Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 12:15 PM	Hello, I have a moral/alignment question for those out there who could shed some light on this subject for me. I play a young (110 years old) elven ranger named Quellyn whose primary enemy (favored) is humans. In recent gaming sessions my DM has teased me about Quellyn's actions towards humans, saying his alignment should be "evil." I believe it to be more along the lines of lawful neutral, but....yeah, I'd like any opinions...especially considering you'd have to read the next paragraph that's quite long...:( Besides to have an interesting favored enemy, I made humans his favored enemy because in his backstory his village is completely wiped out by a caravan of humans. In a nutshell the humans acted like friendly traders, and after gathering all the elven leaders in the main dais for a trade treaty/deal, proceeded to draw concealed weapons and suprise the elves. Even though several elves fought valiantly, including Quellyn's parents, they were slaughtered. After this, the humans looted the village, and left. The reason Quellyn wasn't slaughtered was because his mother (a cleric of Sehanine Moonbow) and his father, a powerful wizard, cast several spells on him to conceal him from the humans. So basically he watched as everyone he loved was butchered in front of his eyes, including his own parents. The only survivors were Quellyn, and eleven elven children he later found hiding in a cave. So...yeah, this trauma has lead Quellyn to loathe all humans and kill them whenever he has the chance to. In fact, this is one of the reasons he left the woods around his village to travel with a mercenary band. Now, so far in the campaign I'm in, any humans that our party has come across and that were initially hostile to us, Quellyn has killed, even if they weren't supposed to be. One mission we were ordered to subdue any caravans traveling down a road. While the other party members used subdual damage and then tied them up, Quellyn didn't, and in fact when everyone else was sleeping did coup de grace to all the human captives. If you are still reading this, this is where my DM trys to say Quellyn is acting evil. But I disagree because Quellyn also sends a significant amount of money (when he has the chance) to the elves he rescued from his village. Last time he sent 150 gold. Plus he is friendly and amiable to everybody, except humans, obviously. This includes offering food he has found (Survival),which is a sacrifice, to anyone that's not human in need. And he doesn't attack women or children even if they are human, he just loathes them. Plus, if it matters he pities half-elves, but doesn't hate them. He is quite benevolent towards them, primarily because he couldn't imagine the horror of their existence I'm planning on him to eventually realize that not humans are evil and that some are good. In fact the only human in our party, a bard named Pellien has (thanks to constant attempts at conversation) established a quasi-friendship with Quellyn. So.....yeah, any opinions on whether or not behaving in that way would make one evil or not, would be greatly appreciated. Also if it matters he is level 5. I personally think lawful neutral best suits him...but..yeah... Peace
He Who Is 01-11-04, 01:14 PM	Quellyn didn't, and in fact when everyone else was sleeping did coup de grace to all the human captives. Murdering the defenseless is an evil act.
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 01:40 PM	Oops, sorry, I made a mistake about that. He didn't murder them when they were sleeping. That happened in a book I just got done reading...whoops. Anyway, what happened is that while everyone else was fighting the caravan guards and subduing them, Quellyn was trying to kill them, and in fact did kill quite a few. And then when some of the guards were knocked unconscious and the other party members had moved on to other guards, Quellyn performed a coup de grace on I think two guards. I guess that could be considered an evil act, seeing as how they are defenseless and whatnot. But the way I see it is that in his mind humans are the epitome of evil. He hasn't been out in the world much, so consequently doesn't know many other races. So...yeah, in his mind humans would be to him, what orcs/goblins are to commoners. True, not every goblin/orc is evil, but so many are that commoners fear them/hate them. Same way with Quellyn's mind. Humans have done nothing but evil in his life. I don't know if I explained my idea well enough....but I'll wait for more responses afore I make a complete fool out of myself, ha. But yeah....any opinions on my character's alignment would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Peace
Omoikane 01-11-04, 01:58 PM	He's skirting the edge of evil acts. Coup de gracing, under any circumstance, is an evil act (slitting the throat of a defenseless person.. hard to imagine that that's anything but evil). But I think this incident can become a strong part of your young ranger's story, when he perhaps starts to realize he's being too vengeful, and starts regretting killing humans without just cause.
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 02:15 PM	Thanks for that insight Omoikane. Do you think his alignment would be neutral then? And as for chaos or law, I think he would be leaning more towards law, considering the fact that he kinda follows a personal code, and just isn't erratic. Peace
He Who Is 01-11-04, 02:22 PM	Murdering the defenseless, no matter how evil your characters thinks they are, is still an evil act on the characters part. But the way I see it is that in his mind humans are the epitome of evil. The standard reasoning most evil people use to justify their actions. The same type of justification that a terrorist orginization uses.
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 02:37 PM	So by your logic (He Who Is), if a fighter killed a devil that had been terrorizing a village after that devil had been subdued by a wizard, then killing that devil would be considered an evil act? The devil could be considered defenseless. The point I'm trying to make is that if you are fully convinced in your mind due to trauma that every human is inherently evil, then you would have no qualms about slaying them mercilessly. That is until something happened to make you think twice about it, such as watching a human paladin die defending non-human children so that they could escape.
He Who Is 01-11-04, 02:50 PM	So by your logic (He Who Is), if a fighter killed a devil that had been terrorizing a village after that devil had been subdued by a wizard, then killing that devil would be considered an evil act? I don't consider (though your DM might) killing in battle to be evil. But based on your descriptions, when you killed the guards, you were no longer in battle. It's the equivalent of cops beating a criminal after the criminal is handcuffed and in custody. The point I'm trying to make is that if you are fully convinced in your mind due to trauma that every human is inherently evil, then you would have no qualms slaying them mercilessly. Is the Punisher (from Marvel Comics) evil?
Omoikane 01-11-04, 02:58 PM	He Who Is makes a valid point, in a clear cut moral sense. But in both real life and D&D, things are skewered by circumstances. The act of coup de gracing was evil, but the ranger cannot yet be considered evil as of yet. He has to understand its an evil choice to murder defenseless people. Enigma, your ranger sounds a little more neutral to me than lawful (though he's well within the lawful boundary, if you wish to keep him there), in that he didn't abide to the rules of the group (the group chose to subdue the people while the ranger persisted, and acted, on his desire to kill them). But this case alone isn't the defining point in this characters law-chaos alignment, but rather his good-evil alignment. He, after all, was confronted by a hated enemy, and may not have been his normal group-oriented, lawful, self.
Omoikane 01-11-04, 03:01 PM	The Punisher would be evil, yes... But even as he started his murderous rampage, he was probably trying to act out of a sense of good... This ranger is acting on the same instinct. He believes he's doing the right thing, but unlike the Punisher, he can still be saved :)
He Who Is 01-11-04, 03:08 PM	But he obviously considered his actions would be a problem, because when he killed the guards, he did it behind the back of his collegues. Not that I would automatically label the character as evil, break out the twirling mustache, and from the description neither does the GM. But the actions that the character took against the human, you, I, and the GM would consider it an evil act.
Omoikane 01-11-04, 03:10 PM	Perfectly agree with you.. but this one evil act does not instantly force an evil descriptor to his alignment, that's what I'm getting at :) Ideally, he'll realize his error, regret it, and learn to change himself to the better.. or he'll continue his murderous rampage, and become a Punisher.. from a roleplaying perspective, neither is a necessarily bad path (unless, of course, the DM has a non-evil restriction).
He Who Is 01-11-04, 03:14 PM	Looks like we are in agreement.
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 03:57 PM	Thank you both He Who Is and Omoikane. I never thought of him being like the Punisher:b:. But yeah, I don't intend to keep him on this hateful path. I'm going to eventually have him start to realize that not every human is evil, and that they are some out there who are good. But so far in the campaign that has yet to happen. Oh, and I apologize for only giving you one instance on which to guess a possible alignment, ha. We haven't played this campaign for too long (which is why we're level 5). Just curious though, in your opinion (or in anyone else reading this thread) what would you think my ranger would have to do to become fully evil/cross the line?
He Who Is 01-11-04, 04:31 PM	Well, the fact that he doesn't kill women and children are good, and the since he doesn't kill half-elves is another good thing. Would he kill civilian male humans (farmers, and the like), or only those of combat training? Would he initiate a fight with a human, or only those who engage him? Would he ever take active part in saving humans, and if so, what would it take? Is torture out of the question? If not, when would it be used? Is it only murder, or does desecration of the corpses also happen?
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 05:33 PM	Wow, I freakin' hate my computer.....I just typed a long reply only to see it delete itself when I was done.....gwar...well, I learned my lesson, always copy periodically....stupid computer... Anyway, in response to your questions again, ha. Um, for the first one. No, he would only kill armed men. Otherwise he would judge them as unworthy opponents. If a human farmer came at him with a pitchfork, he'd knock 'em down and continue moving. He would initiate a fight without prevocation if he could get away with it and he didn't have any responsibility for keeping the human alive AND if the human was an adult who was armed. As for the second question, he would take part in saving humans and in fact has on several occassions. The main reason he would do this is for money. However, he doesn't want the money for himself. As I mentioned earlier he rescued and practically adopted eleven elven orphans who along with him were the only survivors of his village. The orphans now live in a neighboring elven stronghold and he periodically sends them money. Last shipment was 150 gold. The elves that care for the orphans don't want the money, but he is adamanant about them having it so they can be trained well as warriors and not suffer the fate of their parents. The other reason he saves humans is so that his other party members don't face danger without him. However, (presently) if he saw a burning tree falling on a human woman and child, he would just say that is nature's way and not intervene. Torture is not out of the question. However he would only use it to learn extremely vital information, and only if it was a human adult male. Plus after he learnt what he wanted to know he would end their suffering. As for the last question, he wouldn't desecrate corpses. After every battle he buries the dead, even humans. Unless there are too many and they are monsters, such as goblins. In that case he just makes a massive bier. I wish I could remember most of the stuff I had typed earlier....gwar, oh well, hopefully these answers will provide you with what you wanted to know. Again, thank you for your assistance. Peace
LiXinjian 01-11-04, 06:03 PM	My opinion is that your character is evil, although clearly misguided. He's like a terrorist, really, with an alienated view on humans. Consider Venom. You think Venom is evil? He's trying to murder Spiderman, but considers all others innocent. Misguided villains are the best, from a DM's point of view.. Is Magneto evil? Certainly, but he's clearly doing what he thinks is best for mutant-kind. Even if your character doesn't kill children and women, how can NOT killing someone be considered a GOOD act? It's neutral, at best, unless they proved hostile to you in the first place and attempted to kill you or somesuch. In that case, you'd be showing them mercy, which IS a good act. By the way, it's a good thing your character is going to change his ways, because no DM in his right mind would let you murder people left and right without you ever suffering the consequences. There's so many adventurers out there, you'd soon find yourself a very very wanted elf.
He Who Is 01-11-04, 09:37 PM	I'm going to have to agree. Your characters views on life are of the evil nature. What races are your fellow paty members?
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 09:47 PM	Well, currently our party consists of a human bard, an elven monk, myself, and we just recently met a halfling rogue. Also someone just joined the game, so next session we will probably have another member added to the group. Also I have just been reading the alignment section in the Player's Handbook, and I think Lawful Neutral suits him best, because it says that you act as law, tradition, or personal code directs you. I think Quellyn has a personal code, albeit a warped one at this point. But then again he fits into the description of Lawful Evil as well...:confused: Anyway, hope the above information helps. If you need to know any other information that could help you to better determine an alignment, please ask. Thanks again. Peace
He Who Is 01-11-04, 09:49 PM	WHy doesn't your character kill the human bard?
ElvenEnigma 01-11-04, 11:02 PM	There are a couple a reasons on why Quellyn doesn't kill the human bard. However, in the beginning I did try to kill the bard on several occassions, ha. First off the bard has fought (albeit poorly) to protect Quellyn even when Quellyn didn't help out the bard. Second off, I failed to mention earlier that Quellyn dearly values the only possession left to him that reminds him of his mother. It is a masterwork harp. However, he has no idea how to play it. The bard has been helping him learn it and has even sung elven lullabies/songs that remind him of his past. Plus like most elves Quellyn loves music. Due to all these reasons Quellyn has confronted the bard and sworn never to kill him without reason (unless the bard did something dumb like attack him). So far that's about the closest thing to a friendship he has to human, and lately he has even been sharing food with the bard. He used to, but it used to be food he had smeared in mud, or otherwise general nasty food. Also I may add that the bard is very sympathetic towards Quellyn and has from the start been trying to talk to him and out of all the other characters even the other elf, he is the one who talks to him the most. Another reason why he likes the bard is because of all the tales he has of elven heroics/history that remind him of his blissful childhood before the slaughter of his people. It's only due to all these reasons that the bard still draws breath, ha. I hoped that answered your question, and if you have any more they are welcome. Also He Who IS, do you believe he would be leaning more towards the lawful axis or chaotic? I'm thinking lawful, but I'd like to see what other people think about this topic. Thanks again. Peace