Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thaebius 07-30-05, 11:27 PM	Ok, so I'm starting a character in Forgotten Realms in a new campaign. I've always before played the "dark, misunderstood hero", and that is Definitely played out for me. However, I was thinking of taking this opportunity to take advantage of my typical gaming group. I want to play the "dark, misunderstood hero" who is in fact, Not misundersood, and a helluva lot more dark than his fellow adventurers realize. Basically, Evil, wholly so, who pretends to be good so as to be allied with his fellow PCs, for his own motives and for his own gain. One who would subtly suggest evil, or at least less than clearly good, tactics, that they "do what needed to be done", etc, always Be evil, and pursue their own agenda behind the backs of their "friends". And I have no plans of having him redeemed, or anything of the sort. Now, I don't know class yet. I've been toying with the idea of a warlock, tiefling sorcerer, etc so as to make it so they Should realize what an evil SOB he is were they not far too trusting, or even with a paladin/Blackguard who pretends to still be a paladin, bluffing his way along for sheer evil delights, etc etc etc. I've also played with concepts of being whatever I feel like, for class stuff can be done independantly, so all of that we'll see down the road. What I need help with is in fleshing out this evil in disguise as a PC bit, creating more backstory, and help in figuring out just how good/ evil he would be willing to act. I've had several delightful encounters in games with evil characters acting wholly good for a full 30 years, for One chance carefully maneuvered for them to become a God. That is the kind of evil I'm talking about. What might be my goals, too? What might I hope to accomplish at the end of the day? Who might I possibly serve? My DM tossed out Bane as an idea, I like that. He seems intelligently and cruelly evil enough to have his servants pretend to be legit and act wholly good long enough to gain the power to do blatant evil, it suits his style. Any help in any area would be appreciated, I really need this fleshed out more, and am groping for ideas on my own, so toss out anything, anything at all, the more the merrier. Thanks in advance!
TheMightyMcClaw 07-30-05, 11:53 PM	I like the cut of your jib. I think that character is a really great idea. It seems that dark, brooding antiheroes are growing day by day.... it's about time evil men got wise. The dark paladin who isn't really a paladin at all seems like a cool idea to me. It might be fun to multiclass a bit into warlock or cleric (of some evil god) or the like, to represent a hidden pact with dark powers. You would still primarily seem to be something other than an evil magician, yet you could still occasionally bust out some evil magic. Since you've played this type of character before, I'm sure you know the essentials of the archetype: some kind of a vendetta, a lost love, etc. Perhaps you're character could fabricate some kind of "dark past" to help dupe his allies?
Nor'Morgwae 07-31-05, 03:04 AM	How about something along the lines of an evil Aragorn. An individual with a blood claim to the throne but who lacks the political backing to try for it. So he signed up with a band of do-gooders to increase his reputation and rally the common people behind him. He will do very heroic and good things so long as someone will hear about them. He should take Leadership and get himself a bard. or The tielfling who seeks to become a full blood demon. He will sacrifice gold and other material possesions in spades to find the secret knowledge that will allow him to ascend to the ranks of the underworld. He mascarades as a demon hunter putting his knowledge of evil outsiders to work. He may do some curious things like taking blood or scales from his fallen foes to analise and seek the process to make himself more like them. This would work with the Blackguard you were thinking about as well.
Sluagh 07-31-05, 03:51 AM	Awesome character idea. Have you thought about the Succubus/Incubus class in Savage Species? They are, by nature, that sort of subtle, seductive evil you're describing and would have mad bonuses to Charisma based efforts to do so. Their Alternate Form ability allows them to walk among others in disguise indefinately too. I think it would be awesome if you waited to see how your campaign mates flesh out their characters, their backgrounds and such. Make your character hold one of them as a nemesis, crosslinking your backstory with theirs and providing you a reason for travelling with them bringing about evil as subtley as possible. If it's ever discovered, that could make for an awesome encounter or series of encounters.
Need_A_Life 07-31-05, 08:33 AM	If you have Savage Species I'd recommend the Imp class, you get an alternate form pretty early and it's not a very long class. Otherwise try this concept I've been toying with for some time: He grew up as a slave, he and his entire family are descendants of people who were taken to the Nine Hells to mine a certain metal that is particulary potent against angels after a ritual (read: pretty d**n rare). The slaves are forced to swear a vow of poverty (try to get you DM to let you have an evil version of it) that allows the Pit Fiend looking over them to kill them all if they break the vow (read: no weapons against CR 18 creature :( ). Now, demons decided to break the rules of engagement and attack the mines (as a part of the blood war) and killed several devils. During the battles all sorts of spells flew through the air and he was struck by a Plane Shift spell. He landed in the wilderness. He kills devils with all the eager of a paladin but it's for personal revenge. He is quite angry with devils and consider them kill-on-sight. A few levels of Warlock could represent the taint of evil that was laid upon him when he swore his oath that awakened when he escaped from the Nine Hells (and thereby the bond of the Pit Fiend).
braindead345 08-02-05, 02:36 AM	I would suggest getting ahold of George MacDonald Fraiser's Flashman series. The hero is greedy, shallow, vain, cowardly, and sex-obsessed. He also opertunistic, cunning and lucky. All of which adds up to make a likable yet very evil character. Once you get the feel for the Flashman character, you can easily adapt the character's attitude to your own character. Let's face it, most player-characters are driven by greed and ego. Their desires for fame, power and wealth only prove that "good" characters are secretly evil. Does your party's paladin donate more than the 10% required? If he was truely noble, wouldn't the paladin donate his entire share of the treasure (minus living expenses or living on the charity of others)? All I'm saying is why not be up front about our own inate evil. Back in the early '80's, Dragon Magazine rated Daffy Duck's alignment as CE. That, my friends, is the best endorsement for allowing players to play evil characters I have ever herd.
Grem of Surkh 08-02-05, 10:59 AM	I hope that your group is very forgiving for the disruption...
Otogi 08-02-05, 11:37 AM	A Yuan-ti Tainted one, because they are easier to see as good ecuase they look human. I would go for a Ranger or Cleircal character.
Uberwoot 08-02-05, 12:10 PM	I can plug an idea that you might be able to work into any of the character suggestions above. It's a character concept I've played before with great success: crafty paladin pretender. Try a character who plays the paladin with high charisma and otherwise strong leadership qualities, but is rotten to the core: he enjoys leading others who might aspire to the true path of paladinhood astray. He encourages acts of questionable morality in other characters because he enjoys seeing them fail. Perhaps he just hates the "goody-two-shoes" side of humankind or revels in the personal power he can demonstrate by it- or perhaps he despises a deity (or all good deities) and wants to see all who revere that deity (or deities) to abandon his true teachings. Either way, he does his best to make less-than-moral acts seem alright, encouraging the killing of unconscious foes or prisoners, stealing valuable items as gifts to their church, and the like.
Morka 08-02-05, 02:41 PM	You might want to worship Gargauth. He's a lesser LE god of betrayal and corruption. The way you always talk about redeeming but never doing it, always suggest the evil way to do, it really fit Gargauth. Now about the class and background. Your father is a dirigeant of a mercantile organisation (perhaps the Iron Throne could be good for that, but I'm not sure). Because of this, you have better prices on weapons; you are yourself a great weaponcraft. Assuming the party is in a mission for some city, you might have been "imposed" there by the Iron Throne, against great discount on weapons and armors. Your goal is to become rich by selling weapons. You might encourage conflict between goblinoids and orcs only to sell them more weapons.
HawkeyeL781 08-02-05, 06:58 PM	Perhaps you could make the character very loyal to the other party members. Lost his family or something and now the party is sort of like his family so he has sworn to protect them. Going with the death of his family idea, it has driven him to extreme anger, he not only wants revenge on those that killed them but the world in general. Maybe not so out right as too walk into a town and slaughter all the inhabitants but just so he will do anything in his favor or to make them slaughter (i.e. kills a local farmers cow to feed himself even though he knows the farmer will starve without the cow.) Since he is loyal to the other party members he will do evil things to aid them (i.e. Party member is jipped when buying a weapon, your character comes back that night and sets fire to the store.) He doesn't necissarily have to be evil to do evil tasks, he could be CN or LN, thinking that getting revenge on all that wrong him, even for the smallest things, he is doing the right thing. Just an idea.
Morka 08-03-05, 08:41 AM	Perhaps you could make the character very loyal to the other party members. Lost his family or something and now the party is sort of like his family so he has sworn to protect them. Going with the death of his family idea, it has driven him to extreme anger, he not only wants revenge on those that killed them but the world in general. Maybe not so out right as too walk into a town and slaughter all the inhabitants but just so he will do anything in his favor or to make them slaughter (i.e. kills a local farmers cow to feed himself even though he knows the farmer will starve without the cow.) Since he is loyal to the other party members he will do evil things to aid them (i.e. Party member is jipped when buying a weapon, your character comes back that night and sets fire to the store.) He doesn't necissarily have to be evil to do evil tasks, he could be CN or LN, thinking that getting revenge on all that wrong him, even for the smallest things, he is doing the right thing. Just an idea. That would make an interresting LE follower of Hoar, the god of Poetic Revenge. Talk with a spanish accent and say things like: "Thou killed my familly; prepare to die!" only to have the rest of the party tell you that you don't have the good target...
nephtis 08-04-05, 05:35 AM	What time is this campaign set? Before or after the Times of Trouble? I once had a character worship Cyric, not in all of his aspects but mainly as 'the prince of lies'. That worked out fine. She argued that any mortal who rose and claimed godhood had earned her admiration and set an example for what ambition can get you. Very power-hungry rogue... (spy trying to get influential -earning the favour of local nobles, acting good like you plan to do- and become one of the people pulling the strings. Not planning to be a public figure though.)
Thaebius 08-07-05, 04:12 PM	Thanks for all the ideas! In particular, I Really like the racial suggestions, I think a person "tainted" who is "seeking to prove that though the taint may exist in his body, it does not exist in his soul" (yeah right) Really fits well with that. So far, I have him as a "tainted" near-human race (tiefling, yuan-ti tainted one, etc) who seeks either to- a) Become fully Demon b) Become a God c) Conquer the world with an army of undead- (Warcraft 3 Plauge style, but with shades or other undead that generate more undead) For the first one, Wizard or Sorcerer really fits, but it's a bit cliche, and I don't know if I could hide how evil I am well enough with that. Evil Cleric seems to fit the other two really well, and is currently the direction I'm leaning. Not being able to cast spontaneous cure spells can be covered up by memorizing a lot of healing spells, as well as eventually a wand of cure light wounds. Now, some additional concerns- what is a good diety to "worship" from forgotten realms? By which I don't mean actually worship, I've got that covered (either Bane or Cyric, either way looking to eventually pull a Cyric), but moreso what is a good diety to pretend to worship in front of my party? I've vaugely got an inclination towards St. Cuthbert, but that seems too obvious. I don't want the rest of my party to know immediately that I'm evil, I want when they find out, should they ever, for it to be such an absolute surprise they don't even believe it, I want their sense of betrayal to be complete. Should it ever come to that. I also want them, if it's ever revealed to them how Much Evil they've done at my nudging suggestions, to be truly appalled and horrified. With that in mind, what is a "goody goody" diety I could pretend to worship, someone whose clerics are supposed to be truly and wholly good, and everyone knows it, but isn't Focused particularly upon good (so not Ilmater or anyone like that, where playing the part forces me to do acts of good, more like Moradin or somesuch, where the good is just unquestioningly assumed, but his goals and focus are not upon the spreading of good itself- and without the racial implications)? Also, I want to be a follower of an Evil God, but I don't want to neccessarily draw my power from them, at least not at the end, for I know they won't tolerate my aspirations to Godhood, even if I might be a valuable ally... so, I would want to draw my power seperately from them. Is that possible? I know it depends on the DM, but I mean even in theory. Could he, as he gains levels, research how to draw his power from the evil forces of the cosmos themselves, severing eventually his "dependancy" on his God? More thoughts and inputs would be highly welcomed. More to come as I refine this in my mind, too.
Morka 08-07-05, 09:34 PM	You might want to check the Ur-Priest PrC, I don't remember from which book. They don't worship the gods, they "steal" their spells from the gods. For a god to worship, it depend. I guess it should be a god with domains similar to yours. For example, I once played with a PC cleric of Sseth, but she was carrying an Holy Symbol of Finder Wyvernspur, for a "reason" to have the Reptiles (or Saurials?) domain. You might want to worship Velsharoon (God of Necromancy) and pretend to worship Mystra, Azuth or Savras. That last one might be better because he's a "yonger" god, since he was recently release from Azuth's Staff. Or you may want to worship Malar, and pretend to worship Selune, Mielikki or Lurue. Same thing for Beshabe and Tymora. Tymora can be a good cover if you worship Cyric. Bane is harder to disguise; perhaps Tyr?
drakintana 08-08-05, 03:41 AM	If you want to be evilbut not for your party to find out until later on I would suggest that you become a monk. You can then take the tatooed monk later and get the white mask tatoo. It hides your alignment and gives a nifty bonus on bluff checks. Also being a monk can let you be brutally efficient whene it comes to dealing with others. :D
Elussan of the Bow 08-08-05, 08:49 AM	You may want to reconsider the evil cleric idea for the fact that evil clerics wield evil holy symbols. The minute you try to rebuke or command undead, the rest of your party will be on to you. Plus, if there's a paladin in the party, your evil outsider(tiefling race)/evil cleric HD will bump up your evil aura. I'm running a game right now where up until recently the mostly good party had a LE rogue travelling with them. The first chance he got, he purchased a ring of mind-shielding. He also never spoke, only communicated through messages written down on parchment. I would suggest going with a class that does not involve displaying unholy symbols of your deity. You can worship evil deities without showing it; how many christians are there out there who don't where the cross around their necks? I would also suggest trying to hook up with a cult or evil organization, like the Zhentarim or the Cult of the Dragon, a.s.a.p. for the sake of someone having your back if your group ever turns on you. Also, a connection with the Black Network could get you supplies, items, etc. at a black market cost.
Fithero 08-08-05, 09:11 AM	Perhaps an evil druid or ranger, each of them could claim truthfully to fight for nature, just not what aspect. A druid doesnt need to display a holy symbol and gets the same spells no matter what and they get healing spells. And if your a ranger, you could worship malar or something, and make your fav. enemy humans.
Thaebius 08-11-05, 04:35 PM	Thank you all so much!! Especially the comment on the Ur-Priest, I looked into it, and it is PERFECT for him. Here, an updated version of the backstory, first as he presents it to others, and then as it truly is for him. -------------------------------------------------------------- "I was raised by my mother, a beautiful elven sorceress, and my father, a tiefling. They tried their best to teach me righteousness and good, but the taint in my father's blood must have been too much, for I was a terror. I strayed from the path of virtue, badly. I even at one point dabbled in dark magics. The one thing that saved me was my mentor. An adventuring priest of Helm, he took it upon himself to explain to me the error of my ways, to show by example his virtue, and to teach me of his God. I learned of the discipline and Strength offered by his way of life, and saw in it a means to master the darkness within my soul. I now fight for Helm, vanquishing evil wherever I may, hoping that by doing so, I may also vanquish whatever evil resides still in my soul." ------------------------------------------------- In reality- Most of that is true, to an extent. Most good lies are. He was raised by a tiefling warlock and an elven sorceress, and his mother, the sorceress, was indeed neutral with good tendancies. She joined forces with the warlock, and in time, grew to love him, though he was evil. She demonstrated time and time again the long term tactical advantage of doing "good" things, and helped him gain significant power legitimately, with only a rare assassination or other evil maneuver. In time, he grew to love her, as well, and they begat a son. He quickly realized the power that dwelled within him, and hungered for more. He was told the stories of his parents previous deeds as examples of the pitfalls of evil, but failed to grasp the moral of the story, seeing only how much power it gained them. In time, he grew to resent the weakness in his father- he saw in his mind how much power he Could have had, were he not "tamed" by his overly soft mother. Having mastered his inherited power as best as he could, he set off to gain such power for himself. At first, he was reckless, blatant, stupid. He used his power wontonly, and made enemies quickly, who were much more powerful than he. Much of the next two years were spent residing in prison cells. At one point, he crossed an adventuring party, managing to kill one of them with his "ambush" tactics before being subdued. The leader intended to kill him, but their Cleric, a cleric of Helm, stopped them from doing so, saying he saw the potential in the boy, if only he could be made to see the error of his ways. He was given over to the cleric as a pupil, and the cleric talked many, many long nights with him about his past, and his future. The cleric taught him of the strength of his mother- how she had successfully infiltrated a group of considerable power, and turned them to her own means in time. He taught him of the power of his father, even after he was turned, how subtle manipulation and tactics can overcome brute force. Though he was confused as to why the moral was more "don't be stupid, don't be obvious" than "don't be good", he grew to truly appreciate the lessons. Eventually, the cleric revealed himself- he was, in fact, an Ur-Priest. One who stole their power from the Gods. In awe, he resolved to be like him, and eagerly accepted training. He was taught how to gain power unlike any he had ever hoped for, as well as how to imitate successfully the mannerisms of a "holy man", and other useful things. When he had learned as much as he could, he set off, as a "repentant, reformed sinner", posing as a Cleric of Helm as his mentor had. Now, he continues to train, continues to seek out any and all magic or means he can to improve his personal power, and waits patiently for the chance to sieze True power, power enough to act freely in plain sight of all, for he need fear the wrath of no man. Whether or not Helm minds such an evil, wretched creature flashing around his Holy Symbol, only time will tell. --------------------------------------------- That would be the point at which he would join the party. Obviously, this is still a work in progress. At this stage, I have his primary motivation being the gaining of personal power through whatever means. His means of disguise is obvious, and close enough to the truth to be believable, which is good. He also has then a way around the holy symbol problem, as (since he steals spells, rather than recieving them from anyone) he is free to use whatever holy symbol he wants. In truth, he would pray to and admire both Bane and Cyric, for different reasons, but he would not be a Cleric of either, though he would still wield divine power. The biggest thing I need now is a better plot hook. I want him to have a stronger motivation for taking up the path of evil originally. His parents being elven sorceress and tiefling warlock I like, the "cleric" mentor is fine, but why Not be good? I've been toying with the idea of his father, having been the BBEG for a group of adventurers, having those adventurers eventually catch up to him. He tries to explain that the past is the past, but they declare vengeance must be had. They try to arrest him, his wife and child are there, he doesn't unleash all his power, trying to avoid killing them, or having his wife or child come to harm. He's killed trying to save his wife, she dies trying to save her child... he runs. Something like that. That could start the initial resentment of their weakness, explains the brazenness, etc. I don't know, though. Any and all thoughts as to hooks like that would be wonderful. Also, traits. Things he has as habits, quirks of personality. Actions he could perform in secret, to vent some of his repressed evilness, so as to be able to tolerate living such a lie (catching squirrels, torturing them to death?) Finally, places in Forgotten Realms this sort of stuff could have happened in, a geographical background, would be awesome. Again, thank you all so much for the help so far! Any and all further assistance would also be greatly appreciated!