Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AlfaMale26 06-20-03, 08:55 PM	It seems like ever since this board lost the name of "Roleplaying Forum" that it's darn near died. What happened to all of the roleplayers out there? I used to get (and hopefully give) some good advice on this board. There have got to be some good ideas still floating around out there. So why all the silence? Is the forum name "Character Development" too vague a concept for posting roleplaying ideas? As an example, I am currently THE ONLY PERSON logged onto this board!!! That's truly a sad state of affairs -- especially when I switch over to the "Optimization" board and see 10+ people logged on! Then you compare the number of total posts -- about 150 on this board and over 800 on the Optimization board! Come on! ROLEPLAYERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!! Is there anyone out there? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :confused: edit: added stats comparing activity on the two boards
ShadeGirl 06-20-03, 10:04 PM	:( Many people feel the same way you do. It is an unfortunate truth, I'm afraid.
Kexizzoc 06-20-03, 10:14 PM	Arg... kids these days with your video games... Ah who am I kidding, I play Warcraft III non-stop! Seriously though, maybe it's just my view as an all-time DM, but I see D&D in a very different way than most people (I think). To me, D&D is not a game in and of itself, and you certainly can't "win". I view D&D as a way to tell a story... any system would do, as long as it's like the "stories". Hell, if I found GURPS to be more like the "stories", as well as more fun, I'd be playing GURPS right now! And, of course, by the "stories" I mean Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and all other fantasy literature in general. In the stories, no one develops the ulitmate spell combo against mass combat based on some rules loophole... so I don't expect that out of my players. Perhaps I'm asking too much, but I hate all powergaming with a passion. The player should be taking those monk levels because he wants a ninja-style character, not because "check it... if I combine my unarmed strike with my sneak attack, due to the rule on pg.7 of the DMG and pg.2366 of the PHB, I can deal 30 extra damage! Huzzah! My rogue is better than the rest of the party and outshines them, I win!" Anyway, that's just my two cents.
AlfaMale26 06-20-03, 11:50 PM	Ah, be still my heart! Multiple signs of life on this board!!! :rofl: But seriously, it is good to hear that I'm not the only dejected roleplayer lurking around here. It seems like much more than a coincidence to me that this board lost its viality simultaneous to the name change. (Any Wiz_O paying attention here? HINT... HINT!) Originally posted by Kexizzoc ...maybe it's just my view as an all-time DM, but I see D&D in a very different way than most people (I think). To me, D&D is not a game in and of itself, and you certainly can't "win". I view D&D as a way to tell a story... [snip] I hate all powergaming with a passion. The player should be taking those monk levels because he wants a ninja-style character, not because "check it... if I combine my unarmed strike with my sneak attack, due to the rule on pg.7 of the DMG and pg.2366 of the PHB, I can deal 30 extra damage! Huzzah! My rogue is better than the rest of the party and outshines them, I win!" For the sake of keeping dialogue alive, I'll respond to your comments, Kexizzoc. I too DM frequently (50% of the time on a rotating DM basis) but still get to play often enough that I enjoy building a powerful character too. I find nothing wrong with gaining the benefits of multiclassing, so long as the player (or myself) has an IN-CHARACTER reason for the multi-classing. The problem, as you astutely pointed out, is that the "new generation" seems fixated on power for power's sake alone. Hopefully (and I suspect this to be the case), this is a phase through which some (but not all) of the power-gamers will pass. I admit to having transgressed into this mold at one point many moons ago myself. I liken it to the gaming equivalent of adolescence -- enough knowledge to demonstrate bravado and showmanship, but not enough experience to exhibit subtlety and wisdom. At one point I would've absolutely loved to have my run of items from the DMG, but let me illustrate how much of a let-down that power-gaming has become for me. Up until this past week, EVERY campaign in my two decades of D&D playing had my PC's begin at first-level. I NEVER had a character advance past twelfth level -- be it because of character death or a dropped campaign. But this past week we began a high-level campaign -- everyone started at 15th, each fully decked out with 200,000gp worth of magical goodies. In less than one round our party of four absolutely obliterated a Frost Worm. RIDICULOUS! It wasn't even fun. It really struck a cord right then and there -- start me at 1st level and throw a horde of kobolds or goblins at me. At least I can write a good journal about that. But the journal entry for this encounter goes something like: "An ugly worm reared up from the frozen ground, and we dispatched it forthwith." As you said, this was not a "win" it was a cakewalk and it allowed for ZERO roleplay. Of course, I'm sure there are some fiends and dragons lurking around out there for us...
Dreamstryder 06-21-03, 12:36 AM	Maybe it's just that people have more problems min/maxing than roleplaying. That's why it's quiet. The first time I perused the rules of D&D, I thought, well, besides This is confusing...(1e), was Whoa, like in Final Fantasy! I turned out OK. In fact, Final Fantasy was one of the things that introduced me to the world of Fantasy RPGs (I used to write down spells on paper and go out to the playground with my friends to fight monsters before I'd even touched a book of D&D or seen an actual game). Now some of these games are pretty big on the characters/setting (ie Xenosaga). It's about the interaction: some like to get to improve themselves skill-wise, some enjoy the special effects, some like getting new stuff, some like listening to the story... Anyway, they're out there. What kind of threads do you want us to start?
Lord of the Ninth 06-21-03, 03:30 AM	"Is anybody there? Does anybody care?" Yeah, LotN is here. I'll probably be participating these boards more, I was beginning to get sick of Meta, and nothing ever happened on PS... So lets go fix the RP board!
Epicuris 06-21-03, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by AlfaMale26 Is there anyone out there? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Testify, brother! Testify! While I am new to these boards, I've been playing D&D for longer than I care to admit. When we first started, my group didn't seem to care if they got every drop of power out of their characters. They seemed to relish their weaknesses and glorify their strengths. Unfortunately, now I'm playing with power gamers. They look at me strange if I choose a half-elf for a race or think of rolling up a bard. "How can you stand to be so weak?" one of them asked me. I didn't think I was so weak when some quick thinking and proper decision making got our butts out of the flames instead of a carelessly thrown fireball. But, cei' la vie. What are you going to do?
magicmarker13 06-22-03, 08:33 PM	preach on preach on.... the problem with power gaming and munchkining is the way d20 dnd is set up, you have level progression, what do you get each level, more stuff... stuff stuff stuff, to do what with? battle battle battle, my rogue has plus 8d6 sneak attack, my sorcerer casts fireballs now, i can finally cast storm of vengence and obliterate entire villages... huzzah! it's just what you get when you have a level based progression. my advice on making a character is think first long and hard about who the character is and where they came from... and only after you've gotten all the little details down, is when you even open a sourcebook. It's so much more rewarding playing with a character you like, regardless of whether it has the right feats or not, than playing a mindless meteor swarm chucking automaton. when you create a big ole sorcerer whose only spells are things like meteor swarm and the like you are setting yourself up even though you don't realize it, against the dm, we're all in this together, if you play long enough with characters you care about, you have fun, the dm has fun, and everybody knows their limits, a good dm will not chuck ancient wyrms at you just 'cause you meet the CL a good player won't put the dm in a situation where he or she has to stoop to the level munckining. writing ever increasing numbers on a piece of paper is really not that fun, ROLE PLAYING is.
SputnikCorp 06-22-03, 09:18 PM	in the earlier editions, we had a more loose interpretation of the rules. in the 1st ed. dmg in the closing afterwords, mr. gygax wrote: "it is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyers to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game." wise words to go by and something that i hold up today. todays new gamers are so structured, having been raised on computer games and rules intensive card games that they figure the only way to play this game is by the numbers of the stats and the exact wording of the rules. give the new kids a few years under their belt. let them be exposed to us veterans either through their own groups or on these boards. they'll figure it out. good role-playing takes time.
Mr. VanderMeer 06-23-03, 05:34 AM	The Min/Max board (Optimization now) has always been a lot busier. Apparantly people are more interested in that field. I like this one better, but I must say some people on the Optimization board have an impressive knowledge of character creation. I like the min/maxing a little as well, but the Roleplaying is more important. I guess, slowly this board will fill up, too. ( I hope so :D )
Ankhalab 06-23-03, 01:10 PM	Never posted on the roleplaying forum but I did read loads of posts on the old board. So... hi there :D I'll be posting here regulary (I think so at least) so you guys got a new guy. :P I feel your pain. The world is filled with powergamers... the horror... the horror...
Kexizzoc 06-23-03, 01:11 PM	Someone on the D&D General board was asking how they could be a good role-player... I made a response, it's actually quite poetic (well, not really... but that's a cool thing to say:D ). Here is is: "Hm... a tricky question indeed. I think this would get better response in the "Character Development" board, but I'm no one to lecture on what goes where. Put it in both, if you like. Anyway, your question. Firstly, what made you think you were a powergamer in the first place? Like, what types of powergaming actions were you commiting? Don't worry, admitting you have a problem is the first step I find the best way to good role-playing is to love your character. (please, don't confuse this with becoming your character, or killing yourself when you character dies because you can't live without him, etc.). Being involved with your character; excited when the suceed, upset when they fail, and so on; helps a lot with role-playing. This is going to start a huge debate if we get into a "What is Powergaming" discussion, but I'll give you an example; my older brother. Kyrantor, his character, has been with us since we first played D&D (I usually DM). He was a magic-user back in 2nd edition, a sorcerer for a bit in 3rd, and in our lastest campaign, he is a cansin (chaotic planetouched) psion. Now, this isn't really the same character, just the same name and same style of role-playing. Anyway, this campaign has really given Kyrantor a chance to look towards the future, and inspect his possibilities. And, by Oghma, he has. Kyrantor now aspires to create a huge academy for psions, and build his own city under this floating citadel of crystal. He has mapped out his character's progression to 48th level, designed his own magic items which shoot darts and exploding crossbow bolts, and made his own psionic powers. Kyrantor is currently 5th level. This kind of behavior alone should be labeled as powergaming (exploding crossbow bolts? You gotta be kidding). However, with powergaming, it's the intention that counts. My brother doesn't want to be the best in the group, and outshine the others, thereby "winning" D&D. He is role-playing. We just can't play often enough to catch up to his aspirations for his character This kind of behavior could be a nightmare for a DM. However, I just need to make sure that the stuff he does is within the boundries of the rules (and I sure as hell make sure they are... exploding crossbow bolts...), and I'm pretty much cool with it. You want a flying academy? Sure! All you need now is...let's see... epic level, and and the right amount of gold. He's not pulling loopholes in the rules to get a flying academy by 6th level, so I'm happy. In the meantime, he's working towards his lofty goals, adventuring, having a good time...and everyone's happy. That's more or less why we play D&D, isn't it?"
Lord Harley 06-23-03, 08:48 PM	hey all,I would rather spend some time in here discussing the finer points of "role" playing other than "Roll" playing. I haven't played table top D&D in 9 years, and I know nothing of 3e, except what I have read here. it seems that there is alot more rules in 3e than there were in 2e. In 2e there were "kits" about 3 little special powers, and that was it. now with what I read the PrCs have ton of powers, and new rules to use them out the kazzoo. In 2e I remember me as the DM telling the player to roll a 20d against a stat with a + or - to it, and that was it, he did it or not, there was no rule to it. I left the fold right when the skills and powers books came out, they had too much "rules" on how to do stuff. and it got complicated.
Barrid 06-24-03, 04:26 PM	Be patient....powergamers tend to not stick around for very long. They game for devastation's sake until they run out of "options." "I've already made a Fire Genasi/Troll Rogue/Fighter/Lasher/Wizard/Incantrix....I think I'll go play X instead" Eventually they either become more of a role player or they move on to the new game out of boredom. There'll always be a new crop, but the core of D&D is going to be the people who play the game because they love it and not because its a distraction or something to do. These are the gamers who play with their husbands/wives, these are the gamers who go to bed at 5 am and have to wake up in 2 hours for work, these are the gamers who give Gygax a run for his money in longevity. I'm not married and I've only been playing off and on since early 2e, but I sure look like hell at work. :cool: I can't stand making a character that I didn't play from Lvl 1. I don't feel connected. In the end I get ambivalent over if he even lives or dies. Its sad. I'd rather be the torchboy, lackey or follower of the party than start out at mid/high levels. In any case, I think these character spotlights that have been posted on the main page are great for RPing. People read these backstories and really understand how a good character is created. Often these characters are multiclassed with excellent explanations for why the multiclassing was done. Leading by example....its the only way to do it. Showing someone how they are "wrong" never works because there's no wrong way to play. Just show them how your way works and they will learn how much enjoyment can come from it. And maybe, if you lead well, their gaming experience won't be a fad...it will turn into something more.
Lord Harley 06-24-03, 07:20 PM	well said Barrid
Barrid 06-25-03, 02:07 AM	You should try 3e Lord Hartley....its actually much more simplistic than it seems. Attacks of Opportunity are really the only hard/confusing thing, everything else, including BAB instead of Thac0 is about as easy as pie. In a nutshell, 3e is the player rolling a d20 against the DM's d20. Opposed rolls rule the d20 system. I'd give it a shock just out of sheer whynotness, 3.5 is coming out soon and you may even enjoy what you've been avoiding. G'luck to ya man...
Lord Harley 06-25-03, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by Barrid You should try 3e Lord Hartley....its actually much more simplistic than it seems. Attacks of Opportunity are really the only hard/confusing thing, everything else, including BAB instead of Thac0 is about as easy as pie. In a nutshell, 3e is the player rolling a d20 against the DM's d20. Opposed rolls rule the d20 system. I'd give it a shock just out of sheer whynotness, 3.5 is coming out soon and you may even enjoy what you've been avoiding. G'luck to ya man... you know how life takes you in different directions. not really avoiding it. back in the day with HS and all I had all the time in the world to play. with college, military, losing contact with all those people, never really found anyone to play. still played BG and BG II on the PC, and FF on the playstation. and read some of the new D&D novels etc. I have always walked into the WotC stores every once and a while. looked at the 3e books. saw that it was alot more different than 2e was compared to 1e (almost the same). never looked at RPG message boards till last week. it's almost like I was in the dark ages of RPGing. with no internet at the time. I remember making a character sheet on a 386 PC. now I have a 1.1G that is almost 3 years old. none of my friends play, and most of then wouldn't, couldn't if they wanted too. I always told myself I would buy the PHB just to flip through. Now I am glad I didn't. I know I will be buying 3.5 when it comes out. I am going to be trying one of the online role playing games soon. if I get into that I might try to find a mature group around where I live. I could fit in a few hours a week. I did go to barnes and nobles the othe day and sat down and read the DMG and some FR stuff. the PHB was gone. interesting stuff. I think the best thing I liked was the XP thing. I am still not sure about PrCs, they seem so powerful compared to the old "kits" in 2e. And THACO, I think I am going to miss that. BTW what is BAB? also it's Lord Harley, as in "Harley Davidson" later LH
Barrid 06-25-03, 05:03 PM	Sorry, I should cut and paste names...I'm a notorious projector of my own thoughts onto names. BAB is Base Attack Bonus. Its one of the modifiers added to your attack to see if you hit the AC of an opponent (which is positive in 3e instead of negative). Basically, its now a Difficulty Check instead of being its own special rule. I was never a big fan of negative AC anyways...seemed wrong that less was more. Yeah, a slot of PrCs tend to get crazy, but at least they're optional. They originally were made to allow someone to specialize in a certain trait of their class, thus becoming more powerful. You had to give up certain things that were inherent to the class, just like an Opposed School for a Wizard. Now, many of them seem to be shortcuts to multiclassing without having the EXP penalties and other difficulties associated with it. I restrict them heavily in my games and only allow them if the player RPs in that direction. No powergaming allowed. I have definite ideas about how games should be run, which is probably why I don't DM very often (that and I lack orginizational skills...I need a cohort). The players chafe at the restrictions at first because nothing has ever really been prhoibited from them before and losing a freedom, even one you never use, is hard to swallow. Once we get going there's never been a problem.
Lord Harley 06-25-03, 06:38 PM	""""Sorry, I should cut and paste names...I'm a notorious projector of my own thoughts onto names."""" no prob. what confuses me is people that talk about their 10 level fighter/monk/cleric/ranger with the deulest/bladesinger/college professor PrCs. I was wondering why they re-created the barbarian class. with PrCs its something you "grow-into", It makes sense. I can't just go "today I want to be a barbarian" how does XP levels and multi-classing/ duel-class work? can I still be a elven fighter/mage? or do I have to be a fighter switch to mage, and then switch back later? I would go to barnes and noble and read the PHB, but I can't even do that!!! been to two B&N in my area and both don't have the PHB, the one time were I would sit down and read it it is gone!!! thanks for helping the "newbe". LH
Barrid 06-25-03, 07:10 PM	Grab the SRD if you wanna read more...its flavorless but has the vital tidbits...I'd be happy to answer more questions, however reading might be faster. SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) (Just click cancel when the PW screen pops up). OK, Dual classing works like this: You have to keep the levels that separate the two classes down to 1 or less or suffer an EXP penalty. You no longer earn exp simultaneously for each level like in 2e. Your character levels and he can choose what class he levels in. Class abilities go off off class levels. So if an ability means you need to be Rogue 3, just being a 3rd level character doesn't meet the pre-req. But other abilities are based off of character levels. Max Skill Ranks, Ability Score increases, etc. When your character level reaches the point that you can gain it, you got it. All abilities gained between two classes are cumulative. Each race has a favored class to help eliminate EXP penalties. For Elves, FC is Wizard. Favored classes do not count towards EXP penalties when multiclassing so you could be a Fighter9/Wizard 1 or you could even be a Wizard 10/Fighter2/Rogue1 without incurring penalties...as long as Fighter and Rogue stay within 1 class level of each other. (Ie Fgt4/Rogue2 would incur the penalty, which is 20% for each class that incurs a penalty) With FC you can take those levels at any time and not have them count towards any EXP penalty. Basically you pretend like that class doesn't exist. Humans and Half-Elves have "any" as favored class. The class you have the most ranks in is your FC for that level. PrCs do not count towards multiclass penalties because they are extensions of a previous class. Which is why people use them to skip penalties. The open-endedness of what class a PrC is actually an extension of allows for skipping. As long as you meet the prerequisites for a PrC, you can take it. Monks and Paladins don't usually multiclass (though they can gain PrCs) because once you take a level in a different class, you can never take levels in Pal or Mnk again. You can make a new thread if you like, we've hijacked this one...just lemme know whre you put it. :)
Otto the Bugbear 06-25-03, 09:02 PM	Originally posted by Ankhalab I feel your pain. The world is filled with powergamers... the horror... the horror... One thing that I feel I have to point out (not specifically to you Ankhalab, just as a general statement ;) ), is that there are probably a lot less powergamers than many on these boards believe. One problem is that when we meet a "normal" and "good" roleplayer, it doesn't stick in people's minds nearly so well as the (often young) player with the ridiculous character. I realize that with one look through the optimization board, it really skews the picture of how many people "powergame" and how many roleplay. (Wow that word leaves a bad taste in my mouth!) It may seem that everyone and their brother is playing a half-troll, half-black dragon, shade, fighter, barbarian, frenzied berserker, runescarred berserker, etc., but I'd be willing to bet that less people actually play those character than write about them. I myself participate mainly on the Character Optimization board. I've helped build some truly nasty characters and posted them over there. However, that does NOT mean that I play those type of characters. In point of fact, I recently realized that I tend to curb my min/max techniques maybe too much when creating characters to play. In our 7 person group -- 6 characters, 1 DM -- my current guy is second to last on the group's power scale. And none of the other players know that much about min/maxing at all. Oh, they'll sometimes ask me about a powerful trick, and I answer honestly, but the super-duper stuff from the CO board never gets used. For reference, our current party consists of: 8th level human sorcerer 7th level elven fighter (archer) / Order of Bow Initiate 2 8th (or 9th) level half-orc barbarian 8th (or 9th) level human cleric 8th level human fighter / rogue (me) 7th level elven rogue / thief-acrobat 1 Nothing special, and in fact not too far off the iconic party plus 2 now that I think about it. + + + + + + + + + + + Okay, two things I have to mention. I really wish people would stop slamming their fellow gamers. You know we're not exactly a large group by many standards, yet there are a lot of people that feel they must look down their noses at the "powergamers" as if they're in inferior species. Gimme a break here :rolleyes: I understand if you want to encourage these types of players to try more in-depth roleplaying. However, there are a lot of comments made that can hardly be considered convincing where this topic is concerned. What I urge anyone that has made these comments to do is simple. Instead of the sarcastic, rude, and elitist comments, try to imagine that these people are having fun playing the game their way. Try to imagine that they will indeed outgrow that style of playing the game. Encourage them through positive, not negative, comments that roleplaying is just as fun and satisfying as rollplaying. I'd be willing to bet that not everyone that's made those negative comments started out by buying the books and jumping right into in-depth roleplaying. I've noticed that a lot of people go through a sort of progression in the many years that they, and indeed myself, have gamed. What was my progression? 1. Noob -- a lot of people would probably call this the munchkin stage; My bastard sword does 8d8 damage and we just killed tiamat with my strength of 24 (1/2ed game - which meant that was nearly maximum) 2. rollplayer (powergamer) -- this is the stage that all me and my group could concieve of was fighting our way through endless dungeons with only a subtle nod toward plot, storyline, and characters with character. 3. gamer -- better plots, better characters, better flow to the game. This is probably the one a lot of people are hoping the powergamers evolve into; and look, it worked on me! 4. In-depth Roleplayer! -- Probably not as in-depth as some of the regulars on this board, but here is where we were more interested in developing our characters than going out to slay more beasties and collect more treasure. During this stage, I found myself feeling similarly toward the "powergaming munchkins" as some people have indicated they do. 5. Have fun!!! -- This is probably where I find myself now. I've abandoned the high and mighty platform that the elitists occupy and instead I focus on playing how game how I enjoy it. I realize that the intent is to have fun, no matter what style you play the game. I'm sure there are other stages that other people have gone through, but this was my journey. Also, since getting through the first two stages (becomming an adult along the way), I've met probably 10 times the number of non-powergamers than I've met that do powergame. I guess that's my message, people can and will evolve through different styles of gaming and there's only one need I can see that would be fulfilled by the talking down to those "powergaming munchkins" -- the need to make yourself feel superior to someone else. Two quotes come to mind from these boards for some reason. I'm not sure how well they relate to this subject, but: "It's a game, err on the side of fun." -- can't remember who made this quote! :mad: & "Easy. You win at this game by making more fun for those around you." -- Fixxer Or something similar to that! Oh, and Barrid. Great job on that explanation. :cool: Cheers Otto :)
Ankhalab 06-25-03, 10:06 PM	I see yer point otto, and you're probably right. I was a powergamer once but it only took me half of a campaing to feel how empty powergaming can be. When we got to the half of the campaing, I just couldn't stand my character anymore so the DM let me make a new one and this character had a background, contacts and friends. I had LOADS of fun playing him, even if he didn't have the best feats and the best stats. That day I realized how cool was to have a full character. I've been playing d&d for only 1 year and I can't build characters with no background anymore. It's just that one of my groups really gets on my nerves! They couldn't care less about anything but loot, killing, and min/max their character. One guy even has something like 4 classes on his character and his aiming for a uber-PrC (or so he says). On top of that, their characters have absolutely no background. I play a cleric on this group and I'm the weakest character but it's not a problem though since I have a lot of fun playing him. But, I would have more fun if all group roleplayed, something, i beleive, they don't even know what it means. I tried to incourage them to roleplay but I was almost laughed at. The DM and me are the only ones to roleplay. The rest of the group is ALWAYS talking out of character. I guess it's their way of gaming... if they like it, so be it. I just hope they realize how empty powergaming can be so they can turn to roleplayers. Thanks for letting me share. :)
stembolt 06-25-03, 10:49 PM	First off Min/Maxing(Optimization) is not the antithesis of roleplaying. In fact the best min/maxers tend to be the best roleplayers. Powergaming is...actually I have no idea what it is. It is one of those words that is sometimes a swear (like munchkin) and sometimes an exclamation point. Optimization and Development are the two halves of the complete roleplaying package. One side the mechanics, the other side the story. Each and every character, without exception, incorporates both of these elements. Without optimization you have a story, without development you have a stat block. As for this board being popular my suggestion is to have some good threads. Sit down right now and type out a good thread. Then go to thee or 4 other threads and give insightful comments there.
Snow Savant 06-25-03, 11:52 PM	Hey Folks, I'm one of the more common posters over on the C.O. board. And it finally dawned on me that since my primary calling to RPG's is roleplaying, I should be spending more time on the C.D. board. It's nice to see folks like Stembolt and Otto posting in here ... I have respect for both of them in regards to their insight and quality output they have posted over at C.O. I can tell you that the core cadre of C.O. residents have a respect for this forum. And often you will see a comment posted to a misplaced thread to venture over here to get more keen insight on character development from the superstars over here. Keep in mind too, we have a strong group of "character developers" in our area as well. Many folks can write up some absolutely electric background stories, career resumes, and flavour descriptions to match the elegant (and at times, complex) components of a detailed build. Meshing complex mechanics and plausibility is tough, yet for a bunch of perceived "number crunchers", you'd be surprised at how good they are! Anyway, thanks for your time. I hope to post more here in the future and I'll try to spread the good word to do the same for others in the C.O. forum. Please come by and visit us too. I wish there was some way we could have some sort of collaborative venture between our groups ... although I think the best we can do is to evangelize each other's strengths and make sure our 2 groups survive and prosper together. Take care. Snow :cloud9:
KotJC_Enigma42 06-26-03, 12:06 AM	The reason I see a lot more posts over at C.O. board rather than here is that its easier to talk about numbers, mechanics, and rules, than less solid topics such as character development and roleplaying. I personally am some where in a nebulous stage: a bit of powergamer (not nearly as good as Otto, Snow, and the others... in training still), a bit of a role player ( I remember one session a few months ago that went by with very few rolls. It was great.), and a bit of confused... But hey, its all about growing up so to speak, I've only been playing since last septemeber. But yeah, I think the main reason we get more posts at character optimization is that is easier to talk about solid, concrete topics, instead of nebulous discussions of roleplaying and story. And the weird arrangement of the new boards doesn't help. Its HARD to find the link to these boards...
Barrid 06-26-03, 06:44 AM	Just to reiterate something I said earlier, leading by example is the best way you can get people to roleplay. RP isn't the be-all end-all of gaming, but for many, its the most satisfying since you can min/max AND roleplay at the same time. They aren't mutually exclusive. The current trend in RP is to make your character severely handicapped in some way. Make your adventurer the strongest you possibly can. Only the strong, smart and lucky survive....Depending on just luck means the odds are against you (and making it harder to get lucky btw :cool:) Anyways, everyone here has had some great points. I just wanted to post again because for some reason Otto's post made me think of the first time I ever went to the RenFaire. This was way back when it was mostly re-enactors running around on the plain shooting each other with flintlocks and the kissing bridge actually straddled a stream. Anywho, I went in shorts and a t-shirt with my buddy, we musta been like 13. We were 2 out of like a dozen people NOT in period (or very close) costume. I have only gone back ONCE in all these years since out of costume. This last time I didn't get my new gillies from Scotland in time so I didn't bother to even put my kilt on (I'm getting bad :D ). Ok, this just goesback to my previous point. As a Jr High kid there was no way I was gonna dress up in a shirt or in some ruffled shirt and wear leggings or something. Seeing all these people there made me want to do it because A) I wanted to fit in when I went back, and B) because it was no longer embarrassing to do. Maybe some powergamer in your group is one badly done Scottish impression away from being a good roleplayer. Give it your lusty best.
Darnek Wyrnin 06-26-03, 08:14 AM	The main reason why I don't post in CD is because I like "Storytelling" better. Still haven't played in this way with others, but I do it instead of role playing. The way it works is, The Dm tells the main story and the players tell the story of their character. Tell out loud what they do, say, their facial expressions at situations. their posture etc. This way it get's more like a book and a story. The players know what the others are doing and know more about the things that goes on around them. Everybody who plays roleplaying games imagines what their character does and how they say it and I think this would also make thing easier for those who can't roleplay or are afraid to do it. One of the biggest faults in roleplaying I've seen, is when a players character dies and the other don't even roleplay the loss of a compadre(why do?, another one will come along shortly). Mainly this is because(I belive), even though the a player has used this character for months and maybe even years, the other players really don't know the character. his positive sides, his faults or his habbits(annoing or positive ones). Story telling could help this alot, I belive and would form closer character bonds. It will also help those"Powergamers"(Don't like words like powergamers, munshkin and n00b) get more involved in the world where they play. Has anyone played this kind of game before? If so, how did it work out?
AlfaMale26 06-26-03, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by stembolt First off Min/Maxing(Optimization) is not the antithesis of roleplaying. In fact the best min/maxers tend to be the best roleplayers. Okay, well it looks like we've got some discourse going here. (Thank the gods.) When I stared this thread, I did not, by any means, wish to imply that there is a hard and fast delineation between min/maxing and roleplaying. In fact, I'm living testimony to the contrary, having gone through a developmental process much like that that Otto posted. I've been playing D&D since the introduction of 2e about two decades ago. I consider myself both a min/maxer AND a good roleplayer. (I min/max my character builds from level 1-20 before ever playing the PC; then I proceed to roleplay the PC in depth as far as the campaign allows, or until the character meets its untimely demise.) What I wished to explore here was why this board has been so silent. Enigma 42, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that it's easier to talk about builds and mechanics. I personally feel it's easier to talk about topics like "How do I best play X alignment?" Unfortunately I think there is just more interest in talking mechanics and builds. But I fully agree with Otto (based on his experience, my experience, and the experience of many others) that MANY ofthe game-mechanics are or will ultimately gravitate to in-depth roleplaying. Now, if we can just get them to keep posting to the CD board, all will be right with the world.
Lord Harley 06-26-03, 11:59 AM	"""You can make a new thread if you like, we've hijacked this one...just lemme know whre you put it.""" thanks Barrid reading that link answered most of my questions. about getting this board going. lets try something like a thread name. "How to be a Roleplayer Vol 1." and start a roleplaying question in there, I am sure we all have them. something like "how can I get my NE rogue, to work well in a party with a LG paladin?" I am sure to seasoned RPers all have ideas on that one. or "101 real reasons my 1st level Drow fighter is on the surface" I think I might throw some of those ideas on their own threads. LH
Andion Isurand 06-26-03, 02:10 PM	Too many who are coming into D&D these days, come from the 'Land of Video and Card Games' rather than the the 'Land of Books and Novels' like they did in the early days of D&D. Hopefully, after a while, each newbie will come to understand the more enriching experience of playing D&D as a story, not a video game.
Redyak 06-26-03, 02:15 PM	I don't know why no one goes to this forum, it's always been one of my favorites to read (and post occasionally ;) ). I would say it's harder to find after the new WOTC boards came up, but so is the Optimization forum, which kills off that particular argument. :rolleyes: The other things I'm thinking of is that for many people, roleplaying their character is more of a personal matter. Many good roleplayers, the type who like to use this forum, have solid, fleshed-out characters and need no one else's help about developing them. That cancels a lot of questions that other boards usually have. But anyway, that might not even be the case, I'm just trying to throw out a possibility. The only thing we can do to "fix" this forum is to post more, which I'm going to go do now, as a matter of fact.
Otto the Bugbear 06-26-03, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Barrid Just to reiterate something I said earlier, leading by example is the best way you can get people to roleplay. Amen brother. Originally posted by Barrid The current trend in RP is to make your character severely handicapped in some way. Not to dispute what you've seen, but this is hardly a current trend. It was about 10 years ago that I was distancing myself from the super-in-depth crowd for a more fun oriented game. Even back then that was a big time trend. Sure it was amusing to play a paladin with a dexterity of 8, but failing a dex check while crossing a stream, that's 4 inches deep and running over bedrock, falling in and taking damage hardly advances the story. More like it highllights the blunders of the heroes rather than their heroics. Anyway, it's been around awhile and I've yet to figure out why. :) Ankhalab, regarding that character with 4 classes... Is it really the fact that he has 4 classes that is the problem, or does the problem lie somewhere else? Perhaps all he can do is talk about how his character will own the game, or be more powerful than anyone else. Perhaps it's really because he has a character without character. Perhaps it's becuase he never roleplays. I don't know and can only speculate that it's some or all of these things. I dare say that it's possible that you could play a game where all the players had 4 class characters and as long as they were good roleplayers, this would never become an issue. Now that I think about it, I shouldn't have even put the OotBI and Thief-Acrobat on the characters in my group. They should have been listed as Rogue and Archer, plain and simple. They should be defined by what they do, not what's written on the top of their character sheet. (For the record, the archer did contact the Order of the Bow to gain the class and there was some roleplaying about it.) Imagine a game where you played with all your favorite posters from this board. The roleplaying would be great, story is great, characters are interesting and fully fleshed out with a history, family, enemies, allies (non-party of course), and a home. Would it matter if someone was a barbarian / ranger / rogue / holy liberator or not? If the roleplaying was such that you never knew about the extra classes, you could almost assume a character like that was some sort of chaotic paladin. Or perhaps a fighter/cleric. Or perhaps anything you could imagine. One of my favorite characters is one that I started way back when 2ed was it and there wasn't even a rumor of 3ed coming out. Once I converted him, he ended up as a barbarian 4 / fighter 4 / ranger 3. The history that I'd developed with this character practically dictated to me that he be built along these lines, or something similar. Short version: started out as a warrior capable of berserker rages (home-brew class - berserker), learned discipline while traveling with his party, eventually fell in love with a druid and was converted to protecting the natural landscapes he basically ignored before. I haven't played him in years, but one thing that will remain part of his character is how he doesn't rage anymore (go berserk in old system). The only time it would willingly happen was when a friend was injured severely or killed. :) Last thing for this post ;) This board has always had less travel than the C.O. board. I agree that it has more to do with the subjective qualities associated with creating a character's character, so to speak. :D Mostly, people that have made a good character are reluctant to post it, thus reduced traffic here compared to many other boards. Maybe they're afraid it will get pummeled and picked apart. Maybe they just don't want to take the effort (that's me). I think Redyak got it right with what he said, so I'll shut my mouth now. I'd also like to say that I prefer to have a little reduced traffic if it means we don't have to put up with some of the junk that's seen on other boards. Just an opinion, but some of those other ones are just plain rotten to visit. BTW, both this board and the C.O. board have less traffic than they did on the old board. Both are coming back up to their former levels, so maybe it was just a matter of time. Cheers Otto :)
Barrid 06-26-03, 06:49 PM	Heh...boy, do I tend to over-generalize. I believe I meant "current" in the galactic sense. :rolleyes: I wasn't much of a player 10 years ago...In fact, at that point I was on hiatus, so I wasn't in the pipeline of information. I personally don't see any handicapping, but I am aware of the phenomenon, both currently (CURRENTLY! :D ) and in the past. I guess what I meant to say is that handicapping was the "newest" conceit to the uber-roleplayer. It was, and is (in my eyes), king of the hill for signs of elitism. I honestly can say I don't see many of these people because I tend to avoid them and their threads. I feel no need to justify my gaming to them or to hear them rag on others about how they play. If I knew the person personally and wanted to razz him, that's one thing, but to stand on an internet soapbox denouncing a style of play is just, well, stupid.
Frodo Lives 06-26-03, 11:55 PM	I agree that role playing and roll playing do not have to be mutually exclusive (who ho big words!) and I do have problems with munchkins, but not power gamers. In my definitions a Munckins: Players who make characters with no background, idea, or overall concept, just make the numbers work out to the best possible comination, no matter how silly it looks Powergamers: Players who want to play powerful characters, but still respect that this is a game that's not just about hack and slash and my char can kick your char into next week but hey whatever floats your boat, if you and the people you play with want to play in a munchkin campaign, then go ahead, and if your group is having fun then good for you. It's when you get on player min maxing to the extremes and the rest who want to roleplay, then you've got problems As for me, I love this board and the What's a DM to do board. It gives me insight on how others play and gives me ideas to incorporate into mine. Long Live Role Playing
Ankhalab 06-27-03, 05:28 AM	Otto, the problem is not him having 4 classes on his character but having 4 classes, no background and just getting those 4 classes in order to get to the prestige class sooner. He doesn't roleplay because how can one roleplay an undeveloped character? It's like those people who get a ranger level just for the virtual feats and don't even have the decency of justifying why would their character get a level of ranger. See my point? This guy (and the others I mentioned) don't even worry about creating their charactes personality. To me, that's where the problem lies. Imagine a game where you played with all your favorite posters from this board. The roleplaying would be great, story is great, characters are interesting and fully fleshed out with a history, family, enemies, allies (non-party of course), and a home. Would it matter if someone was a barbarian / ranger / rogue / holy liberator or not? If the roleplaying was such that you never knew about the extra classes, you could almost assume a character like that was some sort of chaotic paladin. Or perhaps a fighter/cleric. Or perhaps anything you could imagine. That would be great. That's all i'd like to see in my group, people reloplaying. I wouldn't mind about their characters build as long as they roleplayed and that the build is close to what their character really is.
Darnek Wyrnin 06-27-03, 05:58 AM	My opinion is that classes and personality are two very different things. And it's also very funny to play a class and act in a total different way. If you like playing stereotypes, thats fine with me, but I sure don't think theres much fun in that. Your classes don't define your character, his personality does!
AlfaMale26 06-27-03, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by Redyak The other things I'm thinking of is that for many people, roleplaying their character is more of a personal matter. Many good roleplayers, the type who like to use this forum, have solid, fleshed-out characters and need no one else's help about developing them. VERY good point, and one that hadn't occurred to me before. I would agree that personal backgrounds and character stories are typically handled by IDRPers on ther own, with only minimal solicitation of assistance. I also think there may be another factor. It seems like this board is frequented much more by the "old guard" of players, myself included. I've found many of the RP-based questions from newbies seem to pop up in the "What's a Player To Do" forum. So, I'm going to make a concerted effort henceforth to direct some more newbies from that board to this one. (I'll consider it my own little IDRP recruiting effort.) :D Granted, some of their querries may seem simplistic to us vets, but we were all there once too. If we make a good effort to answer even some of the simpler questions, maybe we can build some more momentum on the CD boards. Can I get an "Amen"?
Otto the Bugbear 06-27-03, 02:49 PM	Originally posted by Ankhalab Otto, the problem is not him having 4 classes on his character but having 4 classes, no background and just getting those 4 classes in order to get to the prestige class sooner. He doesn't roleplay because how can one roleplay an undeveloped character? That's what I figured. To be honest, I'd have a problem with players like this in my group too. Most likely I'd just try to steer them toward the character trends the group as a whole uses, not tell him how wrong he is. For example, we play a pretty loose game where it's split about 70/30 with regards to gaming v. sitting around shooting the bull. Nobody minds so it's not a problem. We also don't get on people too much for not roleplaying very good. One person has been playing for perhaps 4-5 months, and while she's getting better, there is still a lot of development to do. Another, the son of one of our players, also doesn't rp that great, but he's getting better, too and I expect they'll both be up to speed within the year. [random thought] One thing that I just realized, both of them play their agressive type characters much better than their other type. I should explain. Every other week, I DM, meaning that everyone has two characters except me and the other DM. The players in question play a dwarven fighter and half-orc barbarian much better than their elven archer and human monk, respectively. Maybe it's just easier to play the 'grrrr, smash em up" character type. Hopefully that helps them develop a little quicker. [/random thought] Originally posted by Barrid ...current in the galactic sense. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Good one. Cheers Otto :)
Plunderer_of_the_planes 06-27-03, 09:39 PM	Originally posted by Andion Isurand Too many who are coming into D&D these days, come from the 'Land of Video and Card Games' rather than the the 'Land of Books and Novels' like they did in the early days of D&D. Hopefully, after a while, each newbie will come to understand the more enriching experience of playing D&D as a story, not a video game. Praise God!!! I'm not the only one who sees that. We use some videogame ideas but only for story....oh well darn kids are ruinin' it all for us eh? ;)
DrakeRunner 06-28-03, 01:15 AM	Originally posted by AlfaMale26 What I wished to explore here was why this board has been so silent. Enigma 42, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that it's easier to talk about builds and mechanics. I personally feel it's easier to talk about topics like "How do I best play X alignment?" Unfortunately, no. There are yahoos on this board that think being Lawful Good means you have to ram a handle up your axehole, and another guy that things Batman is Lawful Good. Rules are rules, and the law is laid down about those, and no one can dispute WotC. Roleplaying however is left widly open, and thus people WILL dissent and argue.
Kiarynh'Veil Duskryn 06-28-03, 09:19 AM	I am not going to take part in discussion whether powergaming is better than role-playing or the other way round. During my sessions what matters most is this "cinematic" smoothness. Action and story are perfectly balanced, so players are more engaged in gaming. By that I do not mean that on each session there should be 50% action and 50% story, no. What is important here, I think, is the DM's and the player's approach - their ability to merge together into one world and experience it. If everybody's "in", then the players do not have to roleplay or roll-play - they ARE their characters. For a couple of hours they relly BECOME the natives of Faerun, Krynn... or whatever place their imaginations drift to. :) Regards to all the fellow role-players :D
Daniel _the_Zodiac 06-28-03, 06:48 PM	I too, get tired with powergamers and munchkins. Granted, sometimes I love nothing better then a good ole' hack and slash, but what I really love is character depth. Right now I'm playing a dhampir fighter that masquerades as a human. He HATES non-human classes and therefore secretly hates and loathes himself. Also, since his father was a vampire, my character let's his anger and vengence get the best of him when he's fighting anything he deems 'evil'. I could go really in depth but that would test everyone's patience. What I'm getting at is that I personally think we're going to have more interesting and fun sessions then if I had choosen the dhampir template just for the benefits of it (which I've only choosen a few so as not to make him unbalanced with the rest of the party) Did I even add something helpful to the discussion? :(
Plunderer_of_the_planes 06-28-03, 08:23 PM	The thing I hate is players who cannot get past their numbers. So you just rolled a 9 so what. considering 9 is close to average It's not that bad. I was in a group where one of the players had really low scores and was amazed to see how well he roleplayed that. His lower strength and dexterity scores were due to a withered arm(a birth defect) and a deformed knee. His highest score was in charisma which he used as his main stat. More than once he talked our way out of sticky situations. I see the numbers as the skeleton of the pc. Its up to us to define how they work. Instead of saying my strenghth is 18 nghhh! Say you see a stoutly built man with well defined muscles. What people forget is that in the game world the npc's have no clue what an 18 strength is. One of the best roleplaying idea's I've had is giving the new pc's 5-10 extrs skill points to use on thier background skills. There are some rules to that like they cannot be used to augment class related skills. I have a list that they can draw from for these points. It does seem to flesh out the pc more and also a 5rank bartending skill doesn't throw off the balance and can save the pc's in a pinch. Also I encourage my players to come up with the concept of thier character before rolling a die or opening the PHB. It is great to see the change it makes to the game. Yes we still play by the numbers some but its fun to see them talk their way out of a fight rather than "I hit him with my +3 short sword of maiming using my +40 strength and multiple powergamer slash feat wich gives me a +900 to attack"
NewDM 06-29-03, 06:05 PM	RP'er right here! I play as a "tamed" Red Slaad (hard to explain, has to do with campaign world). Anyways, i dont speak common, so i speak numerous grunts and use my hands to make assorted signs. Its really interesting.....
Vaalingrade Ashland 06-29-03, 09:22 PM	Like all feral beasts, I am inclined to follow the alpha male. I think there are fewer people here because when you truly RP, you have less gripes/qualms/nitpicks with the roleplaying (the purpose of this forum. there fore, people who primarily complain have no reason to be here and so.... here we are. In the end, the people here are the ones truly excited and willing share. Add that to the fact that the link to these boards is no only hidden, but squished into a box that looks like an announcement, and there's no wonder there are so few of use here. I personally just found this forum. And I plan to stay.
stembolt 06-30-03, 10:07 AM	Munchkins (people who cheat) are always the DMs fault. I have had a few munchkins over the years and I accept responsibility for allowing them to go from bad to munchkin. As for power gamers I have had a few who were excellent role-players. A game becoming hack’n’slash is also more of a DM problem (the DM makes up the encounters). In fact most style related problems are the DMs fault (I am primarily a DM by the way).
Taran 06-30-03, 04:34 PM	I'm inclined to agree with both points. Although I came to RPGs from the world of video games instead of the world of books, I've personally found character development easier than character optimization. Also, it seems like there are many more places that people can post RP questions, while character optimization questions seem like a more specific topic to most people. "How do I min-max my Forsaker build" seems like a much narrower question than "How do I roleplay a dark elf paladin", for instance. (Then again, both of those questions are wide enough that you'd get many and interesting responses...) Originally posted by AlfaMale26 VERY good point, and one that hadn't occurred to me before. I would agree that personal backgrounds and character stories are typically handled by IDRPers on ther own, with only minimal solicitation of assistance. I also think there may be another factor. It seems like this board is frequented much more by the "old guard" of players, myself included. I've found many of the RP-based questions from newbies seem to pop up in the "What's a Player To Do" forum. So, I'm going to make a concerted effort henceforth to direct some more newbies from that board to this one. (I'll consider it my own little IDRP recruiting effort.) :D Granted, some of their querries may seem simplistic to us vets, but we were all there once too. If we make a good effort to answer even some of the simpler questions, maybe we can build some more momentum on the CD boards. Can I get an "Amen"?
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by stembolt Munchkins (people who cheat) are always the DMs fault. Heheh.... I actually tell my players that if they want to cheat, go right ahead. The one time it happened, I just start using rocks instead of dice. "Hey! Another 20! Looks like that goblin critted ya again!" People stop cheating right quick after that. Cheers Otto :devil:
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 06:41 PM	:behold: It wasn't me, honest! I didn't mean to do it!
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 06:46 PM	:behold:
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 06:51 PM	:behold:
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 06:56 PM	:behold:
Taran 06-30-03, 07:09 PM	Good advice, but 5 times? :D Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear x5 Heheh.... I actually tell my players that if they want to cheat, go right ahead. The one time it happened, I just start using rocks instead of dice. "Hey! Another 20! Looks like that goblin critted ya again!" People stop cheating right quick after that. Cheers Otto :devil: (edit: the beholder makes this post unnecessary, but I'm gonna leave it there for posterity...)
Kexizzoc 06-30-03, 07:10 PM	Not to be obnoxious or anything, but... damn! How'd you pull a quintuple post? I don't even know how double posts get created!
Otto the Bugbear 06-30-03, 10:39 PM	I hit post reply, then it kinda locked itself up. Then I left for a few hours without shutting down the comp. I came back just now and this is what I see. grrrr Otto :behold:
Plunderer_of_the_planes 07-06-03, 04:13 PM	[QUOTE]Do some of the directions that people have taken role-playing games surprise you? I think that it's very interesting. To me, to say that a role-playing game is all story is nonsense. If it's all about the story, pick up a darned book and read it. The story comes after the play; you don't know what the story is going to be until that particular episode is finished. Then you can tell the story. But until then it isn't the Master directing the players in little roles—that's called theater. It's the players impacting the environment, and the base story that has brought them there, and then creating a story from there. To do that, you need lots of things. Which of those you choose to emphasize is strictly up to the group, but a good role-playing game should allow you to emphasize any particular aspect that your group wants to use. It could be politics and intrigue, or it could be hack and slash—that is the most popular. It might be basic problem solving. It could be just about anything that you'd normally use in real life to complete what the task is, or try to complete it. It seems to me that if anything, rather than "role-playing" being the most important, role assumption is the most important. That is to put yourself into the shoes of that make-believe character and try to think and act as would that person. That doesn't mean you have to stand and give a soliloquy to bore the other players with, but to be acting and thinking "in-game."[quote] From an interveiw with Gary Gygax....the link is http://www.cdmag.com/articles/032/127/010507-f2.html I think that sums it up nicely.
Trydan 07-17-03, 01:43 PM	What happened to all of the roleplayers out there? Well, I'm still here. One of the main advantages of this board over Character optimisation, in my opinion, is that you can discuss "improving" less that straight-18 characters. The posters on this board know the rules, and are experienced gamers, but they also understand the fact that you need to justify your "optimising". There is also no expectation to have every supplement, and the latest version of everything. It all adds up to much more realistic advice, in the context of a rich story, which is what D&D is all about anyway.
Mister Mayhem 07-17-03, 03:02 PM	Maybe this board is quiet because all the role-players are out roleplaying. ;)
Fenmarel 07-17-03, 03:45 PM	At one point in our lives everyone has done the min/max thing. If you notice alot of the posts on the Opt board have been from new players. From fifteen years of gaming experience I have noticed that the ones that feel the powergaming bug are the new players. That doesn't mean that some of the more experienced roleplayers don't stick with that way of thinking though. Alot of the problem with the min/max stuff is the dm's running the game. If a hard core combat oriented campaign is run then hell yes you are going to have players min/maxing left and right! How do you expect the pc's to survive if they don't?!?! To keep down the powergaming I try to make ROLE-playing the key not ROLL-playing. The more you steer your campaigns away from the combat only types you will see that many players will get away from the combat oriented feats. As a dm you should also make the players come up with something reasonable as to why their character would have the feat or item. I might be looked at as a hard ass because when playing a character if they aren't engaging in an activity that is giving them some insight to the workings of a feat, skill or anything else for that matter I don't allow them to pick it up. That is also how I play my characters, if my rogue has never once picked a pocket since first level I don't bump up his PP skill, though if he was been doing things constantly like trying to stalk people or find them I will(with the DM's approval of course) give him the Track feat and start pointing points into wilderness lore, move silently, hide in shadows, and gather information. Take for instance the character I am currently playing. He is a ninth level rogue with all of his stats above average(using 4d6 method being watched by the dm as I rolled). I wasn't planning on him being anything other than a rogue, in that process I happened to give him everything that he would need to be a divine seeker of Mask. Now I haven't been playing my character in any way shape or form as to justify that move. I would chose something more to what he has been doing, from the begining everyone that has seem him work calls him a dungeon delver, he feels more at home in dungeons than out playing in the sunshine. I might go with that PrC but I doubt it*shrugs*. hmm seems I went off topic a bit there so I had better get out before I start more rambling. Jason
stembolt 07-17-03, 10:44 PM	Fenmarel, you are exchanging the words powergaming and min/max like they mean the same thing.
Fox Lee 07-18-03, 02:38 AM	Originally posted by Fenmarel To keep down the powergaming I try to make ROLE-playing the key not ROLL-playing. The more you steer your campaigns away from the combat only types you will see that many players will get away from the combat oriented feats. Because, of course, being an interesting character to roleplay and being good in combat are mutually exclusive. As, of course, are being a good roleplayer and wanting your character to be effective in combat. :rolleyes:
inci 07-18-03, 07:29 AM	just posted this in another thread: There is no point in attacking someone as soon as they have a different opinion on how multiclassing/characterbuilding should be done. that doesnt mean he is not able to do GOOD ROLEPLAYING™ Of course, there are some people who are not good at roleplaying, but noone started perfect. Otto kinda hit the point with his post. Talking about roleplaying isnt a thing you do in a forum normally. Every group has different opinions about roleplaying and no forum can give you advise on how to learn roleplaying. That is a thing you can only learn by doing. optimising your character is a different topic, its way easier to do in a forum. That mainly explains why its used more frequently, but by no means tells us that the majority of them are BAD ROLEPLAYER™
hiryuu 07-18-03, 08:07 AM	We're here. We just can't get a comment in edgewise about game mechanics or game mechanics theory or we're branded ROLL-PLAYERS.
Mr. VanderMeer 07-18-03, 11:29 AM	And back to the point of this thread. Why isn't it busier here? Maybe we should petition the Wiz_O to put a link to here in the general page. Some people did this for the Greyhawk page and it worked. And the Min/Max and IDRP boards used to have direct links on the main page (on the old boards)
Mister Mayhem 07-18-03, 04:40 PM	Maybe it comes down to the fact that good roleplayers have no need of advice, and no great need to show-off their creations to others. Wheras the optimisation board is a lot more competative. You get good Optimisers hanging out their to demonstrate their maximising skills. Plus, optimisation is all in the numbers, so can be easiliy demonstrated and discussed. Roleplaying is 90% in the playing, so its not easy to give examples here. Also, an optimised (or near optimised PC) can be used by anybody, in any style of game. A character concept, however, is a matter very much of personaly taste, and gaming style.
Lady Pain 07-18-03, 05:35 PM	Sure, I enjoy reading, playing videogames and such, but I also enjoy playing pen & paper type games like D&D, Star Wars, Vampire, etc. I especially like playing those type of games when the DM is a fun one and allows the players to have fun too. One of my former DMs seemed to only favor the other PCs because they were more experienced than I was and that always used to burn me up. I think he also did it because of being female which was really unfair. One of my current DMs (I've been gaming with him for a while) I really like because he treats me fairly and gives me chances to get really neat items or else ways to defeat the enemy, but he doesn't make things too easy for me. That's the makings of a good DM in my eyes.
Fox Lee 07-19-03, 06:41 AM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem Also, an optimised (or near optimised PC) can be used by anybody, in any style of game. A character concept, however, is a matter very much of personaly taste, and gaming style. This isn't really true. In fact, an optimised PC is far less likely to be used in any game as-is, in my experience, because good optimisation often takes elements from a lot of supplements (the splatbooks, books like SS and MM2, all that stuff). Often a player would have to drop elements of a proposed build to fit with the concept they have for their character (finding an alternate route for decent bare-handed damage if they didn't see their character fitting with Eastern/Monk/Lawful thematics, for example). And, indeed, they may have to further adjust their build to make it appropriate to the world or game setting, or specific themes that the GM wants to have in play. It isn't as if optimisation is universal, and characterisation is specific. And just before anybody even considers it, don't try labelling me a "roll-player" - I've played with levels of Aristocrat. And maxed out Heal purely for the flavour of it :p
inci 07-19-03, 07:18 AM	Originally posted by Fox Lee And just before anybody even considers it, don't try labelling me a "roll-player" - I've played with levels of Aristocrat. And maxed out Heal purely for the flavour of it :p lame min/max-er. get out of here. ASAP! :rofl:
Mister Mayhem 07-19-03, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Fox Lee This isn't really true. In fact, an optimised PC is far less likely to be used in any game as-is, in my experience, because good optimisation often takes elements from a lot of supplements (the splatbooks, books like SS and MM2, all that stuff). Au contraire - if its good optimising, it will be designed around the sources the DM is going to allow. If I were to go onto the optimising board and ask for help designing a Dex based fighter using only the core rules, thats what I would end up with. Anyone could contribute, and anyone could take it away and use it. Sure, somone will miss the core rules only imprecation and chip in with something else, but he can safely be ignored. The point being, though, that there are set ways of creating a given character for optimal effect. People will say "Play an Elf, take weapon finesse" etc etc. But it is a non-abstract concept. You can physically see the results of adding numbers together to demonstrate a better damage delivered per turn ratio, for example. But personalities, these are very much abstract concepts. And abstract concepts are notoriously difficult to convey to others. You can't show me an emotion, a personality. You could show me somebody you consider to have that personality, but I may not be seeing the same aspects of their personality that you are.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 07-19-03, 10:15 AM	The thing that bothers me is the rules changes that cater to the min/max crowd. Everything I've read shows a solid system, yes but also shows that it is easier to have an character that throws the game balance out so far that the pc needs dealt with. Sadly 3.0 and 3.5{shudder} caters to a new generation of roll players who want nothing more than all the power they can milk from the game. I'm not against some optimizing but too much ruins the game for anyone...
hiryuu 07-19-03, 11:34 AM	No, no. What this means is the game is attracting more people. And that's good. It's just that a whole lot of this crowd is coming off of video games, where the story is laid out for you. For me, I see that ease of play and rule judgements allow the rules to fall to the wayside, making more room for you to develop the character, rather than having to spend all that time working out exactly what to rolll for what and how exactly you plan on doing something, like in 2E.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 07-19-03, 03:38 PM	And that was what seperated role players from the rest of the world. You had to know this stuff and use your mind to remember all of this. Not that I am against 3e at all..3.5 is a different story but I digress. Anyhoo all anyone seems to want anymore are uber pc's that drain the fun out of the game.
Fox Lee 07-19-03, 11:27 PM	Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes The thing that bothers me is the rules changes that cater to the min/max crowd. Everything I've read shows a solid system, yes but also shows that it is easier to have an character that throws the game balance out so far that the pc needs dealt with. Sadly 3.0 and 3.5{shudder} caters to a new generation of roll players who want nothing more than all the power they can milk from the game. I'll believe that when you can provide me any kind of proof. Serioulsy, how the devil is 3E more aimed at min-max play than anything before it? What, is it powerplay to allow all races equal access to classes, or to allow you to mix those classes as you please rather than in a couple of set ways? Is it the skills? The feats? What are you suggesting is catering to the min-max crowd? And how are you possibly claiming that 3.5, with (amongst other things) XP penalties on PrCs, is better for min-maxers than 3E?
Fox Lee 07-19-03, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem Au contraire - if its good optimising, it will be designed around the sources the DM is going to allow. I was referring to pre-constructed builds - as in, for example, what gets the most effective mixture of martial prowess and spellcasting. I was under the impression that the original post was referring specifically to these, which ususally involve elements from a lot of sources. The point being, though, that there are set ways of creating a given character for optimal effect. People will say "Play an Elf, take weapon finesse" etc etc. But it is a non-abstract concept. You can physically see the results of adding numbers together to demonstrate a better damage delivered per turn ratio, for example. FWIW, these "set ways" are what I was referring to. Obviously there are different "set ways" within different sets of rules, but the ones which are any good usually seem to involve non-core sources, and need to be clipped down or adjusted to fit with a lot of games. But personalities, these are very much abstract concepts. And abstract concepts are notoriously difficult to convey to others. You can't show me an emotion, a personality. You could show me somebody you consider to have that personality, but I may not be seeing the same aspects of their personality that you are. I don't see that this makes it any more difficult to give somebody advice on a personality or background for their character. Maybe you can't communicate it as clearly as you can numbers (though you can always use the numbers to demonstrate it), but that doesn't really make it any more difficult to have or present an opinion on. As surely as you can say "play an elf, get weapon finesse", you can say "play an elf who came from a very insular society and is intrigued by other races" or "play an elf who was oastracised because he couldn't learn magic, but then discovered he could manifest psionics". Is it more the point that you cannot "optimise" a personality, given there is no real "right" or "wrong" when it comes to flavour? FWIW, I'd suggest that if less people ask for help with their character's personality, it's probably because less people want help with it. Those who care about it usually have very strong opinions and powerful imaginations, and have no trouble coming up with intricate psychoses and quirks and backstories; those who don't care don't bother to ask. Sure, the former sometimes run out of ideas or want to try something different; sure, the latter can change their minds and decide that two-dimensional characters are boring. But this happens less often than where people need help understanding and working with the rules. You need the numbers to play the game, after all - whether or not you make the numbers into a real character is up to you.
Fox Lee 07-19-03, 11:47 PM	Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes Anyhoo all anyone seems to want anymore are uber pc's that drain the fun out of the game. If this is truly what you think, I feel sorry for you - you must have had some really bad experiences. Furthermore, if all you see are people wanting uber-PCs to drain the fun out of the game, I suggest you get a new group, because those people are not worth playing with.
stembolt 07-20-03, 01:04 AM	3E does not draw more power gaming or min/maxing, it is just able to withstand it better than some games. Take heroes unlimited as an example. In that game you can come up with incredibly unbalanced uber characters that can easily wipe out the rest of the party. The game requires DM intervention to get people to tone down characters. In DnD, on the other hand, such uber characters are not possible. Thus min/maxing becomes more of a math game and less of a DM exercising his opinions.
Impeesa 07-20-03, 03:33 AM	Well, in-depth roleplaying is diametrically opposed to - and obviously superior to - the optimization of a character's mechanical aspect. Also: this just in! Yin vastly superior to Yang, Zen monks baffled! More at 11! ;) --Impeesa--
Mister Mayhem 07-20-03, 02:20 PM	Originally posted by Fox Lee As surely as you can say "play an elf, get weapon finesse", you can say "play an elf who came from a very insular society and is intrigued by other races" or "play an elf who was oastracised because he couldn't learn magic, but then discovered he could manifest psionics". You can say that, yes, but it tells me *nothing* about how to play such a character. And as you say, since there is no right or wrong, it is not something that is as easy to discuss as Optimisation. Hence more people participate in the Optimisation board than in teh Character Development board. At least, that's one theory. The other, of course, is that personalities dont have "rules". So you can play any personality you want without having to refer to the rules. Anyone can develop a personality without having to refer to anything other than their own experience. Wheras the mechanics of a PC do have rules, and so trying to create a character that is especially good in a certain area requires detailed knoweldge of the rules. Most people at the very least require a rulebook in front of them to create a character. And thus, input from others about how to achieve a specific goal within the rules becomes valuable, since there is quite a good likelihood somebody on that board has already given an awful lot of thought to the mechanics of what you want. That's another theory. I suspect an amalgamation of both of these reasons and many others besides is the reason this board is less popular than the optimisation one.
The Unbroken Enigma 07-20-03, 07:51 PM	Greetings. On the old boards I lurked about this one frequently hoping to post some interesting tidbit to a new gamer. I came to the new boards, posted, and got a response that surprised me: gimmick. I had never considered sand-bagging on one area of a character in order to petition a DM for more "horsepower" in another. I, unwittingly posted just such a question, looking for ideas on how to balance my concept in ROLEplaying terms so that I felt he stood a chance and could interact with the party. If you want a real good reason people don't come here anymore, I'll tell you: feedback. The truth is guys (and gals!) someone posts at the Opti board, "Need a cleric that kicks ass with a bow...build it!" and boom! it happens. Great feedback, thanks are given, people give other suggestions...it is a positive experience. They post on this board, some one makes a nice suggestion, or they don't, and politely flame the person about their idea and question. Then a small war starts about the terms "roleplaying," "rollplaying," "min/maxer," "power-gamer," and "munchkin." You want posts, you want visits, try this: be nicer. It is working for the Class club...I've been over there most of the day and at the end of most posts the critique will at least throw in a "please don't take this harshly." Sorry guys, it'll be an up hill battle, but complaining won't help us out. I'm rooting and watching...and more importantly point links to here.... Take care y'all. :bounce:
Durnhelm 07-20-03, 11:19 PM	ill admite. i used to be one of those powergamers who tried to do everything possible to get the "best" character in the party(and i was successful thanks to my 19 rogue/1 shadowdancer). but then i missed the old ways, and i tried it agian and it was very fun. alot funner than killing everythign cause i can hide in plain sight. why do people not like to roleplay? why?
JusticeZero 07-21-03, 06:38 AM	Originally posted by The Unbroken Enigma On the old boards I lurked about this one frequently hoping to post some interesting tidbit to a new gamer. I came to the new boards, posted, and got a response that surprised me: gimmick. I had never considered sand-bagging on one area of a character in order to petition a DM for more "horsepower" in another. I, unwittingly posted just such a question, looking for ideas on how to balance my concept in ROLEplaying terms so that I felt he stood a chance and could interact with the party.As the one who responded so "harshly" to you, I feel I have to respond. You may insert whatever token polite comment you wish. I don't know ANYTHING ABOUT the proposed character. I don't know if you're a masterful improv actor who spends two sessions buying supplies or someone who thinks roleplaying is in your choice of weapon and battle cry. Here's what I know: Someone came to the RP boards. They post, regarding a character who is, for reasons completely unknown to me, posessing a LOT of very 'notorious' flaws. In that post, they: 1) imply that the fact that they posess self-imposed restrictions and the fact that they posess visible "strange" attributes (scars, mute, etc) equals a good "roleplay" character, and 2) ask for ideas how they can (apparently) use these traits to ask their GM for 'special' dispensation of abilities.. sort've like advantages and disadvantages in point systems.. which usually play out as "I have a squeaky voice, my mother wants to kill me, i'm allergic to beestings, and I have a phobia of pelicans, thus allowing me to reroll three rolls/day, gain an extra action, and have a natural +2 unnamed bonus to AC.." Not to mention the fact that the disadvantages being listed are of the sort which in a typical campaign are not at all difficult to repair - which would leave the character whole, but with these extra bartered special abilities, without the point system need to buy off the disadvantage. Without knowing anything about the player, the character, or the campaign, that most closely resembles a point system min-maxer on the prowl for points. (As the HERO system people would describe it, "the kind of guy who tries to buy "missing a hand" one finger at a time for extra points".) Can I know any of the stuff I mentioned? Not really. All that stuff is pretty ineffable. I've never been in your game. You might have a wonderful game where everything is an exploration of deeper concepts. Or you could just be digging for some extra feats. I cannot tell from the sparse sentences that we see presented to us. All I can see is something that looks like the most low level, poor, unsatisfying and short-lived form of faux-roleplay to me. Truthfully, it still looks like a gimmick to me even now. There's nothing wrong with a gimmick if it was built from the base up, but VERY VERY FEW ARE. Almost every notorious trait is a gimmick slapped on the side, and usually do more harm than good. Is YOUR idea such a gimmick? I don't have any idea. But basic odds are that any unnamed random poster posting such a message would in fact be making a gimmick. I want people to get better! Consider my objection to a "gimmick" to be equivalent to a poster on the Min/max boards explaining to someone that they are better off not multiclassing primary spellcasters (and not even going MT) no matter HOW appealing it is to imagine the guy in platemail lobbing a fireball. While it may make for a cool image, it just isn't supported very well. Likewise with gimmicks - no matter how tickled you are today to imagine the barbarian being obsessed with killing every sheep in the world, it just isn't going to fly very well for more than a session or two.
Mr. VanderMeer 07-21-03, 10:08 AM	claiming that 3.5, with (amongst other things) XP penalties on PrCs First let me say I agree with you. There are more options now for players. Sure min/maxers will use these options. That does not mean that 3e or 3.5e are for min/maxers. The new options equally apply to the roleplaying! Just because some people can abuse some rules, doesn't mean that has to influence your game. Now about the above quote. It has been said by several people in the industry, that in 3.5e PrC's do not count for XP penalties. However the sentence to describe that has been left out of the book, by mistake.
Blakeman101 11-28-05, 07:57 PM	You are right there aren't as many roleplayers on this board. However I have met some very creative minds on this board. If you need to find the roleplayers find Fithiro and Harrow Blade and they will hook you up.
Fox Lee 11-28-05, 10:07 PM	You can say that, yes, but it tells me *nothing* about how to play such a character. I would have thought that at least "play an elf who came from a very insular society and is intrigued by other races" fairly well indicated an attitude which was curious or inquisitive, and that's just one example off the top of my head. And the thing is, that was only a vague generalisation of an idea, not an actual descrioption of personality. One could expand on that idea in many directions - anything from a naive, wide-eyed young fellow who spend most of his time in quiet awe, to a psychologist-esque individual who tries to mediate every argument in order to understand emotions better, to a reckless thrillseeker who just wants to experience everything, to a borderline sociopath who views other races like test subjects. Surely that would give you an idea of how to roleplay that character? It isn't so hard to give personality ideas. And the line I gave as an example is really no less generic than "play an elf with weapon finesse", which would also need expanson in order to become a fully-fledged build, rather than a starting point. There's not much difference. Most of what you say bears some truth, but I don't think that it being "harder" has much to do with the lessened traffic here. I think it's the feeling of elitism and superiority, and the unwillingness to accept that one can have a good character build and a good character. (Please excuse me if I missed some points. I'd forgotten entirely about this thread, so I had to do a quick recap to remember what I was talking about in the first place.)
Fithero 11-28-05, 10:58 PM	If you need to find the roleplayers find Fithiro and Harrow Blade and they will hook you up. Hehe :blush: Chiers Blakeman101, Im a bit unsure about me, im nothing special, but Harrow Blade sure as heck is. But there are tons of great roleplayers here, really anybody who posts on the CD boards has to have some interest in role playing otherwise they wouldnt even come here. Most of the time i like to have an indept character with a pretty full background. Other times i like nothing more than making a half-orc barbarian with 20 str, 18 dex and con, and int,wis,cha scores less than 10 and just bashing the unholy sh*t out of anything that gets in my way. Roleplaying is good, but if it gets in the way or delays you from have a good time, its not really worth it. Anyway, thats the way i see it. Later
Harrow Blade 11-29-05, 03:11 AM	You are right there aren't as many roleplayers on this board. However I have met some very creative minds on this board. If you need to find the roleplayers find Fithiro and Harrow Blade and they will hook you up. Hehe Chiers Blakeman101, Im a bit unsure about me, im nothing special, but Harrow Blade sure as heck is. :cloud9: You are both too kind. I am just another geek with a vivid (and a little twisted) imagination. I love to create a story with my characters and some of my most memorable characters are the ones who died early in the campaign but I had spent a lot of time writing the background and so they meant more to me than others that were more superficial. To me roleplaying is friends coming together to make a story within the guidlines set out by WoTC. Those of us who have seen the light of 'role' playing, creating a character of depth and meaning, shouldn't be out here flaming those who think otherwise. In my opinion we should be showing those people (and they are people, not demons or evil incarnate or aliens or some such) the joy and beauty of a well developed character. I am not nececarily a prolific poster but I visit almost everyday and try to offer helpful advice to those who come and ask for our help. Let those of us here who believe in good role playing try and help those who want to have that same experience. We can blame the kids, the video games and what ever else we like for the 'roll' not 'role' playing but if we want to promote what we believe is the better way lets lead by example. Go to the other threads and when you post there link back to the development board, offer a story idea when posting on the optimisation boards. I want to practice what I preach and so if any one who reads this wants to PM me I will do my best to help out. Finally, It is good to see so many responses on this thread from character players. Good Roleplaying to you all.