Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradox_of_Life 09-13-07, 03:09 PM	This is my time posting for myself on the CharDev boards. Recently, I fleshed out a character on the CharOP boards (thanks again carn, if you read this). Its basically a light themed cleric with VoP and Nimbus of light, so you can see its an Exalted Character. My Group that I DM for chided me for being a lame role player, and truth be told, I am. If you cut me, I leak powergamage. I play my characters as I would play myself. I intensely hate melodrama. So, because I am a democratic DM (which I am starting to regret), my group decided to bring our A game backstories that also explain their personalities for PC's (technically NPCs in my case, but they are both the same for this purpose). So, I decided to right my own for the very first PC I made, and am currently going to use as my avatar. The story behind it is that my character, Sam, that he started off as a commoner, doing commoner...things (read: farming, tilling, and living an ordinary life) till he got to thinking about how a person should live. Arriving at a philosophy of the common good, and further all good through introspective and soul-searching (you have to think about SOMETHING when herding sheep), but no way to express it, he decided that at his 'dare to be great' moment, he would willingly trade his ordinary life to bring goodness to the world. Still, that did not get him anywhere. Then a day in the depths of winer, he went hunting game with the other village folks. They had just taken down a couple mountain goat when they came upon a blizzard, effectively icing them into a valley. This was a common occurrence in that area in the winter, so they were prepared to wait out the couple weeks it would take the ice to thaw. When they passed the icewall, they came upon a starving mountain lion. They were weak from rationing their supplies, and didn't have the strength to fight it and survive. So, Sam came to a decision right there. Either live and be happy by running away with everyone back to the community with the chance that they could all be killed, or distract the lion with his own life so that the other folks could live and be happy, and also support the community. He decided with the ladder. Whispering that they should go back to the village, he lured the lion away with the left-over goat meat from the ice-in. Having captured its attention (and running out of rations) he ran off in the opposite direction. As forture would have it, a druid, coming to experience the ice melting, saw Sam's sacrifice. Using its spontaneus summoning, summoned a rabbit and lured the lion away. Awed at this occurrence, he strolled with the druid toward his village. They walked in almost total silence. The druid was a total enigma to him, because he could never learn anything about it. Suddenly, the druid started talking about the beauties of nature, and how it plays a role as a fulcrum between the eternal war of good vs evil. During this discussion, though it was more of a lecture, the druid surprises Sam by giving him a choice: either go back and join his community, or go with the Druid and become a protecter of nature, and by associate, of balance. Sam, was taken aback, said to the druid to give him a day and a night to think about it. He thought, and he thought, and he thought, till late into the night. He arrived to te conclusion that this was his 'dare to be great' moment. That train of thought led him to his previous resolution to give goodness back to the world. Here, he arrived at a metaphorical crossroads: Was preserving balance the best thing he could do for Humanity (read: all humanoids such as halflings, elves, orcs...ect.)? He decided no, that as much as the world needs stability, goodness lies with people, not the world, and that he could do his best in a city among people, rather than in a forest. So, when the druid came back, Sam refused, and explained to him his reasons. The Druid, seeing that it failed to bring in another acolyte into nature's fold, made an offhand remark that he should look to the gods instead. However, this struck Sam as deep in his core, and the idea grew in his head like a seed for a time. So, he made it back home, to the relief of everyone there and tried to go back to an ordinary life, to support his family. Yet, over the next year, the idea was growing more and more on his mind. Finally, he worked up the nerve to broach the prospect of traveling to one of the worlds famous metropolises, which had an entire section devoted to divine worship, and see if he could find his calling there. His father flatly refused the idea, stating that his place was here in the village, like his father, and his father's father, and so on. His mother was heartbroken that he would even think about leaving his family. However, a golden nerve he never expected to find manifested itself, giving him the conviction to declare to his family that somethings were more important than home, and left with he luggage packed, promising to return when he became the person he knew the world would need. Over the next few weeks, he traveled, and traveled, and traveled, getting into many the adventure. Finally, he made it. Jewel of the earth, Casablanca. Here, he saw many things that he would never have imagined, and would certainly never be found at his out-of-the-way village, at the marketplace that made up the outer layer of the city: things from exotic locales, items certainly made for princes and queens, mystical objects that certainly defied the laws of nature. Awestruck, he did not even notice the people, which were certainly as varied in culture, as the items sold were from each other. Finally coming to his senses, he went through the city trying to find work and a place to live, so he might achieve his dream. He found work at a wagoneers station, unloading caravans into warehouses. This provided meager pay, but it got him a place to live and food to survive. Next, He decided to go to the religious section to see what he could make of it. Yet, as he asked for directions, he came to a revelation: at his job, he noticed that all the wagons, the wagoneers, and bodyguards were a surly bunch, but he thought it was because they had a tough journey from wherever they came from. Yet, he noticed that same attitude in the other residents, that they always seemed to be looking toward their own advantage and wary of others. This was a sentiment he was unused to, having never encountered it in his close-knit community. But the most remarkable thing happened. While this feeling seemed to grow on people that lived there, it did not grow on Sam. It just made him feel sadder at his fellow beings, yet strengthened his desire to bring goodness to the world, feeling that time was running out. It was this that gave him the drive to pursue his vocation with all the more zeal. This often put him as the screwed end of any dealings he had with anyone. He would always give a smile, and say "I understand and forgive your desire to be better than me." This seemed to change those around him to a more charitable side, bringing a light into their eyes as they saw someone who had no care for advantages that they all sought, and his contentment with his life. He felt proud of his accomplishments about giving virtue to the people, even if his wallet didn't. Eventually, he got to the Temple District. At first, it was disorienting, because by the magic of the city, only certain temples would be there based on their day of the week for the masses to pray, though they would all be there on the first of a new month (this isn't important to the story, I just thought it was neat and added it). Here, he found all the major and intermdiate god's temples and doctrines. There were 3 major universal (read: universal means that it is open to all races, and though the racial gods were there too, they don't matter that much in Sam's Story) gods, Alla-Akbar, the god of light and holiness. Flargrinin, the god of the roads (neutral). And Demeter, god of homes (good), which had some representation in his village. Yet, he was astonished to see churches to 2 evil universal gods, Shaitan, god of suffering, and Bhaal, god of murder. Their reason for being allowed to exist is that Shaitan teaches those that suffering gives you strength and power, and Bhaal teaches that all must die, and he helps those deal with it. Sam entered into both of them, and when he left, decided that those places were sources of evil in the world. His first serious stop was with Demeter's Church. Because most places where she is worshipped is by the common people, her temple seemed most comfortable to him. Yet, when he had an indepth conversation with one of the head priests, he found Demeter lacking in his ideal of purging the world of evil, and bringing happiness to the people, as she focused on home and survival. Next, he went to Flargrinin's temple. But that too did not satisfy his need for happiness, as their main concern was for traveling. Last, he went to visit Alla-Akbar's temple. Because of his wide following, the temple could afford to look luxurious. So when he went inside, he was stunned at the opulence of the temple's Sun themes, which seemed to have actual gold. But unlike most people who see gold, it had no hold on Sam. So, he asked to see the head priest. The cleric looked at him, saw his shabby cloths, laughed at his face and told him no. Fortunately, a noble that happened to be there felt uncommonly generous that day, and asked to see the head priest on behalf of Sam. Finally, he got to talk with the head priest, a man arrogant in his purity. So, Sam asked him to tell him about his god. Immediately, Sam formed a dislike for the man, as his description implied that his god was the only one worth mentioning. This offended Sam, as he saw the idea of many gods appealing, giving the world many paths to follow. As he explained this, the priest looked at him like he was some sort of pathetic child who neede his help. For though he was an arrogant SOB, he was still a wise man. After a while, he asked Sam why he was in the city, after hearing where Sam came from. Sam told him it was to find a god so that he might help the world. Shocked, the Priest said that the gods were beings so powerful, we needed them to survive , that for someone to choose a god was disrespectful, that we should thank them for being allowed to exist. So, they got nowhere, and Sam decided to leave. As he turned to go, he saw an girl acolyte holding some papers for the Head priest, and as Sam passed him, the acolyte whispered that she wanted to talk to him, and that he should wait outside. So he met the girl outside, and they took a walk. She apologized to him, saying that the head priest was only their because of his powerful connections, and that he was not a true representative of Alla-Akbar. Seeing the puzzled look on his face, she explained that the temple needed funding, and he was powerful enough to get it, but as powerful as he was, he could not accomplish in a month of praying what many of them could do in a day, such as healing. She asked him to reconsider leaving, and to come back and become a cleric like the rest of them. But Sam declined, saying that Good tainted by evil was almost as bad as Evil itself. So he left the city, feeling dejected because he failed to find his path. So he left, leaving nothing behind a memory and a few more good-hearted souls. On his travels back, He found an old starving lion, half dead on the road. Thinking back to the valley, he had the notion to leave it there. But he also thought that every life should be cherished, no matter its source. Having caught a couple of hares to skin and eat later, he decided to give them to the lion. Yet even through his ideals, as he tossed the rabbits to the lion, he thought himself a fool, as the lion would come after him next. Yet he continued to feed the lion. Finally, once he ran out of food, the lion suddenly got up and stalked toward him. Now, Sam thought ruefully that he deserved to die for doing something so foolish. Yet as the lion walked toward him, it began to change, glowing brighter like the sun and looking anthropomorphic. When the glow faded, he found himself in the most awestruck and dazed mentality in his life. For infront of him was an almost exact duplicate of a mural he saw at the temple: A swarthy man wearing dazzlingly bright robes and a turban, which a golden sun pinned to its front, a being that gave off wisdom, power and compassion the way the sun gives life and warmth; Alla-Akbar. Immediately, he fell to the floor groveling and bowing. Alla-Akbar laughed a deep, cheerful laugh that seemed to make all the aches and pains Sam didn't notice heal and fade away. Alla-Akbar said that there was no need for that, as they were both equals here. Sam's job dropped in awe, thinking to himself that it was logically impossible for him to be worth anything of a god. Sam stammered and asked if he was a god too, to make them equal. Alla-Akbar stood silent for a moment and then roared with laughter, and everything seemed right in the world. He said that no, he wasn't a god, but they were both a part of this world, which gave them the kinship. They stared for a moment in silence at each other, and Sam found that the god seemed to be expecting something from Sam, so he asked something that he found deep in his heart, which both made him happy and sad at the same time. Sam asked if the god came to take him away to be a cleric for him. Alla-Akbar said to him, if it was really what he wanted, but he doubted that it. Sam said that he had doubt, that it came from the high priest of his church. The god gave him a disbeliving stare. Sam did not undertstand that, and thought about it some more. He realized that he found something wrong with the idea of gods, thinking them to be just awesomely powerful people. As soon as he said it, he regretted it, thinking that he might offend the god. But he didn't. The god explained that yes, gods were merrely powerful people, that represent ideals of the world. But the god also said he was a teacher, showing his followers how to live and bring his ideals to the world. Then, the god asked him a question: If Sam was willing to abide by the path that Alla-Akbar expected of his followers. Sam said no. So, Alla-Akbar gave him a key that had no teeth and said that it would unlock the door to everything he wanted if he sculpted it the right way. Yet, Sam said that bringing happiness is all I want, and dropped the key. As it fell, it emitted a ruby light, which then transformed it into a rose that vanished upon hitting the ground. Alla-Akbar smiled and told him that Sam was in tune with the very idea of goodness and had no need for Alla-Akbar. Sam asked if he offended the god. Alla-Akbar said though he never knew all of Alla-Akbar's dogma, he had the god's goal more firmly than did his followers. Sam was confused. So, the god explained that, unlike the other gods, he wished that the people would achieve such an exalted state that they no longer needed him. As Alla-Akbar began to fade away, Sam thanked the god for showing him the path, but was wondering how he should walk it. Alla-Akbar pondered this for a moment and said that for their to be a utopia in the world, evil from beyond the world must be quelled for people to be pure. Sam thanked the god and watched as Alla-Akbar faded away, like a setting sun. Thats how Sam became a cleric and chose Good and Sun domains. He went with Vow of Poverty because he thought that possessiveness was a major tool of evil, and his life should be an example. The next part is him adventuring, which the only significant parts are that he became a powerful force of good, and how he met his wife, which was in a later session, which I will paraphrase. First, Sam is possessed by a Demon who wanted to corrupt him. Under the demonic influence, he murdered a child of a powerful sorceress. At one point, he made enough saves to force the demon out. But the demon had prevented him from knowing what he did, so the party was confused why the sorceress kept trying to kill them. Managing to capture the demon, and force it to confess what it did, she killed it permanently and retreated into her tower for isolation because of her son. After Sam reached level 20, he went back to confort her because he conscious was telling him he should. Thats how he met his wife, and they had a child, a baby girl. While he was out on his journey to easy people's suffering in the world, the god of suffering, Shaitan, and the god of murder, Bhaal, decided to have revenge on Sam for all the evil in the world he destroyed. So, combining their might, they send the most powerful devil to earth to take his wife and daughter. But due to the sorceresses might, she would not be subdued, and it killed her and her daughter. Alas was Sam's heart and soul broken to see a defiled tower and the corpses of his family in ruin. Triggered by his entrence, the devil laid a spell on the corpse of the child so that it would animate and laugh at Sam for his family's death. With his powers, he easy destroyed her. Yet the humble, loving, Good Sam was dead, along with his family. What was left was an angry, vengeful Sam whose wrath had never seen the light of day. Because he had never known many angry emotions his entire life, that made the surge of vengeance all the more powerful. After much Commune spells, he acertained that the devil in question was none other than Asmodeus, and that he lived at the bottom of hell, where no one with an ounce of good may go. So, he made a plan to himself. He recalled traveling to a plane of time, in which there was a pool where someone can rewrite their destiny, to become a different person. He would go to the tops of the Heavens, and leave his soul there, so that it might not interfere with his plans of punishment. Using his spells, he arrived at the tops of heavens, in which no mortal may go. Yet his reputation as the holiest mortal on earth allowed him entry, and he saw the most incredible things that, had it been before his family was lost, would have made his life complete. Yet his desire for vengence overcame his piety and attempted to tear his soul out. But before he could accomplish it, Alla-Akbar himself appeared. He asked Sam why he must have vengeance. Sam replied, that it is all that remained of him. Sam then asked the god for a favor. The god replied that It could not directly get involved with the lower planes, due to a pact sealed at the down of time. Sam said he understood, that what he asked was within the bounds of Alla-Akbar's power. That should Sam Succeed at destroying he devil, that he should die. The god agreed, and bestowed upon him his blessing/curse. So, Sam left his soul in heaven, and went into the storm of time to find the pool of destiny. There, he made his last resolve and jumped into the pool. As all that was formally shredded into pieces, he began to reform. Gone was the goodness, the happiness, the wisdom. What emerged from that Pool was a being of such evilness that would have scared even mindless undead away. He was now a creature whose sole talent was dealing death. And its only desire now was to kill that devil, and cause it as much pain as it was caused. So, Sam went into the world, and began stealing all the worlds greatest artifacts in which to battle the devil. So he went to hell. Yet to pass each circle, he must come to terms with each sin. The original Sam thought ahead, and implanted a love for each sin on an intrinsic level. The circles were designed to keep those who had those sins out of the inner circles. Yet as Sam was now a being of almost pure evil, the circles could not hold him back. As he got closer, even asmodeus sensed the evil that rivaled his own. Disguising himself in a black robe with the one and only GRIM SCYTHE (a weapon that was said could kill anything from an insect, to a god), he looked like the avatar of Bhaal, which was his design. Yet as he got close to sticking distance, the devil scensed the real him and attacked. In a battle of epic Proportions, Sam, Mortally wounded stuck down the devil and severed its life cord. As he did, his soul appreared to him. And that unquentiable seed of Sam's holiness surged forth and welcomed his death. So far, the only part to happen to Sam to this date is that he is still adventuring with the party, but this is his intended storyline. Tell me what you guys think, and if I need to buff it up some more.
ArgulFraster 09-13-07, 09:29 PM	Interesting, but I've got to say that a story in D&D is something that evolves-to write it beforehand is to defeat the purpose of D&D-when DMs do it, it's called Nerfing. As a story, it's pretty interesting. As a gameplan...well, it has no point. You can suggest it to your DM, but whether he uses it or not is up to him. Ultimately, it's interesting, but I must object to it.
Paradox_of_Life 09-13-07, 09:36 PM	Haha, I guess I didn't mention that I AM the dm, and this is the story for my favorite NPC thats going to be with the party for the Next 10 levels. Also, I want critique as to if it is good story (1-10 10 being the best) so I can be aware of my story-telling skills to....to....PWN my players assumptions that I am pure powergamer (which I admit I might be).
ZapRowsdower 09-13-07, 10:15 PM	I'm going to be a little harsh! Rated 2 because it's way too long and preachy. The point of D&D (at least how I see it) is to get some friends together and work together to make a cool story about your characters, and use mechanical rules to see what happens.The DM provides the stage, the challenges and the secondary actors and the different players decide how they're going to react in different situations. How are you going to explain your character to your friends? Are you going to hand them a couple pages of backstory for your own character and say "start reading!" Ugh. Doesn't sound like much fun to me. Is this NPC is going to accompany the characters on their quests? It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. 1. The Adventuring party is supposed to be somewhat a group of equals. 2. Yet you, the DM are directly controlling one of them and refer to him as your "avatar"? Ugh. 2. "Yet his reputation as the holiest mortal on earth"? Ha ha ha. Think of it this way. How would you like to play a game when one of the player has "cheat codes" that let him be more important than any other character, and have mostly correct ideas most of the time. It wouldn't be very much fun if you weren't that character. Anyway, enough about what I think about DM-PCs --- TONS of interesting stuff has happened to your character "off stage.", and D&D is primarily about characters interacting in real time about issues that theyve never seen before. If the group encounters a demon, it's supposed to be a big deal that they've never encountered before, not like the thing Sam faced alone a long time ago. You have in game terms mixed in with your backstory, which I think is a no-no. A character doesn't "make his save", he "breaks through the enchantment" or "throws off the possession". Likewise, a character doesn't know what "feats" he's getting, because feats are totally abstract. A character might learn to use his strength effectively in combat (power attack) or learn to cast spells in a certain way (quicken spell or something), but he never just "decides to learn a feat",
Paradox_of_Life 09-13-07, 11:03 PM	1. The Adventuring party is supposed to be somewhat a group of equals. 2. Yet you, the DM are directly controlling one of them and refer to him as your "avatar"? Ugh. 2. "Yet his reputation as the holiest mortal on earth"? Ha ha ha. Thanks for the Comments! I Appreciate your feedback. 1. The Adventuring party is supposed to be somewhat a group of equals. 2. Yet you, the DM are directly controlling one of them and refer to him as your "avatar"? Ugh. 2. "Yet his reputation as the holiest mortal on earth"? Ha ha ha. 1. Well, he is their equal, considering that at the moment, he's only level 10, an hasn't become the holiest man in the world yet. Still just learning about the world, exploring (read: gaining XP) and developing. 2. Of course he is my avatar. As a DM, I am basically the OverGod, and it is nice to have a connection to my players in which we are all equals, as you mentioned in point 1. And if you looked at his character build, you would see his only great power is versus fiends and undead, making him sub-optimized, which compared to the rest of the party, is a good thing, because I don't want him stealing the show, just acting as the 'keep-everyone-alive' machine. Think of it this way. How would you like to play a game when one of the player has "cheat codes" that let him be more important than any other character, and have mostly correct ideas most of the time. It wouldn't be very much fun if you weren't that character. Now, if I had cheat codes, every bit of his armor would be great artifact level or higher. As he stands, he has 1000gp (estimated) in equipment than the rest of the party. His main function, outside of healing and evil bashing, is a story propeller. Maybe not to you, but being on a quest to rid the world of evil is a good side-story to the main one I have cooking. The point of D&D (at least how I see it) is to get some friends together and work together to make a cool story about your characters, and use mechanical rules to see what happens.The DM provides the stage, the challenges and the secondary actors and the different players decide how they're going to react in different situations. How are you going to explain your character to your friends? Are you going to hand them a couple pages of backstory for your own character and say "start reading!" Ugh. Doesn't sound like much fun to me. In case I did not make that clear, everyone on the table will be bringing their characters backstories. I also encouraged them to submit any goals they want their character to achieve, though only a few will may be implemented, so that when the campaign is over, they can look back and think appreciate this campaign. I and another player will be the only one reading them, and I'm sure that some will be spoken orally. Sure, this is a tangent from actual play time, but fun is fun, right? I think this is a good exercise (though it was not my idea at all, and I wasn't particularly thrilled about it) in DM-Player communiction, which is besides the point of this Thread. Did you expect me to just say to my player 'hey guys, this is exactly what you have to look forward to my character, so you can see any plot-twists ahead and thus know my character's every move?' You have in game terms mixed in with your backstory, which I think is a no-no. A character doesn't "make his save", he "breaks through the enchantment" or "throws off the possession". Likewise, a character doesn't know what "feats" he's getting, because feats are totally abstract. A character might learn to use his strength effectively in combat (power attack) or learn to cast spells in a certain way (quicken spell or something), but he never just "decides to learn a feat", So, you object to me using mechanical terms? Because "breaking an enchantment" IS making a save, or casting a spell with that effect in mind. Heck, the entire point of' 'Sam' is just another hook in which to engage my players. All I look at when I see my players' characters HD and fodder for the prismatic dragon, Snappy McCrunchCrunch TONS of interesting stuff has happened to your character "off stage.", and D&D is primarily about characters interacting in real time about issues that theyve never seen before. If the group encounters a demon, it's supposed to be a big deal that they've never encountered before, not like the thing Sam faced alone a long time ago. AH! Now you broach the subject of intent. Of course, I shouldn't have expected you to see that by killing the Devil, 'off-stage,' that my PC's would have to clean up the ramifications of that. You have helped me realize that instead of making this character's development into just an ongoing side-quest, that I can instead turn the entire campaign around from a direction they would not expect. Rated 2 because it's way too long and preachy. HAHA, it probably was too long. But in my defense, I caught myself having more fun than I thought I would. The whole 'preachy' thing comes into play because 'Good' and 'Evil' are not just some abstract forces in the universe. I find 'good' to be a concept that is the goal of all humanoid races (with exceptions) while evil is the road blocks and detours that halt or even push it back. Thanks for the feedback, and I hope others will comment too!!:D
Fithero 09-13-07, 11:27 PM	His main function, outside of healing and evil bashing, is a story propeller. You've got an npc doing that? Why not let the pc's lead the direction of the adventure? I agree that npc's should be interesting characters in their own right, complex backgrounds and deep personalities and the like. But it reads like this guy will be at centre stage... which kinda detracts from the pc's. That sorta sucks cos he'll end up talking to other npc's.... which means youll be sitting there talking to yourself while your mates sit there staring at you, bored :(
Paradox_of_Life 09-14-07, 12:46 AM	You've got an npc doing that? Why not let the pc's lead the direction of the adventure? I agree that npc's should be interesting characters in their own right, complex backgrounds and deep personalities and the like. But it reads like this guy will be at centre stage... which kinda detracts from the pc's. That sorta sucks cos he'll end up talking to other npc's.... which means youll be sitting there talking to yourself while your mates sit there staring at you, bored :( LIKE I SAID, SIDE QUESTS!!! I never allow him to steal the spotlight, except when fighting undead, and even managed to have him die a few times, just so my PC's could go it alone for a dungeon crawl. Yet your going off track, its about the story, not the reason behind it.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-14-07, 01:14 AM	Your rating goes a little higher with me but not a whole lot at a 3 1/2. It ran a little long and I'm guessing that english is a second language for you, though you speak (write) it quite well if that is the case. I agree you have way too much focus on a single character. You control, as DM; the devil, the the gods, the clergy, the villians, the monsters, the insignificant npcs, etc. Yet you have chosen to focus the whole of the story around a single character and not even one of the player's. Your character has already been told by a god he is better than most of the god's followers? No that just doesn't work within the scope of a d&d game. See the PCs are supposed to be the heros. They're supposed to set goals for themselves while you forge a story around them. Its easy to let a single character you love dominate and you've fallen into that poisen-spike lined pit trap. You have no real mention even of the PCs. Realistically the mechanics of the game call for you to take leadership and declare the pcs your followers. Your wife would probably be the cohort. On to the story itself. I'm going to start with the failing before I move on to your strong points. I do this mostly because I like to end on a positive note. Your character is a magically enhanced saint from way too early on. He is convincing people to take up a better life just by letting them take advantage of him? UH-UN! "Saints draw charlatans quicker than fools" as an old pc of mine would have said. You should have been killed and left in a ditch with the life you led; especially in a city that lets churchs of 2 evil gods stand. Even if you survived long enough to anger the local clergy one of the evil gods' clerics would have made a lesson of you. Yeah your character managed to avoid the pitfall of organized religion, only to go on drink from the poisonous well of hubris. He doesn't want anything except to do good and make the world a better place? Has he ever considered the ramifications of that statement? Has he considered how much harm he would do if only to those who are evil? He doesn't even seem to want to do good as much as to harm evil. He doesn't preach nor allow for others to follow his example as he simply moves about to much. He'd do more good on a mountainside dispensing wisdom to those who seek it than travelling about playing at "better than you" wherever he finds other who don't meet his standards. I think what you have is no aspiring saint but rather a paladin who stands constantly on the brink of falling. Someone who is good more for not ever having known evil than for having chosen to live a life dedicated to aiding others. Now for your strong points. Your story is fairly well told. You have a clear plot and while the world doesn't always react to him realistically you have a fairly solid case of a character who is sure of his ideals but not of himself. Always an interesting personality for a pc (you'll find many on this board who are unfond of DM-PCs) and usually it will do well for a major npc. You're story could do quite nicely if your would-be saint were instead a villian in the making. If it were up to the party to stop him as his soulless self starting wracking up the evil points it needed to reach hell's lowest layer. . . . . . Mother is a teacher, Uncle was a teacher, 2 Aunts are teachers, Grandfather was a teacher... Must resist... Desire to... Correct... grammar and spelling!
Paradox_of_Life 09-14-07, 01:19 PM	Thanks for the feedback :) Here are my responses: I agree you have way too much focus on a single character. You control, as DM; the devil, the the gods, the clergy, the villians, the monsters, the insignificant npcs, etc. Yet you have chosen to focus the whole of the story around a single character and not even one of the player's. Your character has already been told by a god he is better than most of the god's followers? No that just doesn't work within the scope of a d&d game. See the PCs are supposed to be the heros. They're supposed to set goals for themselves while you forge a story around them. Its easy to let a single character you love dominate and you've fallen into that poisen-spike lined pit trap. You have no real mention even of the PCs. Realistically the mechanics of the game call for you to take leadership and declare the pcs your followers. Your wife would probably be the cohort. No offense, but you don't understand that this idea is a side quest, in which to give my PC's options in what the can do. Think of it as and essay question versus a multiple choice question With an essay answer, you have creative control over what you do, which is basically what my pcs do. You say I essentially control everything. You're right, I do. Yet it isn't hard, as it must be for you, to use differential thinking. It is what people who test pvp (read: chess, wrestling, ect...) ideas and maneuvers against themselves, effectively having two state of minds. And if you did not read above, which I assume you did not, I told that Sam does not do anything special, outside of undead slaying and healing. My goal was to turn an unremarkable character into a remarkable one. Having Sam as part of the group of 5 others allows me to gain an empathy (ranger varient: Player Empathy???:D ) of how my players feel during an encounter. The reason I brought out Sam in the first place was to take up the healer role, which no one wanted to do. Sam is the multiple choice answer. All his plans are laid out, and the party can use Sam as a means of propelling the story forward without taking too much effort. However, none of this story is set in stone, considering that that he is still adventuring. See the PCs are supposed to be the heros. They're supposed to set goals for themselves while you forge a story around them. Its easy to let a single character you love dominate and you've fallen into that poisen-spike lined pit trap. You have no real mention even of the PCs. Realistically the mechanics of the game call for you to take leadership and declare the pcs your followers. Your wife would probably be the cohort. Ah, now I see your faulty assumption. You assume that most of this story happens with the PC's. It does not. As I didn't mention them, I do not know where you came to that conclusion. I think I made it clear in context, that almost all that happens to Sam happens before he is with the PC's and After he is done with them, assuming he survives. Heck, it is just a story, one that can be changed in an instant. This is just origins + plans, not that it matters, since if you were critiquing this story, that would not have played a factor in your decision. I'm sorry if this is a little ahead of you, as English might also not be your first language either. 'Magically enhanced Saint.' Hmm...I..I just do not know what to make of that. VOP doesn't come later into the build, so he's just a cleric of generic good with the sun and good domains. On to the story itself. I'm going to start with the failing before I move on to your strong points. I do this mostly because I like to end on a positive note. Your character is a magically enhanced saint from way too early on. He is convincing people to take up a better life just by letting them take advantage of him? UH-UN! "Saints draw charlatans quicker than fools" as an old pc of mine would have said. You should have been killed and left in a ditch with the life you led; especially in a city that lets churchs of 2 evil gods stand. For any giant city to survive and prosper, there must be a unifying factor: Law. Thats why he wasn't just murdered in the street and left in a ditch. And why would he be murdered? In fact, that would make him a mark for dealing, since he would be an easy customer or dupe. This isn't a world where psychopaths run amok, killing those without protection. And as I made clear, He grew up in poor village making him an unlikely mark for robbery, because who wants to rob a guy who wears worse cloths than you? I thought this was simple common sense, but feel free to correct me. Even if you survived long enough to anger the local clergy one of the evil gods' clerics would have made a lesson of you. Yeah your character managed to avoid the pitfall of organized religion, only to go on drink from the poisonous well of hubris. Again, why would would priests of evil gods, who are already not welcome as most evil gods are, violate the laws of that place and worsen their standing with possible after effects, over a simple village folk? And please tell me were you got hubris from, because if that is a sentiment you get, I need to change the story then. He doesn't want anything except to do good and make the world a better place? Has he ever considered the ramifications of that statement? Has he considered how much harm he would do if only to those who are evil? He doesn't even seem to want to do good as much as to harm evil. Obviously not, as one of his major strengths and flaws is his Naive nature. This is one of the central themes to the character. He doesn't even seem to want to do good as much as to harm evil. This bears special attention, if I did not clearly explain what evil he wants to 'harm.' I made mention that it was evil of a supernatural origin that Sam wanted to fight (hence the focus on undead slaying). How can you accuse a the ordinary person of being evil? Take a murderer, for example. Is this being a source of evil, or only one who commits evil? I think we can agree that murder is inherently evil. So, say this common guy murders his next door neighbor. Did he do it for pleasure? Most likely not, that there was a reason that illicited the response from him. Almost any homicidal person in the world has a reason. Maybe the killer had a bad day and needed to act out. Maybe he hated his target. Any reason can be tracked back to environmental conditions. However, that is not the case of supernatural evil. Supernatural evil, and correct me if I am wrong, which I'm not, is a source of evil whose reason for committing evil is that evil is intrinsically valuable to it. So I think it is easy to see that supernatural evil is a source of all evil, whether this is true or not. This sentiment is also shown in the Eberron Campaign setting, In which one of the goals of the Church of the Silver flame was stamping out supernatural evil. He doesn't preach nor allow for others to follow his example as he simply moves about to much. He'd do more good on a mountainside dispensing wisdom to those who seek it than travelling about playing at "better than you" wherever he finds other who don't meet his standards. I think what you have is no aspiring saint but rather a paladin who stands constantly on the brink of falling. Someone who is good more for not ever having known evil than for having chosen to live a life dedicated to aiding others. Well, there are two reasons as to why he does not preach. He places much value on a person's right to choose their own path, so why would he go around swaying other people to join his? \ I gave him little to know speaking skills, as I did not want the party to rely on him for anything other than healing and anti-undead(ery???) I was planning on giving him the whole, 'come and find me for my sacred knowledge' cliche. But for this story, I decided to make him fall, as it was much more fun to write. As to his being better than everyone else who doesn't meet his standards, when have I portrayed him at judging other people being worth less than himself? In fact, when has he forced his beliefs on anyone? Also, He did fall at the end. You're story could do quite nicely if your would-be saint were instead a villian in the making. If it were up to the party to stop him as his soulless self starting wracking up the evil points it needed to reach hell's lowest layer. How DARE you!! Here I was, thinking I had a good ending, and blam, you shoot it down with this even better idea for my PCs. Thanks a lot for scrapping any other idea I could end with him, as this would be too fun to play. You are a horrible person :sarcasm: Thanks for the feedback, and these questions really help me flesh out the details of this story. Remember other posters, critique ONLY the story, not how the other players would like it, or if a DM should waste their time on it. Just pretend it is like fanfiction, and it will go all the smoother for us. :) I appreciate your time and consideration. PS, Though I don't like to speak in internet, I must say this... . . . Mother is a teacher, Uncle was a teacher, 2 Aunts are teachers, Grandfather was a teacher... Must resist... Desire to... Correct... grammar and spelling! WTFBBQ?
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-15-07, 01:04 AM	No offense, but you don't understand that this idea is a side quest, in which to give my PC's options in what the can do. Think of it as and essay question versus a multiple choice question With an essay answer, you have creative control over what you do, which is basically what my pcs do. That's one helluva side quest. Maybe the story would seem a little less over focused on your character if it was within the context of the game. Maybe it would seem less so if you didn't have the future written around him as well. As is the way you have things written doesn't leave room for pc choices. If you're willing to scrap the future you have written in favor of a story the pc's prefer then you aren't railroading nearly so much as the story makes it seem you are. If most of this is happening in the background while the pcs are adventuring then it's fine, though I would consider having the PCs turn in periodic reports on what their characters are doing during the in-game downtime as well. You say I essentially control everything. You're right, I do. Yet it isn't hard, as it must be for you, to use differential thinking. It is what people who test pvp (read: chess, wrestling, ect...) ideas and maneuvers against themselves, effectively having two state of minds. And if you did not read above, which I assume you did not, I told that Sam does not do anything special, outside of undead slaying and healing. My goal was to turn an unremarkable character into a remarkable one. Having Sam as part of the group of 5 others allows me to gain an empathy (ranger varient: Player Empathy???:D ) of how my players feel during an encounter. The reason I brought out Sam in the first place was to take up the healer role, which no one wanted to do. You said Sam doesn't do anything special, outside of undead slaying and healing. You then went on to tell us about his leaving people who took advantage of him better off. You told us about his becoming a remarkably powerful holy man. You told us about gods telling him he was a better man than any of their followers. All this may not have happened yet but it is still the basis of the story as things sit; using all knowledge of the story I have been given. Sam is extraordinary in many ways or at the very least your intent seems (seemed?) to be to make him so. Sam is the multiple choice answer. All his plans are laid out, and the party can use Sam as a means of propelling the story forward without taking too much effort. However, none of this story is set in stone, considering that that he is still adventuring. I don't know you're group so I won't say this is a bad thing. It depends highly on how much they want to rely on being part of Sam's story vs how much they want to be making one of their own. I know my groups have often been willing to follow their patrons orders without really questioning but when I play I am always looking to make my own character a central figure. I am a lime-light hog and not afraid to admit it. If any NPC wants to make me part of his story he quckly finds that I am going to take at least an equal part of the stage time and if he's not a hugely forceful personality he'll be part of mine. My point had really been that your multiple choice question seems like you give choice of A) Sam's story in this direction, B) Sam's story in that direction, or C) Sam's story with an unexpected twist. That, again, may simply be a matter of how you write his future or of the lack of any realy info on the world, campaign, or other characters. I may simply have forgotten to take into account that with only one story the others will inevitably feel weaker, if only because i haven't heard them yet. Ah, now I see your faulty assumption. You assume that most of this story happens with the PC's. It does not. As I didn't mention them, I do not know where you came to that conclusion. I think I made it clear in context, that almost all that happens to Sam happens before he is with the PC's and After he is done with them, assuming he survives. Heck, it is just a story, one that can be changed in an instant. This is just origins + plans, not that it matters, since if you were critiquing this story, that would not have played a factor in your decision. I'm sorry if this is a little ahead of you, as English might also not be your first language either. The conclusion comes from that same old fact. Much of the story is supposed to be set in his future. It was clear the parts which happen before the pcs meet but missed that much of the story happened after he left them. It seemed like both character and campaign story not like just character. 'Magically enhanced Saint.' Hmm...I..I just do not know what to make of that. VOP doesn't come later into the build, so he's just a cleric of generic good with the sun and good domains. I am suggesting that the story seems to have him changing people with his meer presence. He lets others take advantage of him and they decide to become better. He effectively insults the high priest of the temple of light and goodness and a young priestess risk unknown punishment to try and convince him not all are like that priest. People seem to be willing to make all sorts of exceptions for him just because of how good he is. Or maybe in your world people are just generally more caring and accepting of people who are in a worse financial or social position than themselves? For any giant city to survive and prosper, there must be a unifying factor: Law. Thats why he wasn't just murdered in the street and left in a ditch. And why would he be murdered? In fact, that would make him a mark for dealing, since he would be an easy customer or dupe. This isn't a world where psychopaths run amok, killing those without protection. And as I made clear, He grew up in poor village making him an unlikely mark for robbery, because who wants to rob a guy who wears worse cloths than you? I thought this was simple common sense, but feel free to correct me. Not a world where psycho's run amok? Strange for d&d, since in many there seem to be cultist in every sewer.:P Even so have you never heard of bums being beaten in the real world. They do noone any harm yet are targets for all the violence and anger people would never take out on a person closer to society's heart. No you have created a character who is both on the fringe of society and who everyone around seems very aware of. Perhaps I am more of a cynic then I would like to believe but that makes him a great target for random violence to me. Remember that in a city of 100,000 it may take only 10 to form a huge force of destruction. A few troublemakers out looking for kicks, a drunk whose wife locked him out of his home, a priest of a dark diety who thinks he can get away with it because this man has no real connections in the city and he does, a dark-hearted noble who does it simply to prove he can get away with it; all are more than capable of bringing him harm. Again, why would would priests of evil gods, who are already not welcome as most evil gods are, violate the laws of that place and worsen their standing with possible after effects, over a simple village folk? And please tell me were you got hubris from, because if that is a sentiment you get, I need to change the story then. Suffering brings power. The basic tenet of one of your two major churches. Presumably causing suffering in others brings more than suffering of yourself. All must die. They're called fanatics. You mean to tell me these 2 churches make up 2/3 of the major churches in the city and you don't have any even one zealot. I think I've already explained why I think you're character would make a perfect target for them. This bears special attention, if I did not clearly explain what evil he wants to 'harm.' I made mention that it was evil of a supernatural origin that Sam wanted to fight (hence the focus on undead slaying). How can you accuse a the ordinary person of being evil? Take a murderer, for example. Is this being a source of evil, or only one who commits evil? I think we can agree that murder is inherently evil. So, say this common guy murders his next door neighbor. Did he do it for pleasure? Most likely not, that there was a reason that illicited the response from him. Almost any homicidal person in the world has a reason. Maybe the killer had a bad day and needed to act out. Maybe he hated his target. Any reason can be tracked back to environmental conditions. However, that is not the case of supernatural evil. Supernatural evil, and correct me if I am wrong, which I'm not, is a source of evil whose reason for committing evil is that evil is intrinsically valuable to it. So I think it is easy to see that supernatural evil is a source of all evil, whether this is true or not. This sentiment is also shown in the Eberron Campaign setting, In which one of the goals of the Church of the Silver flame was stamping out supernatural evil. Well I'm not so certain I would use Ebberron as my example but I'll give you your ideas on supernatural evil. My concern then becomes where in the world did this farmer come to decide that supernatural evil was a problem? Where did he ever come into contact with such? And the idea that it is the only evil that good needs stand against is just ridiculous. It makes the character seem deluded to stand against supernatural evil and stand by against more mundane forms. As to his being better than everyone else who doesn't meet his standards, when have I portrayed him at judging other people being worth less than himself? In fact, when has he forced his beliefs on anyone? Also, He did fall at the end. One doesn't need to force their beliefs on others or preach in order to have a "better than though" attitude. I didn't do a good job of explaining myself though. What I was really trying to comment on was the passivity with which he treats views that he left home for. The contradiction between sure-of-his-ideals future saint and uncertain-in-himself-farmer-without-a-plan (a good concept but it can be hard to reconcile within the story at times). This also goes to the "magical saint" effect I mentioned. He seems to make the world better without actively working to do so. How DARE you!! Here I was, thinking I had a good ending, and blam, you shoot it down with this even better idea for my PCs. Thanks a lot for scrapping any other idea I could end with him, as this would be too fun to play. You are a horrible person :sarcasm: :schemes: :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :schemes: Thanks for the feedback, and these questions really help me flesh out the details of this story. Remember other posters, critique ONLY the story, not how the other players would like it, or if a DM should waste their time on it. Just pretend it is like fanfiction, and it will go all the smoother for us. :) I appreciate your time and consideration. You're right about the fact that I tended to comment on the game effect of the story as well as the story itself. I humbly appollagize for this. PS, Though I don't like to speak in internet, I must say this... WTFBBQ? A joke. Too many close blood relatives would have beaten me over the head for the number of spelling and grammer errors both in my responses and which I let you get away with. I post while at work and had to resist the urge to go back and correct each one.
Paradox_of_Life 09-15-07, 06:31 AM	You're right about the fact that I tended to comment on the game effect of the story as well as the story itself. I humbly appollagize for this. A joke. Too many close blood relatives would have beaten me over the head for the number of spelling and grammer errors both in my responses and which I let you get away with. I post while at work and had to resist the urge to go back and correct each one. That's one helluva side quest. Maybe the story would seem a little less over focused on your character if it was within the context of the game. Maybe it would seem less so if you didn't have the future written around him as well. As is the way you have things written doesn't leave room for pc choices. If you're willing to scrap the future you have written in favor of a story the pc's prefer then you aren't railroading nearly so much as the story makes it seem you are. If most of this is happening in the background while the pcs are adventuring then it's fine, though I would consider having the PCs turn in periodic reports on what their characters are doing during the in-game downtime as well. I hate to quote myself, but... This is my time posting for myself on the CharDev boards. Recently, I fleshed out a character on the CharOP boards (thanks again carn, if you read this). Its basically a light themed cleric with VoP and Nimbus of light, so you can see its an Exalted Character. My Group that I DM for chided me for being a lame role player, and truth be told, I am. If you cut me, I leak powergamage. I play my characters as I would play myself. I intensely hate melodrama. So, because I am a democratic DM (which I am starting to regret), my group decided to bring our A game backstories that also explain their personalities for PC's (technically NPCs in my case, but they are both the same for this purpose). So, I decided to right my own for the very first PC I made, and am currently going to use as my avatar. See, as of right now, he is just a generic clerk. This story was mainly a thought exercise, one that I may have been too rash to say that it is immediately implementable. Heck, Sam could just stay 'that idiot savant we picked up on the side of the road who only knows how to heal and kill undead things.' If I decide to use the story, my players wont see it till the end of the campaign. If I don't, which was was my original intention which changed over the writing of the story (believe me when I say that it STARTLED me how much I enjoyed writing that), then when the next PC dies, I will brow-beat him/her into going into a healer and Sam will have a mysterious accident (one I've always wanted to try is having someone trip into a portable hold and getting thrown to the bottom of the sea). You said Sam doesn't do anything special, outside of undead slaying and healing. You then went on to tell us about his leaving people who took advantage of him better off. You told us about his becoming a remarkably powerful holy man. You told us about gods telling him he was a better man than any of their followers. All this may not have happened yet but it is still the basis of the story as things sit; using all knowledge of the story I have been given. Sam is extraordinary in many ways or at the very least your intent seems (seemed?) to be to make him so. Well, when I say not doing anything special, I mean in terms of the PC's and the campaign. In terms of the story, everything he does is special. Like I said, my intent was to make Sam, the unremarkable cleric, into SAM, GREATEST BASTION OF HOLINESS!!!! (joking) I like the way you term him, extraordinary. Perfectly fits in how I made him. I don't know you're group so I won't say this is a bad thing. It depends highly on how much they want to rely on being part of Sam's story vs how much they want to be making one of their own. I know my groups have often been willing to follow their patrons orders without really questioning but when I play I am always looking to make my own character a central figure. I am a lime-light hog and not afraid to admit it. If any NPC wants to make me part of his story he quckly finds that I am going to take at least an equal part of the stage time and if he's not a hugely forceful personality he'll be part of mine. Oh, I don't play Sam as a lime-light hog. I do my best to avoid it. My way of shining is by making obstacles that require either luck or ingenuity to pass. I always give extra XP for creativity. The most recent accurance was when my party encountered a beholder. It was gaurding the bend in a hallway. So, the the sorceress casts ghost sound to frighten the beholder, making a bluff check versus the beholder that is successful. Next, the wizard grabs a rock and transforms it into a rodent, which he casts fly on. Next, the crusader intimidates it to run into the passage. This startles the beholder, causing it to use its rays on the rodent. Then my party attacks it while its waiting to bring its other rays to bare. Good times. My point had really been that your multiple choice question seems like you give choice of A) Sam's story in this direction, B) Sam's story in that direction, or C) Sam's story with an unexpected twist. That, again, may simply be a matter of how you write his future or of the lack of any realy info on the world, campaign, or other characters. I may simply have forgotten to take into account that with only one story the others will inevitably feel weaker, if only because i haven't heard them yet. Don't forget D) None of the above. This is most likely it, as they are still adventuring. How can the future be set in stone? This is a story, so it has little to no effect on game play, save for giving me ideas. The conclusion comes from that same old fact. Much of the story is supposed to be set in his future. It was clear the parts which happen before the pcs meet but missed that much of the story happened after he left them. It seemed like both character and campaign story not like just character. For one, he's still with the PC's, so I can't really add to he story from that perspective, nor the PC's effect on the future, till we get there. This was just a story about what he might be. Sorry if I made it seem like the story was the Campaign story (note: Could you show me where so I can avoid that mistake in the future). I am suggesting that the story seems to have him changing people with his meer presence. He lets others take advantage of him and they decide to become better. He effectively insults the high priest of the temple of light and goodness and a young priestess risk unknown punishment to try and convince him not all are like that priest. People seem to be willing to make all sorts of exceptions for him just because of how good he is. Or maybe in your world people are just generally more caring and accepting of people who are in a worse financial or social position than themselves? Admittedly, I do not go into depth on exactly why they are changed, though I meant for it to be clear. The concept goes something like this: If one is unhappy or unsatisfied with the way things are, that person tends to try to emulate someone who is. That plays in as people who live in a competitive environment fight for resources, they become more obsessed with gaining more than their neighbor instead of enjoying what they do have. So, for someone to effectively steal from one guy, have that guy not only realize it, but not care, and seeing him content, does that not give strong grounds for a person to want to emulate that attitude and lifestyle so that they may achieve a measure of happiness? Thats how I see it. He effectively insults the high priest of the temple of light and goodness and a young priestess risk unknown punishment to try and convince him not all are like that priest. I'd like to give a special comment to this: afl dsajdflk eoiaoighaalkng :p Now thats out of the way, here is my response to this in particular. Sure, the high priest was insulted, but he wasn't a personal insult or even a directed one. So, why would the priestess be punished for that? Ya, the high priest is an arrogant and masterful man, but he is still a cleric of an exalted god. There is no reason for him to punish her. So, she isn't risking anything. But you did catch that my bias toward the unfortunate does creep through this writing, which I did not catch. Good job on finding it. I am suggesting that the story seems to have him changing people with his meer presence. This ties to the fact that people want to emulate what they see as 'better,' or more desirable. He lets others take advantage of him and they decide to become better. Correction, he lets others take advantage of him SO they can decide to become better. Not a world where psycho's run amok? Strange for d&d, since in many there seem to be cultist in every sewer.:P I know, crazy huh?:tie: Even so have you never heard of bums being beaten in the real world. They do noone any harm yet are targets for all the violence and anger people would never take out on a person closer to society's heart. No you have created a character who is both on the fringe of society and who everyone around seems very aware of. True, you do have a point. Yet the occurrences of homeless beatings are pretty rare. And if he died in some ditch by some random mugging, that wouldn't help the story much. Also, he was on the fringe of society as much as any other day-laborer. The reason that people know him is from gossip, more so than anything. Remember that in a city of 100,000 Eww, I was sort of going for the L.A. size (such as in the milions) and atmosphere, but that was totally my bad for not communicating it properly. Perhaps I am more of a cynic then I would like to believe but that makes him a great target for random violence to me. Remember that in a city of 100,000 it may take only 10 to form a huge force of destruction. A few troublemakers out looking for kicks, a drunk whose wife locked him out of his home, a priest of a dark diety who thinks he can get away with it because this man has no real connections in the city and he does, a dark-hearted noble who does it simply to prove he can get away with it; all are more than capable of bringing him harm. You are right, that any of these and more are capable of causing him harm. Yet are those chances high? Medium? Low? The majority of people never experience this kind of situation, and I use that mechanic to make Sam's story more symbolic, rather than mechanical. Suffering brings power. The basic tenet of one of your two major churches. Presumably causing suffering in others brings more than suffering of yourself. All must die. They're called fanatics. You mean to tell me these 2 churches make up 2/3 of the major churches in the city and you don't have any even one zealot. I think I've already explained why I think you're character would make a perfect target for them. As a logical rule, I make evil gods slightly less than popular. :rolleyes: And when you say major, I hope you mean 'major among all the evil religions.' For statistical purposes, the combined churches make up 1/40 of worshiped religions each. Which I think it pretty fair, considering the tenets of these religions. " The basic tenet of one of your two major churches. Presumably causing suffering in others brings more than suffering of yourself. All must die" is what they would tell others, to put them in the most logical light, so as to attract other worshipers. Well I'm not so certain I would use Ebberron as my example but I'll give you your ideas on supernatural evil. My concern then becomes where in the world did this farmer come to decide that supernatural evil was a problem? Where did he ever come into contact with such? And the idea that it is the only evil that good needs stand against is just ridiculous. It makes the character seem deluded to stand against supernatural evil and stand by against more mundane forms. I wanted him to come up with these idea's introspectively, without any outside influence. And in any D&D world, people KNOW that there are demons, KNOW that there are devils, and KNOW that things are out there that could be so much worse. So, common legends about this fiend's antics, or this horrible alien (read: abberation) allow the populous to understand what they are capable of. And coming to the realization with the knowledge that true evil(unholy energy, profane powers, ect) exists but the evil of man is circumstantial, then that leaves few options where true evil originates. Maybe this may not make sense to you, but it does to me. And its my bad for not stating it clearly; supernatural evil is the only evil HE should stand against (so that can give him the anti-undead specialty he has already). Sure he could be deluded, but then again, so is everyone else. One doesn't need to force their beliefs on others or preach in order to have a "better than though" attitude. I didn't do a good job of explaining myself though. What I was really trying to comment on was the passivity with which he treats views that he left home for. The contradiction between sure-of-his-ideals future saint and uncertain-in-himself-farmer-without-a-plan (a good concept but it can be hard to reconcile within the story at times). This also goes to the "magical saint" effect I mentioned. He seems to make the world better without actively working to do so. And that is where the Naive nature of Sam comes into full swing. Sometimes, life itself is a paradox. :ayyyy!: :ayyyy!: :bow: Honestly, the reason I object to the idea of 'magical' as a saint is that it dilutes the pureness I try to instill in the story of Sam. And technically, you can view his actions in making the world a better place in a variety of life. Sure, he could not be actively working on it, but only if you consider 'leading by example' not doing anything. You could also see that for every destroyed undead or banished fiend means the world loses some bit of extra evil. :schemes: :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :schemes: REALLY, REALLY GOOD IDEA FOR EPIC! [quote] Thanks again, Terjon. Really allowed me to mentally solidify the story mentally. Also, any other things you would like to note or maybe improve on would be fine. Remember everyone, that this story is designed for the express purpose of discovering my ability to make stories, so Please just comment on the story itself. Others are also welcome to comment!!!
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-15-07, 11:15 PM	I won't comment any further on game effect. Pure storytelling. I have to say I still disagree with you on how people react to someone like him. Most people prefer to tear down others over building up themselves. It's easier and gives a more direct sensensation. True a rare few may seek to emulate those who are happier but far more often I see people as willing to attack someone for being happier. They know their own troubles and seeing someone happy most prefer to assume that someone is less deserving than themselves of happiness. That may be the overwhelming pessimest in me but its also the (admittedly limited) study of human psychology I have undertaken. You assume that people will take a course of action which would make sense. I am basing my assumptions are based on observation of actual behavior. I think you underestimate the power of petty jealousy and fear in the human mind. You seem, too, to underestimate just how much a character who does not fit will stand out. I think you overestimate the desire to be a better person most people have. These are, of course, matters of perception so I don't hope to convince you of my points of view but rather to explain why much of your story rings a little hollow to me. It's in the lack of failure that the story seems weak. It's in the lack of struggle. He seems willing to accept poverty and so this is no real obstacle. He seems to operate under an assumption similiar to your own that most people desire to be good so he can easily turn a blind eye towards their wickedness. Basically your character, and perhaps yourself, see the world from a point of view that I, personally, cannot empathize with.
Paradox_of_Life 09-16-07, 02:01 AM	I won't comment any further on game effect. Pure storytelling. GREAT!!! I have to say I still disagree with you on how people react to someone like him. Most people prefer to tear down others over building up themselves. It's easier and gives a more direct sensensation. True a rare few may seek to emulate those who are happier but far more often I see people as willing to attack someone for being happier. They know their own troubles and seeing someone happy most prefer to assume that someone is less deserving than themselves of happiness. That may be the overwhelming pessimest in me but its also the (admittedly limited) study of human psychology I have undertaken. You assume that people will take a course of action which would make sense. I am basing my assumptions are based on observation of actual behavior. I agree with you, though somewhat on a contractual basis. True, if you live in the U.S. as I do, this is DEFINITELY how my (possibly our) world is. However, in my (our) world, these self-destructive urges stem from how negative my (our) environment and input (read: what we see through media and other ways of learning). Everything seems stacked in against those who try to climb the social-economic ladder. Its only natural to breed this unwholesome behavior. But, unlike you (don't get me wrong, I respect that you are a pessimist), I am unequivocally optimistic to my core. It should tell you why I expect that in a fantasy world were most of these negative features are non-existant, it is much easier to envision the lack of antipathetic sentiments. Example: Ever seen a movie in which they compare a modern dude (original meaning= someone who was very streetwise or street smart) to a plain country born person. The person from the countryside is always happy and cheerful, whereas the dude is always jaded from life, untrusting, and demeaning towards those seen as inferior. Also, a real life example: the AMISH!!! I have never even heard of an angry Amish. In the world of the countryside, characterized as highly community oriented, is not highly focused on aquiring wealth as those of us in the urban areas. Also, my limited study of human psyches (which consisted of a high school class and a college course) tells me that human behavior is defined by both the norms of society, so it depends where one lives for there to be a unified concept on a given population. I think you underestimate the power of petty jealousy and fear in the human mind. You seem, too, to underestimate just how much a character who does not fit will stand out. I think you overestimate the desire to be a better person most people have. These are, of course, matters of perception so I don't hope to convince you of my points of view but rather to explain why much of your story rings a little hollow to me. Given. And you didn't convince me, so you fail!!! SHUN THE FAILURE!!! (just kidding) It's in the lack of failure that the story seems weak. It's in the lack of struggle. He seems willing to accept poverty and so this is no real obstacle. He seems to operate under an assumption similiar to your own that most people desire to be good so he can easily turn a blind eye towards their wickedness. I see we differentiate on what we look for in a story. You seem to expect tragedy and struggle, while prefer glory and greatness. I see either as a good story. Basically your character, and perhaps yourself, see the world from a point of view that I, personally, cannot empathize with. Truth be told, I wrote this story drawing on Eastern Philosophy rather than Wester. (Eastern= Hebrew, Arab and Persian, not asian). Here is a link incase you do not know the differences http://www.1000ventures.com/business_guide/crosscuttings/cultures_east-west-phylosophy.html. Conflict is more western, while introspectivity is Eastern. That doesn't matter to the story much, just to give you some basis in which to understand it. I understand you do not like it, but I would appreciate any tips in delivery, or any additional content you may want me to consider.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-16-07, 03:36 AM	:evillaugh :rofl: :rant: I can not help but laugh. Our viewpoints.. So differrent and yet; yours based so heavily in my environment. I live not an hour away from the amish and I assure you that there most certainly is such a thing as an angry one. You wrote from a eastern perpective (Eastern= Hebrew, Arab and Persian, not asian). while I studied Hebrew and the Torah before my Bar Mitzvah. I could probably help a bit more but before I do I must ask permission. If I am to help I will have to play the role of the EVIL critic. The one who must tear down all work unless it lies within his favor. If you ask this of me then when I return I shall be insulting. I shall do all in my power to tear to shreds your work. I will do this not because I desire to hurt you but rather because it is the only way I think I will fully establish my viewpoints. I doubt very much you will widely agree with many of the points I make and I will make them in an exceptionally cruel fashion. I will taunt and tease and ridicule. That said if you really want the help let me know. I'll get back to you probably on Thursday or Friday as I won't be back at work (read have time and an internet connection) until Wednesday and that tends to be a busy day for me. Remember. I won't respond again without a request. :devil: :rant: :nonono: :banghead: :tantrum: :duel: :monk: :gah: :looloo: :censored: :whatsthis :thumbsdow :thumbsdow Edit: Oh yes, I will also do so because it is fun.:schemes: :evillaugh :schemes:
Paradox_of_Life 09-18-07, 03:20 PM	Only if you want to help me, than I give you permission. I could probably help a bit more but before I do I must ask permission. If I am to help I will have to play the role of the EVIL critic. The one who must tear down all work unless it lies within his favor. If you ask this of me then when I return I shall be insulting. I shall do all in my power to tear to shreds your work. I will do this not because I desire to hurt you but rather because it is the only way I think I will fully establish my viewpoints. I doubt very much you will widely agree with many of the points I make and I will make them in an exceptionally cruel fashion. I will taunt and tease and ridicule. ....You want to rape my story????:eek: Sure!!! Thanks in advance?
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-21-07, 03:46 AM	Alright, I'm not feeling quite so cruel as I was before my weekend so this shouldn't hurt quite as much as I had intended it to. Remember while reading that you were warned. You wanted a rating of your story. I bold story because you asked not for character, character background, synopsis, outline, proposal, etc. but rather for this story as a story. As a story it sucks. You have told the story of one individual in a nameless faceless world and his rather bland journey through it in which he accomplishes no great deeds and yet still angers the gods enough to hire a completely inappropriate hitman to take out not him, but rather (also innapropriately) his wife and child. You are born into a nameless village. There you do nameless things serving a nameless role. While such an opening may well be acceptable one must make use of this type of opening to give the world depth or the character roots. You do neither. You have not drawn in the reader nor have you added anything to the story. You experience a traumatic moment where you decide it is better for you to die than your fellow (nameless, faceless) villagers. YAY! The character has started to form a personality. True the few existing leads in no way lead to this conclusion but we forgive this. You are a good man willing to sacrifice for others. Too bad this start is screwed a few moments later as we will soon see. Before that however we go on to meet a (nameless, faceless) druid who saves you. He walks in silence for much of your time together, inappropriate for someone looking for a student, before revealing the only detail we get on him. He believes in preserving balance. IF SO WHY DID HE SAVE YOU! Your sacrifice was the cost of the villagers life. Someone who believes in balance should not have saved a you from a predator, especially after the predator was denied other prey through your actions. Still you are given time to consider whether to follow. You, for once appropriately, decide that his life is not sufficient for you. You are unable a short time later to make a sacrifice that your trauma indicated you would. You can not set aside your own desires for those of your family (see said I would get to it). Really at this point all you have is a vague philosphy that says you should be dooing more and yet when (a nameless, faceless) mom and dad tell you they can't afford to have you leave, you decide that this great, important (yet vague, don't forget vague) philosphy of yours is more important than staying home and helping to support your family. Over the next few weeks, he traveled, and traveled, and traveled, getting into many the adventure. Aside the horrid sentence structure, I need to point out that this is, perhaps, the greatest Nameless, Faceless moment in the story. You not only don't tell us anything of the adventures you don't even give us an idea as to how he felt about them. Here is a perfect moment to give both your character growth and your world defenition. Instead we get "Over the next few weeks, he traveled, and traveled, and traveled, getting into many the adventure". You travel, apparently alone, through the nameless faceless world. You learn for the first time, without reaction, of the world outside your little village. Congratulations! You just plodded through the tomb of horrors in a monotone. You read the entirety of the Lord of the Rings trilogy without once changing the inflection of your voice. You have written the greatest novel ever to not use a single adjective or adverb. Now weeks later you finally finish:confused: adventuring. You arrive at a great city. Jewel of the world. Great opening to describing a city, mind telling me what happened to the rest of the description? Never mind the little extra you put in to describe his sense of wonder is certainly a wonder compared to so little given us elsewhere. We even get a little more as he visit the temples later. Before we get to the temples however we must deal with work. That this wandering beggar actually finds any is a wonder and of course we hear nothing of how. Perhaps he worked in a wainwright or blacksmith shop back home and so has appropriate experience? Certainly would be nice to know. While here he for the first time observes human behavior around him. YAY! Surely this will be a defining moment for... no... wait... he winds up fighting supernatural evil. Never mind this can't further the story much. Instead all we get is the contradiction that in his close-knit community back home he, unreallistically, NEVER met anyone who cared more for themself than for others. You almost manage to get across a point of how he wishes to see the world made better in order to see people made better but at this point his desires are so vague and confusing I have to read through everything I have so far to guess that this is what your going for. Now we get to the temple. Surely we will learn much of the people here. Surely the gods they worship will tell us of who they are and what they believe. NOPE. We find they tolerate evil gods in their midst but what little we learn of such gods' doctrine gives us no reason why they would. Here our wayward hero goes first to the evil gods temples and Big Shock decides they are sources of evil in the world. The Nuetral god of the road (and by the way don't give alignments to churches in stories, they may well be so but it should be for the reader to learn) isn't good enough for him. The good? god of home is focused on home and survival:confused:. Home and community seems a better option unless this is (and its possible given how little we know of it) a frontier world. Ahh but now we come to the great source of good. The god of light and holiness and stereotypical goodness. Here we encounter an archetype of a priest and a nameless girl who works there (acolyte #3 played by Joan Smith) and who takes a random interest in showing the main character to true light of this god. He ingores her of course since he is so strong in his vague conviction of how to bring good to the world and her path clearly:confused: isn't a match to what he wants to do. Not only this but she shows him something a potential evil (the tainting influence of archetypical high priest) to rid the world of and he decides to leave:rolleyes: . Now we get to meet a god and the other being in the story that actually bears lines other than the main character. This single part of the story bears note as having great potential. Unlike much of the rest of the story this part both makes sense for the most part but has you actually interacting with others. The god test him and he easily passes. NOTE: When a god offer you the key to the door to everything you desire you keep it. It doesn't matter if all you seek is happiness for others, as that may well be what the key leads to. Note too that gods who show people a path usually help them start on such. Lastly note that the path the god shows has nothing to do with supernatural evil:rolleyes: . Thats how Sam became a cleric and chose Good and Sun domains. He went with Vow of Poverty because he thought that possessiveness was a major tool of evil, and his life should be an example. The next part is him adventuring, which the only significant parts are that he became a powerful force of good, and how he met his wife, which was in a later session, which I will paraphrase."Story summarily ends here":P Don't use game terms in a story. I know its been mentioned but this seems a good point to reiterate. "he thought that possessiveness was a major tool of evil," When? "the only significant parts... which I will paraphrase" You paraphrased the only important parts?:confused: Those parts are stories unto themselves. Either tell them or don't mention them. As for your ending it could be agood start to a villian as mentioned in an earlier post. Still 2 gods together managed to hire Asmodeous:confused: Uh-Un. Asmodeous is no hired gun. Don't care how powerful you are he does not serve that role. Not for a price less than accesnsion to god-hood at least and you have done nothing to warrant such (indeed you've done nothing within the confines of the story). You then decide to go after Asmodeous, rather than the gods your, now, ultimately powerful character surely knows hired him. You give up the cause of good which you have clung to for so long after your first real encounter with evil or at the very least after the first time evil manages to actually harm you in any significant manner. This is actually realistic, though it's less so that your first such encounter should occur at such great power. You don't make a bad lead-in for a future story, though I'm not a fan of to-be-continued storylines. But the very concept of becoming an evil to rival the lord of hell is ridiculous. Especially if your only talent is dealing death. No I think your going to have to get much darker than that to rival a demon let alone the king of evil. All in all the story is fractuous, disjointed, and unsupported from within itself. There is little to lead us from one point to another and you skip significant points in order to glorify the main character who is apparently making his major decisions without any cause. Even his basic reasoning is unsupported by his environement and upbringing. It reads like an auto-biography from the worlds most arrogant would-be saint rather than the story of an actual one.
Fithero 09-21-07, 08:07 AM	It's like looking into the sun....:gah: Terjon with a dark side.... remind me never to tick you off dude :P Man, i do creative writing as a major and you tore that apart like a pro... come to my uni and they'd make you a tutor straight up :P Thats really all i got... i aint exactly gonna bag out the dudes story after that apocalyptic assault, id be amazed if he's still alive ;) Peace
Terjon of the Blue Rose 09-22-07, 01:18 AM	:rolleyes: Sunshine Coast eh. Cross country or cross ocean? California, Australia, Canada? Nahh. Too far.:P