Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cerulean_wings 03-30-08, 07:47 PM	Really. The idea popped into my mind, and I'd like to see if other have reasonable suggestions as to this... thing's background and reason it redeemed. After all, if Succubi and Eryneyes can redeem, why not the baddest and biggest of the bad? I picture a Redeemed Pit Fiend as a regular Pit Fiend with golden scales and glowing blue eyes. I can't think of a good background for one, or even a way that it Redeemed itself. Maybe fell in love with a Paladin? I don't know, again, you guys tell me your ideas, thoughts, whatever you can think of.
Paul_V 03-30-08, 08:54 PM	Or he was redeemed against his will. There's a mechanic in Book of Exalted Deeds that allows players (mostly Clerics or Paladins) to redeem villains. Why not the other way around? Technically, since Pit Fiends are "Always Lawful Evil", then they can't be redeemed, but if you're DM allows for Succubi and Erinyes then I believe he should allow Pit Fiends as well. Basically, your character was King of the Hill, torturing people and tricking mortals into signing pacts for their souls, when he was attacked and defeated by a band of adventurers. However, they were all Good, and as such, they refused to kill your character and instead tried to convert him. Since they were Epic adventurers (necessary minimum to try and take on a Pit Fiend), they had a lot of ranks in Diplomacy and he eventually failed his Will save enough times to become Lawful Neutral. Having seen the error in his ways, your character decided to pursue Good (perhaps inspired by the sheer power of the adventurers, remember Pit Fiends respect power) and after performing several epic deeds, he became Lawful Good and the gods granted him their blessing (aesthetic changes + conversion of abilities from evil to good).
runestar 03-30-08, 09:03 PM	Technically, since Pit Fiends are "Always Lawful Evil", then they can't be redeemed, but if you're DM allows for Succubi and Erinyes then I believe he should allow Pit Fiends as well. Actually, "alignment always XXX" means that there is still a very small chance (roughly 1%) that said creature will deviate from the suggested alignment. Given that there are almost infinite devils, this translates to a lot of pit fiends as well, which means that a few would have some alignment other than LE. Maybe a few might be LN, and perhaps an ultrarare one who is LG... But considering that they are the baddest of them all, I am thinking that it would take some monumental event to get them to have a change of heart, well over and above what would normally suffice for a lesser devil such as an erinyes. I will see what I can find...
Mad_Jack 03-31-08, 02:16 AM	Theoretically, with the right planning a high-enough-level party could knock down his Will save enough to try slapping a helm of opposite alignment on his head... If they got him down to negative HP he wouldn't have much choice since an unconscious being is always considered to be willing. Demons might find it to be a hysterical practical joke to do something like that. Or it's possible that he could be tricked into wearing it. Then again, considering this guy was a major bada$$ before converting, perhaps he was beating the hell out of some high-level adventurers on the material plane when the cleric of their group called out to their god - if an actual avatar of the god showed up, wiped the floor with him, then looked him in the eyes and pulled the whole shining-light power-and-glory thing on him, that might be enough to convert him, or at least start the process. Also, what would happen if either on purpose or accidentally the party somehow plane-shifted him to the Positive plane or one of the various Good-aligned planes? If he was somehow stuck on one of them for an extended period, it could change him. Going with the conversion angle, how about a paladin or cleric that somehow manages to imprison him somewhere, but gets sucked into the trap themselves? Decades or even hundreds of years pass with the pit fiend and high priest (or heck, how about a humble 1st level character?) stuck in a small area, both unable to harm each other and unable to escape. After decades of philosophical debate the cleric passes away, finally breaking the imprisonment, and the pit fiend emerges a truly changed being.
Drackthor 03-31-08, 04:58 AM	Really? A Redeemed Pit Fiend? I can't think of anything massively monolithic enough to convert him short of Pelor coming down and punching him in the head or something.
Panartias 03-31-08, 10:10 AM	Very hard to imagine! A Pit fiend is either an original Devil - old as the time/universe itself or was a lawful evil being once (perhaps a human) who died and was reborn as a larva in Hell (usually loosing the memory of his former live in the process). He then worked his way up to the top of the infernal hierarchy - proving himself to be lawful evil for at least many centuries - many Milena more likely... Or he was an angel/immortal spirit who opposed a good power/aligned himself with the dark gods/ the forces of law and evil. And you are aiming not for lawful neutral but for lawful good! That alignment is to steps removed from the standard; the changes would probably more dramatic than a change of skin and ey color since his power comes from Hell/Bathor an his hole being is connected to this plane. Plus he would likely be outright destroyed by the dark powers - or at least hunted down by all other pit fiends. OK - rant over! I have a few ideas - but I don't like them very much: -deck of many things - the card that gives the opposite alignment (would make him chaotic good) -quite poor devils; should be the ones to tempt mortals with a deck - not the ones tempted themselves -he worked with/was saved by adventurers/celestials against a greater evil (the demons) or the Apocalypse (like in Terry Pratchett's "Good omens"). Hmm - could make him lawful neutral at best... -he was mortal once and: ...lost a loved one. He tried to recover her soul at all costs - searching all of hell for this one soul; possibly fulfilling a personal vow. -he was always rather lawful neutral; more dedicated and ambitious than lawful or evil (mercenary in the bloodwar) - he sold his soul or his soul was sold (think of a father, who promised the soul of his firstborn to a devil) - possibly to accomplish some greater good... -he misused the power of his annual wish after being promoted to pit fiend (perhaps to finally learn where to find the beloved soul or to find a loophole in his contrakt...) Hmm - a combo of those could make an interesting character; but as DM I'd probably rule, that he could start as a lower rank celestial or would be reborn to the prime... ...you would have to tweak the conditions of his contract; perhaps he could partially wiggle out - enough to become good but not enough to get rid of his form. Or he kept the pit find form as kind of lawful revenge for the all along faulty contract/deal. He would need the support of some greater power to pull this off. Honestly - tough one! If you go for the look, try some half dragon. Gold dragon with some celestial/ good aligned giant/ Minotaur/ whatever. If you aim for the reformed devil/demon perhaps do it like in the TV-sequel "charmed". Cole/Balthazar starts as a half-demon/assassin falls in love with the witch he should kill and defends her. He gains the powers of the demons he destroys in the process..
Cerulean_wings 03-31-08, 12:53 PM	Whoa, so many replies! Thanks all for the comments/suggestions so far :) While there are mechanical ways to change a Pit Fiend's alignment, I'm personally looking for a story/background type of deal, such as an avatar taking pity on a wounded Pit Fiend, as Mad Jack suggested. What if the Pit Fiend falls in love with a Paladin through fighting Demons along with her for long enough? What if this one Pit Fiend pulls off a "Drizzt" and says "enough is enough!"? Sounds ideas, I suppose, but how to expand on them?
Paul_V 03-31-08, 01:41 PM	Well, one thing is necessary: You're going to need help. Self-discovered redemption on a Pit Fiend is asking a lot, since they're basically formed of (or infused with) the very evil and lawful essence of the plane they're in. Love is fine, though the events should take place in another plane, so that other Pit Fiends can't prevent it. Or, you can have your Pit Fiend to be someone who used to be very influential and became the target of a scheme (so common in the Hells) to take him down. You can have your character be ambushed by other Pit Fiends and then be affected by an alignment-changing spell. The other Pit Fiends, clever as they are, realized they couldn't just kill your character (your character wasn't dumb, and prepared a lot of contingency plans that would deal a terrible blow to his enemies in the event of his death), so they decided to turn him Good instead, which would strip him of his power over the lesser devils and effectively exile him from Hell. Too bad your character actually liked his new alignment, and instead of committing suicide or becoming a heartless mercenary, he decided to take revenge against his enemies.
Master_Vega 03-31-08, 06:07 PM	K'thar sat on his throne, grinning at the prospect of his scout's latest catch; a girl, an innocent. They had taken her alive from one of the more obscure temporally slow planes; he never asked which because he did not care. Today would be an interesting day indeed. Innocents made fine bargaining chips, and even finer snacks, or so the others said. In all honesty, K'thar only cared about the former thought; he did not have to eat, so buying power was much more beneficial in his mind. Enough of that, though, he was eager to see his prize, to know she was in his possession. Hours later, the innocent was led into his throne room and his boiling blood turned to ice. Before him was an impossibility. This one could not be in front of him; there was simply no way she could be. "Gail...?" he gasped. Such a reaction was unbecoming of a fiend, but so was staring your still-living daughter in the eyes... still only a child when she should have died more than nine centuries before. The girl paled and fearfully tried to back away from K'thar, but his servants kept her still. The pit fiend wanted to order his men to release her, but then she might run away into another devil's possession. No, he could not have that. He needed to think this issue over, and so he demanded, "Take her to her own cell and make sure she is looked after." The two devils were surprised, but it made sense. Letting such a prize lose value would be careless to say in the least. This was a problem indeed. His subordinates would undoubtedly share their recollection of this event with their comrades, and something terrible would come of it. K'thar shocked himself with that last thought; should he even care about her? It shouldn't matter if his scouts had brought him his own bride, but here he was worrying intensely over the girl who had just fallen into his assets. When he had lost Gail, she was in the care of his closest friend. He had ordered the man to take her someplace safe, as there had been a coup-de-etat planned by some of his most powerful subordinates and he would not have his daughter involved. Things went better than he had hoped for on his end, but much, much worse on his friend's. The wizard he had told to protect Gail had lost her on one of the planes, and could not find her. Before the man could explain, K'thar, then Jeremy Kaither, ordered him imprisoned. When his wizard failed to know anything about retrieving Gail, he was executed. Jeremy's paranoia grew over the years, and he slowly turned into an iron-fisted tyrant. When a coup finally did succeed, he was executed without an appeal. ... and so he was reborn in Hell, left to progress his way through the ranks and eventually become the pillar of evil he was now... But now, for the first time since his death one-thousand years ago, he felt remorse. He could no longer rule here, not while Gail still lived, not while the others could harm her just to hurt him. He would leave soon, and as covertly as he could, and he would take Gail with him. Not a switch to LG, but a start...
Cerulean_wings 04-01-08, 12:17 AM	Paul_V - A nice idea! It's a good start, as I'd like to expand on it; we're talking about the baddest of the baddies here (no reference to a merry Tauren intended), so he needs at least ten paragraphs to explain why he's not evil, methinks. Master_Vega - Nice write up, it's definitely a start. Heck, maybe it's the prologue to what Paul_V suggested...
Stormbrand 04-01-08, 02:43 AM	Important steps for interesting redeemed evil characters... - Must choose to change, to reject evil ways. Things can help them, but the decision must be ultimately theirs. - A motive to make that choice. Which must fit within their current evil mindset. - For fiends, some way to explain how they even had that choice in the first place (normally free will for a pit fiend is the option to torture with fire or instead use spiky things). - Who he is now. We have chosen what he chose not to be... what did he choose to be? - Now sticking with the choice. Make redemption hard work. Master Vega's work looks good. :)
Master_Vega 04-01-08, 11:43 AM	Thanks, Cerulean_wings, I had fun writing it. Strombrand -- I actually took inspiration from your redeemed blackguard character to write that pit fiend's introduction. Thanks for the compliment, though. :P
Disciple_of_Juiblex 04-02-08, 12:20 PM	here is a few ideas that poped into my head... 1) The pit feind was doing his job in the pit but kind of felt bad about doing it. He had a moral code but kept is hidden from all others and would try to do his duties so he wouldent get in trouble and demoted as such. One day he gets summoned to the material plane by a wizards, who laughs "i have broken your connection to the infernal plane, you are now my Servent!" he goes "huh, thanks" and promply kills the evil caster. he then tries to do his best and to make up for the time he hurt peaple, and trys to establish connections with groups in case his former masters show up. However i think really he start out as LN with NE tendencies and change to LN with LG tenencies. and then perhaps just LG. 2) The pit feind comes to an ephiphany (spelled wrong im sure) however he realizes he cant change on his own. so he seaks out a helm of opposit alignments ot a group of adventures who can convert him fully, while trying to battle his darker impulses. 3) If you also can change his alignment type( becuse even a LG pit feind will be Evil, and lawful) you could have him devolop split personalites, one evil that comes out under times of stress and his LG being his natural form. however what caused the division could be many diffrent things. 4) Amesiac pit feind a newly formed (with no strong memories) might be taken in by kind hearted person (or adventurer) who had no fear of it. While he would have a natural tendence to do evil and law the person is seen as am import figure so they try the best to win their affection. this raising might be enough to change its alignment. Or perhaps the feind slips up and kills the caregiver. this motivated it to try even harder to control its actions and fully commits itself fo LG. 5) it devolops love for a LG person and wants to be with them. perhaps it fought with them in some mighty battle or possibly it was a foe to that person for a long time and came to respect them, then trust, then love. 6) the feind becomes helpless, and might be somehow polymorphed into a frog or some sort of helpless creature. however in its weakend state a person picks it up and treates it like a pet. while restfull of this treatment he eventually gets to know affection and likes it. this motivates him to act diffrently and eventually the spell was broken and he desides he dosent want to do evil any more.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 03:26 PM	Is this some half ass way to incorporate a pit fiend as character into a LG campaign?Or what is behind this ludicrous idea?I don't think it makes any sense no matter how you try it.But feel free to do what ever ridiculous crazy things that come into your mind.It's your game after all.....
Paul_V 04-05-08, 04:07 PM	Is this some half ass way to incorporate a pit fiend as character into a LG campaign?Or what is behind this ludicrous idea?I don't think it makes any sense no matter how you try it.But feel free to do what ever ridiculous crazy things that come into your mind.It's your game after all..... Actually, I applaud his idea. Last time I checked, D&D was a game that allowed you to set the sky and your DM as the limit for what you could do. And forgive us all for not liking the infallible stereotypes of Evil being Evil and Good being Good.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 04:57 PM	More of an Archetype than a stereotype.I never said it wasn't possible, just that it did not make any sense. I don't care if you want a game that features LG Devils,or CE Celestials...but within the very loose constraints of DnD "reality" it sounds ridiculous to me. And since this is the character development board what does a pit fiend have to do with character development? Just out of curiosity....but maybe this belongs on the DM board? And not to rant or anything but am I the only person that thinks a *sensitive* pit fiend is just a tad far out? If the DM sets the limit,be it the sky or whatever...what would an epic level fiend turning to good have to do with the average group of players? Is this an attempt to incorporate one into a heroic campaign as a player? Or as a cohort /ally? I am entitled to my opinion dude,and I don't care for it There is my PEACH.Tune into next week's gripping thread, in which Heironious wears eyeliner and considers turning evil.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 05:09 PM	Actually, I applaud his idea. Last time I checked, D&D was a game that allowed you to set the sky and your DM as the limit for what you could do. And forgive us all for not liking the infallible stereotypes of Evil being Evil and Good being Good. Pit Fiends are the baddest of the bad,the very cornerstone of evil...infused with created by and fueled by the very antithesis of love/positive emotions.So in this case EVIL is EVIL.....WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM TO BE SOMETHING THEY OBVIOUSLY never ARE?And for the record always lawful evil means always....not most of the time or some of the time...they tear the heads from Paladins and then desecrate the bodies,not "fall in love with them while fighting demons"...and about the time this post mentioned the tv show "Charmed" i realised what i was dealing with....
Paul_V 04-05-08, 05:17 PM	Childish rant. Chill. Riiiight. It doesn't make any sense. Because Helms of Opposite Alignment and Decks of Many Things clearly do not exist. Of course, of course, my sincerest apologies. Newsflash: Just because you can't come up with an idea why a Pit Fiend would turn good doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't make sense. And also, I believe that what he's asking us is to HELP HIM FIND A WAY (Capslocked for easier understanding). Oh, I don't know... maybe he wants to PLAY one? Or he's a DM and wants an NPC to be that way? I've seen "Help me with my BBEG" threads here. Why should this be any different? Also, if someone's physically forcing or coercing you to click a link that says "Redeemed Pit Fiend" AND post a rant, then call the police. It's not our fault you can't refrain yourself from bashing the OP when he's only asking for help. Also, watch out for Acid and Fire damage, I heard you can't regenerate that.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 05:26 PM	Helms of Opposite alignment,deck of many things...pretty mundane items to attempt to redeem a pit fiend...why not just offer him a flower?If he wants to play one,why not just change the aligment and call it a wuss fiend? Reconsider this idea,it sucks.House rule it if you want. OK heres an idea...one day in Hell,the pit fiend discovers a back issue of cosmo and reads how it's really ok to explore his sensitive "feminine" side and how he really should embrace that...just at that time,along come a band of asshat adventurers with a helm of opposite alignment and a deck of many things....<spell resistance> after feeding them the deck of many things and lodging the helm deep inside the paladin's arse...he notices she's kind of cute.....
The_Shaman 04-05-08, 05:44 PM	.WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM TO BE SOMETHING THEY OBVIOUSLY never ARE?And for the record always lawful evil means always....not most of the time or some of the time.. Fallen angels - or any other similar creatures - are one of the oldest, most universal archetypes in existence, and you can find something like that in nearly any mythos, D&D ones included. So who's to say their mirror opposites - "fallen" fiends - can't exist? Also, there's one more thing: " A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil. Alignment is a tool for developing your character’s identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent. " Sound familiar? It should be. That's from the Player's Handbook, and it expressly says alignments are not solid, nor always consistent. While arguably outsiders are among the few creatures that are supposed to be completely consistent, that's the typical scenario. Throughout the planes and ages, there are probably a lot of untypical scenarios - and even a pit fiend may, in a 1:10,000,000 chance, turn away from the usual path. Darn unusual? Sure. Unthinkable? Likely. Impossible? No.
Paul_V 04-05-08, 05:48 PM	Helms of Opposite alignment,deck of many things...pretty mundane items to attempt to redeem a pit fiend...why not just offer him a flower?If he wants to play one,why not just change the aligment and call it a wuss fiend? Reconsider this idea,it sucks.House rule it if you want. OK heres an idea...one day in Hell,the pit fiend discovers a back issue of cosmo and reads how it's really ok to explore his sensitive "feminine" side and how he really should embrace that...just at that time,along come a band of asshat adventurers with a helm of opposite alignment and a deck of many things....<spell resistance> after feeding them the deck of many things and lodging the helm deep inside the paladin's arse...he notices she's kind of cute..... From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place. From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). Not Spell Resistance. From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings Balance The character must change to a radically different alignment. If the character fails to act according to the new alignment, she gains a negative level. Not even a save allowed.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 07:09 PM	The fiend easily makes a DC15 will save without even rolling it i might add...<+21 will save>and being an ancient evil outsider i doubt if it would even touch a deck of many things...and seeing as how the deck is random what would motivate the fiend to draw from said deck? Look,i am not saying it is impossible,just improbable.And yes there are examples of angels becoming evil,so the reverse could just as easily happen i imagine. And there are alot of things that in theory could happen,but won't,or shouldn't.It seems silly to me do you understand that?Maybe i am not thinking outside the box.He said the idea just popped into his head,it could easily pop out.Just think about it though.There are some conventions within the game that should be maintained.Not to mention as i said "i think it's a stupid idea". Pit Fiends don't just wander around alone for the most part,they tend to have large retinues following them around and to even contact an evil outsider is against a paladin's moral code....there are a dozen more reasons why this idea is retarded,but if you need me to point them out,you probably wouldn't believe or understand me anyway.
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 07:18 PM	And in the actual DMG it states that creatures with spell resistance do get resistance to spells or SLA,or SLE from items...i would love to see someone trying to redeem a pit fiend with the trinketry you mention.I think the Pit Fiend would die fighting before it fell for any such trickery.Unless you played it like a simpering idiot,or manipulated the outcome it would never happen.EVER. This is of course the actual pit fiend from Dungeons and Dragons,whatever you may happen to be playing might differ.Explain to me realistically within the game how this might be done and i will believe,i am a reasonable man.Also please explain the actual reasoning behind it and i might not react quite the same.But as it stands it sounds ridiculous. Redeem it by killing it,just don't make it lawful good because that doesn't make any kind of logical sense.What's next a six foot tall halfling,how about an ogre bard?Actually those two make more sense than a good "fiend".
The_Shaman 04-05-08, 07:38 PM	Oh, certainly it won't be anything even remotely common. Personally, I'm against the idea of using a Deck or much less a helm of opposite alignment - even the Deck might not work against a fiend of that caliber, and the helm is child's play to an a general of Hell's Armies. Maybe if it wore it for several years, awake or asleep - if they sleep - it could happen. If it were not completely absurd considering its knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom, that is. So we're looking at epic magic or something almost impossible - a genuine change of heart. Both would be almost impossible, and that's the way it should be, imo. Pit Fiends are big league boys and they deserve to be treated as such.
Paul_V 04-05-08, 07:57 PM	Manipulating the outcome it's a perfectly plausible option. Also: Why can Good be corrupted and Evil can't be redeemed? Why can Celestials Fall and Fiends can't Rise? Or are Celestials weaker than Fiends? That strikes me as terribly unbalanced. One more thing: Why post here if it isn't helpful to Cerulean_wings? Really. What will you accomplish with that? Peace of mind, achieved by convincing someone of your personal beliefs? We all get it, you think it's stupid and against everything Evil stands for, and Gary Gygax, may he rest in peace, is rolling in his grave right now. Message received.
The_Shaman 04-05-08, 08:15 PM	Rule 0 overrules every other, sure. However, AC has a point - whatever turns a Pit Fiend to any path but LE better be powerful. I agree that a simple Helm of Opposite Alignment doesn't quite cut it, unless the DM is just looking for the simplest plot device, and even then it feels damned cheap. I liked the idea that love could turn a fiend to another path, which WotC used in that succubus paladin somewhere on the site. However, it's best if the solution is tailored to the fiend. For a succubus, which is a creature of lust, love is a great answer - the light side of just the kind of darkness that she was. A pit fiend is a darkness of a different kind, and magnitude, and the event that turns it should be different as well. It is a creature of power, knowledge and leadership, and I think you should find the answer somewhere there. Perhaps after millenia of bloodshed, it realized that what it was doing was senseless - perhaps it was betrayed like Gerion, or achieved a victory so hollow that even its own black heart was pierced by the loss. Perhaps, it came to a place of power so pure that it was drawn to it, and changed by it... not just by the power of this place but by its own realizations and thoughts. Realizing that all you had ever wanted, strived for, sacrificed for - the principles that make up every fiber of your being - that all this can be wrong, and seeing the answer laid out before you with such force that you can not even think of a way to explain it... That is what can break someone, but it can bend them as well - whether they are angels, demons, or mortals. It's strange, but it can work. Regardless, there is imo one very important thing to bear in mind: a redeemed pit fiend is a unique creature, and a planar event of considerable proportions. Such a plot element should be developed carefully so it can be savored to its full potential. Putting a helm on it feels cheap, on a plot device of this magnitude is about as wrong as using a cheap, cloying parfume for the dinner when you propose to your fiance (or when you expect him to propose to you). Call me a snob if you will, but that's somehow offensive to what I believe proper storytelling should be.
runestar 04-05-08, 08:22 PM	Look,i am not saying it is impossible,just improbable.And yes there are examples of angels becoming evil,so the reverse could just as easily happen i imagine. And there are alot of things that in theory could happen,but won't,or shouldn't.It seems silly to me do you understand that?Maybe i am not thinking outside the box.He said the idea just popped into his head,it could easily pop out.Just think about it though.There are some conventions within the game that should be maintained.Not to mention as i said "i think it's a stupid idea". The point is that we are not rolling a d100 to decide if a random pit fiend should change alignment. The point is that now, it has, so it is pretty much a done deal. And the OP's wish is to be able to think up a perfectly viable backstory to rationalize this, not debate if it is even a viable route in the first place, because the very event which you claim is nigh impossible is treated as though it has already occurred!. So if you don't have anything useful to contribute other than "it won't work", please stop interfering with the current discussion. Personally, I'm against the idea of using a Deck or much less a helm of opposite alignment I agree - too deus ex. Not impossible though, but you will really have to go out of your way to explain that one to avoid making it sound too cheap. I remember reading in an old issue of dragon about a LN order founded by a LN astral deva and LN cornugon, who found themselves disillusioned by the blood war. They felt that good or evil could not be trusted with the universe as they were ultimately too vested with their own interests, and that law ought to the driving force instead. Perhaps something along this line? It wouldn't take place overnight, but maybe over the many centuries, something happened that slowly, but gradually and surely changed the pit fiend's outlook on things. Then one major event to act as a catalyst to finalize his alignment change. None come to mind at the moment though.:embarrass
ApollyonsChosen 04-05-08, 10:05 PM	Cerulean Wings initial post said that he couldn't think of any reason to justify such a transformation...let alone explain it.I am just trying to talk him out of it.The reasoning and use of such a creature has me interested to a degree,but i want to know if its an NPC,a pc,an opponent,the local pizza delivery guy,what? In principal things like fiends,undead and other creatures from the lower planes,and or fueled by negative energy are allergic to good in general and in the DnD continuity are not redeemable...but maybe some kind of divine influence is called for ,or an item of at least artifact status is a good place to start if you want to ignore the conventional lore of the game.Gods can in general do whatever they want,and as mighty as the pity fiend is it pales in comparison to a deity.Or have the Pit Fiend die,become a vestige and search out some lost love through the body of a human binder/or use said binder to regain corporeality...the possibilities are endless. And just becoming neutral would be a miracle for a Pit Fiend,the LG is what makes the idea seem so absurd,it is such a stretch. Also becoming good would have to have some serious physical/magical effects on a pit fiend.I would suggest stripping it of it's sla's,spell resistance and anything else magical,as these abilities are all fueled by it's now non-existent link to the lower planes..or better yet what seems more likely is it would cease to exist or free it's former soul to the afterlife...not to mention said lost souls former owner might be interested in tracking down said soul and then let the Arch Devil show up to deal with the traitor,to reclaim it's "property".This change sounds like a good campaign ender to me.With lots of room for epic adventures.But certainly implement it in such a way that it is believable and let the consequences fit the earth shattering nature of the change.
runestar 04-05-08, 11:17 PM	Cerulean Wings initial post said that he couldn't think of any reason to justify such a transformation...let alone explain it. Which is why he came here, to see if any of us had any better ideas, not to be shot down. In principal things like fiends,undead and other creatures from the lower planes,and or fueled by negative energy are allergic to good in general and in the DnD continuity are not redeemable... Allergic to good...? There are quite a few cases of risen (or fallen, depending on how you look at it) fiends in dnd lore. For example, I believe there is a neutral cornugon in sigil. Fall from grace of planescape: torment fame is another popular example. but maybe some kind of divine influence is called for ,or an item of at least artifact status is a good place to start if you want to ignore the conventional lore of the game. Nothing in the game even remotely states that they cannot change alignment. When you consider that even an alignment of "always X" means that there is still roughly 1% of the total population who tend to deviate from said alignment, and there is a near-infinite devil population (which in turn means a very vast number of pit fiends), even 1% is enough to mean quite a few pit fiends who are not LE for whatever reason. Mass numbers is more than enough to compensate for low odds.:) Unlikely perhaps, but certainly still falls short of the herculean task you are believing it requires. Also becoming good would have to have some serious physical/magical effects on a pit fiend.I would suggest stripping it of it's sla's,spell resistance and anything else magical,as these abilities are all fueled by it's now non-existent link to the lower planes..or better yet what seems more likely is it would cease to exist or free it's former soul to the afterlife... Where the heck are you getting your source of lore from? Simply changing alignment does not do anything to an outsider's abilities, though it is common to swap their alignment-based features around (such as replacing unholy aura with holy aura, blasphemy with holy word etc) to reflect their new outlook. It abilities are innate, meaning they are not drawn from any so-called link to any plane. The pit fiend in question sustains them itself, and will continue to do so even if it becomes LG. or better yet what seems more likely is it would cease to exist or free it's former soul to the afterlife...not to mention said lost souls former owner might be interested in tracking down said soul and then let the Arch Devil show up to deal with the traitor,to reclaim it's "property". Dude, they are their own soul's owners. Devils start out as lemures (made from bartered souls) who slowly work their way up the devil promotion ladder until they are eventually promoted to a pit fiend. They are free to do whatever they want with their lives. An archdevil may commission a hit on a redeemed pit fiend, but it would be more to erase such an "upfront", rather than to reclaim something that was never his in the first place. But certainly implement it in such a way that it is believable and let the consequences fit the earth shattering nature of the change. I doubt it. A pit fiend changing alignment is not something you see every day, but it is still just 1 person, and I doubt the heavens and hells are really that interested in it unless it proves to be a major nuisance or a key player in some monumental event.
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 12:03 AM	You don't seem to have much of a grasp on what a pit fiend really is...suddenly becoming lawful good certainly wouldn't give them different powers..they arent variant creature classes all of the sudden.I get my lore from twenty plus years of experience with the game in question...and in this edition or any other a lawful good pit fiend is a joke. You seem to want to make them common and in fact they are not.They are not free to do with their own "lives" whatever they please they are part of a strictly regimented military,social hierarchy,namely the Nine Hells,ultimately they all owe allegiance to Azmodeous,or some other greater devil.Yes there are many pit fiends...all of them evil.At least all of the ones that make any sense in DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS terms. And i still haven't heard one argument that makes this seem remotely plausible.Because it isn't.I am not trying to discourage anyone from implementing anything in their own game.Whatever you want to do with it hey knock yourselves out.I wouldn't ever have a LG fiend of any kind in my game because my players would think it was retarded.Maybe your players are different who knows. The Pit Fiend isn't LG and any examples of one being LG<WHICH DO NOT EXIST>deviate in the extreme from any kind of established Mythos.Is the original poster ever going to expound on this subject?I still want to know the deal behind this whole thing.No one else seems to know . How about a comic book featuring Superman as a homosexual bank robber?I mean i am sure gays rob banks just as much as any one else right?Superman fans would feel the same way as i do about this whole redeemed pit fiend nonsense.Even though Superman is hetero and seems to stand for law and order...see where i'm going with this? And as far as "allergic to good" i was referring to undead and creatures from the lower planes being turned by good clerics,harmed by positive energy etc.And you are right a pit fiend changing alignment is not something you see everyday.It is something you never see.No,nothing in the game states they cannot change alignment,the game assumes you have a little bit of common sense.So an officer in the Blood War is just going to walk off the job with no questions asked?etc. And finally in DnD anything is possible...limited only by your imagination.But as a fan of the genre i think the idea is lame.Wether it has happened or not whatever.And runestar who made you the moderator of this thread?You had more to say about my post than anything you had to say on the actual topic...and you didn't mention the actual constructive attempts i made in actually entertaining the idea...so step off man,this is a public forum and i can say what i want within the coc. Master Vega's write up was pretty cool though...i could see that sparking a shift in alignment if not a temporary change of heart.
runestar 04-06-08, 12:41 AM	You don't seem to have much of a grasp on what a pit fiend really is... Enlighten me then. suddenly becoming lawful good certainly wouldn't give them different powers..they arent variant creature classes all of the sudden. Why must it? And why should they be a whole new paradigm? To me, it is just as simple as switching alignments. Only problem is rationalizing it. You can choose to designate new abilities to reflect its risen status, but to it, it is entirely optional. I get my lore from twenty plus years of experience with the game in question...and in this edition or any other a lawful good pit fiend is a joke. Then show me the parts which explicitly state that a pit fiend must always be LE, and can never ever change alignments for whatever reason. You seem to want to make them common and in fact they are not. I only need one. They are not free to do with their own "lives" whatever they please they are part of a strictly regimented military,social hierarchy,namely the Nine Hells,ultimately they all owe allegiance to Azmodeous,or some other greater devil. Break away from this caste and they have all the freedom they need. And their duties are imposed on them from a higher authority, which has nothing to do with their own alignment, an innate trait and free of the meddling of other fiends. And i still haven't heard one argument that makes this seem remotely plausible. That just shows our own shortcomings in this aspect. It certainly does not prove that such a concept may be impossible. In the very least, I don't see what makes LG and a pit fiend mutually exclusive. There certainly isn't some clause in the pit fiend which makes it self-destruct if it ever switches alignment. How about a comic book featuring Superman as a homosexual bank robber? In theory, anything is possible if done right. It would take 1 heck of an artist and a superb plot, but who is to say it cannot be a runaway success if executed properly?
Master_Vega 04-06-08, 01:52 AM	Really not trying to add fuel to the fire. I just want to state my thoughts on the conversion of a pit fiend. Like with most anti-heroes or villains-turned-good, try playing on their weakness(es) to change their outlooks. Start small, and very close to the source of the flaw, but slowly branch out as to what affects the character as said character's heart softens. In he beginning I wrote earlier, I played off of the pit fiend's selfishness. What did he want more than anything during his life? He wanted his daughter back. Now that she's back, he does not want to lose her. She may be a prize to him, perhaps he has a Darth Vader complex (desiring to become the head of a big, bad, iron-fisted family), or it could be something else entirely. Whatever his vision is now, his daughter has become a permanent part of it and he can't lose her again. Because he is a being of foresight, he knows that once the other devils realize what's going on, they will try to take advantage of the situation. He must keep this integral part of his future, his daughter, safe or his visions will be shattered... and then he will be unhappy. "Wait, unhappy? Where did that come from?" he wonders... and as more foreign emotions and cares slip into his mind, he begins to change slowly. Over the course of decades, he becomes neutral, a ruthless defender of his lineage. Then, perhaps, after centuries of playing selective protector, he becomes good. That's only one concept, of course. I'm certain there are other arguments. As for all pit fiends starting evil... that's how I take the "Always evil" in their descriptor, however, I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility for this sort of conversion to have happened several times in the past. And a note on transformation: I've always imagined fallen angels losing their wings and figuratively tumbling to Earth (or, I suppose, Hell), where they wander until they either redeem themselves, or ally themselves with the forces of evil. When a fallen angel allies with evil, its powers have a new source, and it gains a new appearance to suit that source. In my games, I'd say a Pit fiend would have to ally itself with a deity or powerful force of good to again good-aligned powers and appearance. Perhaps a pit fiend who becomes neutral turns into a very powerful human (or whatever it was before it was a devil), and must ally itself with something to gain divine/abysmal powers again. This is just my take; no actual RAW (or so-proclaimed RAI) here. In the end, anything regarding change of appearance and abilities would be a house-rule, yes? Anyhow, I hope you guys find something useful in this wall of text. I don't intend to step in on the current (semi-heated) discussion, so I'd ask that you not flame me over this post. :P Edit: Finally, sorry for the post being kinda scatterbrained; It's kinda went ADD half-way through it. :D
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 09:59 AM	Here are a few interesting quotes from the Fiendish Codex."Like other creatures from the outer planes,devils are abstractions given a semblance of fleshly existence.Though they might appear to be biological creatures composed of flesh,bones,blood,and viscera,they are in fact magical expressions of particular universal concepts" HMMM Could the concept they mention be EVIL?On page 35 they are described as "irrevocably evil".And just from these limited sources it seems like a lawful good pit fiend would directly contradict possibility.They are formed from evil itself,they are bound to a plane of existence suffused with pure evil,and there are no exceptions unless you want to make something up that contradicts every known source of pit fiend lore i have ever seen.Which include the above canonical sources. A pit fiend cannot be LG.As i have said many times "within DnD".If you wish to step outside the established lore it starts to become something similar but a little different,to DnD i feel...So lets see irrevocably evil living abstractions of pure evil....so what there is this state of being known as "sort of "DAMNED?
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 10:01 AM	Runestar seems to want to argue with me.I am just waiting to hear from the guy who started the thread.Since i don't come here to argue.I wont gain any insight from sniping back and forth with other random posters.
SplendidTuesday 04-06-08, 10:56 AM	Here are a few interesting quotes from the Fiendish Codex."Like other creatures from the outer planes,devils are abstractions given a semblance of fleshly existence.Though they might appear to be biological creatures composed of flesh,bones,blood,and viscera,they are in fact magical expressions of particular universal concepts" HMMM Could the concept they mention be EVIL?On page 35 they are described as "irrevocably evil".And just from these limited sources it seems like a lawful good pit fiend would directly contradict possibility.They are formed from evil itself,they are bound to a plane of existence suffused with pure evil,and there are no exceptions unless you want to make something up that contradicts every known source of pit fiend lore i have ever seen.Which include the above canonical sources. A pit fiend cannot be LG.As i have said many times "within DnD".If you wish to step outside the established lore it starts to become something similar but a little different,to DnD i feel...So lets see irrevocably evil living abstractions of pure evil....so what there is this state of being known as "sort of "DAMNED? Well, aren't some celestial creatures the same thing, only Good? And look how many "fallen angel" stories there are. Angels are uncorruptablely good living abstractions of pure goodness, are they not? Like others in this thread have said, Pit Fiends can be Good, it's just extremely unlikely. EDIT: Wait, what? You refuse to debate with anyone other then your opposition in the argument because you won't gain any insight? You already HAVE gained insight. You know some of the many ways a being can change alignment. But, oh wait, even though you'd be fine with an angel/celestial changing it's alignment this way, you aren't comfortable with a Pit Fiend changing it's alignment because it's PURE EVIL, right?
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 11:39 AM	Look i just think it is sort of a pointless argument.I feel one way,others obviously feel another,no amount of words will change that.I wanted insight into the actual reason behind the thread,which only the starter of which could provide. Pit Fiends are not fallen celestials.....yes celestials can fall.Because they are at the pinnacle of morality and there is somewhere to go from there...down.But at the opposite end of the spectrum i don't believe the opposite is true.Or should be true.Whichever.You pay the ultimate price when you stop being a celestial or other good divine creature.The punishment for casting aside your beliefs is pretty much eternal damnation. But all that aside i don't really care.I think it is the lamest thing i have ever heard.It offends my sensibilities.And as much as i would like to argue in a circle about fictional things in a fictional world,i actually need to work on my own fictional world even more,it's game night. I think if someone mentions that retarded succubi paladin one more time in one more thread i am gonna wretch...this argument rests basically on fluff and not crunch..i think it contradicts all known fluff anyway but fluff is what it is..it's an argument i cannot win,regardless of how well i state my case.But still for the record it's the stupidest thing i have ever seen posted on this or any other board.
Jacob_Crowe 04-06-08, 03:16 PM	Okay, ignoring the appropriately icon'd naysayer, i'm going to toss in my ideas. HoOA was the first thing that came to mind here, and yeah, even i'll admit that it's the processed cheese food of plot devices. that aside, i did have two valid ideas that haven't been mentioned yet, and one or two that's probably just about as cheesy as not. 1) if you're using this Golden Scaled Pit Fiend as a plot device for a yet to be started campaign, how about this: Eberron. radical deviations from the alignment norms are not in the slightest something to scoff at in that setting. LG red dragons and CE silvers are not even a curiosity let alone an earth shattering, headline-making event. Bareyl, lets name him, could be any number of things in the "less black-and-white, more a-thousand-shades-of-gray" world of Eberron. he could be a minion of the rakshasa lord that is wrestling with that coatl in the depths of the Silver Flame, sent forth to murder the Cleric18 child prophet in her sleep, only to have the evil seared from him as he passed through the purifying light and heat; hell the idea of a defector from the age of deamons, one that helped the dragons and their allies in that mighty conflict, then just shacked up with some LG gold for a few thousand years, discussing philosophy for a while before getting the urge for a glass of Sharn Zinfindel is fully plausible. obviously his motivations would be different, but you get the general gist. 2) There are two classes in splat books with a stated and written code of Honor (yes, capsed) and two in the PHB that either are understood to have one, or could easily be following one of thier own... Knight(PHB2), Samurai(CW/OA),Paladin and Monk. Again, this is a setting-specific suggestion, kind of. It works best in an Oriental Adventures / Five Rings campaign, but not essential. Pit Fiends are well known to respect power, strength, might. If there was a Pit Fiend overlord, Bareyl, stationed on the border of the Shadowlands as the Crab clan is in the base setting of OA, he'd be faced with a near endless assault. Over the ages, it bears reasoning, he would be challenged to single combat by honorable warriors time and again. Well, since commanding grows boring after a while, he takes them up on it. Somewhere along the way this whole honor schtick gets in his head and he comes to an epiphany. There must be some sort of hidden power in the honor of these warriors, it has brought these warriors to a strength where they could actually challenge me, after all, which is no easy feat. (Remember, Doubt is one of the most insidious things in any world!) Just go from there. Now, the two slightly-to-moderately cheezy thoughts. A) Conspiracy: Here we have Bareyl, Exile. You see, he was a Pit Fiend, quite powerful and feared. Only trouble is, he never took the time to make any allies that weren't crushed under his heel first. Lots of resentment can, and did, arise from this. Land interests, mutual protection pacts, trade agreements, all laughed at. Sooner or later he pisses off enough of his neighbors that, despite all Devils supposedly being united against the Deamons in the Blood War, they form an alliance of their own. Against Bareyl. Allow a period of planning and waiting, say 6-9 months, for various Pit Fiend's annual Wish to come up. 7 carefully worded SLA's later, our friend (or is it fiend?) and neighbor Bareyl is sitting in the middle of a field, LG and golden scaled, on the prime material plane, wondering why this farmer is staring gape-mouthed at him and soiling his overalls. i think that's only about 2/5 wheels on the cheese-o-meter, up to you and my peers. B) Trickster: sorry, running out of ideas, or rather available vocabulary, but the brief rundown of this will have to do until i go back and edit this to its completion. Chosen of Olidimarra, Rogue and Vagabond decides he's gonna play the ultimate joke. blah blah, convinces Bareyl to use his annual wish to make himself into the ultimate enemy of his eternal foes, the Deamon hordes. :poof: he's LG, and angry as anything. this one rates a 4/5 wheels i think. BTW, can't not say it, but ApollyonsChosen you seem to forget that Lawful Good does NOT translate to Lawful Nice. See Also: the Crusades.
Jacob_Crowe 04-06-08, 03:23 PM	How about a comic book featuring Superman as a homosexual bank robber? See Also: Emperor Joker.
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 04:07 PM	I don't think the crusades were undertaken by people acting within the constraints of LG.Being involved with the church during that period of time was probably more akin to the opposite. I did offer some constructive comments before it devolved into flame or be flamed.My personal thoughts on the subject make me a poor choice to advise the initial poster,but hey there are two sides to every coin and i am the dark side of the coin.I am not here to insult anyone or anything negative like that. People keep talking about fallen angel stories,yet from what i understand there are no "risen fiends" stories.Some low level fiends have been mentioned as being redeemed<wretch succubi paladin>the cornugon etc,but they are are far cries from the Pit Fiend. Besides dimes for dollars,i bet this is just what i described in my very first post.A half ass attempt to justify using a pit fiend as a PC or an ally/cohort.And sure,there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself<unless game balance is an issue>..but as far as story telling you need to hammer some sqare pegs into round holes and no matter how you write up it sounds ridiculous.This is not western judeo christian ,mythology or any other genre,this is DnD,and in such context it is silly plain and simple.There should be some absolutes involved.And by some peoples logic here there would be LG societies of Pit Fiends..If any one can write this up in a way that it makes sense i will salt and eat my 3.5 collection....
Master_Vega 04-06-08, 04:24 PM	People keep talking about fallen angel stories,yet from what i understand there are no "risen fiends" stories.Some low level fiends have been mentioned as being redeemed<wretch succubi paladin>the cornugon etc,but they are are far cries from the Pit Fiend. This isn't from D&D, but... Ever played Devil May Cry? I'd say Sparda (Dante's father) would qualify as a redeemed fiend of a magnitude near a pit fiend's. Just a thought. Anyhow, is it truly fair that the pillars of evil cannot raise, and the pillars of good can fall? Sounds rather imbalanced to me... why hasn't evil won already if that's the case?
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 05:05 PM	Because good is in general more powerful than evil by default in fantasy literature. And if this were a "Devil May Cry rpg" site i would entertain the idea you mentioned.I was discussing Dungeons and Dragons,and Pit Fiends in particular.Damned.Pit Fiends are "irrevocably evil" according to information i have on hand and my insticts tell me the same thing. But if you wish to pervert the established lore and alter them to fit your game universe that is entirely ok.No one will stop you.But really i think the reason Cerulean Wings couldn't find a reasonable backstory for this ridiculous concept is that one does not exist. And is it possible for someone to post something without quoting me first?Perhaps with some kind of logical,plausible reason why and or how this change is possible? If you take something composed of evil incarnate,and somehow through whatever miraculous means allow it to be good,it wouldn't really be what it was initially...so why not turn it into an appropriaTe CR celestial?Unless you just want access to fireball and meteor swarm as SLA'S?Fallen celestials certainly take on altered physical characteristics.But besides all that rubbish why would you want to do this anyway?
Master_Vega 04-06-08, 06:12 PM	Really? To me, evil and good seemed more balanced with each other in D&D 3.5. Granted you do have somewhat of a point, the closest thing to a celestial footsoldier stomps the fiendish footsoldiers... unless of course you consider creatures with the Celestial Template as part of the Celestial army. But there are also no CR20 angels. I suppose Good is at the mercy of adventurers and dragons. :P The OP never stated what D&D setting he wast talking about. If he's talking about Grayhawk, you're probably right. If he's talking about Eberron, though, there's nothing to stop any creature from being any alignment. Eberron consists mostly of shades of gray (if I recall correctly, there are even good undead... from the way my friend described them, they were good versions of liches.) To put it more clearly, in Eberron, I don't think there is a true manifestation of evil, so pit fiends are something else instead. I personally never run/have played an existing D&D setting. I prefer to craft my own worlds to keep my players on their toes. ;)
ApollyonsChosen 04-06-08, 11:23 PM	I wasn't aware that Ebberon had it's own unique cosmology.I know it had some variants on classic monsters and races.My knowledge of the setting is limited. But if it alters the pit fiend in such a drastic way i hate it already lol.There are some aspects of the setting i have seen and would consider stealing for my own campaign however. I think its hilarious that this thread raged on without the initial poster ever returning.I also never thought i would ever be quoted so many times in my life.But its all in good fun.I am still working on this whole "useful internet community member" thing.I still want to know whats behind the whole thing. And if you need a CR 20 celestial just add some class levels and or templates to an astral deva.I guess thats the only way i envision this whole change taking place, a complete transformation.Slapping an alignment switch on the fiend of fiends just seems horribly contrived.
runestar 04-07-08, 07:26 AM	Anyways, for whatever it is worth, I do recall seeing at least 1 or 2 risen fiends in established dnd lore. One was a neutral fiend in Sigil. Can't quite remember the rest offhand, but I am sure they exist.:)
The_Shaman 04-07-08, 09:13 AM	Wait, did they admit Fall from Grace in the official lore somewhere, or was there another neutral fiend in Sigil? Then again, it is Sigil, so it wouldn't be so surprising.
Ragitsu 04-07-08, 01:31 PM	This game is about OPTIONS not LACK of options. Please don't feed the troll.
ApollyonsChosen 04-07-08, 06:20 PM	I believed i mentioned the cornugon,and the succubus already.Not really on par with the Pit Fiend.LOOK it's been established many times already that whatever you want to do can be done in DnD.But having it make sense to the general public or anyone else is another matter entirely. Risen fiends...i believe the cornugon you spoke of was neutral right?Not exactly risen if you ask me.And the succubus was fan fic,not exactly established lore in my opinion. Stop treating the Pit Fiend as if it were some mortal creature not composed of pure evil magical energy.Irrevocably evil,always LE....etc etc.I know i can't be the only one out there who thinks it is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Besides the Pit Fiend was created by somebody i wonder what their take on this would be?I bet they would laugh in your face.Not sure if it was Mr Gygax himself or whoever it was but hey....i bet they would tell you the same things i have said a million times already.If you try to make it LG you are making it something completely different,your own lame ass creation of suck and fail.Not a pit fiend. And for the record i am not a troll.And even if i was i would still think a LG fiend was the biggest load of crap i had ever heard of.
Master_Vega 04-08-08, 12:32 AM	Stop treating the Pit Fiend as if it were some mortal creature not composed of pure evil magical energy.Irrevocably evil,always LE....etc etc. He can do what he wants, actually. Perhaps in his game, morality is not the same as it is in D&D? Perhaps morality in his game is subjective? That'd make it pretty hard to be the epitome of evil, when there is no consistent evil. :P Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, but stepping on someone else's doesn't help your case. I know i can't be the only one out there who thinks it is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Well, currently, it seems like you're the only one who's responded who does. :) Besides the Pit Fiend was created by somebody i wonder what their take on this would be?I bet they would laugh in your face.Not sure if it was Mr Gygax himself or whoever it was but hey....i bet they would tell you the same things i have said a million times already. I never personally knew Gary Gygax, or whoever introduced the concept of a pit fiend to D&D, but I bet they wouldn't care, or would encourage him to make the game and its creatures his own... This is simply the kind of attitude I'd expect of the designers of a truly open-ended game. If you look in the DM's guide, it seems the current authors are all about creating your own stuff, and bending D&D to your own concept. If you try to make it LG you are making it something completely different,your own lame ass creation of suck and fail.Not a pit fiend. And for the record i am not a troll.And even if i was i would still think a LG fiend was the biggest load of crap i had ever heard of. If you're not a troll, then stop posting in such a passive aggressive manner. It tends to tick people off, which happens to be the goal of most trolls. You can keep your opinion that this is the dumbest concept you've ever heard of; that's fine, just don't expect all of us to convert to your side of the argument, especially when you keep passively insulting everyone who's tried to be helpful and offer possible explanations for the OP. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. :D Anyhow, I think we've wasted enough of this thread creating fuel for a flamewar. Shall we get back to productive posting?
ApollyonsChosen 04-08-08, 04:51 PM	If anyone is a troll it is the OP.Who has been conspicuously absent for quite some time. Maybe in his game,the world is ruled by pink unicorns with horns composed of hard candy.So what.They would be his own unique creation and i have never argued against that.And a pit fiend who was LG would be the same thing.I am just trying to say that for the record it violates the logical definition of what fiends are. I think the idea of a LG fiend is outrageous.The thought of a neutral one makes more sense,even though neutrality seems more like the lack of an alignment than an alignment itself. I am not trying to force anyone to conform to my belief,pit fiends being defined as "irrevocably evil always lawful evil magical constructs of pure evil" is straight from the WOTC products featuring said fiend.How something like that could turn to LG and still exist is pretty out there man.If you don't agree then you are just being contrary which many people here on this board would argue the color of the sun if i were to mention it. It's isn't against the rules it just defies convention,logic,and common sense. And i seriously doubt if it were intended that this fiend be an enemy of any group of pc's,it sounds like an excuse to drag the mighty pit fiend through some **** LG trip to munchkin land as a pc or an ally.Both of which would be pretty much explicitly denied by the rules if that is what makes everyone so happy,having a rule for or against something. I feel rather strongly on this issue,but at the end of the day determined people will do as they please,it won't effect me in the slightest.But i can come here and comment on it,which the OP invited upon himself with his initial post.
ApollyonsChosen 04-08-08, 04:59 PM	It's your game after all..... I believe my very first comment covered most of what you were trying to convey.Well Master Vega,outside of writing the fiction explaining it,mechanically within the rules of the game explain to me how this would ever happen?I mean for god's sake fiends have their alignment stated in their subtype,as magical creatures,outsiders alignment means much more than it does for the average PC. It cheapens the whole concept of evil,if there is no pure evil.
The_Shaman 04-08-08, 07:09 PM	Not quite, it brings an interesting moral viewpoint on it. A fiend is evil incarnate, just like a celestial is good incarnate etc. However, if a celestial or a fiend can fall, this would imo sound a bit like a tenet many religious doctrines share: the material world is inherently flawed, and everything that is made flesh is imperfect. Thus, even celestials or fiends are imperfect in their good or evil - everything, given form, is made impure. It is an interesting presumption, I would say. However, I think this is not the case at the moment. As the OP said and as I believe all of us here at one time or another agreed, it is not impossible: just a matter of astronomical odds. Well, since we only want 1 redeemed pit fiend out of all of Hell's legions, ever, that should be feasible. Now let's get back to finding what is big enough to make a PF fall, if we may, and stop the namecalling. Unless, I presume, that is the reason this thread continues.
ApollyonsChosen 04-08-08, 07:52 PM	I liked my idea about the fiend becoming a vestige and using a human binder to either contact the love interest that initiated the alignment shift or to somehow come back from the beyond where vestiges dwell....but nobody commented on that.They were too busy refuting my objections to the concept. The concept still makes me cringe,but i am going to challenge myself to come up with some way that it would be possible,a heady challenge.I am still curious what the use for the monstrosity is.Anybody know?
Cerulean_wings 04-09-08, 03:31 PM	*comes back after a while to check for replies* *stares at number of posts and their length* *more staring* *blink blink* Oookaaaaay. I never thought that such a "simple" topic could spawn such heated debate! Since I don't have the time to read all posts in full detail now, I'll just say this: thank you all who posted here and contributed to the discussion. ApollyonsChosen - I don't know what your problem is. If I want to play a redeemed Pit Fiend, why can't I? People can play fallen angels or other Redeemed monsters (with the Book of Exalted Deeds for that), right? If you want to quote some rule in the books that says "no, it ain't happening", be my guest, but that doesn't mean that I can't still pursue this idea. After all, rule 0 is the one rule to rule them all, yes? If my DM - or heck, if I as a DM - allow for such a thing, then it's doable. That's that. If you don't think it's possible, why bother posting here? I asked for ways for a pit fiend to redeem himself, not for "reasons it can't happen". Sheesh. I really never expected this whole deal to turn into such a debate, almost rivaling alignment/paladin threads! Thank you Paul_V and Runestar, and many others that made an effort to steer things in the right path during my absence :) And now, to answer the billion dollar question, "why I started this thread": because as a DM I like to create new, cool stuff for my players to deal with. And as a player, I like to utilize new, cool stuff for my DM to deal with :P Simple as that.
Paul_V 04-09-08, 09:00 PM	I'm smiling smugly right now. :D <-- like that. Cerulean_Wings, have you found anything interesting? Anything you'd like us to expand upon?
The_Shaman 04-10-08, 01:11 AM	ApollyonsChosen - I don't know what your problem is. If I want to play a redeemed Pit Fiend, why can't I? People can play fallen angels or other Redeemed monsters (with the Book of Exalted Deeds for that), right? If you want to quote some rule in the books that says "no, it ain't happening", be my guest, but that doesn't mean that I can't still pursue this idea. After all, rule 0 is the one rule to rule them all, yes? If my DM - or heck, if I as a DM - allow for such a thing, then it's doable. That's that. If you don't think it's possible, why bother posting here? I asked for ways for a pit fiend to redeem himself, not for "reasons it can't happen".. Dude, he did say it's not impossible, but would involve epic magic or some such. Which, I think, is quite the defensible position.
ApollyonsChosen 04-10-08, 11:22 AM	Divine Power and multiple deities might fit the bill.Seeing as how fiends are composed of the same material as the planes they originate from,some entity or entities that could alter realities seems to be what you would need. I don't have a problem with it really though.I posted here because you asked the question,how to redeem a creature capable of ruling an entire lower plane,in the right incarnation. I argued against it with good reason.Especially with some of the silly methods people were suggesting.If you wanted a cool npc or even some munchkiny pc,you wouldn't want his backstory to make him look like a rube would you?A pet or a POW?Anyway Master Vega's write up was pretty cool ,even though most fiends would just as easily sacrifice a "loved one" as anyone else,they aren't known as devils for no reason. Any and all of the ideas <even mine> posted as far are really quite a stretch.If you want something that is cool perhaps something a little bit less ridiculous might be the way to go.I am not here looking for cookies,i am just being honest.
Cerulean_wings 04-10-08, 01:45 PM	Dude, he did say it's not impossible, but would involve epic magic or some such. Which, I think, is quite the defensible position. If he meant that, it didn't sound at all like he did, I'm afraid. But that being the case, I agree, epic magic would be involved in order to Redeem a Pit Fiend. Paul_V - Well, let's see here *digs through stacks of posts containing suggestions* Master Vega suggested that "foreign emotions" would get into the Fiend's mind over time as he considers what's happening to his daughter (in the case that the Fiend has one, that is). That's an awesome start, but my desire is to keep expanding upon that solid base :) So. A Pit Fiend who feels "unfulfilled", "unhappy" and so many other "un"s that it's driving him crazy... how do we proceed? Does the Fiend mess up and gets kicked out from Hell in one single move like, say, killing a slaver devil in order to protect a slave a la Prince of Egypt? Or maybe something gradual, little things that he does that are definitely not Evil? Maybe both? I'm open for ideas :cool:
ApollyonsChosen 04-10-08, 03:02 PM	The average pit fiend<but that does not seem to be what we are considering>would roast it's own daughter on a spit,reveling in the evilness of its actions.Seeing as how it has not been mortal for centuries or millenia,or if it was recently promoted quickly up the chain,reserved for the blackest of hearts and most despicable of villains. And in any of the Hell's i doubt if they politely ask you to leave/kick you out. Some interesting points to ponder...if banished would it return to the plane of it's origin?Like paladin's losing their abilities what would become of it's hellfire like abilities?Where would such a creature find acceptance?How would LG champions view/treat this epic curiosity?Surely centuries of despicable evil could not go unpunished.....it sounds like it could generate some rather unusual roleplaying moments.Like the retribution one could expect from the Pit Fiend's superiors<this isn't a peon like the succubi or cornugon,rather high up in the infernal hierarchy is the pit fiend>.Unless of course you have some home brew context/ecology behind the Pit Fiend. But even still i don't see any compelling arguments/story elements worthy of changing a Pit Fiend into a LG creature.Even though i may be the voice of dissent here at least i am honest enough to let you know that if you want to do this and do it well,keep digging.Unless you just want it done and over with feel free to write it up however you want.But do share the results as i would love to hear how it works out. And if this is being used in your campaign,what it would be used for might help those who were trying to help you put it in perspective and further your cause. Cerulean i apologise for muddying up your thread and i might not have been the most positive force present,but as a fan of the genre,the Pit Fiend in general.i had to put my two cents in.I only wish i could think of some reason for it,i have yet to.
Paul_V 04-10-08, 07:26 PM	Foreign emotions? That should be feasible with some 9th level spells. Now, there are three main options here (both use the same spells/mechanics, the only difference is the fluff): A) Your Pit Fiend was ambushed by other Pit Fiends as an attempt to get rid of him/undermine him/punish him, but couldn't kill him, so they did the next best thing (a plotline I suggested before, if I recall correctly). B) He was summoned to the Material Plane by a BBEG to kill an adventuring party. The party prevented the Pit Fiend from escaping (Dimensional Anchor/Maze/Imprisonment) and got rid of the BBEG very easily (assume the Cleric hadn't prepared Banishment that morning). Then, since they couldn't risk the Pit Fiend escaping, but were firm believers that Redemption could reach anything, they decided to convert him. C) Your Pit Fiend had been plotting to kill a minor deity of Good, as a part of his scheme to destroy Goodness forever. However, before the plot could come to fruition, the deity learnt of the plan and managed to prevent his/her assassination. Enraged, he/she decided not to kill the Pit Fiend, but to turn him into the very thing he despised the most: Pure undilluted goodness. I'd go with C, just for the sake of believability, as A and B require multiple spells from very varied spell lists (Mostly 9th level). The basic intention of both the devils and the adventuring party is to try to make him feel something other than hatred, anger and all the normal evil emotions (having him imprisoned in the Material Plane or a Good-aligned is a requisite). After weakening him with magic, they would bombard his soul with positive emotions, over and over again, day after day. Eventually, when his enemies judged him completely broken, they used Atonement on him, permanently shifting him to LN. Rinse and repeat for LG.
Cerulean_wings 04-11-08, 01:49 PM	ApollyonsChosen - Apology accepted :) It's good to have someone playing Devil's Advocate for anything, really, since you get to see the aspects of your idea that aren't as good as you though. You make one point I agree with wholeheartedly: a Redeemed Pit Fiend is a one in a billion, no less. Getting one to be like that is, well, epic. Paul_V - The options seem reasonable, especially the Deity transforming the Fiend, but... I would prefer a more subtle, gradual approach. It's too simple, too straightforward for my tastes to have a Fiend being Redeemed like that. Which brings us to my most recent idea: The Fiend goes in disguise to spy upon a Lawful Good cleric who took more Vows than you can count with your fingers, and he wishes to corrupt her. However, not only is he unable to corrupt said cleric, the Fiend is intrigued by her devotion and selfless sacrifice ("why is she donating money if it isn't for future favors?!"). Slowly but surely, the opposite of what the Fiend wanted to happen occurs: HE goes to the Light side! What sayest thou?
Master_Vega 04-11-08, 04:38 PM	Cerulean_wings -- To take a page from AppolyonsChosen's book, a normal pit fiend would roast even the most important person to him just because... what makes the cleric special, or is the pit fiend weakly devoted himself? Is the pit fiend afraid to kill her because he believes such an act will draw her deity upon him? Is he too devoted to his project to give up and kill her? Just some thoughts.
Paul_V 04-11-08, 05:14 PM	Or... He could've been bound to a very powerful Wizard/Cleric/Warlock that was Good or was redeemed (works better if she was redeemed after binding him), and who shared countless years beside her. From then on, it can proceed as you suggested (I added this part so the Pit Fiend would HAVE to stick around her no matter what).
ApollyonsChosen 04-11-08, 07:25 PM	I was thinking that rebellion has always played a large part in the psyche of the common Devil.Turning away from evil could signify the ultimate act of defiance,or such a move could be made to spite a superior...it would be interesting to see hate become the motivation behind good. In general,fiends deeply resent being bound and go out of their way to screw over whom ever it may be that has bound them.But i don't see why that must always be the case.But i would definitely suggest that if you go this route to have the spellcaster be of a relatively long lived race,if not undead,something like the good aligned liches from FR.I imagine it would take a seriously long time for this change in attitude to come about. Who would trust this creature?And he would definitely want to avoid any spellcaster that could send him "home".Is there any reason in particular why LG is important?Neutral seems so much less of a stretch but i guess in the end it's all relative.Unless you want him to have Paladin levels or something ha ha.Which poses an interesting question.Could he channel positive energy?Without harming himself?Poses a few interesting questions to say the least.
Heliomance 04-11-08, 11:33 PM	The first sign that something weird is happening should be that he says "please" to another pit fiend, and then looks shocked.