What would make a paladin question their code? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What would make a paladin question their code? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
m_man96
07-08-04, 03:32 PM Hi everybody. I've recently played through Hordes of the Underdark again (that's an NWN game) and this time, I roleplayed a paladin that fell to become a blackguard. Since HotU really doesn't offer much rp'ing opportunities to effectively roleplay such an event, my question is this:

What would make a paladin question his or her code of honor/conduct? More specifically, what events, adventures, ect?
LiXinjian
07-08-04, 07:08 PM Situations where you have to chose the less of two evils, of course.

Or better yet, a situation where the paladin's strict doctrine prevents him from picking the less of the two evils. For instance, if only he could lie to prevent the evil cleric from killing those two sweet children. But no! Instead, he has to tell the truth and watch all hundred prisoners die a horrible death.

That gets the brain going. If he betrays his lawful alignment, he must atone. And he probably should.

Catch 22s like this one make a paladin's life interesting.
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger
07-08-04, 08:14 PM You had the exact same thought as me LiXinjian.

Generally it's only those catch 22 situations or the choose the lesser of the two evils that really make a paladin break his or her code and get to thinking is the way I'm doing things right? Or the only way to do something good is to break your alignment. For instance to save people the paladin has no choice but to lie and steal something or the paladin wouldn't be able to succeed.

But hopefully a DM won't give catch 22's very much because it tends to tick players off when they get shafted once too many times. Though from experience it does create some great roleplaying between the party in the rare occurences.
cmas3117
07-13-04, 03:33 PM I like what the others have said, so this is really just in addition to what's gone before.

There's a difference between questioning one's code and breaking it. I have a paladin that is played on a Neverwinter Nights Roleplaying Server (Battledale).

Kethry Tyrsdottr is an orphan (I don't usually do the orphan thing, but it works for her) who was found left at a monastery of Tyr in the Stormhorn Mountains. The clerics and paladins of Tyr raised her, and trained her. The direction of her life was to be a shield maiden of Tyr. Now she makes her home in the Dalelands. Over the time of her playing, there have been many times when she has questioned whether the law that she is sworn to uphold should in fact be upheld.

Some examples. In the game in which she lives, Zhents have overtaken a nearby town and rule it with an iron fist. Their laws are of course despotic and tyrannical. For this reason and others, she has this internal conflict that basically centers around the question, "Should a law be upheld if it doesn't serve the good of the people?"

The answer that Kethry has found through prayer and much consideration is that there is a difference between law and justice. A law should not be upheld if it does not serve the good of the people, but that there are venues for having a law changed that lie within the framework of the law in general.

In the time that she has been living in this game, she has not violated her oaths or her code though she has questioned her faith on more than one occasion.

As I said, there's a difference, though this rambling post probably doesn't make any sense.

cmas.
Dalrath
07-14-04, 11:28 PM IMHO if by upholding their code someone important to them comes to harm, the paladin would question the validity of their code.
nihility
07-20-04, 11:47 PM I'm co-DMing a game with an NPC fallen Paladin, and here's what we've got:

The initial fall comes as a result of the pally in question getting very drunk after returning from a successful mission in which a number of his comrades died. He is not the type given to excess, but circumstance and company conspired against him. Over the course of the night, he takes part in a number of dishonorable acts, and acts that inadverantly show disrespect to authority. No one thing is very bad, but, as a whole, they constitute a significant breech of his code.

No big deal so far; he can just atone, right? But it's not that easy. To atone, you have to accept fault. Due to conflicting stories and other complications, the pally found the accounts of his actions to be both absurd and contradictory. So, now he's being told that he made a fool of himself, disgraced himself, and needs to atone, but he can't believe the claims about what he did. The stories are just too absurd; why should he debase himself over what seems to be a poorly-executed prank?

Doubt and pride grow within him. He couldn't have done all this, it's clearly impossible, yet his abilities are gone. Why? Why has he been forsaken? Has his past service been for nothing?

And thus he falls. Right now, he's lawful neutral, but what comes next... we'll see ^_^

From here, a character can easily slip to evil. For example, pride and doubt could turn to pride and bitterness, eventually poisoning the heart against others. Or perhaps the character looks higher, to his superiors and other exemplars of good, and finds a rotten core within (perhaps real, perhaps not); this revelation that good merely masks a deeper evil could easily give the final push. Again, the revelation need not be factual, but it does need to be believable.
aleshandre
07-21-04, 02:19 PM I have seen people in real life go from believing in one religion and changing and turning against it. The realistic path is that the paladin would make several mistakes, most small, but each causes him to doubt, until finally the last straw is an event that shreds the weakened faith, such as a loved one dying or seeing an innocent killed by an enemy, while being powerless to stop it.
Arcen
07-22-04, 03:13 AM Depending on how huge a circumstance you wanted to make it. Maybe the god to which Paly devoted his entire life and has served with selfless devotion turns his back on the paladin right when he needed it the most. (loved one in peril, etc.)
Drasche
07-22-04, 03:30 AM Another classic (or cliche) is the mistaken identity.

Basically, the paladin, blinded by rage at the gall of his foe, is finally about to catch up with the BBEG. Upon cornering him the paladin strikes him down, only to reveal it was one of the prisoners he had come to save dressed up in an illusion. To boot, it was his wife/king/mentor/etc. Sure, he might atone, but the mental scar would haunt him for the rest of his life.
Kitt-su
07-28-04, 01:19 AM Or maybe the paladin sees that his life(In his eyes) is turning into doing every little thing people themselves are to lazy to do themselves. Since hes such a ro-model and all he couldn't possibly yell at everyone to do the smaller things themselves( ex. "Go kill the goblins yourselves you wussies! Theres 20 of them and like 50 of you in this village and the surrounding area!") So eventually he stops being a paladin (Takes fighter levels). The character wouldn't notice. Eventually he sees the people that he had to constantly baby sit as the people that are the real problem in the world and turns his sword to them in the name of ridding the world of such laziness(Blackguard levels). From there on its the blackguard slaughtering the innocent for his own evil greater good. Those who stop him are wrong in his getting rid of the laziness. His mount becoming twisted and evil is just an improvment on the old on, and his ability to tear down the lazy folk (Smite good) is just another blessing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
m_man96 07-08-04, 03:32 PM	Hi everybody. I've recently played through Hordes of the Underdark again (that's an NWN game) and this time, I roleplayed a paladin that fell to become a blackguard. Since HotU really doesn't offer much rp'ing opportunities to effectively roleplay such an event, my question is this: What would make a paladin question his or her code of honor/conduct? More specifically, what events, adventures, ect?
LiXinjian 07-08-04, 07:08 PM	Situations where you have to chose the less of two evils, of course. Or better yet, a situation where the paladin's strict doctrine prevents him from picking the less of the two evils. For instance, if only he could lie to prevent the evil cleric from killing those two sweet children. But no! Instead, he has to tell the truth and watch all hundred prisoners die a horrible death. That gets the brain going. If he betrays his lawful alignment, he must atone. And he probably should. Catch 22s like this one make a paladin's life interesting.
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger 07-08-04, 08:14 PM	You had the exact same thought as me LiXinjian. Generally it's only those catch 22 situations or the choose the lesser of the two evils that really make a paladin break his or her code and get to thinking is the way I'm doing things right? Or the only way to do something good is to break your alignment. For instance to save people the paladin has no choice but to lie and steal something or the paladin wouldn't be able to succeed. But hopefully a DM won't give catch 22's very much because it tends to tick players off when they get shafted once too many times. Though from experience it does create some great roleplaying between the party in the rare occurences.
cmas3117 07-13-04, 03:33 PM	I like what the others have said, so this is really just in addition to what's gone before. There's a difference between questioning one's code and breaking it. I have a paladin that is played on a Neverwinter Nights Roleplaying Server (Battledale). Kethry Tyrsdottr is an orphan (I don't usually do the orphan thing, but it works for her) who was found left at a monastery of Tyr in the Stormhorn Mountains. The clerics and paladins of Tyr raised her, and trained her. The direction of her life was to be a shield maiden of Tyr. Now she makes her home in the Dalelands. Over the time of her playing, there have been many times when she has questioned whether the law that she is sworn to uphold should in fact be upheld. Some examples. In the game in which she lives, Zhents have overtaken a nearby town and rule it with an iron fist. Their laws are of course despotic and tyrannical. For this reason and others, she has this internal conflict that basically centers around the question, "Should a law be upheld if it doesn't serve the good of the people?" The answer that Kethry has found through prayer and much consideration is that there is a difference between law and justice. A law should not be upheld if it does not serve the good of the people, but that there are venues for having a law changed that lie within the framework of the law in general. In the time that she has been living in this game, she has not violated her oaths or her code though she has questioned her faith on more than one occasion. As I said, there's a difference, though this rambling post probably doesn't make any sense. cmas.
Dalrath 07-14-04, 11:28 PM	IMHO if by upholding their code someone important to them comes to harm, the paladin would question the validity of their code.
nihility 07-20-04, 11:47 PM	I'm co-DMing a game with an NPC fallen Paladin, and here's what we've got: The initial fall comes as a result of the pally in question getting very drunk after returning from a successful mission in which a number of his comrades died. He is not the type given to excess, but circumstance and company conspired against him. Over the course of the night, he takes part in a number of dishonorable acts, and acts that inadverantly show disrespect to authority. No one thing is very bad, but, as a whole, they constitute a significant breech of his code. No big deal so far; he can just atone, right? But it's not that easy. To atone, you have to accept fault. Due to conflicting stories and other complications, the pally found the accounts of his actions to be both absurd and contradictory. So, now he's being told that he made a fool of himself, disgraced himself, and needs to atone, but he can't believe the claims about what he did. The stories are just too absurd; why should he debase himself over what seems to be a poorly-executed prank? Doubt and pride grow within him. He couldn't have done all this, it's clearly impossible, yet his abilities are gone. Why? Why has he been forsaken? Has his past service been for nothing? And thus he falls. Right now, he's lawful neutral, but what comes next... we'll see ^_^ From here, a character can easily slip to evil. For example, pride and doubt could turn to pride and bitterness, eventually poisoning the heart against others. Or perhaps the character looks higher, to his superiors and other exemplars of good, and finds a rotten core within (perhaps real, perhaps not); this revelation that good merely masks a deeper evil could easily give the final push. Again, the revelation need not be factual, but it does need to be believable.
aleshandre 07-21-04, 02:19 PM	I have seen people in real life go from believing in one religion and changing and turning against it. The realistic path is that the paladin would make several mistakes, most small, but each causes him to doubt, until finally the last straw is an event that shreds the weakened faith, such as a loved one dying or seeing an innocent killed by an enemy, while being powerless to stop it.
Arcen 07-22-04, 03:13 AM	Depending on how huge a circumstance you wanted to make it. Maybe the god to which Paly devoted his entire life and has served with selfless devotion turns his back on the paladin right when he needed it the most. (loved one in peril, etc.)
Drasche 07-22-04, 03:30 AM	Another classic (or cliche) is the mistaken identity. Basically, the paladin, blinded by rage at the gall of his foe, is finally about to catch up with the BBEG. Upon cornering him the paladin strikes him down, only to reveal it was one of the prisoners he had come to save dressed up in an illusion. To boot, it was his wife/king/mentor/etc. Sure, he might atone, but the mental scar would haunt him for the rest of his life.
Kitt-su 07-28-04, 01:19 AM	Or maybe the paladin sees that his life(In his eyes) is turning into doing every little thing people themselves are to lazy to do themselves. Since hes such a ro-model and all he couldn't possibly yell at everyone to do the smaller things themselves( ex. "Go kill the goblins yourselves you wussies! Theres 20 of them and like 50 of you in this village and the surrounding area!") So eventually he stops being a paladin (Takes fighter levels). The character wouldn't notice. Eventually he sees the people that he had to constantly baby sit as the people that are the real problem in the world and turns his sword to them in the name of ridding the world of such laziness(Blackguard levels). From there on its the blackguard slaughtering the innocent for his own evil greater good. Those who stop him are wrong in his getting rid of the laziness. His mount becoming twisted and evil is just an improvment on the old on, and his ability to tear down the lazy folk (Smite good) is just another blessing.