Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirGoodyTwoShoes 03-24-08, 11:10 AM	As of now, I am playing a Paladin (5) Pious Templar (4) Fist of Raziel (2) worshiper of Torm, and am interested in making the shift to Blackguard. Essentially, my character has a habit of charging anything that he detects as evil, and after killing a couple of evil dwarves without even communicating with them, then killing an Undead who was trying to talk to the party about being cursed, he's doubting the absolutism of "good". He's made some trips to churches of Torm and Lathandar, both of whom told him he'd "done good", so right now he's in disguise in Skullport trying to research evil deities to see if they are any better or just as hypocritical. My question lies in my inexperience with the Forgotten Realms Pantheon. My character is looking for a god that is martial (preferably), who values personal strength and will, and probably one with something about retribution or revenge would be good, since I see my character seeing to pay his former church back. I'm looking at Bane, who seems the natural choice except for the strict demands of fealty, which could either work really well for a former paladin of Torm, or not work at all since his problem is the absolutism of his current faith. The other is loviatar, who also seems like a decent choice, since the fall of this character would probably lead him to want those who he saw as "leading him astray" to suffer. Any thoughts with ways to make the transition and/or with deity selection? Much thanks for any help!
The_Shaman 03-24-08, 08:54 PM	Shar's fairly big on revenge. She's not exactly martial, but has a bit of a following and accepts warriors, too. Heck, if Lathander's clergy has given you the kind of Lawful stupid answer you say you got, Shar could easily be a good fit if you're looking for a paybackmeister. Still, just to see if I'm right... the paladin was exalted though he'd slaughter everything that moves, thought he was becoming too cruel and the good gods didn't care about that, so is now becoming evil? That seems... weird... on several levels.Care to reconsider it?
Paradox-of-Life 03-25-08, 04:23 AM	Bane fits in pretty damn well.
Heliomance 03-25-08, 08:07 AM	One concept that comes up quite a lot in the (homebrewed) setting I play in that I really like, is that of a Blackguard that doesn't realise they're a Blackguard. They honestly believe they're still a Paladin, and still doing good, but in reality they've fallen without realising it.
elliott20 03-25-08, 10:20 AM	Heliomance's concept is to me, a lot more probable than the whole "I dedicate myself to evil" schtick which makes for very goofy and very unrealistic villains. But I also second The_Shaman's concern. You're progress seems rather wierd. so first you play out the "stick-up-the-ass-slash-happy" paladin, for some reason, NOT fall, and so you become jaded in the gods? Was your paladin "testing" the gods or something? I don't know, I just see problems in the way things have progressed.
SirGoodyTwoShoes 03-25-08, 02:04 PM	Heliomance's concept is to me, a lot more probable than the whole "I dedicate myself to evil" schtick which makes for very goofy and very unrealistic villains. But I also second The_Shaman's concern. You're progress seems rather wierd. so first you play out the "stick-up-the-ass-slash-happy" paladin, for some reason, NOT fall, and so you become jaded in the gods? Was your paladin "testing" the gods or something? I don't know, I just see problems in the way things have progressed. I definitely realize how this could seem weird. I guess I didn't cover it very well from the get-go, but my character is essentially (consciously) questioning whether good and evil even exist as concrete things. Basically, he thinks he's already doing evil things, but the good clergy are all telling him "right on!", so he doesn't think there's quite as much to this good vs. evil thing as one might originally think. As far as the character knows, he's actually anticipating a move towards neutrality, but in the end, his bitterness towards what the "good" he's seen as hypocrisy will drive him to some very evil acts. I don't know if I can pull it off, to be honest, but I basically want to play someone who thinks they're neutral, but are so embittered and vengeful after sacrificing so much for what they think are laws, that they end up seeking out followers of good for some twisted idea of punishment. Hope that makes more sense, and thanks to everybody who's replied so far! This is helping quite a bit!
elliott20 03-25-08, 02:13 PM	well, in a round abuot way, it actually makes sense. But I was just wonder why the Gods themselves are telling you "good job". Sounds to me though, your character never actually managed to really speak with the diety and so he's wondering about the hypocrisy of his church. Now that CAN be compelling, especially when you turn around and become some vigilante who goes around trying to "cleanse" your old church.
Paul_V 03-26-08, 05:53 PM	Consider getting levels of Grey Guard (which can later be converted to Blackguard, like Paladin levels). They're still Lawful Good, but they're allowed to bend the code of honor, since they're basically their church's "left hand", sent to do the dirty work that would make ordinary Paladins Fall. When your character realizes that he's just being used, he can turn against his church and become a Blackguard. Here's a link to a summarization of the Grey Guard: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070320 Mostly, I suggest this for the sake of a smooth transition.
The_Shaman 03-26-08, 08:01 PM	Sorry, until level 10 GGs fall just like every other paladins... they just have a minor - imo absurd - advantage in getting redemption cost. I mean, what good cleric would want money to cast an atonement spell on a paladin who wants to go back to the light? I mean, requiring a service, sure, that's the meat and bread of redemption quests... but money? Ahem. Sorry, I'm not a fan of the GG. I guess it's better than nothing... but PT is way better anyway imo.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 03-27-08, 01:43 AM	It sounds to me like you won't find much satisfaction in any of the evil churches either. In truth I don't think blackguard is the path you really want to play (That is of course assuming that you are aiming the class at progressing the char and not aiming the char at reaching the class). Your character is, for the first time in his life, questioning his unending war. He has always understood the neccessity of defeating evil but now he starts to ask what it is that makes a thing evil. This isn't really a sign of an evil person but rather of a deep (or at least deepening) character who has begun to think for themselves rather than spewing forth dogma. I think your character, if he is "falling" should go through a 2-step process. First search out the philosophy of the evil deities as you seem to be doing. If good and evil truly exist than you need to understand what they are. You may well not be the sort who consciously realizes it but you are seeking out a deeper understanding of the whys and whats of your existance. You have always fought evil but what is evil? You have always been righteous and good but why is it important for you to be so? The next step follows the disapointment at the evil churches. Bane is little more than a tyrant. He is honest in his greed but in the end little more than a greedy despot. Shar and Loviatar are petty and vain. Set and Cyric are at least as hypocritical and often far more confusing that the churches of good. And so you are left to ponder. If good is empty and evil is false than what of my life? It is when you ask this question that you reach your epiphany. Perhaps good is not empty. You have spent your life in defense of good but you have not yet examined what good is. Seek out the churches of Sune and Liira. Seek the church of Illmater. Teach yourself what it is that you have spent you life at war to defend. Teach yourself why Torm fights against those who would engage in tyranny and wanton destruction. When you understand what it is that you are defending; when you understand what your life means, then you will be a far greater and wiser force of good in the world then ever. It is then that you must decide whether Torm's war is for you or if perhaps it is for you to transfer you devotion to one of the more benign forces of good such as Sune, LLira, or Illmater.
elliott20 03-31-08, 10:14 AM	Terjon always writes awesome ideas. But in this case, I think his idea is a little drastically different from yours. Still, cool idea none the less.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-03-08, 02:07 AM	Terjon always writes awesome ideas. But in this case, I think his idea is a little drastically different from yours. Still, cool idea none the less. ;) Thanks. Your right that it is a ways off from what he asked for but it seemed, to me, to be the most natural progression for the character described. The sort of fall he was describing typically doesn't lead to the embracement of all that is evil that the blackguard represents to me.
Bladedancer 04-03-08, 03:22 AM	Well as far as gods go you could always turn your faith towards Hoar he has the whole vengeance thing going for him. Also as a LN deity he can facilitate you change in alignment without switching gods so if you change your mind about going blackguard you still can. Just my 2 coppers
elliott20 04-03-08, 10:20 AM	;) Thanks. Your right that it is a ways off from what he asked for but it seemed, to me, to be the most natural progression for the character described. The sort of fall he was describing typically doesn't lead to the embracement of all that is evil that the blackguard represents to me. I guess that really depends on how you see the blackguard. to me, blackguard means not just disallusionment, but also hatred for something.
The_Shaman 04-03-08, 11:03 AM	That, or drastic lack of sense. There are precious few other reasons that you would do a pact with a fiend otherwise.
Heliomance 04-03-08, 04:17 PM	Or just pride. A blackguard could be just like a paladin, except that they are proud. They believe they always know best and that anyone not for them is against them. As mentioned above, I really like the idea of a paladin that doesn't realise they've fallen, and they just grow gradually prouder and crueller as they level in Blackguard, and begin to believe the ends justify the means. They still yell smite evil - but from their point of view, evil is anyone that doesn't agree with them.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-04-08, 03:18 AM	See, I tend to see the blackguard as someone who has actively embraced evil. Whether because they desire to reap the rewards of that life or out of a hatred for what others see as "good" my blackguard is someone who chooses to champion their dark path. The fallen paladin may wish to destroy all they once held dear or avenge themselves for old slights and become a blackguard. The paladin described above, however, seemed not to be seeking evil as a way of life but rather wanted to come to an understanding of what good and evil are. I see both the paladin and the blackguard as champions of good and evil, respectively. Both seem to me to be people who choose to promote their alignment to such extremes that it defines who they are. I certainly understand other viewpoints but it this dedication to an alignment that makes these two stand out to me.
elliott20 04-04-08, 09:44 AM	this is part of the reason why I like the paladin class so much and yet at the same time tend to find it far too controversial. Paladinhood has often been defined in so many different ways that you have to ask yourself what is more important to paladinhood? there was a thread on one forum I read sometime back about defining what paladinhood is and the thread often ends up devolving into another alignment debate and a debate moral absolutes.