Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ant1ers 10-31-06, 12:56 PM	First, I am aware that there is a thread around on playing a 3 Charisma character. It seemed that the best suggestion on it though was Tourettes Syndrome or some similar ailment, and neither the group nor myself is comfortable with that. Now, a little backstory. While rolling up my latest char (a wood elf barb) I was lucky enough to get the following stats: 17, 17, 16, 14, 11, and 5. I put the five in charisma, as I dislike playing low Int. characters. With the racial modifier of -2, that brought me to 3 Charisma. My question, of course, is how to roleplay that. I was thinking extreme facial disfigurement (explained in the background as torture burns - think something like house of wax) and a wallflower personality. In your opinions, would that be sufficient, or is more needed? Thanks for any help.
Lilt 10-31-06, 03:47 PM	I'm playing a charisma 4 character right now... I'm also glad that I'm not the only person who has realised that low charisma is not incompatible with roleplaying. My own oppinions go something like this: Low charisma is not cool. He's not dark, brooding, and mysterious. He's not the intimidating headstrong barbarian. He could be quiet or loud, perhaps either in different circumstances. He'd be an individual, even if he was in a group, and what he does say something then it is likely to have few social graces attached. One of the most charismatic guys I know has tourettes. Pete who won the last big brother had tourettes too, and I'd have described him as highly charismatic. If you were to go for a mental difficulty then I'd have gone for something like autism which poses a real bounding block to social interaction. My charisma 4 dwarf tends to keep dogs as he was largely avoided by people. He can at-least tell the dogs to do tricks (he has some ranks in handle animal, although it is charisma-linked so he's not that good at it). He never really felt much kinship with the dwarves, and doesn't understand why there might be animosity with the elves. As the dwarves kept him at a distance, he made a logical leap that perhaps he should try living with the elves for a bit and declare his hatred of the dwarven race and shaved off his beard. That bought him a bit of credit but eventually they realised that he was just annoying and so pushed him away, propting him to leave once more. Okay, I do like a bit of a silly twist on my RP too, so I gave him a quiet yet somewhat high and squeaky voice. So sue me :D
JulesCARV 10-31-06, 04:40 PM	As far as I can tell, wood elves don't have a -2 charisma modifier. They have -2 to constitution and intelligence, but charisma? That is, unless your DM modified them. I'd play it as someone who isn't very good at interacting with people, and, moreover, doesn't really like interacting with people. He stutters, and has difficulty putting a coherent sentence together (not for lack of intelligence -- just always feels flustered and embarassed about saying anything), but even if he were the smoothest guy around, he'd be happier alone. Of course, now we're getting from an ability score into a personality, so take it or leave it. In addition, if he's ugly and deformed, well, that's good too. (I'm in the minority that thinks physical appearance can be one of several factors with an impact on charisma, depending on the character. Most disagree, though)
Carey Z W 10-31-06, 06:13 PM	Low Charisma doesn't mean ugly, it means your force of personality. Just because you have a low does not mean you are horribly disfigured or anything, it just means you are inept in social situations. This could be because your character has troubles with the common language, and because of that, he doesn't like to talk much, He could just be incredibly shy, and would rather not talk and just listen, and when forced to talk, he says little, and responds only to direct questions, Or he could be the opposite, talk a lot, but in a very rude and annoying way, causing people to dislike him. As you are a woodelf, I would suggest going with either the shy concept, or the inable to speak properly concept. They would fit better racially.
Max the Immortal 10-31-06, 06:41 PM	I'd say you don't even have to make him scarred or ugly, though he'd probably be rather plain-looking (for an elf). Sure, disfigurement fits too, but only if you really want it to. Just take the wallflower idea and run with it. He can be very quiet and shy, and maybe stammer a lot when he talks to people he doesn't know very well. I also like Lilt's idea of having him relate to animals better than to people.
Branto 10-31-06, 08:46 PM	As Carey said, Charisma is completely separate from physical attractiveness (otherwise, almost any type of damage to your health would also come with charisma damage) However, I disagree about it being social skill, either... I mean, aren't there actual skills for social skill, like bluff and stuff? Personally, I think Charisma is simply the strength of your personality, with accompanying affects like confidence levels and ego size. So someone with high charisma is going to be a really entertaining, self-confident character. Someone with low charisma is going to be humorless and boring.. And if you want someone who really thinks like a machine, give them low charisma AND wisdom but very high intelligence. ;)
ant1ers 11-01-06, 12:37 AM	Thanks for the help y'all. I know that most of you disagree that charisma and appearance are linked, and while I personally agree to a certain point, ugliness past a certain point would negatively affect the force of your personality - people simply would not be able to get past it. However, this is probably not the time for that discussion lol. I like the idea of being more comfortable with animals than people - that totally fits the character's background, as does the shyness. I think I'll roll with those. Plus the torture based disfigurement, of course. My DM loves it when we give him those plot hooks. As a sidenote, the -2 Charisma was in order to be able to take a +2 Str, +2 Dex race.... my DM had visions of a trail of slaughtered minions stretching from China to New York. Not that I would ever be responsible for something like that of course.... I mean frenzied barbarians don't cause that much damage, right? :D
Lilt 11-01-06, 08:38 AM	I am of the oppinion that low charisma does not imply ugliness, nor vice-versa. Certainly being ugly can have a negative impact on social ability, whilst having a low charisma can have a similar impact on social ability, but to claim that there is a link is getting close to a logical fallacy... IE: a -> c b -> c but that does not mean a -/-> b or b -/-> a If you want to play someone ugly then consider something using either the Flaws system or the Traits system from Unearrthed Arcana. A Hideous Deformity/Scarring flaw might give -4 on Diplomacy, Gather Information, and some other check (I personally do not believe that deformation would affect Bluff, UMD, or Handle Animal, perhaps Disguise?).
Max the Immortal 11-01-06, 01:25 PM	ugliness past a certain point would negatively affect the force of your personality - people simply would not be able to get past it. It's not that the people you meet can't get past how you look. It's that YOU can't get past it.
Branto 11-01-06, 05:42 PM	I checked Charisma in the back of the Player's Handbook, and actually.. it says that part of it IS physical attractiveness... I however still think that makes utterly no sense for reasons of game mechanics, for the following reasons: My earlier mentioned example that taking damage in combat would result in charisma damage from scars and such. You could use the Disguise skill to buff your own charisma. Charisma couldn't carry over completely when you change or swap bodies, such as from using Magic Jar or reincarnate. Races would have different charisma levels when dealing with different races, ie a half-orc might have charisma 8 when dealing with an elf, but 14 with other half orcs. The forces of the universe would judge a sorcerer on looks. ;)
Lilt 11-02-06, 03:06 AM	It's not that the people you meet can't get past how you look. It's that YOU can't get past it.Well, on some levels the fact that a character is ugly might well explain why their character hasn't developed pmentally as other characters may have. I still don't think that justifies torture scars or anything else done more recently than early childhood. It'd work more like exercise/unexercise than a direct relation, like how being a farm boy or a wizard's assistant doesn't nessecarily make you stronger, but because you exercise your strength or intelligence more it would probably end-up higher. Still, I don't know how much physicsal attractiveness really does play a part in a child's charisma development.
JulesCARV 11-02-06, 04:04 AM	I think that charisma means different things for different entities. For example, take 14 charisma as an example: fairly charismatic, but nothing out of the ordinary. What does that mean? I think that it could mean any of the following: -An very handsome but rather taciturn man, who is generally kind, but isn't particularly sociable. -A woman who is extremely passionate in her beliefs, and has absolute conviction in her deity, cause, or whatever, whom most people, whether they agree or not, find themselves unable to challenge. -An ugly man who is extremely bold socially and can fill up a room with his presence, having everyone waiting to hear the punchline to his jokes etc. In short, charisma doesn't determine whether or not someone is attractive. Instead, there are many concepts of how someone might be charismatic, and physical attractiveness could be part of that concept or not, depending on the conceptualization of the character.
Mr. VanderMeer 11-02-06, 04:42 AM	I have a suggestion for both very low charisma characters as well as very low intelligence and wisdom characters. In almost every country there is some variations of the 'idols' show on television. Take a good look at the preliminary rounds and you will see plenty of examples.
Lilt 11-02-06, 04:14 PM	I think that charisma means different things for different entities. For example, take 14 charisma as an example: fairly charismatic, but nothing out of the ordinary. What does that mean? I think that it could mean any of the following: -An very handsome but rather taciturn man, who is generally kind, but isn't particularly sociable. -A woman who is extremely passionate in her beliefs, and has absolute conviction in her deity, cause, or whatever, whom most people, whether they agree or not, find themselves unable to challenge. -An ugly man who is extremely bold socially and can fill up a room with his presence, having everyone waiting to hear the punchline to his jokes etc. In short, charisma doesn't determine whether or not someone is attractive. Instead, there are many concepts of how someone might be charismatic, and physical attractiveness could be part of that concept or not, depending on the conceptualization of the character.That still falls into the trap of having charisma determined by attractiveness, however. Take your final example of an ugly man telling jokes. If he puts on a hat of disguise and creates an illusion that he is more attractive, does his charisma increase? Does his comic timing or persuasiveness suddenly deteriorate because it all has to balance? An indirect link based on the self-confidence gained or lost through years of social interaction is about as far as I'd go, and even then I'd allow a charisma 1 character to be as physically attractive as a charisma 23 character.
blackjackg 11-02-06, 06:24 PM	It really is undeniable that appearance is part of charisma. Not the biggest part, by a long shot. It matters much less than personality, amiability and composure. Just as appearance impacts how a person is perceived in the real world, it impacts how a person is perceived in the world of D&D. Obviously, this creates a few wrinkles in the rules, but you'll just have to figure that out on your own. (For example, scars don't negatively impact charisma because, while they mess up your symmetry, they also look cool and give you credibility as an adventurer.) Aaaaaaanyway, seeing as there are so many things that contribute to charisma, it is possible to justify a low charisma in many, many different ways. My only low-charisma character was a wizard-type who was very plain-featured (sometimes forgetable is even more uncharismatic than ugly) but exceptionally stuck-up and insulting. Not a likeable guy.
CoyoteUK 11-04-06, 10:10 AM	Charisma is about putting yourself across to others; in words, body language, dress etc.... Think of it in terms of the ability to get others to do what you want without resorting to touching them or anyone else.... :)
ant1ers 11-06-06, 02:14 PM	Just checked the thread again and saw all of the responses. A couple quick things off the top of my head: The PHB states: Charisma measures a player's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness I feel that with Charisma at the minimum for a PC, all of those come into play. A few specifics: I'm not talking about 'cool' scars. I'm talking about two holes where the nose was, a face that resembles nothing more than melting wax. I'm talking about the type of scars that make hardened adventurers turn away. Since he is an elf, perhaps he was captured by an Eye of Grumsh, and only rescued sometime later? Now for the other stuff - and please note that I'm going off the top of my head here. Perhaps he remembers a time when he wasn't so repulsive in appearance, and can't stand the effect his visage has on those who see it, resulting in a standoffish, shy personality. He wants (or maybe wanted) to try to connect, but but has given up as his experience shows him that 99% of people can't get over the visuals. He does not want to lead, or more likely cannot lead - either due to an insufficient force of personality or due to his leadership being responsible for the events that lead up to his capture. That merely leaves persuasiveness. Why would he be horrible at that? A standoffish/shy personality could explain much of it - he merely never makes an effort to persuade someone to his side of the story, but it feels like there should be more.
Senevri 11-06-06, 06:47 PM	So... ... um. ... You think Beholders are pretty, then? --- That aside, Basically, you could be physically quite attractive, but still have low self-esteem, less-than-wonderful personality and easily forgettable.
ant1ers 11-06-06, 09:35 PM	lol... you got me there. All I can say is Charisma is a perfect example of a stat with too many attributes tied into it. But, seeing as we lucky people get to deal with it the way it is written, my view is that when it comes to the extremes of the stat's range, I think it's an all or non proposition. In other words, you either get everything that's tied into it if you're a 18 charisma, or basically nothing if you're a 3 or below. And hey! Those tentacle eye stalks? Grrrrrr......
JulesCARV 11-07-06, 03:28 PM	Beholders have a concept for why they're charismatic. That concept does not include physical attractiveness. ant1ers' has a concept for why his character is uncharismatic. That concept does include physical repulsiveness. Why is this such a big deal?
blackjackg 11-07-06, 03:40 PM	I don't doubt that beholders are attractive to other beholders. Though their mating process would be so grotesque I don't even want to finish this sen-
Belsaros 11-07-06, 05:11 PM	Beholders? Pretty? I dunno. I've heard legends that the truest beauty of all lies within thier large central eye...