Turn and face my righteous wrath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Turn and face my righteous wrath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adolph_Kheebler
01-17-07, 10:13 AM I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny.

A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath."

Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies.

Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies.

I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny.
hoosierhayeslpe
01-17-07, 11:34 AM I will go along with options 1-4, but I think option 5 is a stretch.

Wow, now I have to play a low intelligence paladin!
irishwerewolf5
01-17-07, 12:20 PM Only hole in the reasoning is that almost all Lawful Good characters (which with a paladin i am assuming is the case) are not predisposed to start a fight. first of all they would have to genuinely try to solve the situation peacefully. After that.....with no other options available to them......they MAY need to solve it forcefully. If a DM is thinking correctly....he would be well within his rights to strip you of your divine power as punishment for straying from your path. Being overly aggresive and looking for a fight....not lawful good. That sort of thing is more akin to a chaotic neutral and so on character. Even wiith a neutral deity youd still be wavering on the side of good before evil....and bullying is most assuredly an evil act.

irish
M.E. Charm
01-17-07, 03:27 PM Seriously. Its not like the Deities are some computerprograms with loopholes. They'll notice what youre doing, sigh with disappointed "I cant believe I gave him those powers..", and punish you.
And if your DM doesnt care about that, you have nothing to worry about to begin with.
Radijs
01-17-07, 08:30 PM Fiiiieeeeeeeuuuuwwwww *SPELUNK!*
And thats why they call it spelunking.

This is a definate ticket to the atonement queue if you ask me.

Declaring your wrath as righteous doesn't make it so.

Lets conduct a thought experiment.

A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath."

Person 1 turns around wondering who is talking to him. Paladin smites him.
Person 2 sees the spontaneous murder and freezes with fear. Ex-paladin smites him.
Person 3 sees the brutal double homicide and runs to fetch the guards. Ex-paladin smites him too.
Person 4 seeing that he can't run does what every cornered animal would do. He defends himself. Ex-Paladin smites him.
Person 5 desperately pleas for his life and mercy. Not wanting to be impeded in his duties the Ex-paladin smites him.

I don't think that these 5 farmers agree with your philosophy Kore (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20060401.html).
Adolph_Kheebler
01-18-07, 01:23 AM Lawful Good is by no means peaceful. At all. Remember that alignment is partly how you consider your actions. This would be really fun with a low int paladin who started slightly confused to begin with. He is not seeking a fight, but genuinely convinced that that is what his deity wants. He is seeking out the evil doers and smiting them when he finds them. His methods are a bit strange but he genuinely believes them to be the right path. Besides, anyone telling him not to is clearly trying to stop him smiting evil doers, is thus evil, and dies.
Radijs
01-18-07, 08:34 AM Alignment is not how YOU consider your actions, at least not in DnD. Alignment is how the universe considers your actions.
You might believe with all your heart that Asmodeus is good and that slaughtering everyone you meet in his name is a good thing. It will still mean you're evil.
Replace Asmodeus with any other deity won't change the fact that those innocent farmers never did anything bad and weren't in fact bad.
Because you use such simple (and inaccurate) criteria to determine if people are good or bad you invariably percieve everyone as bad and smite them. But in fact the only one who is bad, is you.
irishwerewolf5
01-18-07, 11:35 AM You STILL arent taking into account how your god is going to react to your actions. While you may find your actions justifiable, any DM with a brain is going to measure that against your gods sense of justice and BAM no more smite....hello there mr fighter with a chip on your shoulder. You cant just go around acting like a psychopath expecting your god to just sit back and enjoy (unless you worship llolth...in which case you arent a paladin) the carnage that ensues. it simply makes no sense. Lawful good characters will not kill unnecessarily....its not in their nature. why do you think so many people shy away from that particular allignment? Almost all of my games have chaotic good or neutral characters. There is a lot more to take into account as a lawful good character than you seem to acknowledge. Also to state that maybe the lawful good character has a flaw and or screw loose that pushes him toward this behavior would still constitute an alignment shift...sorry.....but lawful good characters arent crazy. David Koresh for example (in the real world) may have thought he was doing good....but all around him (including his god) knew better than to think that he was. in a sense he thought he was lawful good but in reality he was more akin to lawful neutral or evil. ( i know its a stretch...but i think i get the point across)

irish
Behaigo
01-18-07, 12:22 PM If you realy want to do this I suggest you pick up a copy of Unearthed Arcana and use the Paladin of Slaughter variant that is in it.
Stormbrand
01-19-07, 11:21 PM Lawful Good is by no means peaceful. At all. Remember that alignment is partly how you consider your actions. This would be really fun with a low int paladin who started slightly confused to begin with. He is not seeking a fight, but genuinely convinced that that is what his deity wants. He is seeking out the evil doers and smiting them when he finds them. His methods are a bit strange but he genuinely believes them to be the right path. Besides, anyone telling him not to is clearly trying to stop him smiting evil doers, is thus evil, and dies.

Lawful Good is by no means arbitrary. At all. Remember alignment is primarily your actions made upon the information you are given. He is seeking a fight, as demonstrated by his use of this "trick." He is not seeking out evildoers, he is seeking victims. His methods are evil and no amount of hypocrisy will change that. Besides, anyone doing this is best dealt with using force and not pleasantries, and thus your evildoer himself dies.

I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny.

A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath."

Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies.

Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies.

I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny.

1st all, no evidence for said wrath being righteous.

2nd, this dishonourable trick has a target - so each instance is premeditated on a specific person. In effect, it presumes guilt and thus there must be grounds for punishment BEFORE this "trick" is employed.

3rd, the very fact that there is no way to demonstrate innocence spits in the face of Law and Good.

4th, the very act of searching for a loophole in the Paladin Code signifies non-lawful alignment.

5th, in none of these cases do you actually supply evidence for them being evil. Facing "righteous wrath" does not make one evil, nor does running from it, nor does fearing it, nor does obstructing it.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - killing someone out of "righteous wrath" is murder on the grounds that it is killing for personal reasons. Wrath is merely another word for anger, and paladins do not have the luxury for killing out of there own anger.

For Lawful Good, personal is not the same as important. Morality is not defined by desire. Being angry does not make a death justified.
Adolph_Kheebler
01-20-07, 03:04 AM You are right on most of those. However searching for loopholes is not non-lawful. Lawful people are all about following the letter of the law. A chaotic act would be just ignoring it outright.

This isn't used by a paladin to search out and kill random people. Nor is it used by a paladin of slaughter. I see this as very fun to use on a low int and quite confused paladin. If such a paladin could be found, it would be quite fun for an evil guy to trick him into doing things like this without actually violating his code.

Scenario: BBEG has convinced paladin that target number one has done something evil and that his reaction when confronted would reveal his guilt. Palading goes, uses phrase and slaughters. BBEG uses maniacal laughter and gloats to taste.
Radijs
01-20-07, 07:21 AM He'll still fall from grace, hitting every branch on the way down to the jagged rocks of sin below.
irishwerewolf5
01-20-07, 07:42 PM Hed then bleed to death without the use of his abilities to heal. :weep:

sorry guys Radj and I could tear this idea apart six ways from sunday. Were just letting you know that this eventually comes down to your DM.....but most....if not darn near all....DMs will strip him of his power.

Irish
Stormbrand
01-20-07, 07:57 PM You are right on most of those. However searching for loopholes is not non-lawful. Lawful people are all about following the letter of the law. A chaotic act would be just ignoring it outright.

Still, 1, 2, 3 & 5 all prohibit him from having ever been worthy of paladinhood to begin with, also read the MOST IMPORTANT bit - about it being killing for personal reasons.

Lawful characters are for respecting their law and code, I would believe the Paladin Code counts as "legitimate authority" so the search for loopholes in the Code is in itself a breach of the Code.
Adolph_Kheebler
01-21-07, 01:56 AM That is the good part though, not the lawful part. The lawful part makes him adhere to the letter of the laws and the good part makes him adhere to the spirit as well. That is why devils are so much more dangerous than demons in rp situations. They will do exactly what they say, and not one letter more. Lawful.

However you are all right. This doesn't really work. I wouldn't use it anyway. I just thought it was a bit fun to try.
Try
01-25-07, 02:40 AM I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny.

A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath."

Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies.

Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies.

Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies.

I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny.

If I were this guy's DM, I'd not be OK with any of those options being used as an excuse to kill people. But I wouldn't necessarily inform the player that it was cheating, because from such self-justifications LE Blackguards are made!

Mind, if the player was a newbie to DnD, I would tell him that Paladins don't make excuses, and finding excuses to kill unnecessarily leads to evil very quickly.
CrimsonEric
01-25-07, 03:33 AM Uhm. If you want to play The Tick, play a CN character who thinks of himself as LG.

I mean, really. Say my roommate was a cop. Just because I got a uniform and borrowed his badge doesn't mean I could make arrests. Thinking you're righteous and being righteous aren't the same thing.

Besides.

Paladins have this handy thing called Detect Evil. No god would let you get away with assuming that a dude was evil when he ran from your crazy ass when you can know for sure in a few seconds and THEN act accordingly.

There's a really good 'how to play a paladin' thread around here somewhere. I think you should go peruse it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adolph_Kheebler 01-17-07, 10:13 AM	I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny. A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath." Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies. Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies. I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny.
hoosierhayeslpe 01-17-07, 11:34 AM	I will go along with options 1-4, but I think option 5 is a stretch. Wow, now I have to play a low intelligence paladin!
irishwerewolf5 01-17-07, 12:20 PM	Only hole in the reasoning is that almost all Lawful Good characters (which with a paladin i am assuming is the case) are not predisposed to start a fight. first of all they would have to genuinely try to solve the situation peacefully. After that.....with no other options available to them......they MAY need to solve it forcefully. If a DM is thinking correctly....he would be well within his rights to strip you of your divine power as punishment for straying from your path. Being overly aggresive and looking for a fight....not lawful good. That sort of thing is more akin to a chaotic neutral and so on character. Even wiith a neutral deity youd still be wavering on the side of good before evil....and bullying is most assuredly an evil act. irish
M.E. Charm 01-17-07, 03:27 PM	Seriously. Its not like the Deities are some computerprograms with loopholes. They'll notice what youre doing, sigh with disappointed "I cant believe I gave him those powers..", and punish you. And if your DM doesnt care about that, you have nothing to worry about to begin with.
Radijs 01-17-07, 08:30 PM	Fiiiieeeeeeeuuuuwwwww SPELUNK! And thats why they call it spelunking. This is a definate ticket to the atonement queue if you ask me. Declaring your wrath as righteous doesn't make it so. Lets conduct a thought experiment. A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath." Person 1 turns around wondering who is talking to him. Paladin smites him. Person 2 sees the spontaneous murder and freezes with fear. Ex-paladin smites him. Person 3 sees the brutal double homicide and runs to fetch the guards. Ex-paladin smites him too. Person 4 seeing that he can't run does what every cornered animal would do. He defends himself. Ex-Paladin smites him. Person 5 desperately pleas for his life and mercy. Not wanting to be impeded in his duties the Ex-paladin smites him. I don't think that these 5 farmers agree with your philosophy Kore (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20060401.html).
Adolph_Kheebler 01-18-07, 01:23 AM	Lawful Good is by no means peaceful. At all. Remember that alignment is partly how you consider your actions. This would be really fun with a low int paladin who started slightly confused to begin with. He is not seeking a fight, but genuinely convinced that that is what his deity wants. He is seeking out the evil doers and smiting them when he finds them. His methods are a bit strange but he genuinely believes them to be the right path. Besides, anyone telling him not to is clearly trying to stop him smiting evil doers, is thus evil, and dies.
Radijs 01-18-07, 08:34 AM	Alignment is not how YOU consider your actions, at least not in DnD. Alignment is how the universe considers your actions. You might believe with all your heart that Asmodeus is good and that slaughtering everyone you meet in his name is a good thing. It will still mean you're evil. Replace Asmodeus with any other deity won't change the fact that those innocent farmers never did anything bad and weren't in fact bad. Because you use such simple (and inaccurate) criteria to determine if people are good or bad you invariably percieve everyone as bad and smite them. But in fact the only one who is bad, is you.
irishwerewolf5 01-18-07, 11:35 AM	You STILL arent taking into account how your god is going to react to your actions. While you may find your actions justifiable, any DM with a brain is going to measure that against your gods sense of justice and BAM no more smite....hello there mr fighter with a chip on your shoulder. You cant just go around acting like a psychopath expecting your god to just sit back and enjoy (unless you worship llolth...in which case you arent a paladin) the carnage that ensues. it simply makes no sense. Lawful good characters will not kill unnecessarily....its not in their nature. why do you think so many people shy away from that particular allignment? Almost all of my games have chaotic good or neutral characters. There is a lot more to take into account as a lawful good character than you seem to acknowledge. Also to state that maybe the lawful good character has a flaw and or screw loose that pushes him toward this behavior would still constitute an alignment shift...sorry.....but lawful good characters arent crazy. David Koresh for example (in the real world) may have thought he was doing good....but all around him (including his god) knew better than to think that he was. in a sense he thought he was lawful good but in reality he was more akin to lawful neutral or evil. ( i know its a stretch...but i think i get the point across) irish
Behaigo 01-18-07, 12:22 PM	If you realy want to do this I suggest you pick up a copy of Unearthed Arcana and use the Paladin of Slaughter variant that is in it.
Stormbrand 01-19-07, 11:21 PM	Lawful Good is by no means peaceful. At all. Remember that alignment is partly how you consider your actions. This would be really fun with a low int paladin who started slightly confused to begin with. He is not seeking a fight, but genuinely convinced that that is what his deity wants. He is seeking out the evil doers and smiting them when he finds them. His methods are a bit strange but he genuinely believes them to be the right path. Besides, anyone telling him not to is clearly trying to stop him smiting evil doers, is thus evil, and dies. Lawful Good is by no means arbitrary. At all. Remember alignment is primarily your actions made upon the information you are given. He is seeking a fight, as demonstrated by his use of this "trick." He is not seeking out evildoers, he is seeking victims. His methods are evil and no amount of hypocrisy will change that. Besides, anyone doing this is best dealt with using force and not pleasantries, and thus your evildoer himself dies. I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny. A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath." Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies. Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies. I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny. 1st all, no evidence for said wrath being righteous. 2nd, this dishonourable trick has a target - so each instance is premeditated on a specific person. In effect, it presumes guilt and thus there must be grounds for punishment BEFORE this "trick" is employed. 3rd, the very fact that there is no way to demonstrate innocence spits in the face of Law and Good. 4th, the very act of searching for a loophole in the Paladin Code signifies non-lawful alignment. 5th, in none of these cases do you actually supply evidence for them being evil. Facing "righteous wrath" does not make one evil, nor does running from it, nor does fearing it, nor does obstructing it. MOST IMPORTANTLY - killing someone out of "righteous wrath" is murder on the grounds that it is killing for personal reasons. Wrath is merely another word for anger, and paladins do not have the luxury for killing out of there own anger. For Lawful Good, personal is not the same as important. Morality is not defined by desire. Being angry does not make a death justified.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-20-07, 03:04 AM	You are right on most of those. However searching for loopholes is not non-lawful. Lawful people are all about following the letter of the law. A chaotic act would be just ignoring it outright. This isn't used by a paladin to search out and kill random people. Nor is it used by a paladin of slaughter. I see this as very fun to use on a low int and quite confused paladin. If such a paladin could be found, it would be quite fun for an evil guy to trick him into doing things like this without actually violating his code. Scenario: BBEG has convinced paladin that target number one has done something evil and that his reaction when confronted would reveal his guilt. Palading goes, uses phrase and slaughters. BBEG uses maniacal laughter and gloats to taste.
Radijs 01-20-07, 07:21 AM	He'll still fall from grace, hitting every branch on the way down to the jagged rocks of sin below.
irishwerewolf5 01-20-07, 07:42 PM	Hed then bleed to death without the use of his abilities to heal. :weep: sorry guys Radj and I could tear this idea apart six ways from sunday. Were just letting you know that this eventually comes down to your DM.....but most....if not darn near all....DMs will strip him of his power. Irish
Stormbrand 01-20-07, 07:57 PM	You are right on most of those. However searching for loopholes is not non-lawful. Lawful people are all about following the letter of the law. A chaotic act would be just ignoring it outright. Still, 1, 2, 3 & 5 all prohibit him from having ever been worthy of paladinhood to begin with, also read the MOST IMPORTANT bit - about it being killing for personal reasons. Lawful characters are for respecting their law and code, I would believe the Paladin Code counts as "legitimate authority" so the search for loopholes in the Code is in itself a breach of the Code.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-21-07, 01:56 AM	That is the good part though, not the lawful part. The lawful part makes him adhere to the letter of the laws and the good part makes him adhere to the spirit as well. That is why devils are so much more dangerous than demons in rp situations. They will do exactly what they say, and not one letter more. Lawful. However you are all right. This doesn't really work. I wouldn't use it anyway. I just thought it was a bit fun to try.
Try 01-25-07, 02:40 AM	I got this idea from a person in my group. He said that any Paladin can get around his code and kill whoever he wants with this little trick. I wanted to submit it for board scrutiny. A paladin approaches someone from behind and shouts, "Turn and face my righteous wrath." Option 1: Guy turns around. He is obviously facing your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 2: Guy freezes. He is obviously afraid of your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 3: Guy runs. He is running from your righteous wrath and thus evil. He dies. Option 4: He attacks you. He is attacking an agent of justice in his righteous wrath. He is obviously evil and dies. Option 5: He tries to talk to you and convince you otherwise. He is hindering you in the execution of your duty and thus evil. He dies. I have yet to see a path of action that doesn't involve the paladin thinking you are evil and thus need to die. I hereby submit it for board scrutiny. If I were this guy's DM, I'd not be OK with any of those options being used as an excuse to kill people. But I wouldn't necessarily inform the player that it was cheating, because from such self-justifications LE Blackguards are made! Mind, if the player was a newbie to DnD, I would tell him that Paladins don't make excuses, and finding excuses to kill unnecessarily leads to evil very quickly.
CrimsonEric 01-25-07, 03:33 AM	Uhm. If you want to play The Tick, play a CN character who thinks of himself as LG. I mean, really. Say my roommate was a cop. Just because I got a uniform and borrowed his badge doesn't mean I could make arrests. Thinking you're righteous and being righteous aren't the same thing. Besides. Paladins have this handy thing called Detect Evil. No god would let you get away with assuming that a dude was evil when he ran from your crazy ass when you can know for sure in a few seconds and THEN act accordingly. There's a really good 'how to play a paladin' thread around here somewhere. I think you should go peruse it.