Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boggler65 04-27-07, 11:54 AM	Hello, this is my first post under character optimization. So please help me out if you have the time. I've got a new villian in my campaign, he is epic. Here he is, Ingram Latour: Male, Human, Aristocrat 4/Wizard 9/ Cleric of Boccob 9/ Mystic Theurge 10, AL: Chaotic Neutral, Deity: Boccob. Str 12, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 27, Wis 23, Cha 16. Ingram is technically 109 years old, although for a reason unknown to ... well me at this point he stopped aging when he was 47. The basics are that Ingram is fabulously wealthy, and the third son of a noble family within the kingdom where my campaign is set. The kingdom follows typical medieval conventions, meaning that as a third son he was intended for the clergy. Ingram became wealthy when he single handedly rehabilitated an area of the kingdom which had once been the most prosperous farming region. It had suffered a plague, then droughts, etc, and the people turned to worshipping the beast god, with the result being that for about a hundred years prior to my campaign's beginning nothing but lycanthropes and other beasts survived there. His most powerful asset aside from his wealth, and the small army it allows him to employ, are his constructs, and his leiutenant "Springheel Jak" Rory. Ingram has a bainting pit in his mansion, a huge well stocked construct lab, and a normal lab. He keeps various magical beasts and other things imprisoned, experimenting on them, then pitting them against his constructs in the baiting pit. I have a little over a month of prep time left before this campaign gets under way. So here's my problem, what can I use as a motivation for this epic level villian, who's not really evil, who is ageless but holds no special divine or arcane status which grants this, and who has a shitload of money and resources to actually be the driving villian behind the campaign. I am open to suggestions because I really like the idea of a "bad guy" who's not really bad, just does things that **** off the party and or mess with the political landscape of the region and don't want to have to change the whole concept without trying it. Most of the planned character builds are strictly LG, with the exception of a CG Bard, and an NG cleric; whose players pitched to me with the idea of trying to blunt the parties actions in diplomatic situations. Ingram throws 4 lavish parties each year for various dignitaries and diplomats, one at each equinox, and one at each solstice. The PC's will be attending in the retinue of various diplomats, all serving different functions, they are not intended to know each other at the beginning of the campaign, but during this party that they attend one of the creatures will escape, leading them to unite for whatever purpose. Like I said, I really need some help on this one, I've done a lot of freaking work on this particular character, but I just can't pin down an acceptable motivation, or even anything beyond a very nebulous goal. Sorry for the long winded post, and thanks for the time.
YamiSouru 04-27-07, 12:14 PM	well seeing as this theurge isnt stupid or unwise by any means could create a bit of a problem, after all he wont be falling for tricks very easily makeing it harder for another person to try to trick him into being a villain. Perhaps one idea you could try is that because of how this to be villain is familer with both Arcane and Divine magic has begun to think that all magic originates from a set point in the multiverse, and in a attempt to prove himself worthy of Boccobs favor has started to do research on completely and utterly combineing arcane and Divine magic in a effort to create "Pure Magic". At his next party he reveals that he has had some success at his study's and even shows off a bit of this new pure magic. You get one guess as to where the PC's are at this time =p. Now you have a "Villain" who through his studys has outcast himself from wizard guilds, turned most churches against him, and through his example of pure magic sent shockwaves through the world for how magic is understood.By the nine hells you could even say that it is because of the research for this Pure magic is what causes him not to age.
Ensjak 04-27-07, 12:23 PM	Well, an obvious motivation would be his immortality. Perhaps he isn't truly immortal. He hasn't become a lich or other undead, and wasn't granted immortality through divine means. Rather, he found some other arcane means of prolonging his life by stopping the aging process. Three years ago, to his complete dismay, he found that the effect of his ritual had worn off and he began to age once more. He tried to perform the age-stopping ritual again, but his attempt was inneffectual. Although lichdom or vampirism are still viable alternatives, he finds both of these methods reprehensible and repulsive. How can he enjoy the lavish excess of aristocracy and wealth when he cannot properly feel sensation or live like a human? Likewise, he is unwilling to bargain with a fiend for fear of being bound to one in the afterlife and being cut off from Boccob. To this end, he is trying to collect resources to research and perform another ritual. But he is aging once more, and the slow process of researching on his own and slowly amassing the magical beasts and objects required for a more powerful ritual through legal means will take too long in his eyes. He wants to be immortal in his 40's or 50's, not as a decrepit geriatric. He now relies on clandestine means to gather such resources. His lieutenant aids him in stealing research and powerful magic items from the churches of Boccob, Vecna and other magic related deities (I'm assuming Springheel Jak is a rogue and thief from the Oblivion reference. I loved that character). His constructs he uses as thugs to raid other wizards' laboratories or collect magical beasts. Anyway, there's an example of a villain acting not out of evil, but perceived desperation. Another possibility is that he sees himself as a savior to the common people. He single-handedly revived that destitute part of the kingdom. Now he wants to do the same for other lands, even if this means removing other nobles through blackmail or more blatant, forceful methods. Hope some or any of this helps.
boggler65 04-27-07, 12:30 PM	That sounds rather interesting, and I like the idea. What concerns me is that this pure magic would require some further set of rules and development beyond what I have time for at this point, especially in light of the fact that the PC's are beginning at first level. Plus that kind of calls into question why this Wizard would have what amounts to his own personal army of constructs and hirelings at his disposal, or why he would require a fully stocked prison of experimental subjects... Plus like you said, he's not just intelligent he's wise... hmm... I'll have to try and work it in somehow. Perhaps that could become the overall goal, just not be revealed at the beginning of the campaign. (I'm intending to progress the 5 PC's up to 28th level in the course of this campaign.) I definently like that though, that will be great to include toward the end of the campaign. Ok, so any suggestions on the nature of and rules for this "pure" magic? And any suggestions for lower level motivations, escpecially scheming political tripe?
boggler65 04-27-07, 12:51 PM	That's actually incredibly helpful Ensjak. I really hadn't even considered the immortality angle, I guess most players are predjudiced against that desire for a character who isn't considering lichdom, vamprism, or hasn't been granted the quality through divine service. I think though that the constructs need to play a more significant purpose than simple collectors. They are a major part of everything he does, he's developed several unique varieties, and has supplied them even for economic purposes (the thresher golem, which I ripped straight from WoW.) He's not very mobile in the current design, He pretty much keeps to himself. The area where he lives has come to be called "Hell's Homestead" in recent years, and the current "civilian" population is only around 300. Hell's Homestead is a valley region, bordered on the north, east, and (most of) the west by mountains. Most of the south is bordered by a large lake, the area is approximately 150 miles north to south, and 40 miles at the widest point east to west. It's got 4 major rivers which feed into the lake, and is only accessible by land through one major, though decrepit trade road. You sound pretty juiced about Springheel Jak Rory, so am I, so I'll throw out some love on that front because I'm proud of him too. I originally concieved him based on Springheel Jak from Oblivion, but only because I liked the urban legend of Springheel Jak from England. Then the latest dragon magazine published a new creature catalogue which detailed a new Fey called the "Springheel" which I promptly used as my new springheel jak. Springheel Jak Rory: Male, Springheel (Fey), Fighter 8, AL: Chaotic Neutral, Deity: none. Str 22, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18. As presented in Dragon magazine Springheels have an LA +6. Anyway the character was born right as Hell's Homestead began to suffer, in what was then a major shipping city at the lakeside called Blackpoole. His family rejected him because he was for some reason without the normal supernatural abilities of a Springheel. About 30 years ago Ingram discovered this, and offered Jak the chance to gain these abilities by serving as one of his test subjects. Ingram was successful and Jak (whose real name is Sylvan, but pretty much unpronouncible by most of Ingram's other servants) gained the powers, and eventually was allowed his freedom by Ingram. In repayment Jak fought in Ingram's baiting pit against other test subjects. In an oddly lawful attitude Jak was not angry about this and was merely grateful for his natural abilites. Now he serves Ingram out of gratitude, he named himself Rory, but most of the other employees/servants call him "Springheel Jak" Rory. Again Ensjak thanks for the great angle.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-28-07, 02:50 AM	Ensjak has something with the immortality bit and you seem to have latched on. I would suggest as a bit of personal motivation for the characters have him either take a throwaway character or more likely still the liege of a character and kidnap them. It may seem a little extreme but bear in mind spells like magic jar. If he were to kidnap a younger noble and then transfer himself into that body the PCs would have to react. It should be difficult for them to prove the fact once he uses polymorphing magic to turn the other's body into a younger version of his own. He on the other hand most likely views this as a stop-gap measure... Something not worthy of second thought. If this is the case he probably has a means of insuring that in the future his immortality will be set more concretely. If the PCs learn what he has to do in order to make himself truly immortal they may need to work even harder to stop him. As far as making the constructs play a larger still role I'd suggest nimblewrights, warforged, and other constructs that have an intelligence of their own, whether through a psuedo-life or not. He almost certainly doesn't have any qualms about selling to evil organizations so make sure he has appropriate allies about. Lastly a suggestion for his ritual. If you decide to import the warforged he may be working on a spell that will allow him to inhabit a living construct body. The real motivation for the adventurers to stop him will probably be what is required by the ritual itself.
Fithero 04-28-07, 08:21 AM	You dont actually know why he is immortal... what if he doesnt know either? That would be a pretty damn freaky thing to live with. Perhaps you villian doesnt want to reverse the process, but just wants to know *why* it has happened to him. He is using these constructs because like him, they dont age and is testing his theories on these magical beasts. So, at the end of the day, his motivation could just be one of personal discovery and he will go to almost any length to get it. Peace
Westbound 04-28-07, 08:31 AM	Here's a goal you might consider. The man's a cleric of Boccob, and I assume that he's rather faithful. What if he has a divine epiphany? Since he's Chaotic Neutral, that means that concepts of good and evil, as the world knows it, aren't factored into his thinking. What if he thought to control good and evil itself by restricting their influence upon the world? He sees Magic as the only truth that matters, the one truth that could potentially bring peace to the land. And with the sort of peace Ingram would impose, he envisions an enlightened age of discovery, learning, and even a bit of altruism. He would impose this peace by any means necessary. To accomplish this goal, other temples, no matter who they may be, must be sundered. Neutral temples may be spared at his whim. He would use misdirection, illusion and other forces at his disposal to play upon Good and Evil faith's animosity, while holding the faith of Boccob up as "reasonable" and generous to new converts. He could instruct priests to welcome all who come through the door and preach a faith based on "reason, magic, and ingenuity, all of which everyone has potential." At the same time, Ingram's got another plan, one that may be implemented whenever he wants. It would be best that his campaign to bolster Boccob's popularity in the wake of a religious feud is well under way before he pulls the trigger on this one. He would unleash a terrible monster. This could be the Tarrasque, but any powerful monster would do. After the monster has wrought havoc on the populace for a bit, he would come out and defeat the monster with the aid of Boccob priests and wizards. This would catapult Boccob's popularity enormously. At that point, the other gods are bound to take notice. They may even suspect treachery. But Ingram doesn't age, right? He's got time on his side. So long as the other faiths aren't on to him yet, he's got the advantage. One might argue that isn't what Ingram going for a good thing in and of itself? No. Because reality will kick in at some point. By weakening the forces of Good, you end up strengthening the forces of Evil. Evil might redeploy somewhere to gather their strength, and evil deities will find new worshippers elsewhere. Since Neutrality doesn't understand the full ramifacations where Good and Evil are concerned in this case, the consequences will be disastrous, even for Boccob. Ingram's attempt to bring about an age of enlightenment will instead bring about an age of darkness. How about that?
Candin 04-28-07, 10:29 PM	You could give him a love interest? Maybe he imprisons his love so she stops aging while Ingram tries to find a way to grant her immortality as well? That way he doesn't have to live through her death and they can spend eternity together. This way he villainize the world without being a typical villain. Maybe what he thinks will solve his problems causes him to do something that the goodie goodies in the world would say is wrong?
boggler65 04-29-07, 03:49 PM	Ok, sorry for my haitus from involvment with my own topic. I didn't have my computer for the last couple of days. I like where this is going, all of the ideas are good, and things I havn't really considered. Couple things: Love where the construct ideas went, although there are a few problems. Nimblewrights are among my favorite constructs, but in the campaign world where this is taking place I already established to these players in a previous adventure that only several hundred exists, and that they are pretty much rogue, serving as mercenaries in a land that is far south west of this adventure. What happened is that about 1500 years ago a once powerful kingdom .... they were created there, but the wizard who created them was slain by them when he tried to usurp the throne, he had made them as body guards to the king, but given them too much sentience, and so they actually acted on their alignment slaying them as he completed a spell which put most into stasis, my players awakened them, by accident, and they went off to do their thing, currently their overriding purpose is to prevent the creation of more like themselves, which they are very very good at. I like warforged, but along with the virtual army of nimblewrights who work to prevent sentient constructs I just don't feel that they fit the flavor of my world. So here's what I have for the character so far, with a few revisions. Ingram stopped aging at 37, when the mage under whom he was studying attempted to replace Ingram's soul with his own. The ritual failed, but was partially completed, and Ingram became ageless. He's currently 109 years old. Recently (for him, actually five years ago) he travelled to Ghenna (I havn't looked up whether this plane works or not) a plane of negative energy? To barter for the purchase of a group of arrow demons from an Ultroloth which had taken them captive in the blood wars. He spent 78 hours on Ghenna, and began to notice that he seemed to be aging noticably. Upon returning he found through research that each hour spent on Ghenna, and by extension any other negative energy plane, he aged approximately one week. Therefore while on Ghenna he aged over a year in just 3 days. He also came to realize that when subjected to a spell with the negative energy descriptor, such as ray of enfeeblement or enervation, etc... he aged one week for every level of the spell. So he is 109 years old, and he has found over the last five years that since he stopped aging at 37 he has actually aged about 4 years, due to spell effects and his trip to Ghenna, etc, so he's aged to 41 approximately. Anyway, now he's trying to figure out how to get rid of this weakness.... beyond that I'm still having some trouble. He is rehabilitating a formerly important area of the kingdom, BUT, he does own it, free and clear. He's been around for a hell of a long time, and hasn't changed his identity, he's reclusive, and obviously powerful, so he's something of a popular figure at court, even though he never goes. At each equinox, and each solstice, he throws a lavish party for everyone important enough to have their own retinue, the parties are well attended. (4 a year.) I always like to make sure the PC's are forced to unite during play, and not previously closely associated with one another. Usually that makes for a more interesting dynamic, as I have an excuse for each member to work against one another sometimes. During the latest party I'm going to start each pc off as members of a different retinue, bodyguards etc. One of the constructs will go crazy, rather than a demon or something escaping, this way the pc's won't immediately be faced with the "villian." So after they survive I'm going to have them be employed by Ingram in the capacity of figuring out what went wrong with the construct, since he thinks it's an enemy. Various adventures will ensue, and they will begin to wonder about the region they are in, and why even after 30 years of Ingram's rehabilitating rule it's still pretty much a ghost region. Eventually around level 12 (campaign is supposed to reach level 28) they'll be confronted in some manner with Ingram's dubious intentions and hopefully start working against him, covertly for a few levels, and then openly, fighting their way through his lower level minions and then on to him. What I am now having trouble with is a proper vehicle to turn the PC's against Ingram, who I'm hoping will initially be a helpful benefactor. Even if his actions aren't particularly wholesome he hasn't really done anything terrible to anyone, and he restricts his somewhat questionable actions to things that are pretty much evil anyway. But then again like I said three of five planned characters are strict fanatic LG. Thanks for the great stuff so far.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-29-07, 11:34 PM	Well you've definetly established a connection to negative energy now so why not a connection to positive as well. If negative energy can age him perhaps he is experimenting on the the effects of a plane with positive energy dominant trait. In particular consider the use of... is it the ravid? I can't recall the name but its a positive energy creature that animates objects around them. Looks like a white eel with one arm. They could well be keeping the kingdom a ghost town by animating objects all over the region leading people to believe the whole area is haunted. Further if they can animate objects and give them a semblence of life there is no telling what the effect of multiple would be on constructs giving a good explanation of why the construct went on a rampage at the party. There is also always the half-golem template but I'm not sure you want to go that route.
boggler65 04-30-07, 05:42 AM	There is also always the half-golem template but I'm not sure you want to go that route. Nobody in my worlds wants to go that route. Lol. Since I developed rules for prosthetics, which while curious, don't immediately come with a "wow mommy look at the freak" label.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-30-07, 05:50 AM	I thought that might be the case but what about all the animated objects?
boggler65 04-30-07, 06:06 AM	I hadn't really been considering that beyond wanting to move away from the "villanous mage who likes to use undead" sterotype. I hate that it's so boring to go after a bad guy and know that you're going to come against a legion of annoying ghouls skeletons and zombies. He likes constructs, that was my thinking. lol. They make sense for him because even though they're more costly he has the resources, and they don't have the negative stigma that undead do, they're socially acceptable I guess, and something of a prestige thing. Like I said, due to the continuing dangers of the region, from lycanthropes, wild beasts, and the lingering threat of a plague resurgence (the lake to the south has been fouled by industry in the past and still hasn't recovered despite almost a century of natural clean water influx) there are only about 350 normal civilians in the region, including the people employed directly by Ingram in his army there are about 500 regular citizens. Plus the constructs can be adapted to farming purposes, which he has done with some of them. The random Ravid though might be a good initial catalyst, I looked it up and they only have a CR of 5, so that could be the cause behind the initial construct malfunction. **Edit** I wanted to post a slight update on here, mostly so that I can possibly get further advice, on the villian*s* (yes there are now more than one... the plot thickens) and on the plot as a whole. Thankfully after a preliminary sit-down last night the character builds planned branched out a bit. We've got two LG paladins, An LN Monk (who is Ingram's guest, studying scrolls penned by his order's founder) an CG Bard, and an NG Cleric. I especially like this because it's going to force the PC's to take on additional help to fufill the need for an arcane spellcaster. This will come in the form of one of Ingram's apprentices, after the first session. The current lowdown on Ingram's background is that he was once the apprentice of a powerful mage, whose plotting led to his family's downfall. In a failed bid for immortality Ingram's master accidentally granted Ingram that immortality. In the process Ingram's master became a Lich. So, while Ingram's actions are not necessarily good, therefore he is a villian after a fashion, he is not the true villian, his former teacher is. This should force a moral choice at some point, as his former teacher is now the lord of the 71st layer of the abyss, and reaching out attempting to destroy Ingram, who he can still use to reverse his lichdom and capture true immortality. The former teacher, Markhe, is level 39, so I have decided to expand the campaign up to level 36. At some point, around level 22, one of the paladins will become a Chosen of Heironeous, while the other one will become embittered (the latter paladin's player already has a sub-plot where he wants to grow increasingly jealous of his counterpart) and fall, losing his paladin levels in favor of Barbarian levels, and becoming Chaotic Nuetral. Eventually, probably around level 20 or so the party will have to chose whether to forgive Ingram or to take him down on their way to destroying Markhe. The final 8 levels of play will take place almost entirely in the abyss itself. I have created another character, a very Sherlock Holmes type named Mycroft (anyone who understands my homage pat yourself on the back) is going to come in on Ingram's side, I'll be roleplaying him, and he will be working with the PC's at least between levels 15 and 20, he will be the catalyst which uncovers Markhe's involvement, and will attempt to convince the PC's to show Ingram mercy, and just go straight to taking on Markhe. What action the party takes in regard to Ingram will directly determine whether or not the first paladin becomes a chosen (give him a second chance and become a chosen, or don't and nothing happens.) Plus they will potentially lose several powerful allies if they refuse to allow Ingram a shot at redeeming himself. So then, several things I'd like opinions on. 1. Anything that anyone wants to comment on =) 2. A lich ruling a layer of the abyss (I was thorough, there are no rules preventing this, but it seems on the border between brilliance and stupidity.) 3. Two villians, one who isn't a traditional villian. 4. Having heavy DM involvment through the Roleplay of an NPC ally who directly participates in the story (I've done it before, and have little trouble as a player and DM avoiding metagaming, but I'm not sure on this one.) 5. The idea of making one of my players a Chosen (I do plan to make the character earn it!) Thanks again everyone.
boggler65 05-02-07, 07:40 PM	Seems I actually need to do a new post to get slight revivial, so sorry this will be a double post, but yeah, above, thanks.
mikeloop86 05-02-07, 09:57 PM	One idea thats not been mentioned is what if Ingram himself were a construct? You say he likes them, well maybe there could be more to it than that. In this idea, his imortality could be tied to the fact that a magical misshap turned his body into nonliving tissue, but still magically animate. He is in the most technical forms of the word, a construct. He still looks just like you or me, but he doesn't need to eat, sleep, or breath. He doesn't age, and he has managed to keep his body in shape through the use of mending spells. His ultimate goal could be to aquire a living vessel to "switch" with, so that he may once again be a living thing again, instead of simple animate vegetable matter.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-03-07, 12:23 AM	1. Anything that anyone wants to comment on =) Not only am I the center of the universe but I can prove it.:D Well you did say anything. 2. A lich ruling a layer of the abyss (I was thorough, there are no rules preventing this, but it seems on the border between brilliance and stupidity.) Nothing wrong with it. If a night hag can rule in hell so can an undead. Of course without an alliance with Orcus he might have trouble staying alive... undead... existant. And Orcus might not be happy about that whole "researching a living form of immortality" shtick. 3. Two villians, one who isn't a traditional villian. If you have the skill to run it right then :dancin: rockin 4. Having heavy DM involvment through the Roleplay of an NPC ally who directly participates in the story (I've done it before, and have little trouble as a player and DM avoiding metagaming, but I'm not sure on this one.) Me personally. I try to avoid having a character. Especially when they have the potential to be a major player in combat the way a mage does. Or worse yet in RP the way a bard or similarly high Cha character does. If yer players don't mind though it doesn't have to be a problem and prob won't be if you don't make it one. 5. The idea of making one of my players a Chosen (I do plan to make the character earn it!) A level 30ish chosen is working on one little undead ruler of one little layer of the abyss? Just seems a little beneath someone who's CR matches some demigod's.
boggler65 05-03-07, 09:35 AM	Not only am I the center of the universe but I can prove it.:D Well you did say anything. Lol. Nothing wrong with it. If a night hag can rule in hell so can an undead. Of course without an alliance with Orcus he might have trouble staying alive... undead... existant. And Orcus might not be happy about that whole "researching a living form of immortality" shtick. Level 39 Lich, has a CR of 43 I believe, Orcus has a CR of like 22. Plus part of Markhe's backstory is that he beat the hell out of several abyssal rulers when he first got there, and that because he is so powerful after only a century the other abyssal lords have figured that he's got too much going on at once and will burn out, or eventually **** off someone who can take him down. Plus another part of his backstory is that he has the service and backing of several powerful groups of Yugoloths, hasn't tried to expand beyond the 71st layer or meddel in abyssal politics, and has still managed to gather quite a large army of demons to his service. If you have the skill to run it right then :dancin: rockin Me personally. I try to avoid having a character. Especially when they have the potential to be a major player in combat the way a mage does. Or worse yet in RP the way a bard or similarly high Cha character does. If yer players don't mind though it doesn't have to be a problem and prob won't be if you don't make it one. The spellcasters are going to be considered hirelings, so the party will be mostly in control of thier actions, except at specific story points. The character I'm thinking about playing, Mycroft, is there to basically be sherlock Holmes. He can fight, but at level 18, even if he advances he would stand absolutely no chance in direct combat against most of the threats the party is facing. He's more of a facilitator, or an operator, like holmes or even james bond. Mycroft is Expert 7/ Monk 6/ Vizier 5. So he's not got many combat feats or a high BAB. (I adapted Vizier from Jordain Vizier in the Shining South sourcebook, reflavored it.) A level 30ish chosen is working on one little undead ruler of one little layer of the abyss? Just seems a little beneath someone who's CR matches some demigod's. Thank you for that doubt Terjon. Honestly that was one of the things bothering me the most. It's nice to know that I'm not worrying about that for nothing, so let's see if I can put down a rational explanation before I even go any further with it. :) First of all, the way I have the campaign worked out to this point if at level 22 they decide to take down Ingram, the adventure will most likely end, because there is no further reason for them to be interested in Markhe, he won't be threatening the party directly, even though they've been interfering with his plans, until they decide to take him down. If the party takes Ingram down at level 22 Markhe would just back off, because even though they've messed with some of his resources and plans he's smart enough to realize that his goal has been fufilled (utterly destroying Ingram.) If the party tries to take down Markhe it seems to me that the paladin should become a Chosen of Heironeous, and that taking down Markhe would be the reason. Because, think about it, Heironeous hates undead, and it seems to me a Lich, that rules a layer of the abyss and has in the past single handedly defeated the likes of Orcus and Graz'at, and since then has only gotten more powerful, would definently be a target of Heironeous' wrath. So that's what I've been thinking to this point. Good? Bad? eh?
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-04-07, 02:52 AM	Lol. Given: The universe is infinite. Definition: The center of any given object is the point at which all sides are equidistant or as closely so as possible. Transitive? (if a then b): If the universe is infinite then all sides of the universe are an infinite distance from me (read equidistant). Don't remember the term (if a and b then c): All sides of the universe are equidistant to me and the center of any object is the point at which all sides are equal than I am the center of the universe. Level 39 Lich, has a CR of 43 I believe, Orcus has a CR of like 22. Plus part of Markhe's backstory is that he beat the hell out of several abyssal rulers when he first got there, and that because he is so powerful after only a century the other abyssal lords have figured that he's got too much going on at once and will burn out, or eventually **** off someone who can take him down. Plus another part of his backstory is that he has the service and backing of several powerful groups of Yugoloths, hasn't tried to expand beyond the 71st layer or meddel in abyssal politics, and has still managed to gather quite a large army of demons to his service. I would have assumed given the power level of the major players that existing ones would be more powerful as well. At that point why not just off Orcus on the way over to the lich? I mean he's not really a threat and how far out of your way would you have to go when you can hop planes more or less at will? The spellcasters are going to be considered hirelings, so the party will be mostly in control of thier actions, except at specific story points. The character I'm thinking about playing, Mycroft, is there to basically be sherlock Holmes. He can fight, but at level 18, even if he advances he would stand absolutely no chance in direct combat against most of the threats the party is facing. He's more of a facilitator, or an operator, like holmes or even james bond. Mycroft is Expert 7/ Monk 6/ Vizier 5. So he's not got many combat feats or a high BAB. (I adapted Vizier from Jordain Vizier in the Shining South sourcebook, reflavored it.) Like I said just be careful. Try to remember that Holmes is the hero and more importantly main character of his story. Now Watson on the other hand... Well lets just say Watson found the clues sometimes but it was always Holmes (the PCs) who put together the picture. First of all, the way I have the campaign worked out to this point if at level 22 they decide to take down Ingram, the adventure will most likely end, because there is no further reason for them to be interested in Markhe, he won't be threatening the party directly, even though they've been interfering with his plans, until they decide to take him down. If the party takes Ingram down at level 22 Markhe would just back off, because even though they've messed with some of his resources and plans he's smart enough to realize that his goal has been fufilled (utterly destroying Ingram.) If the party tries to take down Markhe it seems to me that the paladin should become a Chosen of Heironeous, and that taking down Markhe would be the reason. Because, think about it, Heironeous hates undead, and it seems to me a Lich, that rules a layer of the abyss and has in the past single handedly defeated the likes of Orcus and Graz'at, and since then has only gotten more powerful, would definently be a target of Heironeous' wrath. So that's what I've been thinking to this point. Good? Bad? eh? If your lich really is a threat to demon and devil uber-powers then yeah Heronious has good reason to be sending chosen after him. This guy has short term plans (by lich and ruler of hell standards) and power to back them up so really all the gods should be watching him with a wary eye. The only thing keeping the gods from declaring all out war on him is most likely that he hasn't yet attempted moving off his layer of the abyss. Of course with his being a Chosen I'd watch out for the great question "so why can't I just send an army of angels down to deal with his fodder troops then walk up and smack him down with my own team of epics. Just to offer a concept consider that your lich may not rule a layer of hell but rather has tenous control over it. Rather than giving him access to huge armies of demons make him the leader of a small cabal of exceptionally powerful individuals. They may even have cleared most of the demons off this layer and are trying to seal off access to it from elsewhere. This way each time the PCs defeat a foe they know they have seriously hurt him. It also means that defeating your sub-villian is gonna PO this guy a lot more than if your villian has a dozens of plans in action and loads of minions. It even explains why the lich hasn't just popped onto the material plane grabbed his target and gone. Lastly it begs a question the PCs and even Heronious himself has to ask. Why seal yourself off in a layer of the abyss?
boggler65 05-04-07, 01:52 PM	Given: The universe is infinite. Definition: The center of any given object is the point at which all sides are equidistant or as closely so as possible. Transitive? (if a then b): If the universe is infinite then all sides of the universe are an infinite distance from me (read equidistant). Don't remember the term (if a and b then c): All sides of the universe are equidistant to me and the center of any object is the point at which all sides are equal than I am the center of the universe. Nice, and accurate to boot. I would have assumed given the power level of the major players that existing ones would be more powerful as well. At that point why not just off Orcus on the way over to the lich? I mean he's not really a threat and how far out of your way would you have to go when you can hop planes more or less at will? I was thinking that since most of the demon lords are outright enemies of Markhe and they're just not important to the story, and since they are chaotic, once they realized the party is not there to mess with them they're going to pretty much leave them alone. Plus even on it's home plane at CR22 a demon lord isn't easy to kill, and if Orcus realized he was going to get beat down by the PC's I just assume that he would flee. Like I said just be careful. Try to remember that Holmes is the hero and more importantly main character of his story. Now Watson on the other hand... Well lets just say Watson found the clues sometimes but it was always Holmes (the PCs) who put together the picture. That is true, I want this character involved, but maybe I'll play down the extent of his involvment. If your lich really is a threat to demon and devil uber-powers then yeah Heronious has good reason to be sending chosen after him. Yeah, the hook in my mind was just that the gods needed an opportunity to get in the fight. This guy has short term plans (by lich and ruler of hell standards) and power to back them up so really all the gods should be watching him with a wary eye. The only thing keeping the gods from declaring all out war on him is most likely that he hasn't yet attempted moving off his layer of the abyss. Of course with his being a Chosen I'd watch out for the great question "so why can't I just send an army of angels down to deal with his fodder troops then walk up and smack him down with my own team of epics. That is a good point, and since once the PC's finally make their way to his layer of the Abyss they probably will be forced, literally into an actual war. There probably will initially be something like an army of celestials, angels and other good aligned extra-planar creatures, but they're more of a vanguard than anything else, keep in mind that there is no way to reach the 71st layer directly from any other plane. In fact because the demon lords and Markhe have pretty much closed it off the PC's are going to have to work very hard to figure out a way to get there, all this time their angelic army is going to be getting whittled down by the infinite waves of demons assualting them on all sides. Ingram is going to spend levels 10-30 of the parties advancement just straight up building up an army of constructs. Any right around level 32 the party should finally be hitting the 71st layer of the abyss, with a severely depleted assault force, at which point Ingram will bring in the cavalry (if the PC's didn't beat him down) At that point it should take the PC's about 4 levels (epic levels) to finally reach the final confrontation, since Spirac is not an infinite realm. Just to offer a concept consider that your lich may not rule a layer of hell but rather has tenous control over it. Rather than giving him access to huge armies of demons make him the leader of a small cabal of exceptionally powerful individuals. They may even have cleared most of the demons off this layer and are trying to seal off access to it from elsewhere. This way each time the PCs defeat a foe they know they have seriously hurt him. It also means that defeating your sub-villian is gonna PO this guy a lot more than if your villian has a dozens of plans in action and loads of minions. It even explains why the lich hasn't just popped onto the material plane grabbed his target and gone. Lastly it begs a question the PCs and even Heronious himself has to ask. Why seal yourself off in a layer of the abyss? What I said above is what I want to do, because it's truly epic, I mean a confrontation that ends up with the decimation of three or more massive armies? While the PC's invade a layer of the abyss and end it's ruler... sounds sweet to me. That said, I'm going to have to give serious consideration to making Markhe control a significantly smaller force. Thanks Terjon
Lyinginbedmon 05-04-07, 08:02 PM	Okay, I like the Springheel Jack bit, though I know him a tad more as a British folkloric villain, known for leaping buildings and breathing flame upon his victims. Now, assuming the two are anyway alike, I think I can whip up a plot: Okay, so as the 3rd child, Ingram went into the clergy. Since he started dabbling in Wizardry before Clericism, we can assume that religion wasn't his first calling. However, we can certainly tell from his background and his build that he is fascinated by magic and it's effects, potent or otherwise. Springheel Jack's firey breath would have to be a spell or item effect, because a Half-Dragon only gets 1/day, though you could combine both I guess. Therefore, we can connect the two by saying that Jack goes to Ingram for Elixirs of Fire Breath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#elixirofFireBreath), and in return seeks out certain tomes, creatures, and materials that Ingram wants for his research. Most likely it's one of his elixiric experiments that paused his aging process, as magical chemicals have been known to have strange effects. Ingram is now connected to a criminal. To draw attention away from the magic-oriented thefts of Springheel Jack (Should Jack ever actually be found to be a criminal, being a Lieutenant I doubt he has yet), Ingram holds his parties, ensuring that he has many political friendships and loyalties by making himself out to be a very good man to the important diplomats. This gives him a little lee-way in legal proceedings, so if he's caught he can slip through the net, and he can get bail for Jack if he's caught. Undoubtedly, his labs suffer quite a bit of magic pollution, so we'll assume that's where he's gotten his immortality. Since the pollution is permanent, so long as he keeps working there he'll stop aging. His lab brings me a quite idea. When a Grisgol (MM3) is destroyed, it leaves behind writings and scroll bits etc. that if read, cause insanity. What if Jack brought Ingram a rival's tome with such a scrap inside? Assume he fails the saving throw, Ingram is now mad. Cold and calculating, but mad. He spends more and more time in his labs, busily studying every piece of arcane and divine lore, convinced that he's about the make a revolutionary new discovery in the realm of magic (For inspiration, one could seek out my Laws of Magic). Let's say he's mad, but right, after all the line between genius and insanity is a very frail thing. Okay, so Ingram is on the verge of a massive discovery, but he needs materials to make it come to fruition. He's only mad in respect to his secretive obsession to this theory, so he can still maintain his guise and appearances. Let's say that the theory is that he has found a way to make magic existence no matter the quantity of soul energy in a 500 mile radius. To make this possible, he's going to need souls, a lot of them. Constructs and magical beasts tend to have something amounting to a soul in them, but Ingram wants more, fast. So he sends Springheel Jack out to start gathering as many people as he can, the more people the more souls and therefore the more soul energy. Ultimately, the plan is that Ingram will conduct a ritual (Epic spell undoubtedly) that will bind the soul energy of the 200 max. people to his own and thereby become one of the most powerful magical entities in history, a creature who doesn't need to rely on anyone or anything for magic. He could potentially annihilate all life on the planet and still have enough magic to do it again. Jack wants some part of this big scheme too, so Ingram is promising to ensure that Jack need not rely on the Elixirs (Which he has unfortunately become addicted to) for his fire. This could mean making him a Half-Dragon or binding the magic of the Elixirs straight into him, like a self-perpetuating Elixir factory inside of him. To this end, Jack's actions in the outside world would seem to be him attempting his own selfish goal, rather than helping anyone, including Ingram. If Ingram can get the connection of 200 worth of souls pumping straight through him, then his magical abilities would be immense. He'd be a living incarnation of magic.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-04-07, 11:52 PM	Alright. While I'm not a big fan of leading an army its your campaign so go for it if that's your style. Glad to see you are considering my advice on your own pc though. It's very easy to fall into a game of solitaire D&D when you include one as DM. Still if you remember your controlling an NPC not a PC you should be good. Basically just keep in mind "If you find yourself, talking to yourself... stop". This is true in real life as well.:D As for my question about popping by to destroy Orcus? I was more concerned that such extremely powerful characters would draw enemies like flies. both seeking their power and trying pre-emtive strikes. Orcus is Heronious's enemy and seeing his chosen in the abyss he may try to slide away but not without making lots of plans for your downfall first. He's smart enough to let you go after Markhe and nowhere near dumb enough to think his time won't be coming up soon.
boggler65 05-05-07, 12:37 PM	More stuff to think about. So far I havn't actually gotten that far in my planning, it's an epic campaign, my group usually plays for about 8 hours, sometimes 10, twice a month. Going after other demon lords is beyond the scope of the campaign at this point... but like I said, there will be some epic confrontations, so Orcus, among others, might show up as a set piece to get in their way. My line of thinking was that Orcus, and the other demon lords are enemies of Heironeous, *but* they are familiar enemies, whereas Markhe is incredibly dangerous because he is an unknown enemy, and has obtained phenomenal power in a short amount of time. Does that make any sense? More things to think about though, but this campaign will take at least a full year, if not more.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-06-07, 01:11 AM	It make's sense but its a little bit limited. Orcus (or any other demon prince) isn't going to outright attack someone going after their enemies. Rather they would look for opportunities to set you up for a harder victory. Switching support between you and your enemy in order to keep the weaker in the battle. They want the victor to basically be as weak as possible when they win so they can then deliver a quick coupe day gracie. That way both enemies go down together. This is in the distant future for you though so you really do need to focus more on the current plot for now. You've got your opening where a ravid drives a construct mad. You've got a villian who really just wants to insure his immortality (by the way if his immortality is slipping away does that mean Markhe has found a way to steal it back?). You have a major region that is heavily underpopulated which means random encounters are high. You have a hook to get the players where you want them and start them on their path. Now you need to make them stay on it. Have you considered the possibility they may be willing to help Ingram? As long as he can keep the darkest of his actions away from them he's just another wizard looking for the antidote to time. And even one who has even forsaken the typical undead paths. They don't know (at least at first) about his infusion with negative energy. He might even be able to set-up a minor landing (gift of land) if they can help him to cleanse the taint keeping his region devoid of proper life. Also consider not allowing the players to know about Ingram's connection to Jak. It frees Jak to the role of party nemesis. Sometimes a rival adventurer who is going after the same target as the PCs sometimes as a minor villian. Try to convince them that Jak is either an independent or working for an unknown third party. When they find out he's been working for Ingram all along they have a reason to turn on a former patron.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-06-07, 01:18 AM	Had an idea right after typing that up. If yer PCs get a minor stronghold for cleaning up the area Mycroft could easily be a retired adventurer who is willing to handle the upkeep for them. You can even have Ingram craft him a construct form he can project into to travel with the PCs allowing him to provide advice. The Construct Body wouldn't be able to fight well (uses controllers BAB and has 75% spell failure when casting through it) or be extremely durable but it can climb into a bag of holding during a fight without risk. This way your Mycroft has a reason to be available when they need him but also to disappear when they don't. Let them pull him out of the bag and ask for help from someone who has "been through it all before" if they are really having trouble. This would work better if Mycroft was say a loremaster or bard type.
boggler65 05-06-07, 12:48 PM	Terjon you are an absolute font of excellent ideas. Focusing on the beginning of the campaign for now is the right way to go. The way it is they're going to deal with the ravid, and then there will be a few levels of bandit killing, and dealing with Malarite lycanthropes which still infest the region. There was also a new monster called a rot giant introduced in the same Dragon article as springheels. They make sense for this region since it has suffered massive plagues, so they will come into play as a foe. The focus of the first part of the campaign, until about level 15, will be the pc's aiding Ingram in making the area habitable again, and every few levels thwarting a new threat to Ingram's constructs. Levels 15-18 will be where the real sluething starts, that's going to be when the PC's figure out that there is more than conincidence surrounding Ingram, and the regions troubles. Levels 18-22, will have the PC's facing the major decisions, bringing the peices of the puzzle together, and finally determining Markhe's involvment. Levels 22-24 will focus on the characters gaining powerful allies as the paladin becomes a chosen. Levels 24-32 will throw the characters into the abyss as they try to make their way to Markhe's realm. Levels 32-36 will have them working their way to a final confrontation, trying to gain allies within the abyss and what not. Pretty much everything after 10th level at this point is preliminary, and not set in stone. As for the mechanics of the connection between Ingram's immortality and Markhe's lichdom. I am treating them as diametrically opposed elements. Ingram's immortality is directly tied to Markhe's, but Ingram's immortality is also dependant on him staying on a plane that doesn't have the negative energy property. Just like Markhe's immortality depends on him staying on a plane that doesn't have the positive energy trait (or at least keeping his phylactery away from such a place.) Therefore when Ingram travelled to Ghenna he weakened himself, and thus made it possible for Markhe to once again attempt to gain immortality through a body switch. Thus every action Markhe is taking is designed to bring Ingram into the abyss so that Markhe can successfully complete the ritual which he failed a century ago. Ok. Mycroft. Mycroft is a Vizier, as a PrC it is even less combat oriented than a bard or a loremaster, which is why even at such a high level he is simply more skilled than most humans, and not really a threat to something like a demon. They are supposed to serve, and have no magic talent. That said maybe Ingram could enable him to astrally project himself to where the party is, that way he couldn't interact in combat, but at a key point he might be able to take action at the cost of his own life. Something along those lines. I shouldn't have to worry about that right now though, since he's not going to be with the party until they reach about level 15. Jak. Okay, I could try that, but it would be incredibly difficult to do, since he is an integral part of Ingram's forces. Everyone in the region knows of his deeds, and his past, and they all know of his odd connection to Ingram. Jak... his real name is Rory... anyway, he was born a little over a century ago in the lakeside city of Blackpoole, but he failed to manifest any of the usual supernatural powers displayed by those of his kind, so he was abandoned. Ingram found him, and offered him a chance to gain those powers. Which was successful (Ingram performed a ceremony from savage species, that turned Jak into a human, then another ceremony that turned him back into a true Springheel.) That whole thing is how I am accounting for Jak's alignment, and his fealty to Ingram. Still, at some point the PC's will have to fight Jak, probably around level 20. I have this picture in my mind of the scene. The PC's have learned most of what Ingram has been up to, but they still lack a few critical peices of the puzzle, even so they are hacking their way through his forces to confront him. They run across Springheel Jak Rory, who singlehandedly gives them a run for their money. They defeat him and he surrenders, telling them he's supposed to take them directly to Ingram, but wanted to make sure they were worthy. The party gets to Ingrams inner sanctum, where his longtime friend Mycroft has him subdued and tied up. Mycroft proceeds to tell the story of Ingram's life, most of it, to the party, who are able to interject some things that not even Mycroft knew, then Ingram speaks up and proceeds to tell the full story himself, including all of his suspicion. At which point the party either accepts his story and apology, or they kill everyone.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-10-07, 02:50 AM	Not bad for a starting sketch out. Didn't really reealize how famous Jak was so if you use him the way I suggested he'll need heavy ranks in disguise. I always like to have a nemesis for my party members and was looking at Jak for his potential as such. Currently I am using Rothe an advanced gargoyle. The PCs have already killed off one major villian (at level 7-8) but Rothe survived and is getting stronger. As importantly while he is really not a huge plot villian he is targetting the PCs without reservation or a larger plot than their death. It means that when they fight him he always brings something new to the table and when they finally finish him it'll be a major victory that won't change the plot. It also means they think he's more important than he is. As for the Vizier PrC I haven't seen it myself but if its less combat oriented than loremaster you should be good. I like the idea I had of using a weak golem that Mycroft can project into since it means he's only around when the players pull him out of their bag of holding and because it allows you to set limits as you see fit on how often they can call him. Astral projection on the other hand is limited only by Mycroft's power. Either way gives you most of the control you need though since he's an NPC and therefore completely at you're disposal. I do like however the way you're setting up the link between Markhe and Ingram. Make sure however that you know what happens to each in the event of the others death. I have a suggestion but its waaaaay out there. Ingram could be a living phylactery. Use a twist on the lich ritual and let Markhe stay alive (as opposed to undead) as long as Ingram is alive. Only if the PCs kill Ingram does Marke become a true lich. This means Markhe has to keep Ingram alive and gives a strong reason for their ties together and for the diametric effects of energy on them. Ingram probably wouldn't even be aware of this. If you do use this Markhe becomes the true villian the whole way through. Meanwhile all evidence will point at Ingram. More over if the PCs don't kill Ingram they are gonna need some other way to shatter the lich-phylactery bond. (Note that a lich who loses his phylactery can create another but I'd suggest that Markhe can't pull off another living one.)
boggler65 05-10-07, 08:14 PM	Not bad for a starting sketch out. Didn't really reealize how famous Jak was so if you use him the way I suggested he'll need heavy ranks in disguise. I always like to have a nemesis for my party members and was looking at Jak for his potential as such. Currently I am using Rothe an advanced gargoyle. The PCs have already killed off one major villian (at level 7-8) but Rothe survived and is getting stronger. As importantly while he is really not a huge plot villian he is targetting the PCs without reservation or a larger plot than their death. It means that when they fight him he always brings something new to the table and when they finally finish him it'll be a major victory that won't change the plot. It also means they think he's more important than he is. Nice, props to the gargoyle usage. Last campaign that I DM'd featured a Gargoyle Ranger named Arks. His actions were undertaken to save his flock, but as a gargoyle the way he went about it painted him as a villian. By around 12th level the PC's had used their influence to help Arks' tribe in an acceptable manner, and near the final showdown Arks led his flock in a holding action so that the PC's could escape with their lives, having tried to initiate the final events before they had enough information and resources to suceed. That said, if you're looking to use Jak as a villian, be my guest :) If you give me a few hours I can even get you the full MM style entry from the Dragon magazine that presents Sprinheels as a ney fey creature. As for the Vizier PrC I haven't seen it myself but if its less combat oriented than loremaster you should be good. I like the idea I had of using a weak golem that Mycroft can project into since it means he's only around when the players pull him out of their bag of holding and because it allows you to set limits as you see fit on how often they can call him. Astral projection on the other hand is limited only by Mycroft's power. Either way gives you most of the control you need though since he's an NPC and therefore completely at you're disposal. Vizier is a 5th level PrC progression. At 5th level it has a BAB of +3. Which means the way he's built at 18th level he's basically a monk, with a wizards BAB. Actually it seems that an 18th level wizard would have a high BAB lol. I do like however the way you're setting up the link between Markhe and Ingram. Make sure however that you know what happens to each in the event of the others death. I have a suggestion but its waaaaay out there. Ingram could be a living phylactery. Use a twist on the lich ritual and let Markhe stay alive (as opposed to undead) as long as Ingram is alive. Only if the PCs kill Ingram does Marke become a true lich. This means Markhe has to keep Ingram alive and gives a strong reason for their ties together and for the diametric effects of energy on them. Ingram probably wouldn't even be aware of this. If you do use this Markhe becomes the true villian the whole way through. Meanwhile all evidence will point at Ingram. More over if the PCs don't kill Ingram they are gonna need some other way to shatter the lich-phylactery bond. (Note that a lich who loses his phylactery can create another but I'd suggest that Markhe can't pull off another living one.) Damn! Living phylactery, why the hell didn't I think of that? lol. So, with that in mind, here's what I'm thinking. Markhe is still a lich, but, if he would be able to create a new phylactery, and get his soul out of Ingram, who is currently an unwitting pylactery then he would be able to gain immortality, but in a normal human form, and retain the abilities granted by the lich template... as he originally intended, or something like that. Ingram's immortality is thus based on the fact that two sould inhabit his body, therefore to retain immortality after Markhe is defeated he will have to trap the fleeing portion of Markhe's soul in... ironically a phylactery. Which will mean that he will have unintentionally obtained the type of immortality that Markhe was shooting for. Either that or perhaps he will be given the opportunity to sublimate Markhe's soul, and risk forfieting his own immortality.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 05-10-07, 11:40 PM	I think you've got it. A nice interplay between lesser and greater villian, a tie in for the heroes, and a moral dillema for them when they face Ingram. You're lesser villian is even a part-time ally. Gotta say it looks like a great campaign. I would like to see that writeup up Jak. Don't think I can use him in my current campaign since I'm dealing with undead but he'd be interesting to say the least. I like having Markhe use 2 souls to attain immortality and it means he has to be careful. If he kills Ingram and doesn't catch his soul he winds up undead. If someone else kills Ingram and he doesn't catch his soul he winds up undead. You might want to consider a couple of abilities to replace the added immunities of undead in case he does catch the fleeing soul of Ingram. Alternatively he could be living and undead at the same time. That is able to feel as a living creature but registering as undead and having their immunities. Of course if they are tied together as such than theoretically Ingram could manage true immortality by killing Markhe and catching his soul. It's an unlikely situation but it affords Ingram a greater dream that could put him further into danger than an immortal such as he might normally be willing to go.
boggler65 05-11-07, 09:11 PM	I think you've got it. A nice interplay between lesser and greater villian, a tie in for the heroes, and a moral dillema for them when they face Ingram. You're lesser villian is even a part-time ally. Gotta say it looks like a great campaign. I would like to see that writeup up Jak. Don't think I can use him in my current campaign since I'm dealing with undead but he'd be interesting to say the least. I like having Markhe use 2 souls to attain immortality and it means he has to be careful. If he kills Ingram and doesn't catch his soul he winds up undead. If someone else kills Ingram and he doesn't catch his soul he winds up undead. You might want to consider a couple of abilities to replace the added immunities of undead in case he does catch the fleeing soul of Ingram. Alternatively he could be living and undead at the same time. That is able to feel as a living creature but registering as undead and having their immunities. Of course if they are tied together as such than theoretically Ingram could manage true immortality by killing Markhe and catching his soul. It's an unlikely situation but it affords Ingram a greater dream that could put him further into danger than an immortal such as he might normally be willing to go. Exactly. I think though, that as much as I like him, Ingram has to die. Perhaps upon death he would enact a sort of magical will, which would transfer control over the army of constructs that he will work on between levels 15 and 32 over to Mycroft and to Jak, jointly, since despite their nature the three are close friends. Perhaps then the conclusion of the final battle can see the PC's facing a Markhe who has gained the type of immortality he sought, but then from levels 32 to 35 the PC's can be looking for a means to destroy Markhe's soul, without harming Ingram's, who they now view as a good person and a stalwart ally. As to Jak; I'm going on the road this weekend, so when I get back on monday I'll write him up. Peace man.