Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maleous 08-18-03, 08:14 AM	Hi everyone. I've read a couple of the posts on the mental atributes and how to role-play them. Wisdom unfortunatly still is wishy-washy definition. I play a TN gnome druid str 6, dex 8, con 14, int 14 wis 19 cha 8 My initial character concept was a quite little guy who put his foot in it (it = the cow **** or the mouth... dex=cha) all the time. But when threaten produced a flame blade and barkskin or just turned into an ape. After reaching level 4 I have come to the realization that a High Wis TN charactaer is BORING. I mean I'm wise so I'm meant to have enough common-sense not to charge or do anything rash. I'm TN which further reinforces this. The only solution I can think of is switching to CN and playing on the trickster aspects of Gnome heritage. But the high wis I just don't get. When I think of wise people I think of the Dalai Lama, meditating monks etc. These people sit around doing nothing and only speak if spoken to because "an empty veessel makes the most noise." Help! Also my other character is a human paladin who has stats; str 14, dex 12, con 14, wis 9, int 10, cha 14 The wis 9 might seem strange but I intend on taking Purple Dragon night as early as possible. Scrolls and wands can easily fill in for paladin spells. Also I don't want this character to buff before combat all the time, he should be able to react. In min/max talk first levels scrolls are cheaper than a +1 armour item. The problem(possibly) comes with the leadership feat. I want this guy to be a strategist at high levels. But how can I justify equiping 50+ guys with longspears and longbows and sticking them in a phalanx with only 10 int and 9 wis? You may have noticed that the two characters are almost exact opposites of each other in alignment and stats. Much more fun that way.
Zakar 08-18-03, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by Maleous The problem(possibly) comes with the leadership feat. I want this guy to be a strategist at high levels. But how can I justify equiping 50+ guys with longspears and longbows and sticking them in a phalanx with only 10 int and 9 wis? Spend some skill points on knowledge war. This could reflect the paladin being trained in what to do. With leadership comes responsibility. The paladin would not want to throw all of his followers to their death. So he seeks out a retired general to train him on how to handle the responsibility. Yes your low int will hurt your bonus. But after five ranks or whatever the GM decides you should be fine. Personally I always hate charters suddenly getting new feats or skills with no logical way of obtaining them. It could be a fun bit of roleplaying finding the trainer and proving you are worthy.
Tzor 08-19-03, 11:04 AM	One way to look at the various attributes is not to look at the dictionary definitions but in the role the attributes play within the game. A sinple way to look at Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma is IPO - Input, Process and Output Simply put Wisdom, the attribute, is your awareness of the world around you. It's input ... of a sort. Intelligence, is your ability to process that information, to recall details which are revelant to that information, and to format that information into a reasonable action. It's process. Finally, Charisma is the ability to take those actions and influence the world around you. The whole world, from your ally, to your enemy, to your horse, to the bear that just wandered into camp. In your case you are exceptionally observant. Your knowedge can process many important facts based on your observations. You can formulate reasonable plans of action. Unfortunately, you are a tad below the norm in trying to get other people to do those plans. A medieval equivalent of a geek ... personality wise. Note that while "wisdom" the real world thing, often requires a high "wisdom" as an attribute, a high wisdom score does not make one wise. Now for the paladin. Einstien was never a general. General principles of warfare tend to be passed down from general to general, and taught. Basic formations evolved over long periods of time, mostly by trial and error, and were passed down. So good strategy does not require an exceptionally high intelligence as much as it requires a good tutor. With a basically average wisdom and a basically average intelligence he should be able to plan your standard effective formations. Hopefully he will also have a few subordinates in his formaiton who can "spot" problems as they happen and relay the information to him in time.
Willie the Duck 08-19-03, 12:11 PM	strategy is a learned thing. It will take your slow paladin longer to pick it up (as putting a skill point into knowledge (warfare) every level is going to be a serious investment), but after a while, his intelligence will not be a major limiting factor (at higher levels, the attribut bonus pales compared to the skill level scores).
Israfel666 08-19-03, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by Maleous After reaching level 4 I have come to the realization that a High Wis TN charactaer is BORING. I mean I'm wise so I'm meant to have enough common-sense not to charge or do anything rash. I'm TN which further reinforces this. [...] But the high wis I just don't get. When I think of wise people I think of the Dalai Lama, meditating monks etc. These people sit around doing nothing and only speak if spoken to because "an empty veessel makes the most noise." I'll give you a different idea of wise people: the Jedi. Not that old green-skinned, swamp-dweller, reverse-speaking gnome-wannabe of Yoda, but Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi and that black guy in Attack of the Clones. None of them are meditating hermits (although they do reflect - they would not be wise if they didn't), but they are most definitely wise, i.e. they generally find out what is best to do. Or to return to a fantasy setting: Gandalf (and the other Wise) and most of the elven kings of the Elder Days (except for Feanor and Fingolfin, of course). Their way of acting is very indicative of their high wisdom - long times of pondering and patience, then, once they are confident of their choices... WHAM! They are spurred into motion and woe to those who stand in their path or slow their goals. The only solution I can think of is switching to CN and playing on the trickster aspects of Gnome heritage. Many people think that TN characters have no motivations to act in life. Very wrong. Exactly because they do not follow morals or ethics so tightly they are extremely focused and determined on what they want to accomplish. Give your character a driving goal - it can be destroying the abominations called cities, turning gnomes into creatures in complete harmony with nature, or smaller things like redeeming his family's honor or protecting a certain species of animal. You will find that TN is the "best" alignment for goal-focused characters. Also my other character is a human paladin who has stats; str 14, dex 12, con 14, wis 9, int 10, cha 14 [...] The problem(possibly) comes with the leadership feat. I want this guy to be a strategist at high levels. But how can I justify equiping 50+ guys with longspears and longbows and sticking them in a phalanx with only 10 int and 9 wis? You are making another mistake very common among D&D players: underexistimation. Int 10 is NOT a low Int, and Wis 9 is NOT an abysmal Wis. Your paladin is mentally a perfectly average guy, with just a slight lack of intuition and foresight which most people will not even notice. He will most likely never become a Julius Caesar or Napoleone (eng sp?), but he is able to understand basic tactical rules (and phalanx fighting in a medieval world is BASIC) as much as the next guy; if he invests skill points into Knowledge (battles) or the like, he can also become a pretty good general.
RaKhan 08-19-03, 10:35 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 You are making another mistake very common among D&D players: underexistimation. Int 10 is NOT a low Int, and Wis 9 is NOT an abysmal Wis. Your paladin is mentally a perfectly average guy, with just a slight lack of intuition and foresight which most people will not even notice. He will most likely never become a Julius Caesar or Napoleone (eng sp?), but he is able to understand basic tactical rules (and phalanx fighting in a medieval world is BASIC) as much as the next guy; if he invests skill points into Knowledge (battles) or the like, he can also become a pretty good general. It's not abysmal, but it's not good either. It's just the stat for Mr. Average, not Mr. Hero. If you want to play an intelligent hero, then you should increase your Int stat. To make it easier to understand, you can take your Int score and multiply by 10 to get your IQ score. So your character with an Int of 10 will have an IQ of 100, average for humans. There won't be any decent or ingenious plans coming from that character's brain on a regular basis (if you roleplay him correctly of course).
Maleous 08-19-03, 11:46 PM	Ohh GOD! I've gotten to fourth level and I just realised by Character is the epitomy of Yoda! He's 154 yo. Which is old for a gnome. (the penalties/bonuses weren't applied) He likes using flameblade and he's short, old, wise, weak and clumsy. Thanks for the Jedi image of wise though, I'll trty and keep that in mind when I think of wise. And I will spend points on proffesion(soldier) or Knowldege(war) for the paladin. I'm swapping 2 points from dex into wis anyway for the pal.
Israfel666 08-20-03, 05:57 AM	Originally posted by RaKhan It's not abysmal, but it's not good either. It's just the stat for Mr. Average, not Mr. Hero. If you want to play an intelligent hero, then you should increase your Int stat. To make it easier to understand, you can take your Int score and multiply by 10 to get your IQ score. So your character with an Int of 10 will have an IQ of 100, average for humans. There won't be any decent or ingenious plans coming from that character's brain on a regular basis (if you roleplay him correctly of course). Ingenious, no (only sporadically). Decent, yes. An average intelligence guy is supposed to be just that... average at intellectual jobs. He will come up with approximately the same number of bad ideas and good ideas. BTW, the formula Int*10=IQ is broken. It does not work for D&D, where an INT 4 character is playable (IQ 40 is pretty vegetable) and an INT 18 one happens once every 216 people (IQ 180 has never been measured, AFAIK). I've heard that guidline was designed for another RPG, which used different high and low limits.
Willie the Duck 08-20-03, 03:04 PM	Int x 10 = IQ comes from GURPS, where it is fairly reasonable (most everyone's INT score is 7-15). Int 180 is exceptional in the extreme, but has been measured with relative frequency. I can't see from this screen if you're an american, butifyou are you'll remember Ted Kaczinski (the Unibomber, an insane genious terrorist who was famous before the time of Al kida or the oklahoma city bombers). He had an IQ of 174. The world record was 238 (although it was never replicated andthe same individual later tested in the 210-220 range). So there are probably 100 people alive today that have a 180 IQ (note that IQ doesn't really mean you're going to have an exceptional life). You're character is never going to be Alexander the Great, but if you keep uping his skill, at higher levels it will be reasonable for him to be a general.