The Merovingian as an archetype [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Merovingian as an archetype [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Candin
05-07-07, 11:10 PM I was watching the Matrix Reloaded and got to the part with the Merovingian and started thinking "this guy would be awesome to play."

Anyone know what kind of quirks or eccentricities I could bring to the table? Or his alignment for that matter?

As for class, I figured his personality would work best with a psion, or a wizard. Maybe lawful neutral, lawful evil, or neutral?
boggler65
05-08-07, 02:40 PM First of all, Merovingian is a dynasty of French kings. This ridiculous name is just one reason why the matrix series was incredibly horrible.

Second he'd probably be a psion. It represents his abilites well. He'd have a few levels of expert and incredibly high intelligence.
As an Arhcetype he's just a controlller, he'll have all kinds of henchmen at his disposal to facilitate his power-brokering.
Eccentricities... well he's a know-it all, he refuses to eat low class or cheap food or wear cheap clothes. He will only associate with the parties patron, unless forced, in which case he'll probably kill them for inconveniencing him.

His alightment? There is absolutely no way he would be any lawful alignment. As a power-broker his very existence depends on chaos, and having the laws and power base constantly in flux.

He would most likely be Chaotic Neutral, he is after all a self-serving ass who profits solely off of war strife and other forms of controlled insanity. He is not however evil in the true sense, he doesn't care who he helps, as long as he doesn't get screwed in the process.
CrimsonDeath
05-08-07, 06:59 PM I don't think Chaotic suits him. No, he doesn't respect the law, but he's not opposed to exploiting it when he can. Furthermore, he doesn't do things simply because he can, or simply because it seems like a good idea at the time; he seems like the sort of person who has an overarching plan, which is not a notable aspect of Chaotic individuals. Furthermore, I think a "self-serving ass who profits solely off of war strife and other forms of controlled insanity" is a very good example of an Evil person, particularly a Neutral Evil person. It's true that he doesn't care who he helps, but he also doesn't care who he hurts as long as he profits.
Fithero
05-08-07, 07:00 PM I dont actually recall him having any narly powers, he seemed to just be able to coerce people by force of will. I'd say make him a rogue with really high Int and Cha, and make him focus on interaction skills (Bluff, sense motive, intimidate and so on).
Candin
05-08-07, 08:39 PM He doesn't demonstrate any particular proficiency in the movie outside of being an extremely influential person. I liked the character's design though, and thought it would make a good archetype. Make a character with a similar personality (:

And I'm aware of the Merovingians. My query, however, had nothing to do with a bunch of dead french monarchs.
Lanoitakude
05-09-07, 12:06 AM The Merovingian from the matrix was definately a hedonist. As a role-playing character, never hesitate to induldge. This sort of character spares no expense when it comes to luxuries and whatnot.

A Psion(telepath) does seem to fit well, or, like was mentioned, a rogueish character.
ericSHINRA
05-09-07, 05:00 PM Can't comment on the Psion idea but he's certainly a Rogue-type... Perhaps with the Feat Variant in place of Sneak Attack. In terms of roleplaying aspects, a character of his type would be Neutral Evil.

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble.
Radijs
05-10-07, 03:39 AM Oh yes definately NE or CE.
Throughout the movie he showed a lot of rash and selfish actions. (remember the slice of cake?)
As for class, I'd indeed go with something like telepath.
pyro_cat
05-10-07, 10:04 AM I feel almost like the Merovingian has to be Lawful, in some aspect. His biggest fix is determinsim and causality... he believes that the entire universe, including himself, and even Neo (who is, after all, supposed to be past such things) is subject to laws of logic that cannot be denied or resisted.

As a philosophy student, I can tell you it's a very hard theory to entirely reject, you end up wandering into quantum physics and far beyond what conventional science can help us with. Either way, I've always felt that those who truly believe in causality are the ultimate "lawful" entities, because they awknowledge that every aspect of themselves and their life is governed by unchangable, undeniable rules.

The Merovingian also displays other, more traditionally lawful traits. Highly organized, honest, code-abiding, honourable... he's not a nice guy, but he's certainly not chaotic.

You could probably even make the argument that he's not even particularly evil in the clear and obvious way that someone like Smith is, but I'm not going to go there, because that's not really how good/evil work in D&D.
pyro_cat
05-10-07, 10:05 AM As for class... Beguiler, Psion, Wizard, social Rogue, or some variant Bard all seem like they could be appropriate. His displays of power are extremely subtle.
boggler65
05-10-07, 08:33 PM I dont actually recall him having any narly powers, he seemed to just be able to coerce people by force of will. I'd say make him a rogue with really high Int and Cha, and make him focus on interaction skills (Bluff, sense motive, intimidate and so on).

First of all, try to remember that this is DnD, not the ****-rag movie the Matrix.

If you want to discuss the matrix, well... this isn't the place.

If you want to discuss philosophy, this isn't the place.

Now, if you actually want to discuss a character.

First thing regarding that:

During the movie... god I hate to admit that I've seen it... the character we are talking about does indeed have certain overriding principles dictating the extent of his influence/power/nature of his abilities, etc. This, coupled with his belief in causality does not indicate that his alignment has a lawful component in DnD terms.
Alignment in DnD is based on actions within a system, and in the movie even he is most assuredly an element of chaos, due to the fact that even though his powers are goverened by the limitations of the system (or for plot purposes causality) his exists outside of the system, almost in spite of it, much like Smith.
Actions dictate alignment, not philospical beliefs.

Example:

A guy who believes in causality walks into a bar, he feels an impulse to knock over a glass on a nearby table. So he does. In his own mind there was some cosmic law guiding his hand, but in the minds of the people around him the event was a random, chaotic occurence.

Example:

A guy is trying to explain both causality, and the chaos theory. To explain the latter he demonstrates visible evidence, by letting a drop of water fall on his hand, drying it off, and repeating ad infinitum. Demonstrating that each time the drop of water will roll off of his hand along a different path, not matter what he does. He then attempts to explain causality, but is unable to provide demonstrable evidence, because it is causality, it's effects are intangible, and open to human interpertation.
To the person who is listening to this explanation, which theory would seem more believable, the one for which tangible evidence was given? Or the one for which a nice, but ultimately unprovable explanation was given.

That is how DnD works, by nice logical rules, meaning the things that can be easily demonstrated i.e. a characters actions, mean more than the demented ramblings of said character i.e. beliefs.

By the way pyro cat, why do you consider, highly organized, honest, code abiding, and honorable to be exclusively lawful traits?
Are you saying that there is some rule that I missed in the DMG or PHB that says? "...all persons of chaotic alignment must be dirty, disorganized, must lie pathologically at all times, must break every law simply because, must never abide by a code of conduct, and must never honor an agreement or deal; in short a chaotic individual must at all times do his best to screw over everyone that isn't himself, irregardless of how it affects his life, goals etc...?"
Do you believe that a chaotic good barbarian doesn't act according to his own code of honor?
That a chaotic neutral mage's workshop must always be filled with clutter and or have crap lying all over the place?
Fithero
05-10-07, 11:33 PM First of all, try to remember that this is DnD, not the ****-rag movie the Matrix.

gfy
ericSHINRA
05-11-07, 12:04 AM By the way pyro cat, why do you consider, highly organized, honest, code abiding, and honorable to be exclusively lawful traits?
Are you saying that there is some rule that I missed in the DMG or PHB that says? "...all persons of chaotic alignment must be dirty, disorganized, must lie pathologically at all times, must break every law simply because, must never abide by a code of conduct, and must never honor an agreement or deal; in short a chaotic individual must at all times do his best to screw over everyone that isn't himself, irregardless of how it affects his life, goals etc...?"
Do you believe that a chaotic good barbarian doesn't act according to his own code of honor?
That a chaotic neutral mage's workshop must always be filled with clutter and or have crap lying all over the place?

Did he say those traits were exclusively lawful? Or say any of that rubbish?

I must have missed something...

The Merovingian also displays other, more traditionally lawful traits. Highly organized, honest, code-abiding, honourable... he's not a nice guy, but he's certainly not chaotic.

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

“Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.

The adaptibility he shows simply factors into his overal neutrality with evil leanings.
Thrincold
05-11-07, 09:15 AM The archetype would be Chaotic or Neutral, merely by his continued existence. He is a program that escaped the mainframe to escape deletion, therefore he existence is breaking the rules.

A lawful creature would have done as was expected within the rules.

So, my take, a NE psirogue (from WOTC website).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Candin 05-07-07, 11:10 PM	I was watching the Matrix Reloaded and got to the part with the Merovingian and started thinking "this guy would be awesome to play." Anyone know what kind of quirks or eccentricities I could bring to the table? Or his alignment for that matter? As for class, I figured his personality would work best with a psion, or a wizard. Maybe lawful neutral, lawful evil, or neutral?
boggler65 05-08-07, 02:40 PM	First of all, Merovingian is a dynasty of French kings. This ridiculous name is just one reason why the matrix series was incredibly horrible. Second he'd probably be a psion. It represents his abilites well. He'd have a few levels of expert and incredibly high intelligence. As an Arhcetype he's just a controlller, he'll have all kinds of henchmen at his disposal to facilitate his power-brokering. Eccentricities... well he's a know-it all, he refuses to eat low class or cheap food or wear cheap clothes. He will only associate with the parties patron, unless forced, in which case he'll probably kill them for inconveniencing him. His alightment? There is absolutely no way he would be any lawful alignment. As a power-broker his very existence depends on chaos, and having the laws and power base constantly in flux. He would most likely be Chaotic Neutral, he is after all a self-serving ass who profits solely off of war strife and other forms of controlled insanity. He is not however evil in the true sense, he doesn't care who he helps, as long as he doesn't get screwed in the process.
CrimsonDeath 05-08-07, 06:59 PM	I don't think Chaotic suits him. No, he doesn't respect the law, but he's not opposed to exploiting it when he can. Furthermore, he doesn't do things simply because he can, or simply because it seems like a good idea at the time; he seems like the sort of person who has an overarching plan, which is not a notable aspect of Chaotic individuals. Furthermore, I think a "self-serving ass who profits solely off of war strife and other forms of controlled insanity" is a very good example of an Evil person, particularly a Neutral Evil person. It's true that he doesn't care who he helps, but he also doesn't care who he hurts as long as he profits.
Fithero 05-08-07, 07:00 PM	I dont actually recall him having any narly powers, he seemed to just be able to coerce people by force of will. I'd say make him a rogue with really high Int and Cha, and make him focus on interaction skills (Bluff, sense motive, intimidate and so on).
Candin 05-08-07, 08:39 PM	He doesn't demonstrate any particular proficiency in the movie outside of being an extremely influential person. I liked the character's design though, and thought it would make a good archetype. Make a character with a similar personality (: And I'm aware of the Merovingians. My query, however, had nothing to do with a bunch of dead french monarchs.
Lanoitakude 05-09-07, 12:06 AM	The Merovingian from the matrix was definately a hedonist. As a role-playing character, never hesitate to induldge. This sort of character spares no expense when it comes to luxuries and whatnot. A Psion(telepath) does seem to fit well, or, like was mentioned, a rogueish character.
ericSHINRA 05-09-07, 05:00 PM	Can't comment on the Psion idea but he's certainly a Rogue-type... Perhaps with the Feat Variant in place of Sneak Attack. In terms of roleplaying aspects, a character of his type would be Neutral Evil. A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble.
Radijs 05-10-07, 03:39 AM	Oh yes definately NE or CE. Throughout the movie he showed a lot of rash and selfish actions. (remember the slice of cake?) As for class, I'd indeed go with something like telepath.
pyro_cat 05-10-07, 10:04 AM	I feel almost like the Merovingian has to be Lawful, in some aspect. His biggest fix is determinsim and causality... he believes that the entire universe, including himself, and even Neo (who is, after all, supposed to be past such things) is subject to laws of logic that cannot be denied or resisted. As a philosophy student, I can tell you it's a very hard theory to entirely reject, you end up wandering into quantum physics and far beyond what conventional science can help us with. Either way, I've always felt that those who truly believe in causality are the ultimate "lawful" entities, because they awknowledge that every aspect of themselves and their life is governed by unchangable, undeniable rules. The Merovingian also displays other, more traditionally lawful traits. Highly organized, honest, code-abiding, honourable... he's not a nice guy, but he's certainly not chaotic. You could probably even make the argument that he's not even particularly evil in the clear and obvious way that someone like Smith is, but I'm not going to go there, because that's not really how good/evil work in D&D.
pyro_cat 05-10-07, 10:05 AM	As for class... Beguiler, Psion, Wizard, social Rogue, or some variant Bard all seem like they could be appropriate. His displays of power are extremely subtle.
boggler65 05-10-07, 08:33 PM	I dont actually recall him having any narly powers, he seemed to just be able to coerce people by force of will. I'd say make him a rogue with really high Int and Cha, and make him focus on interaction skills (Bluff, sense motive, intimidate and so on). First of all, try to remember that this is DnD, not the ****-rag movie the Matrix. If you want to discuss the matrix, well... this isn't the place. If you want to discuss philosophy, this isn't the place. Now, if you actually want to discuss a character. First thing regarding that: During the movie... god I hate to admit that I've seen it... the character we are talking about does indeed have certain overriding principles dictating the extent of his influence/power/nature of his abilities, etc. This, coupled with his belief in causality does not indicate that his alignment has a lawful component in DnD terms. Alignment in DnD is based on actions within a system, and in the movie even he is most assuredly an element of chaos, due to the fact that even though his powers are goverened by the limitations of the system (or for plot purposes causality) his exists outside of the system, almost in spite of it, much like Smith. Actions dictate alignment, not philospical beliefs. Example: A guy who believes in causality walks into a bar, he feels an impulse to knock over a glass on a nearby table. So he does. In his own mind there was some cosmic law guiding his hand, but in the minds of the people around him the event was a random, chaotic occurence. Example: A guy is trying to explain both causality, and the chaos theory. To explain the latter he demonstrates visible evidence, by letting a drop of water fall on his hand, drying it off, and repeating ad infinitum. Demonstrating that each time the drop of water will roll off of his hand along a different path, not matter what he does. He then attempts to explain causality, but is unable to provide demonstrable evidence, because it is causality, it's effects are intangible, and open to human interpertation. To the person who is listening to this explanation, which theory would seem more believable, the one for which tangible evidence was given? Or the one for which a nice, but ultimately unprovable explanation was given. That is how DnD works, by nice logical rules, meaning the things that can be easily demonstrated i.e. a characters actions, mean more than the demented ramblings of said character i.e. beliefs. By the way pyro cat, why do you consider, highly organized, honest, code abiding, and honorable to be exclusively lawful traits? Are you saying that there is some rule that I missed in the DMG or PHB that says? "...all persons of chaotic alignment must be dirty, disorganized, must lie pathologically at all times, must break every law simply because, must never abide by a code of conduct, and must never honor an agreement or deal; in short a chaotic individual must at all times do his best to screw over everyone that isn't himself, irregardless of how it affects his life, goals etc...?" Do you believe that a chaotic good barbarian doesn't act according to his own code of honor? That a chaotic neutral mage's workshop must always be filled with clutter and or have crap lying all over the place?
Fithero 05-10-07, 11:33 PM	First of all, try to remember that this is DnD, not the ****-rag movie the Matrix. gfy
ericSHINRA 05-11-07, 12:04 AM	By the way pyro cat, why do you consider, highly organized, honest, code abiding, and honorable to be exclusively lawful traits? Are you saying that there is some rule that I missed in the DMG or PHB that says? "...all persons of chaotic alignment must be dirty, disorganized, must lie pathologically at all times, must break every law simply because, must never abide by a code of conduct, and must never honor an agreement or deal; in short a chaotic individual must at all times do his best to screw over everyone that isn't himself, irregardless of how it affects his life, goals etc...?" Do you believe that a chaotic good barbarian doesn't act according to his own code of honor? That a chaotic neutral mage's workshop must always be filled with clutter and or have crap lying all over the place? Did he say those traits were exclusively lawful? Or say any of that rubbish? I must have missed something... The Merovingian also displays other, more traditionally lawful traits. Highly organized, honest, code-abiding, honourable... he's not a nice guy, but he's certainly not chaotic. Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. The adaptibility he shows simply factors into his overal neutrality with evil leanings.
Thrincold 05-11-07, 09:15 AM	The archetype would be Chaotic or Neutral, merely by his continued existence. He is a program that escaped the mainframe to escape deletion, therefore he existence is breaking the rules. A lawful creature would have done as was expected within the rules. So, my take, a NE psirogue (from WOTC website).