Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindLord 12-04-04, 12:58 AM	Well, yah, I am playing a character who has 18 charisma. I do know what wisdom is supposed to be (perception of the world, while intelligence is the world of logics and charisma let you influence the material world), but I cannot imagine a wise person other than a calm, patient bouddy who always says things in enigmatic ways. There must be some funnier way to play it. I don't want to give anymore info on the characters, be it his class or race, I just would like some general guidances to play an original wise character. But I can give you his intelligence and charisma; 11 and 13.
SD 12-04-04, 02:32 PM	I'm going to pretend that the first time you said "Charisma", you meant "Wisdom", since that's what the rest of the thread concerns. I knew somebody who played a minotaur with spectacular Wisdom and stunningly low Intelligence. Essentially, he was aware of everything that was going on ("Hey, we've already been through this section of the forest twice already."), but it didn't occur to him to tell anyone ("Yes, we've been here before. I though you knew."). The PHB says "A character with a high Wisdom score may be sensible, serene, "in tune", alert, or centered." Much of the cast of Frasier fits some version of these criteria; imagine the dwarven fighter who goes around trying to help random bar patrons with psychiatric advice and observation. A hippie-type character could also be especially in tune with the world, less in a "Dude, I smell colors." sense and more in a "Dude, this place has a sweet vibe, man. Ohhhhhmmm..." sense. On the other end of the "I notice everything" spectrum is the conspiracy theorist, who draws connections that don't exist among completely unrelated events, but in such a thoughtful, processed manner that people who talk with the character find themselves slowly buying into it. It doesn't have to be a jumpy, irrational character (in fact, it almost certainly shouldn't), but rather somebody who quietly points out that the thin man in the corner fingering the black dagger has been staring especially hard at the blue triangle tattoo on the right hand of the sailor at the bar, which is an inverted form of the oath-mark of an ancient order of half-dragon assassins that operated in an underground section of this very city before the salamanders destroyed it in a fit of rage spurred by the murder of their king by a thin man with a black dagger...coincidence?
clarkvalentine 12-04-04, 08:40 PM	The protagonist of the film Sling Blade was the classic low-Intelligence, high-Wisdom character. He had an IQ of about 80 but had uncanny insight. Your guy isn't to that extreme, obviously. I'd imagine him as an average guy - not stupid, but certainly not a genius - who sometimes comes up with an amazing bit of insight into a situation, notices the detail that most others overlook, or can provide the perfect bit of commonsense advice.
Melpomene 12-05-04, 01:31 AM	The highest wisdom charicter I'v seen writen or put on screen is Dumbledore from Harry Potter. Perpetually on top of things, infinately knowing and understanding. Of course, that's a bit over WIS18, but we'll assume it's close.
Azual 12-05-04, 12:06 PM	Wise Old people hmm :D Smart but no wisdom ME!!!! :D Evil, and yet wise... ya got me :D
MindLord 12-06-04, 08:06 PM	Thanks for the advice, and yes my character has 18 wisdom, not charisma. However, my point was rather something else. I do understand the subtilities of wisdom, the difference between intelligent and wise. I was mostly looking for characteristics of wise person, other than calm and patient. I did pick up the "observative" and found it logical yet full of potential for a character, but do they always have to be patient? Can't they commit any not safe act, just for the fun of it? The way I see it, high wisdom may be as bad as the Paladin's code of conduct.
nihility 12-07-04, 11:44 AM	Thanks for the advice, and yes my character has 18 wisdom, not charisma. However, my point was rather something else. I do understand the subtilities of wisdom, the difference between intelligent and wise. I was mostly looking for characteristics of wise person, other than calm and patient. I did pick up the "observative" and found it logical yet full of potential for a character, but do they always have to be patient? Can't they commit any not safe act, just for the fun of it? The way I see it, high wisdom may be as bad as the Paladin's code of conduct. Wisdom indicates good observational ability and intuition, but just because you notice something doesn't mean that you have to make use of it. For example, a high WIS character could still lack common sense or just not care. Alternately, the character could be from a culture that values fast action over thoughtful planning (no spot check for me, I charge!), or the character could be a daredevil or adrenaline junkie; the latter works nicely for a high WIS character because they have a greater-than-average ability to notice the dangers involved in a risky stunt, leading to a bigger thrill. As for patience, I could easily see a high WIS character being very impatient. For example, an extremely devoted NG druid who loathes evil in all forms, and especially evil committed against nature, would probably not patiently sit around listening to her companions debate plans while a bunch of undead destroy and befoul a sacred grove. Consider also that a heightened awareness of the attitudes of others (sense motive runs off of WIS, after all) might lead a character to be keenly aware of the pain and suffering of those around her. Perhaps this sense of empathy leads them to take hasty action to help others, with a mindset of "if it helps someone, I'll do it!"
Melpomene 12-07-04, 06:28 PM	"Intelegence is what they try to teach you in school. Wisdom it what you actually *learn*."
MindLord 12-07-04, 08:49 PM	Empathy, I like that. Somehow, I had this "I know the answer to all your problem" stereotype of the cleric, but of course, empathy for others is very good, and very very interesting to role-play. You can be aware of your surrounding, not only for sounds and images, but for emotions too. Yes, it does have a lot of potential. The "I know, but didn't care" could also create lots of interesting situations. "Intelligence is what they try to teach you in school. Wisdom is what you actually learn" As a student myself, I admit this sentence has a huge load of truth. Thanks for the help guys. I think I can get on with my druid perfectly. If you have any more ideas, feel free to post, it may help others after all.
Trydan 12-08-04, 03:45 AM	Sometimes some extremes help in trying to understand these things. Consider the "mad scientist". He is very bright, and can devise the most amazing experiments and theories. However, he is absent-minded, pre-occupied in the work and stark-raving mad. That's high-int, low-wis. On the other hand, consider the "venerable monk" (in the european-church sense, not the character class). He has seen it all, is aware of his surroundings, has peace in his heart. He can make sound decisions, but is not knowledgable in technology or the fast pace of modern life, and he doesn't care either - for him it is not what is important. He can not read, andThat's high-wis, low-int.
nihility 12-08-04, 10:56 AM	Sometimes some extremes help in trying to understand these things. Consider the "mad scientist". He is very bright, and can devise the most amazing experiments and theories. However, he is absent-minded, pre-occupied in the work and stark-raving mad. That's high-int, low-wis. On the other hand, consider the "venerable monk" (in the european-church sense, not the character class). He has seen it all, is aware of his surroundings, has peace in his heart. He can make sound decisions, but is not knowledgable in technology or the fast pace of modern life, and he doesn't care either - for him it is not what is important. He can not read, andThat's high-wis, low-int. I think you missed the question. The "peace in his heart" venerable monk was considered too cliche, and alternative traits were being sought. To quote the original post: I cannot imagine a wise person other than a calm, patient bouddy who always says things in enigmatic ways. There must be some funnier way to play it. There's also this: I do understand the subtilities of wisdom, the difference between intelligent and wise. I was mostly looking for characteristics of wise person, other than calm and patient.
Airsucker 12-08-04, 04:21 PM	Not all patience is the same. I have a great deal of patience, its just not for people. It could be that you get rather irritated or sarcastic with less wise characters. "Like anyone could miss that oddly colored cloak in a place like this." Wise does not mean nice. ;) Did you see Kill Bill II? The old Chinese man who taught the Bride was wise, but really not nice.
Callista 12-08-04, 10:02 PM	Look at the skills Wisdom affects. Then change your Wisdom skill to "Perception". Your character will be someone who's always aware of what's going on. He can remember minute details about things he saw; he can make connections between things he knows (though, with average intelligence, he won't know as much as his 18 Int wizard buddy). In battle, he'll have enough perceptiveness to notice everything about the battlefield--how his allies are faring, who's taking wounds, where the spellcasters are located, who's using what strategy. He'll be very big on common sense. His strategies, while they won't be elaborate, won't need to be: He'll take everything into account. Someone who's perceptive like that is always looking at the big picture. He's very intuitive. In a diplomatic-style adventure, he's the one making the connections between the people; and while he won't be the one teasing out secrets or interacting with the people who have the information (normal Charisma makes him only passably good at this), he'll be the one figuring out people's motivations, connections, etc. He's the one with the hunches, the suspicions, the mental map of the spider's-web of the king's high court. In dungeon crawls, he'll be the one who notices little details. He'll be just about as good at solving puzzles as his high-INT buddies, though he'll go at the problem different ways. Chances are, he jumps straight to the answer, while a high-INT character figures things out step-by-step--and he mighn't even know how he got there. (I have a barbarian character like this--INT 10, WIS 15, very good at riddles, but really can't explain how she figures them out.) That bit of stonework that everyone else overlooks? He'll not only see it, but connect it with similar bits of carving he's seen elsewhere; and not only that, but he'll connect it with the style of a master carver's statues, which he saw two years ago in the aforementioned king's court. See what I mean? Doesn't have to be monklike--just has to be intuitive, perceptive, and have a sort of instinctive grasp of the world around him.
Judging Eagle 12-08-04, 10:06 PM	Not all patience is the same. I have a great deal of patience, its just not for people. It could be that you get rather irritated or sarcastic with less wise characters. "Like anyone could miss that oddly colored cloak in a place like this." Wise does not mean nice. ;) Did you see Kill Bill II? The old Chinese man who taught the Bride was wise, but really not nice. That would be an example of a High Wisdom stat and a Low Charsima stat. A high wisdom character may know many wise sayings, but now know what they mean or may not use them to further the situation (ie. they could simply frustrate their allies with pendantic proverbs). 11 int and 13 cha are above average int and cha, not genius intelligence or celebrity charisma, but more than the average drone of society.
MindLord 12-08-04, 10:22 PM	Sorry but I completly disagree with you Eagle. Knowing proverbs without knowing their meanings is to me a sign of higher intelligence than wisdom. You know lines by heart (intelligence) but doesn't understand them (wisdom). It's like knowing what the Great Demon ORcjusjh said when he slayed his foe (Knowledge the planes DC 45) while getting the idea behind the innuendo of the tavern rogue (sense motive DC 20). Thanks Castilla, your post was helpful determining the usefulness of wisdom in dungeons, a obscure thing to me, but didn't quite answered my question directly. But it guided me on good ideas, though. So the advisor of the king would more likely be a wise person, instead of an intelligent one. Interesting. "Not all patience is the same". A great point. But I finally cleared my head out of the idea that wisdom implied patience. I expected them to be so because, as wise, they would notice they are able to discern stuff better than other. And since they know it, they can become patient, but also proud, arrogent, etc. At least that part is clear.
nihility 12-08-04, 11:17 PM	By decree of the class/ability tests I am a: Lawful Neutral Dwarf Bard (bard got a whopping 40, fighter/pally/monk in the mid-high 20's, rest 10 or less) :uh-huh: Wow. You're an illegal character. How's that working out for you?
Ninja_Sensei 12-09-04, 03:02 PM	What about something liek Yoda? Or "the Old Master" (for a funnier version: Chun from The Adventures of Remo Williams)? When I started playing a wise cleric (Wis = 20 ... currently) I went out and shuffled througha book of proverbs (with their meanings) and 'translated' them into sayings based on the Seldarine powers. Of course he is a very serene and independent spirit. You can usually pick up a book on proverbs, or sayings, etc. really cheap. And it could help set the tone. You could also have someone with the knowledge of the world ... and absolutely no ability to communicate it to others. ("Will someone tell that windbag to shut-up?" "He never uses 2 words when 20 will do.")
MindLord 12-10-04, 02:09 PM	You can usually pick up a book on proverbs, or sayings, etc. really cheap. And it could help set the tone. I try to stay away from that. First of all, because I don't think it would be appropriate to a druid, especially one that was raised outside a druid circle like mine. Second of all, I find too much cliche, so not very fun to play. You could also have someone with the knowledge of the world ... and absolutely no ability to communicate it to others. ("Will someone tell that windbag to shut-up?" "He never uses 2 words when 20 will do.") Not understood that part, though it sounded interesting. Who says those things between the ( ), the knowledge character or his partners? Knowing lots of things but not being able to communicate them, would it be a good example of high wis or int with a low cha?
The BO 12-12-04, 10:16 AM	Somehow most of you miss a point... Wisdom in D&D is more Perception like Callista mentioned. It affects your play in no way at all. It's what you see, hear (and smell if you like). It only affects what your GM tells you is going on. No need to be cryptic or funny speaking just because you have a high wisdom. Everything mentioned here for high wisdom is more high intelligence. Yes, you notice the guy in the corner with the knive. Yes you see the man at a table who is his prey... but to make a connection that's INT. You notice everything around you, but to remember the details later, that's INT. You see the three men behind trees with bows, but to suspect there are 5 behind you for an ambush, that's INT. WIS is what you see, INT is what you make of it. So INT is for you to play while WIS is for your GM to tell you. In fact the only Stats you play are INT and CHA. (No CHA is not how you look, but how other people percieve you.) Yoda e.g. had high INT and high CHA ... his WIS is of no concerne since he never said "hey dude, there's an ambush over there" People who draw connections between this and that have high INT ... if they can tell you in a way that you think "this dude is cool" they have high CHA ... and if they see the bomb hidden under the pile of trash which is going to blow up in a few secs ... well, that's WIS.
Evadyn 12-12-04, 11:32 AM	You are apsolutly right.
MindLord 12-12-04, 01:36 PM	Agreed for all, but the part where you say "wis doesn't change how you play". You're right to say it doesn't have the direct character concern like Int or Cha do, but think of your character on the long term. I mean, this guy with a huge wis probably had it in his younger days. So to live and to know that you are more perceptive than others influences you. You may turn prideful because of it, think at it like it was normal and the other are just "innatentive", arrogant even (When surprised would go "You didn't suprise me, I just wanted to pay you a compliment for your higher than normal skills, but not high enough to beat mines, of course"). You're totally right about your conception of Wis and Int, but it does change your personnality.
nihility 12-12-04, 03:35 PM	Somehow most of you miss a point... Wisdom in D&D is more Perception like Callista mentioned. It affects your play in no way at all. It's what you see, hear (and smell if you like). It only affects what your GM tells you is going on. Not quite. According to the PHB, wisdom also affects common sense and intuition, which means that how you interpret the information you receive is also partly dependent on wisdom. Intelligence is certainly what you use for analysis and reasoning, but that doesn't mean that it's the only stat you use to draw conclusions (or leap to conclusions, as the case may be). Edit: of couse, the sort of conclusions you draw from having a high wisdom often take the form of information from the DM, such as using a sense motive check to figure out that Alice is nervous around Bob because she's secretly in love with him. So, in that sense, your point that wisdom is what the DM tells you often holds true.
BronzeBeard 12-12-04, 06:32 PM	Well according to the example granted by D&D rules: The following story (which is from ADND supplement) is, well... "You walk outside. Suddenly you feel a bit cold, wet on your shoulder. your wisdom use your senses to describe you a cloudy, gray sky with a bits of water falling. your intillegent tells you that rain is what the phenomanal all about. It also tells you that this area is subject to many rains and the rainfall will probably last for couple of hours if not more. then your wisdom tells you that you'de better taking cover otherwise you'll get cold." Int - gives you INFORMATION. it involves what stuff you may and have learned, what you may know and general, well - you know, knowledge and 'I know that and this type of actions' Wis - is, generally, about connecting and absording the surrondings. all does we should do that and we'de better get moving and stuff. It is more practical than Intelligent since it's the thing responsible for your senses to work (smell, see, hear, feel (with skin) and taste) and also about analyzing them using both the aquiered knowledge (5 senses) and knowed knowledge (the actuall knowledge skills). Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.