Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Crane 02-02-07, 03:02 PM	I'm trying to determine where one of my characters falls, both between chaos/neutrality and evil/neutrality. The character in question is Drow (I know, I know :rolleyes: ), and the crux of the dilemma is that I'm trying to figure out how much his outlook would have changed from its initial CE / NE state due to his past. To begin with, he was a rank-and-file soldier in the House armies, always perfectly willing to defect to another side in the event of capture. He cared for nothing but his own continued survival, and would take any means necessary to ensure it (although his options were quite limited due to standing). His backstory brings him to the surface, and overall events don't do much to change his attitude, but he does get an inkling of the fact that some individuals actually look out for people other than themselves. Still, he's not an idiot, and he knows that this sort of goodwill isn't about to spring up around him on the surface. He also knows he can't return to the Underdark, as he would simply find himself an undoubtedly publicized sacrifice to Lloth. With that in mind, he's still primarily out for his own survival. However, he now has a few limitations--first, he's trying not to draw attention to his actions, simply because that would bring unwanted scrutiny and he wants to maintain a low profile. Second, he knows he's going to need allies, so he's gritting his teeth and tolerating that as a necessity. My question is, is this still Chaotic Evil since his limitations are forced upon him (though he follows them of his own choosing, his motives for doing so are not at all altruistic)? Is it Neutral Evil? Is it True Neutral since he's not so much out to kill others as assure his own continued existence (but will kill others to do so if he can get away with it)? Is it Chaotic Neutral since he only follows the laws and limits that he HAS to in order to survive? I'd appreciate any viewponts on this. I've tended to think of the character as CN, but the fact that he's smart enough to limit himself makes me wonder if N might be more accurate. In terms of stats, his mental ability scores are WIS 13, INT 17, CHA 14 after racial adjustments (Ftr/Wiz/PrC gish build). On 32 pt buy (DM is debating since I rolled high), they're WIS 10, INT 17, CHA 12. For anyone wanting more in-depth info, here's his backstory. Born an illegitimate child to a mother of no importance, Tycho's life in the Underdark was hard and cruel, as might well be expected. The boy had a penchant for calculated violence, and this served him well. He grew to become a soldier in the armies of House Vrinn, and his life was one of unending slaughter. Never satisfied with what little power he could attain through force of arms, Tycho was constantly on the lookout for ways to expand his abilities. He was always eager to pick up any scraps of arcane techniques that he could, although such opportunities were few. A common soldier had no hope of actually gaining access to Sorcere itself. Eventually, the Drow’s natural good looks caught the attentions of one of the House females. She abused his charms liberally for quite some time, but eventually grew tired of him. In order to eliminate any possible complications, Tycho was "volunteered" for a surface infiltration of a Wood Elf settlement. The mission was fairly straightforward: several pairs of Drow were to be teleported to the surface, where they had to find the assigned target and integrate themselves into the population. Towards this end, each was given a ring, the design of which was copied from jewelry found on some corpses from a previous raid. These trinkets would permit the operatives to alter their appearance to a single, fixed alternate guise. Tycho was assigned to work with a longtime rival of his, a rogue by the name of Zamethrin Qenir'van. As soon as the pair were on the surface, they went for each other's throats. Tycho emerged the victor in the battle, and he promptly stripped Zam of his ring and used the Drow's corpse as his ticket into the village, claiming he was a traveler who'd been attacked by a scout and that the guards should investigate. With the ensuing commotion, it was relatively easy to manipulate the elves' fears and ingratiate himself, and over the course of several days he settled in. As the days wore on with no signal to strike, the keyed-up anticipation that had built inside Tycho gradually gave way to boredom. He had already identified several of his compatriots within the area by their rings, although he hadn't needed to make contact with any of them yet. However, when one of the females began making advances on him, he had no choice but to cooperate. Interestingly, his companion, Ildryna, proved remarkably restrained and subtle in her behavior, quite unlike the pushy tactics Tycho was used to. Tycho began to respect the woman, and that slowly gave way to a mutual friendship, something unheard of among Drow. The two spent time together talking about matters within the village, although both were careful to stay clear of discussions related to the mission, as observers were omnipresent. They also became sparring partners, often researching and perfecting new techniques in combat against each other. It was here that Tycho began to more fully practice weaving arcane magic into his combat style. One day, during a stroll through a more secluded part of the forest, Tycho’s curiosity finally got the better of him and he actually summoned the gall to ask Ildryna to remove her ring so he could see what she looked like. She seemed puzzled by the request at first, but after some badgering she slid the band off her finger. Nothing happened. There was a long pause where Tycho’s stomach fell into his feet, then he swore and tackled her with the intention of cleaning up the loose end he’d just created. Unfortunately, when he had the knife to her throat, he realized he couldn’t do it. That moment’s hesitation was all the opening Ildryna needed to kick him in the gut and send him sprawling. He lay in the grass for several moments, then sighed and removed his own ring. Ildryna would probably have killed him had she not fainted at seeing his true form. By the time she regained consciousness, Tycho was sitting on a nearby log, once more disguised. The pair talked things out, and Tycho’s loyalties finally broke. He revealed everything about the mission, including how to identify the agents by looking for the signets they wore. It turned out that the corpses from which the rings had been taken were Elves in Ildryna’s tribal line, hence her own identical ring. Life returned to some semblance of normality, and one night soon after the signal came. Spiders scuttled into the rooms where the agents had made their lodgings. The vermin were gone as quickly as they’d come, but it was all the alert that the Drow required. They stormed from their bunks, weapons drawn—and were felled by arrows from the darkness, fired by rangers assigned to track them. The skilled and the fortunate managed to put up resistance, and the night lit up with blue spellfire and the clash of steel. Still, the Drow were dead already, and they knew it. Tycho, whose identity Ildryna had not revealed to the authorities, met her at the stables. She had a horse waiting for him. The two said their goodbyes, and then he galloped off into the night, promising to return within a fortnight. He rode his steed to death in a panicked effort to get as far away as possible, then spent the rest of the time lying low and waiting. Finally, the time passed, and he began to make his way back to the settlement. When he returned, he found Ildryna’s body hanged outside the village walls. Starlight bathed her face in a ghostly pallor, and her neck was skewed in graceful mockery of its natural form. She had been executed for conspiring with the foe, her body left on display for all to bear witness. He stood, rooted. Strength fled his limbs; thoughts, his mind. He could only stare—frozen, held, forced, helpless. Dead. His life ended then, his flame extinguished in the same breath that had taken hers. That bright, violent blaze, so filled with passion and fury, simply faltered, and was gone. His legs failed him. Metal greaves clattered against stone, crunched upon undergrowth as he collapsed to his knees. Still he stared. Her eyes did not accuse; rather, as ever, they held that private joke, that observation, that secret she always seemed to hold. But now that truth would never find release. Tears finally came, but he did not feel them. He still knelt, a prisoner of the scene before him. His lips parted a moment. There was no scream: only a weak, gasping breath. The sound of a life, breaking. Tycho’s world shattered. He collapsed, sobbing for what must have seemed hours, unable to speak, barely able to breathe. When the violent fit of emotion passed, he carefully, reverently removed the body, carrying it to the clearing where he’d first removed his ring. He slid the band from her finger and donned it against his own. Then he buried her. From there, it is uncertain where precisely his wanderings have taken him. In a nutshell -Out for his own good -Will restrain his behavior for the sake of the above goal, but otherwise prefers to do what he wants, when he wants -Will kill if practical and if it serves his ends, but not for no reason (waste of effort, waste of resources, possible complications; not because of a respect for life) -Has a dead love interest he's actively trying to ressurect (It's largely a selfish love, but he's learning) Feel free to post a situation if you want to know how he'd react to help judge. Generally, as far as things like saving babies, he'd fall into the "does good things for the wrong reasons"--he'll do something "noble" if the risk to him is offset by the social benefit of boosting his reputation, since allies are a precious commodity in his situation. Sacrifice your life to save a village? No. Risk it? If he's pretty sure he'll survive, and knows he'll then have a village on his side afterwards...maybe...
Radijs 02-02-07, 03:43 PM	My initial thoughts are leaning towards neutrality. Rather then evil, but as you said he only 'acts nice' and only because he wants to attract chumps Err I mean 'make friends'. He's very likely still evil if any of the following questions will be awnsered yes: 1. Would he; assuming he could get away with it murder someone purely for his own gain? 2. If the situation was so that he could obtain a long-term advantage betray his new chumps, err 'friends'? In the end I think he smells Neutral Evil. He's willing to work with local laws, rules and traditions as long as it is in his own best interest but when these become a hindrance he won't hesitate to abandon them.
Mysteria 02-03-07, 02:13 AM	I agree with Radjis. NE - he's willing to do evil whenever it suits himself.
Adrian_Crane 02-03-07, 05:11 PM	1) Would he murder someone for his own gain? You say "assuming he could get away with it," but in a world with divination magic that's hard to do--besides which, the possible complications are endless. Still, in a situation where NOBODY would ever know--his companions, the powers that be, nobody, anywhere, ever--yes, he would. Then again, a CN character would too. The problem is that such situations don't really exist. 2) Would he betray his "friends"? Probably not, as he *wants* goody-two-shoes allies because they reflect well on him. An offer of betrayal is likely to come from the sort of company that won't help him too much in that respect, and he's had enough of the endless backstabbing from his past. He'd rather be the black sheep in a white flock, where he doesn't have to watch his back as much. Here we've got a character who's out for himself, but has no particular desire to make life miserable for anyone--it's just that if they cross his path and offing them is the best course of action, well then, that's their bad luck. I'd agree NE seems to fit, but at the same time, I wonder if it's totally accurate. The PHB says "A NE villian...is out for herself, pure and simple." That's definitely on the mark, but at the same time, it says under CN that "To do so he would have to be motivated either by good...or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer)." I'm still torn on the Chaos vs Neutral thing as well. A CN character "follows his whims...but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it." That seems to fit with the "wants to do what he wants to do, but has the sense to restrain himself." side of the character. Seems he's borderline C/N with tendencies towards Chaos, and borderline N/E with occasional tendencies towards evil, and yet I certainly wouldn't list him as Chaotic Evil. I think my ultimate conclusion is that OVERALL he's CN, but with evil moments and a history that leads him to consider evil options. The acid test: would he potentially show an aura of chaos or get damaged by Order's Wrath? I think yes, which makes him chaotic. Would he show up as evil to a Paladin? Interesting one. I have a much harder time with that; I think he'd show up as having a "faint evil aura." Gray areas are fun, but they're a pain to quantify.
Radijs 02-03-07, 06:15 PM	Reading your reaction on the questions I pose I'm just re-affirming my NE statement. He apparently has no qualms about commiting evil deeds as long as it works out for him in the end. The only reasons you're giving why he WONT is because he thinks it will come back to haunt him later. If it wouldn't come back he'd go for it like a tentacle monster goes for a bus of japanese schoolgirls. A complete lack of morals is evil. Willing to accept laws and traditions while they are useful but not having trouble breaking them when its nessecary is neutral along the law chaos axis. Hence NE.
Adrian_Crane 02-03-07, 09:05 PM	Hm...you're right, I'm probably just justifying. NE it is.