeds). Indiscriminate vengeance is evil and also seems to be what you describe. certainly a paladin would not kill over a personal insult, though he may, and is allowed, to repay it with insult or challenge another to a duel if the insult is grave enough. and it's not speaking of indescriminate vengeance, it just says vengeance, and while the Infernal Diatribe does say "Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom--with compound interest liberally added there-unto. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over." however, it doesn't say "kill those who insult you" it just says to up the ante, so if some insults your nose, insult his family's honor, for example. Agreed. Fine. The key word is 'abuse' though. certainly. Quote: Here is where the problems begin. Acting out of a sin fairly reliably leads to evil consequences. Back to the first statement about indulgence. not neccessarily, think about what a druid would say about them, most of sins are just demonizations of natural acts and feelings. Pride - placing one's own desires above the welfare of others, usually an evil act. Many paladins are humble as well. To indulge in pride means such things as bigotry, seeking personal power and glory at the expense of others, disregard for the welfare of others, taking vengeance for personal reasons such as slights and insults (so harming the innocent), bullying = evil. actually, you describe compulsion, rather than indulgence, which satanism warns against. Gluttony - fine, although he must know when to abstain rather than indulge. Although paladins tend to be large muscular gentlemen so they would logically have quite an appetite. quite right, and like I said, satanism cautions to only indulge in the right time, in the hypothetical situation of a famine, an intelligent satanist who had no reason to hate the rest of the populace would eat only what he needs. Lust - fair enough. High Charisma comes in handy. Must respect the sanctity of marriage (no affairs) and no homewrecking/callously breaking hearts. No murdering a womans husband to make her single. certainly Envy - indulging envy involves harming or stealing from others who have something you want. A combination of Pride and Greed. Envy also fosters resentment for others, which interferes with the goodness and compassion required for a paladin. not neccesarily, even just saying "I wish I had one of those" and feeling no shame for doing so is indulging in envy. Greed - indulging in greed is such activities as theft, refusing aid to the defenceless if they don't offer a reward, murder-for-hire. Need I go on? yes, but it's also accepting money offered, accepting gifts you have no true neccessity for, accepting discounts you don't need to accept, etc. Sloth - in moderation. Laziness makes a poor paladin though since he does very little good with his time... and his power. certainly, however sloth could also entail doing a job the easiest way, ie, calling in some favors through a message spell rather than going across continant to help depose an evil ruler. Wrath - acting out-of-anger will result in an innocent being hurt sooner or later. To kill for personal reasons is an evil act, to beat someone up because of something they said is an evil act. to harbor hate or resentment in your heart is also an indulgence in wrath, reacting to a slight with another slight is indulging in wrath, a cautious satanist can indulge in wrath and not kill innocents Does 'show respect' forbid breaking down someones door and smiting them and rescueing their prisoners? Or does it forbid taking action against them? no, it means defering to their rules and desires if you're a guest, if you're there to rescue prisoners, you're more of an invader. Causing harm over mere annoyance is evil. Interpret a VERY specific way. Needless cruelty is evil. Because they annoy you is needless. Lavey was a spiteful misanthrope with a flair for dramatic wording, a paladin's interpretation could be punishing those who break the rules of their land/home, etc, ie, turning a rapist over to the town guard. Paladins protect the innocent and punish the guilty. That involves bothering alot of people. Usually the unrighteous. Destroying someone because they bother you is murder, and evil. again, dramatic wording, Lavey didn't advocate killing someone who bothered you, nor would he have been capable of such himself with every person who bothered him, destroy could simply mean reputation, and a paladin informing the town guards of a bandit outside of town that attempted to rob him, is technically destroying said bandit, if the bandit is outside the jurisdiction of the guards, the paladin could post a notice in a tavern, and offer to escort travelers past said bandit, who probably won't attempt to acost a paladin that's already defeated him once, thus destroying the bandit's hopes of stealing money. Not knowing you, I cannot judge you as a person, but your definition of good falls very short of my definition of good. I dare say my standards are more appropriate for a paladin. well, actually my definition of good is ...unclear, even to me, I know what I am, I know what christianity would regard me as, and I enjoy it, I'm just wondering if a satanic paladin could exist, and in my estimation, it could, it would be difficult to roleplay, but think of the *****s and tavern keepers that will enjoy some extra protection because a paladin "happened" to be near by. and about indulging in too much ale... I don't there's anything saying a Paladin couldn't qualify for drunken master...(kidding, sorta... could be an interesting character... especially if reflavoured to be something of a viking style class and the paladin was a paladin of odin...)
Prak, the Mad 07-26-06, 02:23 AM	please post if you have any thoughts people, I notice that this has been viewed 35 times already, and yet only one person has posted anything in reply, I really would like to play this character, and want other peoples' opinion on the feasibility.
Need_A_Life 07-26-06, 08:57 AM	This could work. You'd be more lawful than good, but still. Although I am not the best to ask on the subject of alignment, I feel very tempted to replace it with 'Honor' and 'Taint' because they're easier to define. I especially like: 3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. Which makes this paladin a lot more courteous than exalted paladins I've played beside (*kicks in door* "You have an appointment with my blade..."). I know I should not say this, but I think that this paladin would work best as a vampire, I don't know why. P.S. It's nice to learn something about philosophy...
King_of_the_squirrels 07-26-06, 10:33 AM	I think you should use the paladin of freedom variant from unearthed arcana. The players handbook gives the definition of good as "altruism, respect for life and concerned for the dignity of sentient beings". Satanism does respect life, especialy of children and animals (innocent life). Evil is defined as "hurting oppressing and killing others", and Satanists especialy don't like oppression. lawful people "respect authority honor and tradition" so certainly tradition and likely authority are not on the top of a satanists list. chaotic people "follow their conscience, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition and do what they promise if they feel like it" wich sounds like the more appropriate alignment. Read the Chaotic Good "Rebel" on page 105 of the Phb because i'm not 100% sure, but to my knowledge satanists use "the devil" as a symbol of rebellion and don't really worship an ouside entity, but rather celabrate themselves and others.
Devlonir 07-26-06, 11:59 AM	Yeah, i agree that this concept could work as a paladinish (new word, nice) character. But you should really consider the alignment you choose to represent. There are many rules for alignment variant paladins out there, and most are actually quite easy to create. So go for it! Consider which alignment works best for your concept and work on that. I noticed one thing in your entire monologue about the satanic paladin, which i wish to point out. When you went down the list, some things were said to be possible because a paladin could do it, or because his code nowhere forbids him to do something, and so on and so on. In my gaming group, and every time i or anyone i know ever played a well roleplayed paladin, the paladin was more then just someone who followed his code but he went far above it. Paladins are examples of their belief. People look up to them and consider them mortal examples to follow. That is because Paladins go further then their code forbids them, as long as it is in the spirit of their code. So, your first opinion about paladins being allowed to do this is right, but if a paladin would actually do it, is the question. So, as an ending statement, i once again say.. go for an alignment variant of the paladin class and also remember when you actually get to playing it that you are not just a satanist, you are an example of the near perfect and flawless satanist. An example to all other satanists. Hope this helped you out.
Prak, the Mad 07-26-06, 04:51 PM	This could work. You'd be more lawful than good, but still. Although I am not the best to ask on the subject of alignment, I feel very tempted to replace it with 'Honor' and 'Taint' because they're easier to define. I agree, but even honor/taint doesn't work too well because they're not mutually exclusive(they're not conducive to one another either, though) I especially like: Which makes this paladin a lot more courteous than exalted paladins I've played beside (*kicks in door* "You have an appointment with my blade..."). lol, well, technically a satanic paladin coulld still do that, because then he's not a guest, he's an invader. :D I know I should not say this, but I think that this paladin would work best as a vampire, I don't know why. entirely possible, and could be very interesting. P.S. It's nice to learn something about philosophy... glad I could inform lawful people "respect authority honor and tradition" so certainly tradition and likely authority are not on the top of a satanists list. chaotic people "follow their conscience, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition and do what they promise if they feel like it" wich sounds like the more appropriate alignment. Read the Chaotic Good "Rebel" on page 105 of the Phb because i'm not 100% sure, but to my knowledge satanists use "the devil" as a symbol of rebellion and don't really worship an ouside entity, but rather celabrate themselves and others. true, it would work better that way, I've actually been thinking about using one of the non-lawful paladins(I've got a dragon magazine with five new paladins in it). but I really like the idea of a satanic LG paladin, and(I never thought I'd say this, but) law isn't inherently oppresive, and one can be a rebel and Lawful Yeah, i agree that this concept could work as a paladinish (new word, nice) character. But you should really consider the alignment you choose to represent. There are many rules for alignment variant paladins out there, and most are actually quite easy to create. So go for it! Consider which alignment works best for your concept and work on that. my concept is just satanic paladin right now, and since it's possible to play a LG satanist, I think that's what I'll do. I noticed one thing in your entire monologue about the satanic paladin, which i wish to point out. When you went down the list, some things were said to be possible because a paladin could do it, or because his code nowhere forbids him to do something, and so on and so on. In my gaming group, and every time i or anyone i know ever played a well roleplayed paladin, the paladin was more then just someone who followed his code but he went far above it. Paladins are examples of their belief. People look up to them and consider them mortal examples to follow. That is because Paladins go further then their code forbids them, as long as it is in the spirit of their code. So, your first opinion about paladins being allowed to do this is right, but if a paladin would actually do it, is the question. good point, however, that has to do more with the individual paladin's philosophy, and paladin's were created based on a christian philosophy, so they're often played with a similar world view, thus they restrict themselves more than they are required to. so, onto this: So, as an ending statement, i once again say.. go for an alignment variant of the paladin class and also remember when you actually get to playing it that you are not just a satanist, you are an example of the near perfect and flawless satanist. An example to all other satanists. the example could merely be one of helping the innocent, punishing the guilty and still being a satanist. Hope this helped you out. It did thanks to all of you for replying.
Wyrmul 07-26-06, 06:34 PM	It really comes down to how far sighted the pc is. And whether or not the PC does good consistantly, even if an evil act would be a more benifiical path. Most of the long practicing satanists I have known or spoken to tend towards the good alignments in my opinion. While they do support personal freedom they have an understanding that following the "Do as thou will" without thought of the long term concequenses is not in your best interest. They tend to be friendly to other, supporing of the community, and generous with their resources, because that tends to produce a better quality of life than being a jerk that sucks as much out of the community and is miserly with their resources (be them time, money, food, or knowlege). The only problem is that a satanist would (tend to) not have an issue with commiting an evil act for the greater good. If confronted by the BBGwho threatens them and their community there would be little compunction against using an assasin to take him out. A not paladinish (what a loveley word) act. However it would fit in closer with the knight class from PHBII. A code of behavior without restrictions on good or evil acts. It would fit the more Lawful Neutral satanist that I see you working towards.
Prak, the Mad 07-26-06, 07:06 PM	well, I'm actually trying to make it a lawful good character, I'm glad my fellows have conducted themselves as better examples of our philosophy than I have(still working on the jerk that sucks things out of his community thing myself) however, I am considering other alignments, specifically NG, mostly because I don't like the fact that the paladin of freedom can't aid lawful purposes, basically, I really want the character to be good aligned, I actually briefly considered making him a vivacious creature(positive energy equivalent of fiendish or celestial), but I don't want him to be so alien(incorporeal.) so far I'm thinking Human Paladin(or Sentinel, the NG paladin from Dragon)
Stormbrand 07-26-06, 09:06 PM	First of all, forgive me if I seemed a suspiscious <insert insult here>, taking things at face value doesn't come naturally to me. actually, first, Laveyan Satanists don't worship the Christian satan, at most they recognize satan as a pre-christian force of nature, whose role would be similar to Obad-hai. point one, well, I think it's more like insulting religions is prohibited, I've debated religion on other threads and they haven't been shut down. point two, like I said, not talking about the christian satan here, no devil worshipping actually happens, to quote Lavey and the satanic bible, "Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him... To the satanist "God"--by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all--is seen as the balancing factor in nature and not as being concerned with suffering." So a satanic paladin would believe the gods were created by the belief of the people, and would choose the god that suited him. One D&D "satanist" might worship Shar, while another might worship Hieroneus, and another might not worship one at all. Wow, that was news to me. Thank you for clearing up that preconception. I guess even I end up with misinformation sometimes. :embarrass true, it would work better that way, I've actually been thinking about using one of the non-lawful paladins(I've got a dragon magazine with five new paladins in it). but I really like the idea of a satanic LG paladin, and(I never thought I'd say this, but) law isn't inherently oppresive, and one can be a rebel and Lawful As a thought, lawful is very much about being trustworthy, forthright and sincere. There is also a belief in order and a preference for structure. I good way for your paladin to be lawful is trying to change the existing sytem or create a new one so that the resulting system does better serve good. The only problem is that a satanist would (tend to) not have an issue with commiting an evil act for the greater good. If confronted by the BBGwho threatens them and their community there would be little compunction against using an assasin to take him out. A not paladinish (what a loveley word) act. Using an assassin is percieved as unpaladinish. Eliminating the BBEG with stealth and cunning would be fine by a serious paladin and completely acceptable, some of the younger and more naive paladins have yet to figure this out with. Using an Assassin as in the prestige class would require aiding the organisation in some way and that would be supporting evil. A very subtle distinction... part of why I love playing paladins. yeah, satanism is more of a neutral religion as far d&d goes, however, a paladin need not serve a diety, a paladin could worship a neutral god and serve the forces of good. Can work. Also from your point above Satanism/Satanist philosophy does not prohibit worshipping heironious or pelor or a LG god, perhaps very jaded for a paladin but would make for some interesting role-playing. figured there might. Not often I get out-sarcasmed. actually, you describe compulsion, rather than indulgence, which satanism warns against. Interesting. From the part about indulgence over abstainance I infered that abstaining from things was discouraged. If a satanic paladin (I love that phrase) can still abstain when there would be consequences to indulgence, that is fine.
WizO_Autumn 07-26-06, 11:14 PM	Same rule goes here as for any religious type discussion-- Make sure it stays about the game. If this wanders into a real world debate, the thread will be shut down. Just a fair warning.
R2-DS 07-26-06, 11:49 PM	I think that perhaps you may be be better served with levels of Favoured soul and perhaps the PRC Divine Champion to round out your Paladin like abilities. That will lesson the alignment concerns.
Prak, the Mad 07-27-06, 12:33 AM	First of all, forgive me if I seemed a suspiscious <insert insult here>, taking things at face value doesn't come naturally to me. it's okay, we get used to people being skeptical. Wow, that was news to me. Thank you for clearing up that preconception. I guess even I end up with misinformation sometimes. :embarrass not a problem, we generally expect that to come up at least in any given discussion. As a thought, lawful is very much about being trustworthy, forthright and sincere. There is also a belief in order and a preference for structure. I good way for your paladin to be lawful is trying to change the existing sytem or create a new one so that the resulting system does better serve good. good point, Lavey does point out that systems and tradition must be changed from time to time when they no longer serve the needs of the people. Using an assassin is percieved as unpaladinish. Eliminating the BBEG with stealth and cunning would be fine by a serious paladin and completely acceptable, some of the younger and more naive paladins have yet to figure this out with. Using an Assassin as in the prestige class would require aiding the organisation in some way and that would be supporting evil. A very subtle distinction... part of why I love playing paladins.[/quote] lol, stealth and cunning are perfect tools to be put into a paladins toolbox to be used when appropriate. the Assassin PrC is another never ending alignment related debate... hiring a neutral assassin would be perfectly fine, hiring a slayer of domiel even better. Can work. Also from your point above Satanism/Satanist philosophy does not prohibit worshipping heironious or pelor or a LG god, perhaps very jaded for a paladin but would make for some interesting role-playing. yup, though I'm actually thinking of playing a half-cervidal that believes the demon-lord Baphomet stole the title and must be slain that the true baphomet can arrise(who wouldn't be a fiend...) Not often I get out-sarcasmed. lol Interesting. From the part about indulgence over abstainance I infered that abstaining from things was discouraged. If a satanic paladin (I love that phrase) can still abstain when there would be consequences to indulgence, that is fine. well, there's a time and place for everything. Same rule goes here as for any religious type discussion-- Make sure it stays about the game. If this wanders into a real world debate, the thread will be shut down. Just a fair warning. good to know Autumn, thanks. I think that perhaps you may be be better served with levels of Favoured soul and perhaps the PRC Divine Champion to round out your Paladin like abilities. That will lesson the alignment concerns. except the goal here is to create a LG Paladin Satanist.
Need_A_Life 07-27-06, 02:15 PM	agree, but even honor/taint doesn't work too well because they're not mutually exclusive(they're not conducive to one another either, though) What I meant was that the alignment field could say "Lightly Tainted, Highly honorable" or "No Taint, Dishonorable" or anything like that, Taint and Honor would be axises (as in law/chaos and good/evil) About the paladin, I would probably expect to get into trouble with the DM, give him a code of conduct (based on this obviously) and tell him that this is the code he'll be keeping to, even if it isn't the traditional paladin code.
Prak, the Mad 07-27-06, 04:24 PM	What I meant was that the alignment field could say "Lightly Tainted, Highly honorable" or "No Taint, Dishonorable" or anything like that, Taint and Honor would be axises (as in law/chaos and good/evil) oh, I thought you meant the taint and honor rules in UA About the paladin, I would probably expect to get into trouble with the DM, give him a code of conduct (based on this obviously) and tell him that this is the code he'll be keeping to, even if it isn't the traditional paladin code. that's what I was thinking I'd do. though I'm thinking of running this character in an online game, and I pointed the likely dm to this thread.
Kresalak 07-28-06, 05:06 PM	that's what I was thinking I'd do. though I'm thinking of running this character in an online game, and I pointed the likely dm to this thread. Yeah, I can help you work out a Code. Could you possibly write out something more... succinct? Something that could easily be referenced and understood? Basically, like the Paladin Code should be, unlike the vague, useless thing it is now.
Prak, the Mad 07-29-06, 02:34 AM	yeah, I'll type up something more succint, or at least something compiling the 29 satanic tenants without breaks for my analysis.
Radijs 07-29-06, 04:14 PM	In all honesty I don't think this could work as a paladin's code. Though you can explain the statements as "good" but by doing so you take them completely away from the meaning Lavey gave to them. Read part V of the book of satan and you should immediately realize why this won't work. The first sentence from book V explains it all: 1. Blessed are the strong, for they shall possess the earth - Cursed are the weak, for they shall inherit the yoke! And the entire chapter continues in the same manner. Satanism preaches that you should take what you can. Because you deserve what you can take. Might makes right and all that. And from that argument should the nine statements be interpreted. 1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! This life is the one that is important so you must revel in your existance. Eat to your hearts content, drink yourself silly. 2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! This life is important. Focus your energy on what you can achieve here and now. There is no judgement after death. 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit! Don't believe the lies that others tell you. You make your own truth. 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! Who deserves your kindness? Those who will reward your kindness. Sow only where you can reap your rewards. 5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! If someone wrongs you then you must wrong him. With interest if possible. Through this you can show your strength to others so they will fear you and submit to you. 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires! You are responsible for your own actions and I am in no way obligated to help you solve yours. 7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development", has become the most vicious animal of all! This is just a general stab at any kind of religion that imposes rules or a code of conduct on people. You are just an animal and you should follow your instincts. 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! Again the overtone is gratification. As long as I get what I want its all good. 9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years! Another little stab at the church. An attempt to anger the more 'devout' christians. Putting all this together I say no. Satanism isn't a good choice for a paladin. Now a blackguard however...
Prak, the Mad 07-29-06, 04:43 PM	In all honesty I don't think this could work as a paladin's code. Though you can explain the statements as "good" but by doing so you take them completely away from the meaning Lavey gave to them. Read part V of the book of satan and you should immediately realize why this won't work. The first sentence from book V explains it all: And the entire chapter continues in the same manner. Satanism preaches that you should take what you can. Because you deserve what you can take. Might makes right and all that. And from that argument should the nine statements be interpreted. 1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! This life is the one that is important so you must revel in your existance. Eat to your hearts content, drink yourself silly. 2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! This life is important. Focus your energy on what you can achieve here and now. There is no judgement after death. 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit! Don't believe the lies that others tell you. You make your own truth. 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! Who deserves your kindness? Those who will reward your kindness. Sow only where you can reap your rewards. 5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! If someone wrongs you then you must wrong him. With interest if possible. Through this you can show your strength to others so they will fear you and submit to you. 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires! You are responsible for your own actions and I am in no way obligated to help you solve yours. 7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development", has become the most vicious animal of all! This is just a general stab at any kind of religion that imposes rules or a code of conduct on people. You are just an animal and you should follow your instincts. 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! Again the overtone is gratification. As long as I get what I want its all good. 9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years! Another little stab at the church. An attempt to anger the more 'devout' christians. Putting all this together I say no. Satanism isn't a good choice for a paladin. Now a blackguard however... *sigh*...*grin*you're right, you explained better than I could, I read through the infernal diatribe, but my logic was flawed(damn my self-deceit, I must go to a bar and pick up someone to help me with my "penance"...*grin*) however, you've made the character a lot more interesting and alot easier now, I'm thinking LE Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguad?
Radijs 07-29-06, 04:59 PM	My dad was a preacher looks like I gained some skill ranks as well. I wouldn't say of tyrrany because satanism doesn't really go on about putting other people down, just taking whats rightfully yours. And that fits more the flavour of the antipaladin.
Prak, the Mad 07-29-06, 05:15 PM	lol, more like you're arguement was better destined to success than mine because you weren't trying to shoehorn things together.. and you're right about the law/chaos thing, I don't know I think the way I've got this character in my mind it keeps saying "Lawful", think chaotics would be likely to have a "knightly" order?(I'm thinking of integrating the "Order of the Black Dragon" into this character...) this: The Order of the Black Dragon website (http://www.geocities.com/draconisblkthn/churchmain2.html) (beware, the profanity that is geocities controls the site... also midi heavy... apparently knights are new as this whole internet thing...)
Radijs 07-29-06, 05:20 PM	Lawful is just a word and this is in its own way a code of conduct. The knights of the black dragon may have set up a code to keep things organised. Since their beliefs teaches them to respect personal strength its going to be drow-like in the aspect that your path to the top spot will be littered with the corpses of those who stood in your way. This code of conduct can say that you're only allowed to kill another knight in a challenged duel or if you can assasinate him without anyone finding out it was you.
Prak, the Mad 07-29-06, 05:45 PM	good point, thanks. so are you a satanist or have you just studied satanism?
Radijs 07-29-06, 06:05 PM	I've studied it briefly as well as christianity, bhuddism and egyptology. I liked talking to my dad about those subjects, he taught me most of what I know. Though he never read the satanic bible as far as I know.
Prak, the Mad 07-29-06, 06:15 PM	ah, well, it's good to have a religious scholar upon these boards.