Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KenSolo 08-30-07, 08:02 PM	I want to use these iconic Magic: the Gathering brothers for my D&D game. They rule over a land in the campaign world, and are having a falling out. Their disagreement has turned into a civil war, tearing their lands apart. While it is easy to include cities like Benal (and include it's heroes), and the Erg hills, I have no idea how to best represent the Brothers in D&D stat form. Making them both 18th level wizards (or even 30th level wizards) seems kind of mundane. I want to do somthing that captures the flavor of Magic. So I am soliciting suggestions. Can some one write up their version of Mishra and Urza and post it here? I am sure from all the great minds out there, some great ideas will emerge. I can't hardly wait!!:D
CrimsonDeath 08-30-07, 09:04 PM	If I were to make Urza and Mishra in my own games, I would make them Artificers (Eberron Campaign Setting). I mean, what do the Brothers do? They examine, build, modify, overhaul, and operate magical devices. That's precisely what an Artificer does. It's precisely what an Artificer is designed to do. And he does it better than anyone else. I don't currently have the energy to stat out a 20-level build right now, but if you search the CharOp board's thread titles for "Artificer", that ought to be a good place to start. The Artificer gets most of the core crafting feats as bonus feats, so just slap Craft Construct on there somewhere and give them healthy scores in UMD, Disable Device, and a few Craft skills, and you ought to be good to go. By the way, have you statted out the Mightstone and Weakstone?
Terjon of the Blue Rose 08-31-07, 01:26 AM	I second artificer. If you want something a little fancier consider some of the prestige classes from manual of the planes. I'd tack them on after a full 20 if you really want to go that route though.
KenSolo 09-01-07, 08:50 PM	[QUOTE=By the way, have you statted out the Mightstone and Weakstone?[/QUOTE] I'm afraid I don't even know what these are.
CrimsonDeath 09-01-07, 11:51 PM	In the Cavern of Koilos, the Brothers found a nonfunctional portal to Phyrexia. On a pedestal nearby, they found a pair of stones-- the broken halves of a relatively large Thran Power Stone. Each took one (unwittingly disrupting the mechanism that kept the portal sealed shut), and those stones became the symbols of the Brothers' power. Urza's was the Mightstone (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=mightstone), which he could use to enhance the physical strength of nearby constructs. Mishra's was the Weakstone (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=weakstone), which he could use to diminish the strength of nearby constructs. After the activation of the Sylex (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=golgothian_sylex) (which destroyed Argoth) and Urza's Ascension as a Planeswalker, Urza used the Mightstone and Weakstone to replace his eyes. The stones retain much of their significance for Urza's entire lifetime as a Planeswalker. Not that you have to use them if your campaign is going to be diverging significantly from the official story of the Brothers' War.
KenSolo 09-07-07, 02:40 PM	I don't know what the offical history of the Brothers' War is, but I like the concept, and many of my D&D palyers are also Magic players. (One would think, that with the release of Everquest: the d20 roleplaying supliment, and World of Waracraft: the d20 roleplaying suppliment, Legends of the Five Rings: the d20 roleplaying supliment, and four other D&D campaign worlds, AND given that Wizards does not even have to ask for license rights, a Magic:the gathering: the d20 roleplaying supliment would have been out years ago. Perhaps they are waiting for 4th edition) I see Mishra and Urza as being some type of wizard/Artificers who ruled a kingdom jointly, and had a falling out. Or their father ruled, and the two went to war over sucession to the throne. During the war, they unleashed all sorts of magical effects, and eventually took their war to other planes of exisistance. So, now I am asking those knowledgable in such things, What would thier skills and powers be? What makes Urza different from Mishra? I get the impression that neither one is Good, moral Alignment wise. I thought about just coming up with D&D abilities for a bunch of Magic cards, and sitting with deck behind my DM screen. Everytime it became Urza's turn in battle, I'd draw a card from the deck to see what his options are. I might have a hand with a Fireaball, an Urg Raider, an Atog, a Healing Salve, and a Scrib Sprite, then I choose one or two to 'cast' eash turn. The fireball is just that - a 10d6 fireball, save for half. The monsters would work just like a Monster Summoning spell in D&D. Has any one else already converted Magic the Gatering elements to his/her D&D game? thanks
CrimsonDeath 09-07-07, 09:37 PM	Official history: Urza and Mishra, as I recall, were born almost a year apart, Urza on the first day of the year and Mishra on the last day of the same year. As young men, they were apprenticed to an Argivan archaeologist named Tocasia. She taught them the basics of artifice, much of which she learned from Thran artifacts. One day, as they were in the ruins Koilos (formerly the Thran city of Halcyon), they found the Mightstone and Weakstone (as described above). Shortly afterward, they had a falling out. Urza moved to Kroog as a clockmaker's apprentice and, after building a construct to perform a challenge of strength set forth by the king, wound up marrying Princess Kayla bin-Kroog. This led to his becoming the Lord High Artificer, and eventually the Minister of War. Mishra, meanwhile, wound up a Fallaji slave, although he also attained a position of power after demonstrating his skill in artifice. I forget why, exactly, the Argivans and Fallaji were at war-- I think it started with the Fallaji raiding Argivan border settlements, and then after Mishra found out Urza was on the other side, the war sort of snowballed. Anyway, in the end, the two armies landed on the island of Argoth, stripped its natural resources to the bedrock, and then were destroyed when the Sylex went off. Of course, your versions can have a completely different back story. Anyway, Mishra never actually used spells, and Urza didn't use any spells until after he Ascended to Planeswalker status. Mishra mostly used artifact weapons (some of which would probably be best represented by rods or staves), and Urza mostly used constructs (golems, for example).
KenSolo 10-05-07, 01:09 PM	Many thanks to Crimson Death and Terjion Blue Rose for their insight and knowledge. I am dispointed the D&D community did not take up the challenge of creating these two icons of fantasy gaming. In other game forums I have visited, sugesting a character that has never been created before incites a flury of posts of stats. Then every one gleefully debates why they think parts better represent the source material. Oh, well. I was hoping to spark an intersting converesation as well as solve my NPC delima. Thanks again to those who helped.
CrimsonDeath 10-05-07, 01:43 PM	Many thanks to Crimson Death and Terjion Blue Rose for their insight and knowledge. I am dispointed the D&D community did not take up the challenge of creating these two icons of fantasy gaming. In other game forums I have visited, sugesting a character that has never been created before incites a flury of posts of stats. Then every one gleefully debates why they think parts better represent the source material. Oh, well. I was hoping to spark an intersting converesation as well as solve my NPC delima. Thanks again to those who helped. Around here, you'd be more likely to get that result if you posted a build to begin with. You'd most likely get people suggesting improvements. Especially if you try it on the Character Optimization board, or this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=424838) on the Theoretical Optimization board.
Infinitive 10-05-07, 06:00 PM	KenSolo, I've read these books repeatedly, and could probably help you out some. Here's the core questions for you: At what point in the storyline do you want these stats from? Urza and mishra are very, very different at different points in the story. For example, by the end of the book, Mishra has turned himself into a construct, and this would have to be a part of the build (by this point, he's using Ashnod for much of his R&D). Give me an idea of whereabouts you're thinking, and I'll see if I can do anything for you. Early life (still training under Tocasia) Separation (Urza the clockmaker/Mishra the slave) Rise to power (Urza courts Kayla Bin-Kroog/ Mishra recruits Ashnod) Ruling Phase (Urza replaces the old warlord/Mishra unites the Fallaji) After the fall of Kroog (Urza unites most of civilized Dominaria/ Mishra is courted by the archdemon Gix) At the Apocalypse (Urza shortly pre-ascention/ Mishra the machine) Are the rough stages I can imagine.
Qube 10-06-07, 03:19 PM	IMO ... at Apocalypse Planewalker (in my oppinion): - Incorporeal template (since planewalkers 'exist' only because they will it so) - Greater teleport at will - Planeshift at will Urza would be a - Planewalker (augmanted human) - artificier 20 wizard 20 Mishra would be a - Divine rank 0 - artificier 20 cleric 20( domains: creation/ artifice) Yaggmoth would be - rogue 20 outsider 20 Divine rank 6 Barron - human - wizard 30 archmage 5 Freyalise - Planewalker (augmanted elf) - Druid 40 Titania / Multani - creature type: Plant - Driud 35 Gerard (capt. of the weatherlight, initiate in marro sorcery) - Human (augmented (LA+1, all stats +2)) - swashbucker 18 Druid 1 Karn - stats of adamantine golem (but large instead of huge, silver instead of adamantine) - living construct template Squee - goblin - rogue 20 ... oh, my favorite: Lord Windgrace - Planewalker (augmanted catfolk) - Fighter 10 Sorcerer 5 Eldritch Knight 10 Legendary Dreadnought 15
CrimsonDeath 10-06-07, 08:39 PM	Planewalker (in my oppinion): - Incorporeal template (since planewalkers 'exist' only because they will it so) - Greater teleport at will - Planeshift at will I don't see why you're making them incorporeal. They're generally solid unless they choose otherwise. And honestly, they're just too powerful to encompass within game statistics. There's a reason there aren't any cards of Planeswalkers. If you insist on statting them out, turning them into deities seems like a perfectly viable solution to me. Several Planeswalkers styled themselves as gods, after all-- Freylaise and Serra, for example. Urza would be a - Planewalker (augmanted human) - artificier 20 wizard 20 Not sure there's a reason for the Wizard levels. Mishra would be a - Divine rank 0 - artificier 20 cleric 20( domains: creation/ artifice) I know I missed the Invasion cycle of novels, but I didn't think Mishra was much more powerful than a Phyrexian demon. Why the Divine Rank? Also, why the Cleric levels? Yaggmoth would be - rogue 20 outsider 20 Divine rank 6 In The Thran, Yawgmoth struck me as an Expert, with ranks in Heal, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device. Maybe a few Fighter levels for martial weapon proficiency and to shore up his BAB, and possibly some Human Paragon. After nine milennia in Phyrexia, maybe he'd have Outsider HD, but Aberration seems more likely to me. During that time, he probably would have picked up some Wizard, Cleric, or Artificer levels and definitely would've gone into Fleshwarper. Since he's basically in charge of a demiplane, I can see him with at least a virtual divine rank, if you use that system. Barron - human - wizard 30 archmage 5 Not sure why he needs to be level 35. Level 25 is more than enough for epic spells. Has he used a wide enough variety of magic to rule out Abjurer/Master Specialist/Incantar? Freyalise - Planewalker (augmanted elf) - Druid 40 QFT. Titania / Multani - creature type: Plant - Driud 35 QFT. Gerard (capt. of the weatherlight, initiate in marro sorcery) - Human (augmented (LA+1, all stats +2)) - swashbucker 18 Druid 1 Not sure why you gave him LA. He could've just rolled high. Dunno about the Druid level, but like I said, I missed the Invasion novels. Karn - stats of adamantine golem (but large instead of huge, silver instead of adamantine) - living construct template Karn would be a unique creature, sort of like a Major Artifact, except alive. Using the stats for a golem might work, but he wouldn't have the Magic Immunity trait. He'd have an Intelligence sore and pretty good Charisma, but I can't see giving him a Constitution score. Squee - goblin - rogue 20 There is no way Squee is level 20.
Qube 10-07-07, 02:27 AM	I don't see why you're making them incorporeal.Well, indeed, but I would give them the same bonusses (the miss chances, the charisma to AC) In The Thran, Yawgmoth struck me as an Expert, with ranks in Heal, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device. Maybe a few Fighter levels for martial weapon proficiency and to shore up his BAB, and possibly some Human Paragon. I never read it. Sadly, the books aren't ... quite easy gettable ... here. with a lot of searching, I got the invasion cycle ... those 3 books and what I know from a on-line wiki are my only sources. Not sure why he needs to be level 35. Level 25 is more than enough for epic spells. Has he used a wide enough variety of magic to rule out Abjurer/Master Specialist/Incantar? see prev. statement. I know only Baron, from the guy who travels allongside Urza, not having the 'mending' spell perpared, father of Hanna, and caster of Obliterate (IMO a spellcraft 0 epic spell ( 'researched' on the spot), with the -100 spellcraft ineviable death, a few minutes casting time, XP penalty and backlash) Not sure why you gave him LA. He could've just rolled high. Dunno about the Druid level, but like I said, I missed the Invasion novels. I thought multani thought gerrard some lessons in marro sorcery. also IRCC , gerrard is part of Ura's bloodline project*. Karn would be a unique creature, sort of like a Major Artifact, except alive. Using the stats for a golem might work, but he wouldn't have the Magic Immunity trait. IRCC karn was immune to all damage ... he walked through the armies of Yaggmoth, pushing everyone aside. There is no way Squee is level 20. no? you mean Squee the general? the killer of Ertai? IRCC he also kills Crovax ... I'm guessing squee if a lvl 20 rogue: "if you survive an encounter, you get XP" Oh, I also forgot: Squee has continous contingiency true ressurection
CrimsonDeath 10-07-07, 03:47 PM	no? you mean Squee the general? the killer of Ertai? IRCC he also kills Crovax ... I'm guessing squee if a lvl 20 rogue: "if you survive an encounter, you get XP" Oh, I also forgot: Squee has continous contingiency true ressurection I guess he levelled up a lot during the Rath cycle. I wonder how much XP he got for taking out the Predator?...
ornsjach 10-07-07, 03:49 PM	for the brothers id give them lvls in the effigy master PrC becuse there constructs are very life like. but thats me
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 12:18 AM	for the brothers id give them lvls in the effigy master PrC becuse there constructs are very life like. but thats me That might be more Tawnos's bag. Hmm... I wonder what would be the best way to render Ashnod's Transmogrants in D&D?
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 10-08-07, 02:13 AM	The easiest way to create a planeswalker in D&D's rules is to just attach the paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) then give then 10 levels in planesshifter (for non casters treat them as sorcerers) and a divine rank of 0. Paragon nets all the extra bonuses needed, while planesshifter nets the abilities to create a plane, planar survival, telepathy, and if you allow noncasters to gain sorcerer casting then they even end up with innate magical abilities. The divine rank fits in as a pre-WOTC-messed-up-planeswalkers-to-sell-more-cards change. As for them stating them out. Urza has high int and decent charisma but a loner. Sure he didn't use magic, but back then, magic had just been discovered and shortly after it had Mishra attacked the place that was studying it. In D&D, magic is common, even more so in Eberron so let Urza have his infusions. Mishra is not a pure artificer, he spent a fear years as a hard working slave, then a teacher, then as an adviser where he finally got to get back into artifice, then finally as leader of the Fallaji. Stat wise, he is more charismatic than Urza, and while brilliant in his own right, he is not on the same level as Urza. A level of commoner for his years as a slave doing work and a level of expert while working as slave teacher whould make sense, along with a higher str score. Again, allow him access to infusions. *** Early life (still training under Tocasia) Commoner 1 (both) but retrained as artificers. Near the end of this, artificer 2nd or 3rd level. Separation (Urza the clockmaker/Mishra the slave) Urza does not progress level wise while Mishra picks up a commoner level. Urza: Artificer 5 Mishra: Artificer 5 / Commoner 1 Rise to power (Urza courts Kayla Bin-Kroog/ Mishra recruits Ashnod) This is kind of a long stretch of time here. While Urza was building his golem to win a contest for the right to marry Kayla and building up his workshop, Mishra was recognized by an old digger and promoted out of average slave work to teach the 'king's' son. In this era Urza picks up a few artificer levels and his first level of Effigy Master (even if he does not meet the spell requirement) due to meeting Tawnos the toy maker whom shows of a machine snake and improving the flying machine by suggesting to mimic a bird's wings. Mishra picks up an expert level to reflect his teaching. Mishra is also lucky enough to tumble into the Phyrexian plane and get a dragon engine under his control. Urza: Artificer 6 / Effigy Master 1 Mishra: Artificer 5 / Commoner 1 / Expert 1 Ruling Phase (Urza replaces the old warlord/Mishra unites the Fallaji) The Fallaji warlord expects the complete surrender of Kroog but that does not fair well. In short, all out war starts. After the fall of Kroog (Urza unites most of civilized Dominaria/ Mishra is courted by the archdemon Gix) This really falls into the ruling phase... After Kroog fell Urza retreated and his golems took on shapes of animals and he created a tower to live in. I'd say he finished his Effigy Master levels around this time. He was elected as the defender of the region and given everything he needed. After the warlord's son took the place Mishra was promoted to an advisor and was later on defeated when the dragon engine was bomber to death. He later on recruited some more dragon engines and at some point became the ruler of the Fallaji. The brotherhood of Gix had also made its way into Mishra's court and Mishra began to enhance his body. Urza: Artificer 7 / Effigy Master 5 Mishra: Artificer 10 / Expert 1 / Half-Golem LA +1 (commoner is retrained out) At the Apocalypse (Urza shortly pre-ascention/ Mishra the machine) Mishra mentions knowing the true nature of the stones and reveals is is now more of a golem than living person. While Mishra learned alot about how to turn him self into a machine, he had almost no need to studing artifice anymore as the botherhood of Gix was giving him all the information he needed. On a side note, both Urza & Mishra advance an age catorgy or two, but Mishra does not suffer a penalty to his physical scores. Urza: Artificer 12 / Effigy Master 5 Mishra: (now warforged) Artificer 12 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 Mishra merged with a dragon engine: Taluric effigy black dragon (racial HD 18)warforged Artificer 12 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 Post Sylex blast Urza: (paragon human) Artificer 12 / Effigy Master 5 / Planesshifter 3 Mishra: Dead.
Qube 10-08-07, 02:25 AM	At the Apocalypse (Urza shortly pre-ascention/ Mishra the machine) Mishra mentions knowing the true nature of the stones and reveals is is now more of a golem than living person. While Mishra learned alot about how to turn him self into a machine, he had almost no need to studing artifice anymore as the botherhood of Gix was giving him all the information he needed. On a side note, both Urza & Mishra advance an age catorgy or two, but Mishra does not suffer a penalty to his physical scores. Urza: Artificer 12 / Effigy Master 5 Mishra: (now warforged) Artificer 12 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 Mishra merged with a dragon engine: Taluric effigy black dragon (racial HD 18)warforged Artificer 12 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 Post Sylex blast Urza: (paragon human) Artificer 12 / Effigy Master 5 / Planesshifter 3 Mishra: Dead. I think you get in the mist here ... the sylex blast was (way) before the Appocalypse -- Syslex blast -- Urza prepares for the appocalypse (creating his legacy) -- Appocalypse (weatherlight and others fight of the phyrexians)
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 10-08-07, 04:43 PM	I think you get in the mist here ... the sylex blast was (way) before the Appocalypse ... *points* ... Early life (still training under Tocasia) Separation (Urza the clockmaker/Mishra the slave) Rise to power (Urza courts Kayla Bin-Kroog/ Mishra recruits Ashnod) Ruling Phase (Urza replaces the old warlord/Mishra unites the Fallaji) After the fall of Kroog (Urza unites most of civilized Dominaria/ Mishra is courted by the archdemon Gix) At the Apocalypse (Urza shortly pre-ascention/ Mishra the machine) Are the rough stages I can imagine. I just hit quote to copy his time frame. And when I seen "apocalypse" I thought of the english word, not the card expansion. apocalypse (n.) Great or total devastation; doom: the apocalypse of nuclear war. The sylex blast that destoried an entire island and sent towering waves flooding cities and threw the world into the ice age sure sounds apocalyptic to me... Haha burn lolz pwnt :P (no harm no foul, I'm just not a MTG player enough to think of all the MTG terms)
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 07:53 PM	The sylex blast that destoried an entire island and sent towering waves flooding cities and threw the world into the ice age sure sounds apocalyptic to me... If we're talking about an Apocalypse in that sense, there have been several in Dominarian history. The fall of the Thran empire, the destruction of Argoth, the end of the Ice Age, and the Phyrexian invasion are the four that spring most readily to mind.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 10-08-07, 11:12 PM	If we're talking about an Apocalypse in that sense, there have been several in Dominarian history. The fall of the Thran empire, the destruction of Argoth, the end of the Ice Age, and the Phyrexian invasion are the four that spring most readily to mind. I guess, as the MTG fan you are (Urza shortly pre-ascention/ Mishra the machine) will clue you into which one I was talking as it clued me into what Infinitive was talking about. Before this devoles into a flame war entirly based on me coping someone else's use of a word that MTG used as a expansion name I'd like to hear what other ideas of a urza/misha build would be like, at their different stages of their life. Maybe sandstorm has something more fitting for Mishra than commoner/expert...
Infinitive 10-09-07, 12:38 PM	How's this for an idea: A houseruled Walker of the Wastes that, instead fo turning you into a Dry Lich, turns you instead into an Iron Golem (or Half Golem)? Given the storyline and the history, it'd be wicked appropriate.
echelon_house 10-11-07, 09:02 AM	Sweeeeeeeeeeeet. I've been working on creating an entirely new RPG based on Magic. Right now it's kind of a cross between the d20 System and the Storyteller System, but with a heavy emphasis on the color wheel instead of classes. Anyway, I'm still conflicted on how to adapt planeswalkers. The "classic" version would essentially be DMs in their own right, which would obviously make them impossible to beat. I guess the only way to really make them at all fair to fight against would be to make them a prestige class based more on the new "scaled-down" planeswalkers, and to ensure that they can only be NPCs. If just one player out of a group was a planeswalker the others would basically be pointless, and if your entire party were 'walkers they would easily be the most powerful beings in your entire game world.