Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Althor Enchantor 07-03-05, 11:56 AM	I have a couple of stories to tell about players who followed certain alignments without falling into either the typical stereotypes (e.g. "Lawful Stoopid" Paladins) or the more powergamish stereotypes (e.g. Paladins "who eat babies and murder poor people because cannibalism is okay where I come from and by killing a few hobos, the other beggars have something to eat). Example one: LV (Lawful Vengeful) -I got this idea from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, where it lists a certain LN demigod as having the portfolios of revenge and poetic justice. Basically, rather than obsessing endlessly over Law and justice through the court systems, the character is instead obsessed with murdering a certain individual or type of individual who has committed some grave offense against the character or his or her moral code. Example two: CH (Chaotic Honorable) -Again, this is inspired by the CN Faerunian god of war, where I believe it is stated somewhere that he follows and enforces a very strict personal code of honor not all that unlike the traditional japanese code of Bushido as it applies to actual combat: fight fair (no poisons, fighting dirty, or causing wasteful or needless destruction or cruelty), fight to the death, and respect your enemy where respect is due, even as your blade pierces his lung. Examples three & four: GE (Goodful Evil) -Both of these examples revolve around having a character consistently perform good deeds for all the wrong reasons. The first is essentially based on one of the more popular aspects of being Good: killing Evil things. So let's say, for example, that we have an evil character that loves killing and maiming people. As much as he might want to kill everyone he meets, it's fairly easy to realize that many authority figures will look the other way if members of a local thieves' guild or necromantic cult are horrifically murdered in their sleep. Alternatively, there's also the so-called "Evil hates competition" way of justifying this, either in the sense of "I won't let you take over the world!" "Why?" "Because *I* wanted to take over the world!", or the slightly tamer "No one robs this village blind except *ME*!". Of course, there's always the "closet-case" type of villain, where certain horrifically evil deeds don't register with the character as being morally wrong unless someone else does it (e.g. the character sees a woman being raped in an allyway, and immediately attacks and kills the rapist in order to rescue the woman, but then, while she's in the middle of offering her heartfelt thanks, he notices that her clothing has already been ripped off, and thinks, "Well, I've never been one to let a good opportunity go to waste...", and then simply proceeds to pick up where the first rapist left off). -The other case of an evil character doing good deeds that I've heard of was a fairly unique case involving a LG character and a set of demon-possessed major artifact equipment. If I recall correctly, the equipment could not be removed unless some incredibly difficult and specific conditions were met, and there were some permanent curses that were applied cumulatively and daily to anyone who wore them that was not Chaotic Evil. Eventually, the LG character gave up and switched alignment, but despite being the same alignment as the demons were, he still utterly despised them for their curses and for forcing him to change his way of life. As a result, he would often perform genuinely good deeds for the sole purpose of ******* off and spiting the demons who lived in his armor. For example, the character would come across a general goods store. The demons in his armor urged him to rob the store and burn it to the ground. Instead, he would spend a hundred or so GP on candy and let the shopkeeper keep the change. Then he would come across a bunch of small children. The demons told him to murder the children and built a toy fortress out of their bones. Again, just to **** the demons off, he instead did a good deed and gave the children all of his candy. And so on. Edit: Wow. Tough profanity filter. I had no idea it filtered out half the phrase when you tried to say that something "P.O.'d" you...
Nuntius128 07-06-05, 09:28 AM	Well, for the cannibalism, I think you misunderstand the concept of alignment. Lawful, for example, isn't just saying "I abide by every law in the region I'm in." Alignment is a very broad term, reaching out to everyone. The Neutral Evil Cleric might see himself as saving the world by doing whatever, and see his actions as for the greater good, but he's still evil, because alignment is a description of actions, not a limitation. You can say "But erating babies is perfectly acceptable where I'm from" but its still an evil act, regardless of what the townsfolk think, because its more than what society accepts.
AngryNinja 07-06-05, 03:21 PM	A fellow player of mine has so butchered Lawful Good we now call it Loydful Good. When entering a city his first question is what is it's alignment, meaning the power centers. If it's any kind of evil, he tries to burn it to the ground. Destroy the whole town, very few of our DMs alow him to get away with this but one was bad enough to he he, good times.
blooddemon 07-07-05, 11:22 AM	I had this one arcane trickster character that was CE. He never really was obsessed with killing and so forth. What he DID do was break into a wizard's house and steal his spellbooks which the DM wasn't really smart about with the whole MY ONLY WAY TO CAST SPELLS SO THERE IS NO WAY I AM GOING TO PROTECT THIS type situation. The trickster was obsessed with being the most powerful spellcaster in the world so that is what he would do. He only killed a few to get along on his path to greatness. So you don't have to go around killing everyone to be Chaotic Evil
jameswilliamogle 07-08-05, 11:57 AM	hi, guys, long time lurker first time threader, was wondering how you guys would justify/explain the following two alignment situations: 1. what is the reasoning behind a LN Rogue who still steals things on occasion? what would the general outlook on society be? 2. how would you play off a wizard that was totally detached from humanity, not physically, but mentally, as far as alignment goes (just think of all the people you know that would be perfectly comfortable being a brain in a box, or someone who would rather be with a good book than with good company)? The indie documentary film "Crumb" about the comic artist Robert Crumb has a good example of this. i'm thinking they might regard other beings as one might regard a machine, or even themselves. the last character i played, i wanted to be a LN rogue, but the dm said "no" bc it "didnt make sense" (which i felt was bogus, but whatever), and the 2nd i think would just be interesting to play, assuming i didnt conflict alignments with the party too poorly
Uberwoot 07-08-05, 12:23 PM	A LN rogue is not only very possible, but maeks a lot of sense in some circumstances. Keep in mind that a 3rd or 3.5 edition rogue is not the thief of 2nd edition- he is very versatile, and with good selection of class skills (and a little bit of intelligence) can do almost anything he chooses. Your DM was thinking correctly in at least one respect: a LN rogue wouldn't just steal from people on the street; however, it is possible to make your personality or playstyle fit the alignment. A LN rogue could very well be a private investigator of sorts, using his skills to solve crimes or recover stolen goods. He bends the law a little, but it's all in the name of REAL order, because you're keeping those lawless people in their place- jail. A LN rogue could possibly respect property rights for civilized society, but reason that anything that is not owned by the living (the treasure to be found in many dungeons) is certainly not personal property and can be rightfully acquired- and in fact, should be, because the additional wealth would help society as a whole. A LN rogue could just have a very strong code of conduct and sense of personal honor (just like any other character of that alignment), without moral compulsions of right from wrong- to him, "right" means adhering to his code of conduct. He won't steal from anyone who has honor- who follows his station in life, who abides by the law, and such, but anyone who has no honor- killers, corrupt nobles, or monsters- has no "right" to their property. There are a lot of options, and just reading the description of the LN alignment in the PHB can give you a lot of ideas. Cheers.
jameswilliamogle 07-08-05, 01:08 PM	i guess to me it seems like the LN rogue who discriminates in his victims is what you're saying. i was thinking along the lines of lawful as being more or less "for the status quo", i.e. rich people have guards, and thus to justify the guards employment, i should rip the place off: the rich feel justified that the guard expenditure was worth the gold, the guards have continued employment, and i took some risk in order to put some gold in my pocket and kept everyone happy (if the victim is corrupt, even better). career criminals probably think along those lines, but instead of guards it's insurance they're after. for me, i like to think of alignments in terms of politics (lawful-conservative, for the status quo, against change, "we need to protect the people from themselves", more disciplined (ala monk), more organized; chaotic-for change, liberal, more for socialism, "the masses should be in charge", more spur of the moment decisions, more messy; good-welfare of others is important, evil-my needs come first). this seems to be a more universal definition that works in more situations. im not trying to make this a political debate, and im true neutral by these definitions, and am apolitical myself, but i never did understand the whole "im lawful therefore i obey all laws (of my homeland? of where im at currently? of some moral code?)" thing: it seems to subjective (like the example above with the paladin killing babies). even with the game definitions of alignment, if my thief was raised knowing nothing other than how to steal, he may still rip off everyone he comes across 'cause "that's what i know", but still may feel remorse about it, and may even tithe or donate some portion of his stolen goods for repentance (although he isn't required to). my whole point is that alignment should be a roleplaying tool, not a restriction. i wanted to play a rogue for a few levels and then switch to a monk, which i find a more interesting class, but we still needed a rogue for a few levels (until we could get detect trap spells, etc) but i didnt want to restric myself on thieving, so i settled on neutral and have a pretty boring character compared to the rest of the group.
Worguron 07-11-05, 05:16 PM	A LN thief (which normally means Rogue) would fit perfectly into a Thieves Guild. For anyone who has read much Raymond E. Feist, think about the Mockers in Krondor. Very LN.