saying the truth... [Archive] - Wizards Community

saying the truth... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cappo
08-12-03, 02:40 AM I need some help from here. What would you say:

Would an Arcane Devotee of Savras always say the truth?

Would it be possible at all for him to be a member of the harpers. If yes, how could this be justified roleplay-wise as a PC? Say nothing at all to other people and speak only to trusted friends and fellow harpers?

How would this guy react, if one of his fellow party members would lie, even if it's for a good cause, as Savras despises telling lies.

I'd like to play him as a PC, but someone always saying the truth could be very counterproductive in a lot of situations. We are playing in a campaign that relies on deception, even if it doesn't rely mostly on it, but we have a female bard that works nearly all the time undercover. As long as I don't know, I think, everything would be fine, but I'm a diviner and sooner or later, I will find out, at least incidentally.

P.S.: Sorry for my poor wording, but I'm no natural speaker.
AmericanAstronaut
08-12-03, 05:12 PM Would an arcane devote of Savras always tell the truth? Well, that is a tricky question. Let's deal with some of the other first.

A Harper? Sure. If I'm not wrong Savras is a god of divination and the Harpers are good-doing "spies" (basicly). Divining and spying are pretty much the same thing. As for him to being able to deal "in the field", so to speak, well ... there is always the very annoying way to speak in riddles and not telling the whole truth. Frankly, telling a little of the truth is often more effective than telling a lie.

You can always see lying as a neccesary evil, like a paladin making war. Or you can expose the lies of others through trickery. Or you make him mute ;) .

Refusal to answer questions are also an easy way to not lie.

Dislike people, read party members, telling lies? Sure ... such a person will someday be caught up in one of his own lies, remind him of this and often tell him colorful stories of people who caught the pointy end of a stick due to it ("the boy who cried wolf"?). Make you partymembers having to silence you when the group is forced into stealth and decite. It may not be good party-wise, but it might be amusing.

Worshipper of Savras allways telling the truth? Well, as much as possible at least. But, there is an exception to all rules!
TinySilverChalice
08-12-03, 11:37 PM Is the character lawful? I'd say a lawful character would be more likely to restrict his speech in that way.

Personal Example: I've a LG monk of Savras. She has sworn as part of her early devotions and learning process to say nothing which could be misunderstood or misinterprated. To say the least this is really hard. She typically speaks very little and usually in the most detailed way possible. She's fine when working with concrete topics (How's the weather now? Are you hurt? Where is so-and-so?), but abstract topics and opinions are difficult (Isn't that the best song you've ever heard? What's your favorite color? Do you love me?). She answers these sorts of things with studders, long pauses, and writing (yeah, she swore not to speak anything possibly untruthful... writing is a little loophole, although she is still as honest as possible but can leave room open for interpratation). She enjoys literature and poetry because of their multipul meanings, but she can only read them to herself and meditate on their many meanings. Her and her boyfriend (a paladin) are adventuring now to save some gold to have Rary's telepathic bond permancied on them so they can really know each other's feelings without her oath restricting their communication.
Cappo
08-13-03, 02:40 AM The Character will be lawful neutral, so I think he'll tell the truth in all situations, if he's speaking at all.

As this character will have really high INT (22) and a decent CHA (16) and a below average Wis (8), I think he'll try to say a lot.
Saying a lot and telling the truth everytime will definately cause serious problems!

It sounds like a really interesting and challenging concept, but maybe a bit too challenging.
What do you think? Any further advice
Cappo
08-14-03, 02:10 AM What do you think could be done to stop this Character from causing too much trouble to his fellow party members. I'm still wondering, if this concept isn't too challenging as a PC.
Sephraem
08-14-03, 08:24 PM The 'truth' is a difficult concept to get at. You can play a character who never speaks a single lie, and yet misleads and misdirects but phrasing each sentence carefully.

An example:

Zann: Are there any more agents of the cult in town?
Evil NPC: I would look closely at Fred if I were you. We brought a doppelganger into town with us.

Aha! And off rush the party to confront the evil doppelganger Fred, who has no idea what a doppelganger is. Meanwhile, the doppelganger continues to make trouble elsewhere. It's surprising how easily misdirection can be truthful.

Or, a character can take the spirit of the law (rather than the letter) and never, ever lie. It can even be disarming when a truthful character is also forthright. Played to the point of being blunt it can be hilariously confrontational. And you can choose to make the character aware, or not aware, of what he or she is doing wrong. Lovely.

It all depends on what sort of honesty you're talking about. I don't think it will be a problem to play, though. I reckon it'll all fall into place during play.
Edymnion
08-14-03, 10:46 PM Read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. The main group of spellcasters in it, the Aes Sedai, all swear oaths to "Speak no word which is not true." Not normal oaths, they're said on a magic item that makes them incapable of breaking an oath sworn on it. They can't lie even if they wanted, not even silly lies like "The sky is purple".

Does this mean they always tell the truth? Well, not really. They all learn to double talk so well you don't know if you've been told a straight answer or if they just sank a half dozen strings into you.

Learn to bend the truth until it screams in agony, just don't break it, and you should be fine.
Dougan Axehammer
08-15-03, 01:40 PM But with a wis 8, you may not be very discreet about the truth. You may be so honest, that it is a fault. Twisting the truth would simply not be in your nature; you wouldn't be aware of how to word your statements so as not to give anything away. But you would be aware enough to know when to say nothing, especially the truth. You might be tight-lipped on such occasions, and would say as little as you could to avoid letting the truth slip.

But truth is also subjective, open to opinion and interpretation. And that is your loophole (though not a very big one). Just because someone tells you something, that doesn't mean it is true. He could be lying to you; but with a wis 8 (and a less than optimum sense motive), you would not be aware of this fact and would perceive the lie as truth. And just because everyone else says the sky is blue, that doesn't mean you must agree with them. (And sometimes the sky isn't blue; sometimes it's grey, sometimes it's black with white polka dots.)

As for Harpers: Khelben Arunsen is a Harper and he is LN. I wouldn't imagine him to be very dishonest.
Cappo
08-16-03, 07:15 AM Many thanks to all the posters for this excellent feedback! I got a lot of ideas to further flesh the rp of this new character!
I'm already sure it will be a lot of fun, playing an incredibly clever guy, who's pretty extroverted, tries to always speak, to always tell the truth, but has to say nothing at all in certain situations. I'm especially looking forward to telling the truth if it's better untold ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cappo 08-12-03, 02:40 AM	I need some help from here. What would you say: Would an Arcane Devotee of Savras always say the truth? Would it be possible at all for him to be a member of the harpers. If yes, how could this be justified roleplay-wise as a PC? Say nothing at all to other people and speak only to trusted friends and fellow harpers? How would this guy react, if one of his fellow party members would lie, even if it's for a good cause, as Savras despises telling lies. I'd like to play him as a PC, but someone always saying the truth could be very counterproductive in a lot of situations. We are playing in a campaign that relies on deception, even if it doesn't rely mostly on it, but we have a female bard that works nearly all the time undercover. As long as I don't know, I think, everything would be fine, but I'm a diviner and sooner or later, I will find out, at least incidentally. P.S.: Sorry for my poor wording, but I'm no natural speaker.
AmericanAstronaut 08-12-03, 05:12 PM	Would an arcane devote of Savras always tell the truth? Well, that is a tricky question. Let's deal with some of the other first. A Harper? Sure. If I'm not wrong Savras is a god of divination and the Harpers are good-doing "spies" (basicly). Divining and spying are pretty much the same thing. As for him to being able to deal "in the field", so to speak, well ... there is always the very annoying way to speak in riddles and not telling the whole truth. Frankly, telling a little of the truth is often more effective than telling a lie. You can always see lying as a neccesary evil, like a paladin making war. Or you can expose the lies of others through trickery. Or you make him mute ;) . Refusal to answer questions are also an easy way to not lie. Dislike people, read party members, telling lies? Sure ... such a person will someday be caught up in one of his own lies, remind him of this and often tell him colorful stories of people who caught the pointy end of a stick due to it ("the boy who cried wolf"?). Make you partymembers having to silence you when the group is forced into stealth and decite. It may not be good party-wise, but it might be amusing. Worshipper of Savras allways telling the truth? Well, as much as possible at least. But, there is an exception to all rules!
TinySilverChalice 08-12-03, 11:37 PM	Is the character lawful? I'd say a lawful character would be more likely to restrict his speech in that way. Personal Example: I've a LG monk of Savras. She has sworn as part of her early devotions and learning process to say nothing which could be misunderstood or misinterprated. To say the least this is really hard. She typically speaks very little and usually in the most detailed way possible. She's fine when working with concrete topics (How's the weather now? Are you hurt? Where is so-and-so?), but abstract topics and opinions are difficult (Isn't that the best song you've ever heard? What's your favorite color? Do you love me?). She answers these sorts of things with studders, long pauses, and writing (yeah, she swore not to speak anything possibly untruthful... writing is a little loophole, although she is still as honest as possible but can leave room open for interpratation). She enjoys literature and poetry because of their multipul meanings, but she can only read them to herself and meditate on their many meanings. Her and her boyfriend (a paladin) are adventuring now to save some gold to have Rary's telepathic bond permancied on them so they can really know each other's feelings without her oath restricting their communication.
Cappo 08-13-03, 02:40 AM	The Character will be lawful neutral, so I think he'll tell the truth in all situations, if he's speaking at all. As this character will have really high INT (22) and a decent CHA (16) and a below average Wis (8), I think he'll try to say a lot. Saying a lot and telling the truth everytime will definately cause serious problems! It sounds like a really interesting and challenging concept, but maybe a bit too challenging. What do you think? Any further advice
Cappo 08-14-03, 02:10 AM	What do you think could be done to stop this Character from causing too much trouble to his fellow party members. I'm still wondering, if this concept isn't too challenging as a PC.
Sephraem 08-14-03, 08:24 PM	The 'truth' is a difficult concept to get at. You can play a character who never speaks a single lie, and yet misleads and misdirects but phrasing each sentence carefully. An example: Zann: Are there any more agents of the cult in town? Evil NPC: I would look closely at Fred if I were you. We brought a doppelganger into town with us. Aha! And off rush the party to confront the evil doppelganger Fred, who has no idea what a doppelganger is. Meanwhile, the doppelganger continues to make trouble elsewhere. It's surprising how easily misdirection can be truthful. Or, a character can take the spirit of the law (rather than the letter) and never, ever lie. It can even be disarming when a truthful character is also forthright. Played to the point of being blunt it can be hilariously confrontational. And you can choose to make the character aware, or not aware, of what he or she is doing wrong. Lovely. It all depends on what sort of honesty you're talking about. I don't think it will be a problem to play, though. I reckon it'll all fall into place during play.
Edymnion 08-14-03, 10:46 PM	Read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. The main group of spellcasters in it, the Aes Sedai, all swear oaths to "Speak no word which is not true." Not normal oaths, they're said on a magic item that makes them incapable of breaking an oath sworn on it. They can't lie even if they wanted, not even silly lies like "The sky is purple". Does this mean they always tell the truth? Well, not really. They all learn to double talk so well you don't know if you've been told a straight answer or if they just sank a half dozen strings into you. Learn to bend the truth until it screams in agony, just don't break it, and you should be fine.
Dougan Axehammer 08-15-03, 01:40 PM	But with a wis 8, you may not be very discreet about the truth. You may be so honest, that it is a fault. Twisting the truth would simply not be in your nature; you wouldn't be aware of how to word your statements so as not to give anything away. But you would be aware enough to know when to say nothing, especially the truth. You might be tight-lipped on such occasions, and would say as little as you could to avoid letting the truth slip. But truth is also subjective, open to opinion and interpretation. And that is your loophole (though not a very big one). Just because someone tells you something, that doesn't mean it is true. He could be lying to you; but with a wis 8 (and a less than optimum sense motive), you would not be aware of this fact and would perceive the lie as truth. And just because everyone else says the sky is blue, that doesn't mean you must agree with them. (And sometimes the sky isn't blue; sometimes it's grey, sometimes it's black with white polka dots.) As for Harpers: Khelben Arunsen is a Harper and he is LN. I wouldn't imagine him to be very dishonest.
Cappo 08-16-03, 07:15 AM	Many thanks to all the posters for this excellent feedback! I got a lot of ideas to further flesh the rp of this new character! I'm already sure it will be a lot of fun, playing an incredibly clever guy, who's pretty extroverted, tries to always speak, to always tell the truth, but has to say nothing at all in certain situations. I'm especially looking forward to telling the truth if it's better untold ;)