Versitility vs. Specialization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Versitility vs. Specialization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Monikerrpg
06-25-03, 11:01 PM As I am about to go out and do battle with the Masses of Ignorance and Powergamers, I thought I would ask around and see if my interpretation was full of hot air or actually The Way Things Are Meant To Be.

Multiclassing is something you do to broaden your abilities and be more versital, but at the cost of not being as good as you might have otherwise been.

Taking a prestige class is a way of focusing on a particular aspect of what you already do (or would like to do) and getting better at it, again at the cost of not being as good at something else.

Prestige Classes that require multiclassing to qualify combine the aspects of the required classes in unique and synergistic ways, again at the cost of progressing in other ways.

This is how I've always thought of these things, both in game mechanics and roleplaying aspects. Why is it so hard to find people who agree? Why do so many people think that Prestige classes should give cool benefits at no cost? Am I insane.... Or are they?
Frodo Lives
06-26-03, 12:12 AM They are! I don't like it one bit when someone in my game decides to Multi class or take on a PrC because of it's "cool" abilities with no regard to roleplaying or if it makes sense as a character concept. A PrC should be nothing more than specializing your character in one or two areas that you find important, at the expense of other areas. I don't like any PrC that just grants you benefits and bonuses without costing something in the way of power or versitility. There are too many PrC out there that are way overpowering but try to balance it out with roleplaying restrictions. These restrictions are almost always ignored, to the detriment of every other character in the group, who now is overshadowed by the Superman with 10 classes and min maxed to the hilt.
Redyak
06-26-03, 12:24 AM Your definitions are the way that things should be, but not always the way that they are. Prestiege classes often seem more about adding power than about adding specialization, particularly many of the arcane spellcasting PrCs.

I also agree with Frodo that multiclassing should be done for roleplaying or concept reasons, not for power reasons.
Leap
06-26-03, 03:16 AM Specialisation IS about power - that is why people specialise; for greater power in a more limited area. The choice is simply the age old "jack of all trades or master of one" decision......personally I go for the former.....generalisation simply avoids helplessness (a bit of skill in lots of areas) whist specialistation tends towards arrogance [perhaps this is why they are called "prestige"] and hubris.

The extremes of the hubris of specialisation can be seen in the undead, who give away all the "extraneous" bits of being human (or elf or whatever), you know the bits that actually *make* us human (!), in favour of very specialised power.
Eagle Prince
06-26-03, 04:37 AM I think most people like to specialize in something, because specializing is supposed to make you good at it. People like playing a character who is the best at something--nobody wants to play a second-rate swordsman. Yeah, that could be cool for a NPC or novel character, but overall its not something someone wants to play. Sometimes people will want to play a character with a broad range of abilities, like maybe a fighter who is decent with about any weapon he picks up... even then, there is a certain amount of wanting to be the best. He might not be the best swordsman, but nobody could just be thrown a random weapon and have as much skill as him. I don't think its something a DM should discourage... its part of the reason people play the game.
Leap
06-26-03, 08:53 AM I find Prestige Classes to be excellent ways to tempt good characters to evil - the "ohhh so you like power then.........." approach ;)
Mikal
06-26-03, 05:09 PM I find your attitude towards people that min/max to be pretty snotty in some ways. What you may not realize is that most people who do multiple classes ARE working towards a charecter concept. And if you're getting your opinions on min/maxing from people who do builds with 6 or 7 classes in it, then perhaps you should take a deeper look at the build itself. Most builds made these days that get that complex are usually done just for the theoretical aspect of it rather then for a power gaming complex. And who are YOU to say that a build that combines 4 or 5 or sometimes even 6 classes can't be a good charecter concept. I've seen people who call themselves 'roleplayers' who are just spouting hot air, and didn't bother to learn the rules well enough to do it themselves, while the 'powergamers' they maligned were in fact roleplaying and staying true to their charecter better then the 'roleplayers' were, while still having enough knowledge about the rules system to use it effectivly rather then bog down game time because they don't know the basics! So before you go 'enlighten' the 'ignorant masses', maybe you should take a deeper look into the situation, eh?
Frodo Lives
06-26-03, 11:19 PM I never said that everyone who multiclasses or uses a PrC is a hopeless powergaming munchkin. I play a character that has taken a PrC and is almost done with it (Divine Disciple) and will take another one (Contimplative). What I don't like and I see it all the time, is players who have characters that take levels in classes for no reason other than the benifits that they grant, and have no in game reason for. Also, my pet peeve is when someone take a PrC that has roleplaying restrictions (Hospitaler, Templar) and completly ignores the ROLE PLAYING aspect of that PrC. I mean, that's like someone who wants to play a paladin but doesn't follow the paladin's code. What DM would allow that? So why do DM's allow the PrC role playing aspect to be ignored, and why do players feel free to ignore them? Multi classing and using PrC are great for developing your character and continuing their story, that is why they are available. But I and many others have seen too much min/maxing and rabid munkin power gamers take advantage of the rules and loopholes far more than we've seen powerful combos used for role playing purposes.

1 rogue/1 ranger/ X rogue Ha Ha Ha tell me that's not min maxing! :rolleyes:
Leap
06-27-03, 03:51 AM Mikal –

“I find your attitude towards people that min/max to be pretty snotty in some ways. What you may not realize is that most people who do multiple classes ARE working towards a character concept.”

I’m sorry! Is this aimed at me (coming straight after my post with no “To xxx” label at the start)?!

I am not attacking multiclass characters (quite the contrary actually!). I would say a multiclass is a “healthier option” than a single class, and single class is healthier than a Prestige class. :)

I also tend to find people who play multiclasses to be more prone to LG and those who play Prestige more prone to CE, but that might just be rather odd personal experience……………….
Mikal
06-30-03, 02:12 PM I apologize if coming off a little hostile, but it seemed to me that you were just attacking excessive multiclassing in general, whether or not that includes roleplaying reasons or not. As for the min/maxing aspects of doing this, as I said before most builds that take classes with no roleplaying reason or whim behind it you may see on the min/max board are again, theoritical in general, as most people just like to see what they can come up with using the exisiting rules. At least thats with the more out there builds. While in a regular game I would not agree with a person who is a monk one level then a barbarian the next, without a good reason, I don't think that there is a problem with a person who does this if thats what the group's standard is. Instead of trying to go educate masses and whatnot, why not let them play the game the way they like to play it rather then trying to make them play your way? Instead of arguing about how your way is better, show them how you play, either online, at home with new players, or at conventions? If your way is truly the BEST way to play, then the person will start playing that way as well. If they don't, then maybe the 'best' way to play is actually subjective, and as such, does not need to be changed to suit someone else if the person truly doesn't want to.

And to add a little to the discussion, isn't taking a prestiege class the same as multiclassing, barring any xp hits due to taking multiple classes? I would say yes.
The One and Only...
06-30-03, 02:22 PM What's wrong with min/maxing? I min/max all the time, and am proud to say I do so.

It's easy to build a character concept around any build.
Leap
06-30-03, 02:31 PM Mikal –

I apologize if coming off a little hostile,

A little?! You have a gift for understatement! ;)

but it seemed to me that you were just attacking excessive multiclassing in general,

Are you sure you have the right person here? I am being supportive of multiclassing – it is specialisation that I was criticising!

And to add a little to the discussion, isn't taking a prestiege class the same as multiclassing, barring any xp hits due to taking multiple classes? I would say yes

No.

Multiclassing tends to broaden the skill base whilst not allowing specialisation in any area, whilst Prestige classes are a tighter focus, a greater degree of specialisation rather than the greater degree of generalisation that multi-classing brings.

:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monikerrpg 06-25-03, 11:01 PM	As I am about to go out and do battle with the Masses of Ignorance and Powergamers, I thought I would ask around and see if my interpretation was full of hot air or actually The Way Things Are Meant To Be. Multiclassing is something you do to broaden your abilities and be more versital, but at the cost of not being as good as you might have otherwise been. Taking a prestige class is a way of focusing on a particular aspect of what you already do (or would like to do) and getting better at it, again at the cost of not being as good at something else. Prestige Classes that require multiclassing to qualify combine the aspects of the required classes in unique and synergistic ways, again at the cost of progressing in other ways. This is how I've always thought of these things, both in game mechanics and roleplaying aspects. Why is it so hard to find people who agree? Why do so many people think that Prestige classes should give cool benefits at no cost? Am I insane.... Or are they?
Frodo Lives 06-26-03, 12:12 AM	They are! I don't like it one bit when someone in my game decides to Multi class or take on a PrC because of it's "cool" abilities with no regard to roleplaying or if it makes sense as a character concept. A PrC should be nothing more than specializing your character in one or two areas that you find important, at the expense of other areas. I don't like any PrC that just grants you benefits and bonuses without costing something in the way of power or versitility. There are too many PrC out there that are way overpowering but try to balance it out with roleplaying restrictions. These restrictions are almost always ignored, to the detriment of every other character in the group, who now is overshadowed by the Superman with 10 classes and min maxed to the hilt.
Redyak 06-26-03, 12:24 AM	Your definitions are the way that things should be, but not always the way that they are. Prestiege classes often seem more about adding power than about adding specialization, particularly many of the arcane spellcasting PrCs. I also agree with Frodo that multiclassing should be done for roleplaying or concept reasons, not for power reasons.
Leap 06-26-03, 03:16 AM	Specialisation IS about power - that is why people specialise; for greater power in a more limited area. The choice is simply the age old "jack of all trades or master of one" decision......personally I go for the former.....generalisation simply avoids helplessness (a bit of skill in lots of areas) whist specialistation tends towards arrogance [perhaps this is why they are called "prestige"] and hubris. The extremes of the hubris of specialisation can be seen in the undead, who give away all the "extraneous" bits of being human (or elf or whatever), you know the bits that actually make us human (!), in favour of very specialised power.
Eagle Prince 06-26-03, 04:37 AM	I think most people like to specialize in something, because specializing is supposed to make you good at it. People like playing a character who is the best at something--nobody wants to play a second-rate swordsman. Yeah, that could be cool for a NPC or novel character, but overall its not something someone wants to play. Sometimes people will want to play a character with a broad range of abilities, like maybe a fighter who is decent with about any weapon he picks up... even then, there is a certain amount of wanting to be the best. He might not be the best swordsman, but nobody could just be thrown a random weapon and have as much skill as him. I don't think its something a DM should discourage... its part of the reason people play the game.
Leap 06-26-03, 08:53 AM	I find Prestige Classes to be excellent ways to tempt good characters to evil - the "ohhh so you like power then.........." approach ;)
Mikal 06-26-03, 05:09 PM	I find your attitude towards people that min/max to be pretty snotty in some ways. What you may not realize is that most people who do multiple classes ARE working towards a charecter concept. And if you're getting your opinions on min/maxing from people who do builds with 6 or 7 classes in it, then perhaps you should take a deeper look at the build itself. Most builds made these days that get that complex are usually done just for the theoretical aspect of it rather then for a power gaming complex. And who are YOU to say that a build that combines 4 or 5 or sometimes even 6 classes can't be a good charecter concept. I've seen people who call themselves 'roleplayers' who are just spouting hot air, and didn't bother to learn the rules well enough to do it themselves, while the 'powergamers' they maligned were in fact roleplaying and staying true to their charecter better then the 'roleplayers' were, while still having enough knowledge about the rules system to use it effectivly rather then bog down game time because they don't know the basics! So before you go 'enlighten' the 'ignorant masses', maybe you should take a deeper look into the situation, eh?
Frodo Lives 06-26-03, 11:19 PM	I never said that everyone who multiclasses or uses a PrC is a hopeless powergaming munchkin. I play a character that has taken a PrC and is almost done with it (Divine Disciple) and will take another one (Contimplative). What I don't like and I see it all the time, is players who have characters that take levels in classes for no reason other than the benifits that they grant, and have no in game reason for. Also, my pet peeve is when someone take a PrC that has roleplaying restrictions (Hospitaler, Templar) and completly ignores the ROLE PLAYING aspect of that PrC. I mean, that's like someone who wants to play a paladin but doesn't follow the paladin's code. What DM would allow that? So why do DM's allow the PrC role playing aspect to be ignored, and why do players feel free to ignore them? Multi classing and using PrC are great for developing your character and continuing their story, that is why they are available. But I and many others have seen too much min/maxing and rabid munkin power gamers take advantage of the rules and loopholes far more than we've seen powerful combos used for role playing purposes. 1 rogue/1 ranger/ X rogue Ha Ha Ha tell me that's not min maxing! :rolleyes:
Leap 06-27-03, 03:51 AM	Mikal – “I find your attitude towards people that min/max to be pretty snotty in some ways. What you may not realize is that most people who do multiple classes ARE working towards a character concept.” I’m sorry! Is this aimed at me (coming straight after my post with no “To xxx” label at the start)?! I am not attacking multiclass characters (quite the contrary actually!). I would say a multiclass is a “healthier option” than a single class, and single class is healthier than a Prestige class. :) I also tend to find people who play multiclasses to be more prone to LG and those who play Prestige more prone to CE, but that might just be rather odd personal experience……………….
Mikal 06-30-03, 02:12 PM	I apologize if coming off a little hostile, but it seemed to me that you were just attacking excessive multiclassing in general, whether or not that includes roleplaying reasons or not. As for the min/maxing aspects of doing this, as I said before most builds that take classes with no roleplaying reason or whim behind it you may see on the min/max board are again, theoritical in general, as most people just like to see what they can come up with using the exisiting rules. At least thats with the more out there builds. While in a regular game I would not agree with a person who is a monk one level then a barbarian the next, without a good reason, I don't think that there is a problem with a person who does this if thats what the group's standard is. Instead of trying to go educate masses and whatnot, why not let them play the game the way they like to play it rather then trying to make them play your way? Instead of arguing about how your way is better, show them how you play, either online, at home with new players, or at conventions? If your way is truly the BEST way to play, then the person will start playing that way as well. If they don't, then maybe the 'best' way to play is actually subjective, and as such, does not need to be changed to suit someone else if the person truly doesn't want to. And to add a little to the discussion, isn't taking a prestiege class the same as multiclassing, barring any xp hits due to taking multiple classes? I would say yes.
The One and Only... 06-30-03, 02:22 PM	What's wrong with min/maxing? I min/max all the time, and am proud to say I do so. It's easy to build a character concept around any build.
Leap 06-30-03, 02:31 PM	Mikal – I apologize if coming off a little hostile, A little?! You have a gift for understatement! ;) but it seemed to me that you were just attacking excessive multiclassing in general, Are you sure you have the right person here? I am being supportive of multiclassing – it is specialisation that I was criticising! And to add a little to the discussion, isn't taking a prestiege class the same as multiclassing, barring any xp hits due to taking multiple classes? I would say yes No. Multiclassing tends to broaden the skill base whilst not allowing specialisation in any area, whilst Prestige classes are a tighter focus, a greater degree of specialisation rather than the greater degree of generalisation that multi-classing brings. :)