Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ra-Tiel 12-21-04, 09:05 AM	Hi. I've got a question on one of my characters (first one in my signature): do you think she's pure stereotype or a good character or that something's wrong about her? Mindari is a cg female drow favored soul (currently level 3) and a follower of Lirr. Her background story: Mindari Tel'Arrasahl, born to Junika and Mendru Tel'Arrasahl has lived in Kenduradar (one of my DM's custom setting drow cities) for just a few years, when her parents decided to flee from their society. Her mother and her father actually have fallen in love with each other, and threatened through growing opposition from the other drow, they decided to leave for the surface world. There they travelled for many years, always being cursed and turned away, seeking shelter whereever they were allowed to stay. But they realized that they were happy, no longer living in a cutthroat and blackmail society, where one false word can mean the difference between a magical item as a reward or being tortured to death. So their love grew even stronger despite any setbacks, and finally they found an elven village that allowed them to stay, as the village's leaders were glad to give them the opportunity to prove their value to the community - even when that meant to overrule most of the more influencial families. Junika was an adept cleric who found new strength in the teachings of Correllon after abandoning Lolth, and Mendru was a trained fighter and also had a knack for magic. Both served the village well, and with time the opposition towards her family lessened. But after some years, a group of drow assassins were sent out to put up an example as for what would happen to traitors to the Spiderqueen. They attacked the village at night (of course!) with weapon and spell and many elves were killed, along with Mindari's father. In the aftermath of the attack, the pressure of the families who already didn't like the dark elven pair and their daughter and who had lost many husbands, brothers and sons demanded that Mindari and Junika were to be cast out of the village for they "attracted the wrath of the fallen ones". Only few elves spoke for Junika and her daughter, and so they both had to leave. After many more years travelling the world in search for a place to call "home", they were finally given the opportunity to settle down near a new human village. Mindari quickly befriended a human bard (she was a follower of Lirr, godess of song and arts) and found strength in their songs and tunes. After growing up (my DM set the age at which elves were considered adult to about 20, just tired of having to wait a century to be able to survive, but that's another topic ;) ) to 19 years, she set out to bring the other races the message, that not all drow were beings of pure evil, and that even they could have pure souls and beautiful minds (after being turned away on the day she lost her father whom she really loved). Lirr saw a chance of Mindari being able to increase the exchange of arts and music between all races against all odds, and set a tiny spark of her brilliance in her soul (therefore class: favored soul) to support her. After a few months of travel, she met the rest of the group (how conicident :D ) and they set out investigating a cave-in that opened up an entrace to a vast dungeon (and in fact the "World's Largest Dungeon" :ayyyy!: ) I ask because I got the impression, one of my fellow players is not particularly glad of me playing a good drow. When we play Forgotten Realms he's usually the DM and till today opposed any of my attempts to play a good member of a race that's generally considered evil. He absolutely refuses to allow this kind of character into his games (I know, DM's always right) because, well..., just because. And of course these races are said to be evil because they are evil, if you ask him about that topic, and therefore: no good drow!. In my opinion, every player should be allowed to play the character he wants (if within reasonable limits as opposed to "King of Smack", "Hulking Hurler", "Dervish",...), even if it is completly stereotype or contra-stereotype. Any comments, suggestions, questions??
KikUSquaNtheNuts 12-21-04, 10:09 AM	This is a controversial issue, and I'm not sure where I stand on it, to be honest.... but I figure I'll put in my two coppers just for the sake of argument. First, we have to decide what a stereotype really is. Personally, I would say that playing an evil drow is more a stereotype than playing a good one. When you see a drow, you think "evil." No questions asked (usually). THAT'S a stereotype. Playing a good drow is more likely to be considered a fad - the popular or fashionable thing to do. "But mom! Everybody else is doing it!" This is probably the reason your DM is discouraging you from playing a good drow. It has become very common in the past few years and goes against the old stereotypes that were laid down in 1st edition (Fiend Folio, I believe). Either that, or the DM doesn't want to deal with the roleplaying difficulties associated with having a drow PC. However, Wizards of the Coast seems to be pushing the whole "good drow" concept, at least in the Forgotten Realms. I'm not just talking about the Drizzt books or the Elistraee worshippers. The drow have come to the surface and one might as well consider Cormanthor occupied territory. This makes it easy to say, "my character left House Jaelre and met the rest of the party in Shadowdale, where they learned to overlook my race and accept me as an adventuring companion." Even mechanically, the Lesser Drow race was created for players who want the flavor of the drow but not the horrid level adjustment. I'm not certain whether this push has come from Wizards employees actually wanting more good drow or if it is simply because they realized, "hey, this whole good drow concept is selling really well... lets make more." I will assume the latter. The more people ask for it, the more Wizards will push it because it will sell more books. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with your character. I have turned down drow characters, however, particularly chaotic good male drow rangers with two scimitars and a panther animal companion. :nonono: Don't get me wrong... I'm a huge fan of Drizzt Do'Urden. I have all the novels, the Menzoberranzan boxed set, Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark, and his D&D miniature. Its just hard to justify how many drow rangers have popped up in campaigns since his grand introduction... and blatant imitations are just a lack of creativity on the player's part. A favored soul, though? And worshipping something other than Meilikki or Elistraee? Sounds interesting to me. I'd allow it. Good luck with the character and with the DM.
Ra-Tiel 12-21-04, 12:00 PM	My favored soul (a divine spontaneous caster, not unlike the sorcerer, gets some energy resistances, wings and damage reduction at later levels; choose either Miniature's Handbook or Complete Divine for info, it's just copy/paste from the older Mini's HB :ahem: ) is being played in a DM-home-brew setting allowing only Greyhawk deities. Lirr is the (lesser) goddess of music and arts from Greyhawk (mentioned in the "Deities"-Chapter of Complete Divine). The person who is kind of reserved of drow is another player in this group, and when we played FR he was our DM. This might clarify something for you. ;) Our DM was genereous and said that every character gets at least 4 skill points per level, so that Wizards, Fighters, and Favored Souls :D get the opportunity to finally take some cross-class skills (or in the case of the fighter some skills at all). Therefore Mindari has 2 ranks(!) in each(!!) Perfom(sing) and Perform(stringed instruments) and is carrying a lap-harp. I'm also a fan of Drizzt, but sometimes I just wonder how he could have survived that long! I've read the first 16 books of the Dark-Elf saga (I've got the german books, don't know how many books there are in England/America) but don't have the money around buying more. And yes, I'm fed off with male cg drow two-scimitar-fighting fighter/rangers, too.
KikUSquaNtheNuts 12-21-04, 11:02 PM	So... what did you play in the drow-hating DM's campaign? Wow, I like the 4 skill points for any character idea. Does the DM also add 2 points to every other class's skill points? It seems this would be needed to keep the skill-intense classes ahead of the game. Actually... Drizzt isn't that old. My guess would be somewhere between 80 and 100. At the end of Passage to Dawn he was 66. Its not that he's survived so long... just that he's survived so much in such a short amount of time (for an elf, at least).
Ra-Tiel 12-22-04, 04:26 AM	First, our FR DM (the player who seems to dislike my drow favored soul) just doesn't like drow, esp as player characters, he not actually hates them. In our last FR campaign I played (if I remember correctly) a ng female werewolf necromancer specialist who was raised by Thalantyr the Conjurer in High Hedge (remember Baldur's Gate I ??). Our group (v3.0) consisted of my necromancer, a halfling psion with the discipline that required a high Con (don't know its name right now, psychometabolism perhaps?; he had con 20!!) and a Kir-Lanan monk who wielded a +3 mercurial greatsword :blink: (I know, I know..., why in all nine layers of Baator did he play a monk and not a fighter?!?!). We were plagued by doppelganger assassins who were sent by an Alhoon (mind flayer lich) after us because he thought we were working for the Baatezu and tried to extend the Blood War into his own demi-plane. We didn't make it past level 7 (the group and the campaign broke apart at that time). No, our DM just boosted all those classes with "2+Int mod" skill points. Ever thought about it? A paladin of Sune must keep his mouth shut and not try to dance during a ceremony because he would ruin the whole performance because of his "lack of skill" points he doesn't have in Perform :confused: ? But I think that would be more appropriate for another board...
Wrathamon 12-23-04, 10:45 PM	I would say playing a Drow is stereotypical :) playing a "good" drow is a fad like someone said. your backstory is also stereotypical imo... BUT... that doesnt mean its bad You have a very Romantic backstory and its feasible. I would think that your Drow parents would have a harder time and most likely would have been slain by "ignorance" playing in the World's Largest Dungeon really goes against your characters backstory somewhat... you are going back into a underworld :) overall, its not bad. It's decent. I think it works. I also don't like people playing drow... but I dont like them playing "monsters" period unless that is the campaign. But, if I were to allow Drow... your backstory would work.. I would harrash you in game a lot. Elves would hunt you down along with Drow. Remember Drizzt hid out in the Snowy North and let his legend grow before really entering into civilization... and when he did he made sure he befriended "people" in high places. He is more an exception to the rule, and that is what makes his character interesting. If all drow, were able to walk around normally, then what is the point? Have fun in your campaign and hopefully the Drow hater doesnt ruin it for you... maybe you two can play that up and try and write some backstory into it?
Tzu-Theory 12-24-04, 12:56 PM	The Drow fad has made it difficult for me to stomach Drow in any of my own campaigns. Your DM may be experience Drow-lash ;). It also puts stress on a Good-Aligned party to have a drow walking around with them. -Matt
Wrathamon 12-24-04, 02:41 PM	Drow lash is similiar to Dragon lash I experienced with 1st and 2nd edition... Everytime someone would go my character is a dragon in human form I wanted to hurl my 20 sider at them. I guess Drow and Half dragons are the D20 version :)
Jubei_the_Samurai 12-26-04, 06:40 PM	Hey hey hey! ... ... ... ...sorry... I feel that, in a way we are all doing a fad, and in some views, a stereotype. Now, I believe, as long as you can come up with a damn good story for your character, I will allow it, but that it not to say my character will, if I decide he should hate drow. Really, nothing is impossible, except for a human and a dragon to mate...ouch... Don't you wish everyone could be as tolerant and caring about players as me? I generally have no problem with anyone being something "unique", but when it gets to the point of a chaotic evil Vanara riding a dog, that I draw the line. So basically, make sure the good drow hater suffers! But also remember, a DM has universal power, he can send you back to level one, or he can have you die in the most grotesque manner possible...as I learned one fateful day when I decided to "say hello" to two daughters of a racialist hobbit...
Ra-Tiel 12-30-04, 02:35 PM	Thanks for your comments. After a late talk with the other player in question, it turned out to be a misunderstanding: My character is still running around with 3 points of Con damage from those ****** ********,******* *******, ***** ********, ***********!!! stirges, and the elven ranger in our group (the only character besides mine with some ranks in the heal skill; guess who's playing him...) didn't seem to care enough for me to help me recover with longterm care, even if I had done it for him. Well, it turned out, that he had just overlooked that I'm still suffering ability damage form our last fight with those blood-sucking giant mosqitos. He didn't want to let me suffer and will better look after me in the future :) . I personally really like good drow (read: any good alignment) a lot more than these half-way-that-but-not-really-evil drow (read: [lawful/chaotic] neutral). I've seen more characters (not always first hand, however) that used a neutral alignment as a bad excuse for playing evil. The last example is even official: that "dragon assassin" from the latest Dungeon-mag. She's cn on the paper, while "being driven by her hatred to satisfy her blood lust for dragons, hunting and slaying them heedless of their color". When she encountered two young siblings, she killed one, crippled the other, and cut the dead one to pieces to learn of its anatomy while forcing the other, still alive, dragon to watch it. Kind of reminds me of Irenicus from Baldur's Gate 2...
Wrathamon 12-30-04, 02:41 PM	yah that sounds pretty CE to me