Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 01:08 PM	And now, for something different. A great deal of the optimization challenges and extreme builds focus on the development of a single capability to enormous lengths. Yes, efforts are made to keep characters playable and somewhat versatile, but somehow, they don't seem quite... up to the reputation and standards of the CO Board. To this effect, I propose the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge, an effort to develop truly monumental characters with power, flexibility, and sustainability. The Challenge: Create a character that can produce stats required by the 10 following goals: 1) 100 AC 2) +100 to hit ---- 2a. Capable of doing this at least once a round ---- 2b. Waived for casters who can produce save DCs of 100+ ---- 2c. Waived for a maximum of 3 rounds during the challenge whilst buffing. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round ---- 3a. This damage can be melee, at range, or created by spells/effects. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check ---- 4a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected skill check. 5) 100 ft movement speed ---- 5a. Must exercise this movement twice in the challenge and still maintain stats 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves ---- 6a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected save. 7) 100 spell-levels castable ---- 7a. Must cast 10 of these spell levels during the challenge ---- 7b. Yes, psionics count. 8) 100 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...) 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round ---- 9a. 10 damage of 10 different types each round ---- 9b. Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, Divine, Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic) ---- 9c. The elemental and divine damages may be reduced by resistances and immunities. Evasion and Improved Evasion do work to reduce these if you make a DC 100 Reflex save each round. Damage reduction also functions as normal vs the melee damages. ---- 9d. These points of possible damage are dealt to all cohorts, animal companions, mounts, etc, involved in the challenge. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) The Rules: Permissable Material: + All WotC Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Products ---- The first exception is Unearthed Arcana, from which no material is allowed ---- The second exception is Thought Bottle, an item from Complete Arcane, which disrupts XP calculations + Wizards.com-based web enhancments and chracter variations (i.e. The Psychic Rogue, Arcane Duelist, etc) + In all cases, use the most-up-to-date, errata'd version of any material. ---- 3.0 edition material that has not been errata'd is impermissable Character Ability Scores: 32 point ability buy, as outlined in the DMG pg 169. Character Experience: This is a challenge intended for ECL 20 entries. Precisely, characters have 190,000 xp, the exact amount needed to obtain level 20. XP can be spent on item creation, ritual completion, permanent spells, etc, but the character will face level loss. Cash: 760,000 gp per character. Maximum of 190,000 spent on any one item. Cohorts gain standard wealth for their character level (see pg 135 in the DMG), while any followers must be outfitted by the player. Custom items are allowed, but they must follow the guidelines (and spirit) of the DMG and Skip Williams' articles on the matter. (Those articles can be found here: Obviously, select "Making Magic Items" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg)). I don't want to see any Rings of True Strike for 8,000 gp. Nit-picking: I am open to comments and suggestions for improving this challenge. Some pre-emptive question-and-answers. Q: Isn't doing all of this at once for so long impossible? A: That's what we're going to find out. Can't know until we try. Even if you can't get all of them, at least attempt to be the one to meet the most of the requirements. Q: How about infinite broken loop X, can I use that? A: Sure, but will it really help you to meet every challenge? Will you gain anything from borrowing someone else's old loophole? Be creative where you can. Q: Do I have to get exactly 100? Can I go over? A: Yes, you can go over, silly literalist. Q: How much time do I get for set-up and buffing? A: As much as you want. Just remember that there are specific rules about maintaining these stats, so pay close attention to ability durations... Q: What about Carnivore's bats? Or scads of followers? A: Go for it. Though note that the 100 damage/round of challenge #9 does apply to your little pals as well. Q: What do I have to do to submit a character? A: That's up to you. You can post a complete build or just suggest a line of thinking about how to meet certain parts of the challenge. I'm not going to be strict about formatting, but at least clarify the classes, abilities, and tactics used in your attempt. Q: Why are you doing all this? A: My goal is to have fun in producing a truly kick-arse sets of characters. I view the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge as a way to get the CO board up in arms and pushing its limits. Resources: These are threads which contain ideas and hints for developing high-stat characters. Please use them as jumping-off points, not crutches that limit your innovation. ---- X Stat to Y Bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) (LordKiwi) ---- Maximizing Attack Bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=284517) (FemurToothpick) ---- Carnivore's Animal Helpers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=436946) (carnivore) ---- A High-AC Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=439367) (Otto, Urnsk, and DisposableHero) Hall of Fame: The iron colossi among boguns 1) The Shepherd, The Saint, and the Sinner (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6377216&postcount=54) ---- Creator: DisposableHero_ and Urnsk (special thanks to Otto the Bugbear) ---- Tactics: Use of Fusion to weld the various synergetic powers of two Thralls into a super-psionicist 2) The Morphling (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6389336&postcount=86) ---- Creator: Urnsk ---- Tactics: Smart shapeshifting and savvy item selection with a Chameleon/Fochulan-Lyrist twist 3) The Beast (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6449124&postcount=102) ---- Creator: Squirrelloid ---- Tactics: Master Transmogrifist goes Shambling Mound, ultra-pumps Con, the rest is history 4) The Bringer of Fated Justice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6516671&postcount=108) ---- Creator: PhaedrusXY ---- Tactics: Gish-ish accumulation of spell-and-ability-based bonuses, heavy scroll use. 5) Pun-Pun the Mighty Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) ---- Creator: Khan the Destroyer ---- Tactics: Mind-boggling cumulative use of a Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability. 6) Squibb the Goblin King (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7258756&postcount=150) ---- Creator: cvazi ---- Tactics: Synchronicity's infinite actions meet nanotechnology's outrageous potential. 7) The Silly Literalist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7682928&postcount=162) ---- Creator: Lusden Veharo ---- Tactics: A charming fey who is the first to get meet every challenge with +100 exactly. 8) Mr. Roboto (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7686792&postcount=167) ---- Creator: deathwishjoe ---- Tactics: A cunning crafter creates an effigy with a mountain of templates then pilots the proto-mecha. 9) Theyla Eseriel (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8228931&postcount=219) ---- Creator: thorian ---- Tactics: A simple cleric demonstrating the pure power of a smart buffing routine. 10) ??? ---- Creator: You? Me? We? ---- Tactics: Kicking arse and taking names. And tens. Good luck!
Caelic 06-05-05, 01:12 PM	Okay. I'm going to be using this post as a rough worksheet for my builds as I go--sort of a work in progress. BUILD 1: The Artifice-Ur Human Artificer 10/Ur-Priest 10 HOW HE PULLS THIS OFF: Persistent Shapechange from a staff (thanks to Metamagic Item) allows him to assume the form of an Ethereal Doppelganger (from the MMII.) An Ethereal Doppelganger can become just about ANYTHING, and isn't subject to the normal Shapechange hit dice limitations. I Gate in something monstrously powerful, and enter into contract with it. The service required: allowing me to "borrow" its identity. I then use the Ur-Priest's Steal SLA ability to add a nice little boost onto this, add in a Persistent Consumptive Field to drastically boost my caster level and raise my hit points to a near infinite level, et voila. The specifics need to be worked out, but I'm confident that I can achieve all ten requisites with this build. REVISION 1: I may very well end up going to with a straight Artificer 20. The current game plan: Artificer makes many Buff items. Artificer Persistent Shapechanges into Ethereal Doppelganger. Artificer Gates in Great Wyrm Red Dragon and contracts for service--in this case, the service consists of the dragon being wined and dined and showered in treasure while the Artificer studies him. Artificer assumes form and abilities of Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Ethereal Doppelgangers can't duplicate divine spells, but that's okay--the Red Dragon can cast cleric spells as ARCANE spells...meaning he can poop out Miracles with no messy divine complications.
Tempest Stormwind 06-05-05, 01:25 PM	Reserved for the Dwarven Master of Many Forms version 4.0. I've only got about half the requisites so far--will need to tweak things a bit before final posting. Damn, that's the same method I was considering using. Don't you just love uncapped abilities that stack with themselves?
lokkesmadr 06-05-05, 01:41 PM	Space reserved for the Illumian cancer mage. I can hit all the requirements, but not for long enough...
lgw 06-05-05, 03:11 PM	how is the damage dealt ? eg profane, etc... usual 50% miss chance if i'm incorporeal, for example ? edit: does a automatic success on a skillcheck automatically succed it ?
Furry Rodent 06-05-05, 03:37 PM	Doesn't the HIVE automatically quallify as a winner? I'm sure with the stupid-big spellcasting ability that he could make himself and his crawly companions immune to damage for the given time period. I'm not absolutely sure, but I imagine that the right build of a HIVE has it in a cinch.
Caelic 06-05-05, 03:53 PM	One quick question: are non-3.5 sources that have been updated for 3.5 (such as the Monster Manual II) considered kosher? I noticed that someone's using Cancer Mage, which last I checked, is 3.0.
Tempest Stormwind 06-05-05, 03:59 PM	Doesn't the HIVE automatically quallify as a winner? I'm sure with the stupid-big spellcasting ability that he could make himself and his crawly companions immune to damage for the given time period. I'm not absolutely sure, but I imagine that the right build of a HIVE has it in a cinch. The HIVE itself is a collection of vermin, no tougher than an average swarm. And I don't know if the vermin lord itself has 100 hit points, although I bet he could easily get that with the right items. That said, a HIVE with a swarm-usable psionic item of Timeless Body can bypass everything listed under the Damage rule. And thus wins by default. All that remains is seeing if, under 3.5 rules, the Hivemind quality can interface with multiple monsters of the Swarm type. If not, you're limited to a single swarm with about 10000 creatures in it. (Plus, as Caelic caught, it's BOVD, which may or may not be legal here.)
catharz 06-05-05, 04:29 PM	An Artificer can probably do it. Mainly by using the infusions which change a bonus type. And there are a large number of Cleric spells granting skill bonuses upwards of +10. For damage, either Blasting or Buffing should do it. Divine power + Spikes + Brambles + Greater magic weapon on a club = a possible 4*(10+10+5) = 100. Not counting Str, Base weapon damage, critical hits, etc. For the damage types, Energy Immunity gets rid of 5 right away. I think the AC is doable with a combination of the bonus-type infusion, Magic Vestiment, Defending armor spikes, armor razors, spiked buckler, etc. Quesion: I'm assuming for the above that the character must be level 20, but can I make it level 100?
Caelic 06-05-05, 04:42 PM	I agree, Catharz--depending on the answer to my question above, my alternate character is based partly on Artificer levels. (Big surprise coming from me, I know!)
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 04:43 PM	Glad to see the enthusiasm and inquiries. First, regarding the way damage is dealt: Yes, incorporeality grants you a 50% miss chance for the assorted damages. Miss chances from concealment, however, do not affect the damage dealt. The damage challenge is meant to test durability, not sneakiness. Second, regarding 3.0/The Hive/The Book of Vile Darkness: This challenge allows 3.0 material that has been clearly updated and errata'd by WotC. This means that Monster Manual II is good to go. However, since the Book of Vile Darkness has no errata published, I'm going to rule it out, on temporary suspension (i.e. not allowed for now). Would any of you really have been satisfied to just shout "the HIVE can do everything" and descend into complacency? That said, the point of this challenge is to built robust and powerful new characters. lokkesmadr, please continue to develop your Illumian Cancer Mage concept. If it turns out that the BoVD path is the best way to Elite Optimization, it'll be interesting and fun to find out. Third, carthaz, the contest has been designed for ECL 20 characters (190,000 xp). Sure, you could make a level 100 character that meets all of the goals, but it probably wouldn't be much of a challenge or test your limits. Everyone- don't forget concentration checks to avoid spellcasting disruption from all this damage you may or may not be taking.
Caelic 06-05-05, 04:52 PM	LoP, One final question: if certain elements are going to be allowed for one build, it seems reasonable that they should be allowed for all. I'm fairly sure that the Cancer Mage build uses an infinite-strength loophole I was considering for my MoMF build; should I eschew Festering Anger, or may I use it?
catharz 06-05-05, 05:22 PM	Isn't Festering Anger from BoVD?
Tempest Stormwind 06-05-05, 05:57 PM	It is, but so is the Cancer Mage. Thus, if lokkesmadr's Illuminan Cancer Mage (which, by the way, is also a Festering Anger thing -- known here already, using AeshKrau (Strength to bonus spells) + Infinite Strength) is legal and encouraged, then you're fine. In other words, if he can use it, so can you.
Funny Slaughter 06-05-05, 06:21 PM	That said, the point of this challenge is to built robust and powerful new characters. lokkesmadr, please continue to develop your Illumian Cancer Mage concept. If it turns out that the BoVD path is the best way to Elite Optimization, it'll be interesting and fun to find out. you are joking, aren't you? all it takes for your challenge is to get some dusty loophole-builds out of the shelf and put some polish on it. its not that important if you choose to go with the infinite-strength loophole or the shambling-mouth infinite con loophole (and the con as caster-stat then?) i am looking forward to see a build matching the requirements without using a loophole. my bets are on the artificer, that class was developed by a COler in disguise who used the maximum diplomacy world record (and bluff as well) to get it into print... gs Funny
SigmaJargon 06-05-05, 06:33 PM	Tauric Jermaline Maho-Tsukai, perhaps? (I've been spending way too much time recently thinking over the Maho-Tsukai. You can tell, can't you?) Tauric 3 (+2 LA, 1 for the base lower half HD) / Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Threuge 10 / Maho-Tsukai 1, or something along those lines. Pump a whole lot of templates on the Tauric to increase Strength, Dex, and Con (HP, AC, hit, skills, fort/ref save, and damage), kill your wisdom to up your taint (can get DC's 100+ without too much difficulty), polymorph into some form with a high fly speed for the speed req. hhmmm... I'll meditate upon this.
lgw 06-05-05, 07:03 PM	without using broken loopholes, i'd give a thrallhead / multi leadership sorcerer the best chances. best way to gain tons of useable servants, ecspecially if you allow cascading for more servants. the essential idea is to get tons of different buddys to cast tons of different spells on you to gain above bonuses (i'd find the save bonus the hardest). get really small servants and keep them in some bags of holding made up properly, so you have them always with you and still safe, as you will only need them for buffing. you will mainly have to open / closed the bag(s) in the right timing. maybe you could even do it full core that way, if there are enough different sources for bonuses.
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 07:11 PM	Alright, some more clarity for this challenge. It will be edited into the original post. Builds using material from The Book of Vile Darkness (and any other un-errata'd 3.0e products) will not be considered in compliance with the rules. I asked lokkesmadr to continue pursuing the Cancer Mage out of curiousity regarding whether even the Festering Anger trick could match up to the 100^10 challenge. However, as Funny Slaughter has astutely noted, dredging up old loopholes is not in the progressive spirit of this challenge. If Festering Anger/Shambling-dividers/HIVEs can accomplish some goals, good for them--go ahead and message me about it-- but it doesn't gain us anything new. Due to the difficulty of accurately defining a "loophole," I am going to refrain from explicitly banning certain builds, but offiically booting the BoVD from the playing field is a step in the right direction. Are you intimidated by the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge yet? I hope not!
happymoocow 06-05-05, 08:00 PM	I'm not intimidated. I believe this challenge is incredibly pointless and stupid. 1) There's no campaign in the world I could use a build like this for. 2) I'd need a criminally insane dm to allow all the loop holes I'll be going through and then the dm would have to bend and interprete rules in my favor. 3) All the other players will become sidekicks and that's just stupid. 4) There's got to be some realism even in a fantasy role playing game... infinite strength, constitution, and ac anywhere near realism? 5) This is where the dm boots you off. I mean I guess it's fun to see how much you can abuse the dnd system. Not my picnic though.
catharz 06-05-05, 08:47 PM	Didn't your mom ever teach you to 'say something nice, or nothing at all'?
Rashomon 06-05-05, 08:50 PM	It's a theoretical exercise. Nobody is suggesting using this in a real campaign. Haven't you been around the CO boards long enough to recognize these things?
Norhg 06-05-05, 08:56 PM	Reserving a spot, will see what I come up with. (ps. it is now decided. I will go 20 levels full psion.) One hundred ac is easy, on hundred hp too, as is castable spells, damage taken, movement (I'm a human, I run 120 ft in a run. I do it twice during the challenge.), damage made and skill bonus. If nothing else saves can be solved with the age old shambling mound trick. Con gain add infinitum, Attack roll is harsh, but I will figure something out. EDIT: I don't think I have ever played a character who doesn't meet those first requirements :O. Just a fyi ;).
Rashomon 06-05-05, 09:00 PM	Hmm, for attacks you could try layering Shock Trooper, Snowflake Wardance, quickened True Strike off an item, Inspire Recklessness, and so forth. Or 20'000 rats with Swarmfighting using the Aid Attack action.
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 09:01 PM	happymoocow and any others harboring inherent problems with making statistically powerful characters: The 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge is: open to comments and suggestions for improving this challenge This does not include comments entirely about grudges with the character optimization in general. Let's stick with the ones that improve the challenge. If you would like a discussion on the rhetoric of Character Optimization, the feasibility of maintaining party-balance when optimized characters are present, or the level of "realism" appropriate for Dungeons and Dragons, please take it elsewhere. I open my inbox to such conversations. Also, you'll find plenty of discussion on other Wizards.Community boards. And now, back to developing versatile-yet-powerful characters. A new clarification: Number 5, "100 ft movement" should read "100 ft movement speed." That's right, human commoners don't ace this one :rolleyes:
happymoocow 06-05-05, 09:10 PM	I challenge you to make the build yourself :P
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 09:28 PM	Certainly, I'll attempt to make a build. Moving on... Roshomon: Swarmfighting, Aid-offering rats are an interesting and powerful choice. Getting them to survive the per-round damage, on the other hand, is a new challenge unto itself. :thinks:
lgw 06-05-05, 09:37 PM	yep. but the real headache is the save. rest should be manageable - though to hit is no2 on the problems. spells dc100 is rather hard i think. and btw: the 100 dmg / round in 10 x 10 is really chunky - ignore 7-9 and take the divine and heal it if necessary.
Norhg 06-05-05, 09:42 PM	6) +100 to a selected save of your choice Can this be read as a "save vs death effects" or such? Bet there is plenty of ways to rake those up.
LordofProcrastination 06-05-05, 09:52 PM	Norhg brings up an excellent point about challenge #6. In order to pre-empt people selecting "+100 saves vs banana peel", the appropriate clarification is: 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves ---- 6a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected save. In other news, I'm beginning to collect resources that will help people out in their pursuit of the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge. They will be posted in the first thread soon. If you think of a particularly statistically useful thread not linked in the Optimization Library please send me a personal message with a url. Please don't clutter this thread with assorted links. Just PM me.
WizO_Autumn 06-05-05, 11:19 PM	Please keep this on topic. Constructive feedback is fine, but if you aren't interested in that or participating, move along. There are plenty of other threads in which to participate.
Rashomon 06-05-05, 11:27 PM	Most of the good save-boosting methods I can think of involve stacking on kami's grace / divine grace / whatever grace / Mysticism granted power / etc. In other words they depend on a good CHA mod.
kaeru 06-06-05, 12:10 AM	"I wish I could win the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge." But seriously. Very cool idea. Props.
Sithobi1 06-06-05, 03:53 AM	3 dorjes, all Manifester Level 300(I'm too lazy to figure out what I really need) and restricted to True Neutral users only: Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive These satisfy 1,2,3,6, and 9 1 Wand, Glibness. (+30 unnamed) Item of +30 competence bonus to Bluff 23 ranks in Bluff 18 initial cha, +5 tome, +6 cloak, +3 Venerable=+11 Skill Focus:Bluff +2 from Candle of Invocation, True Neutral +1 from Luckstone Satisfies 4. Build: Human Psionic Rogue 2/Bard1/Druid 17 Use Elemental Wildshape into an Air Elemental for the 100 ft fly speed. Satisfies 5, 7, and 8. Everything shown above lasts for more than 17 rounds. You don't really need to do anything special during the time you're there, so sit around and cast a cure critical wounds on yourself whenever you roll a natural 1.
SigmaJargon 06-06-05, 06:30 AM	Good idea, Sithobi, with one tiny problem: The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains. So no 300 manifester level wands. The highest dorje manifester level you'll get on those powers is 6.
carnivore 06-06-05, 07:29 AM	wow...a very interesting challenge......will start thinking about it :D
LordofProcrastination 06-06-05, 08:55 AM	Excellent! Plenty of great ideas coming in - CO people are starting to rise to the challenge. I'm going to avoid stealing anyone's thunder, but here are a few of the paths being explored: + Super-templated Maho-Tsukai + Psionic trickery -- careful use of those lesser-known powers + Artificer. Bam. + Shifter/Master of Many Forms/MasterTransmogrifist. With form-stacking, just about anything is possible... + Animal allies 'aiding' anything and everything Keep up the innovation, chaps and chappesses!
Sithobi1 06-06-05, 02:44 PM	Swapping the dorjes for psicrowns of the same should work, as I find nothing preventing them from being high caster level.
Sithobi1 06-06-05, 03:03 PM	Oh, for what it's worth, Maho-Tsukai is 3.0.
SigmaJargon 06-06-05, 03:15 PM	Oh, for what it's worth, Maho-Tsukai is 3.0.OA was updated in Dragon Mag 318. Tauric is 3.0, though, and I despite that I could've sworn Wizards at least had a little blurb saying that there wasn't much to update in SS I can't seem to find it, so that's out until I either spend a few more hours slogging through WotC's website or I think of something new. :embarrass Sadly, there is a limit on the manifester level of psicrowns as well. The minimum manifester level of a psicrown is 8th. The manifester level of a psicrown cannot be more than five levels higher than the minimum manifester level for the highest-level power in the psicrown.
Tempest Stormwind 06-06-05, 03:33 PM	3 dorjes, all Manifester Level 300(I'm too lazy to figure out what I really need) and restricted to True Neutral users only: Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive These satisfy 1,2,3,6, and 9The exact values for each vary depending on the base stats and equipment, but is something like 259 or so for each of them (Formula: subtract existing numbers from 100, subtract 1, multiply by 3, add 1). A psicrown that has three powers at about that ML costs absurdly too much money (the cheapest we can get it, pre-artificer artisan feats, is about 28,409,063 GP with 12,950 power points). We're over budget already. (And by the way, LordofProcrastination, these aren't relatively unknown to anyone who uses psionics, which should be everyone. They're common powers. You likely aren't familiar with psionics, that's all.) Furthermore, these do not satisfy 9. Defensive Precognition only raises your AC and your Saving Throws -- there's no damage reduction nor any energy resistance nor any resistance to Divine damage (explicitly called out) -- the only way to get that last one that I'm aware of is levels in Athar Defiant, which will conflict with your druid levels something fierce. 1 Wand, Glibness. (+30 unnamed) Item of +30 competence bonus to Bluff 23 ranks in Bluff 18 initial cha, +5 tome, +6 cloak, +3 Venerable=+11 Skill Focus:Bluff +2 from Candle of Invocation, True Neutral +1 from Luckstone Satisfies 4. There's other ways, too, but this is sound. Build: Human Psionic Rogue 2/Bard1/Druid 17 Use Elemental Wildshape into an Air Elemental for the 100 ft fly speed. Satisfies 5, 7, and 8. Everything shown above lasts for more than 17 rounds. You don't really need to do anything special during the time you're there, so sit around and cast a cure critical wounds on yourself whenever you roll a natural 1. I'd have to see your calculations to be certain of this.
Lilt 06-06-05, 03:38 PM	7) 100 spell-levels castableClarification here? There are 3 meanings I can think of for this: The ability to cast 100 level 1 spells a day satisfies it The ability to cast one 100th level spell satisfies it The ability to cast 9th level Clerical spells, 9th level Wizard spells, and manifest 9th level psion powers gets you 27% of the way there 29% if you count cantrips Do spell-like abilities count for requirement 7?
Sithobi1 06-06-05, 03:38 PM	3 1/day command word items with the powers using the guidelines for magical items...requires a lenient DM, but... Also, there's no need for your build to have Mystic Theurge all the way, because the casting can't go above 20 anyway. A build like wiz3/dru3/cler1/bard1/wu-jen1/geomancer 10/Maho-Tsukai 1 might be better.
Sithobi1 06-06-05, 03:41 PM	It satisfies 9, because the 2 psyrogue levels give Evasion. There would be 3 psicrowns/different items, since I have lots of time to wait before they would run out.
Tempest Stormwind 06-06-05, 03:52 PM	It satisfies 9, because the 2 psyrogue levels give Evasion. There would be 3 psicrowns/different items, since I have lots of time to wait before they would run out. It actually costs more to have the different psicrowns than just the one. Plus, you have Evasion, but some of that damage is physical, and others probably don't involve a save (Divine, say), and if it does involve a save there's no guarantee it's a Reflex save (Psionics' Energy powers, when you choose Cold, usually involve a Fortitude save instead, for instance).
Caelic 06-06-05, 04:39 PM	One final question, LoP. Well, two, actually--I have an approach, but it requires ranging into some controversial rules territory. For purposes of this contest: 1. Can a magic item fulfill prestige class requirements? Could a Ring of Evasion, for instance, allow you to enter a class that requires Evasion? 2. If you enter a Prestige Class via the use of an item, and then later gain the requisite ability from a different source, do you still need the item? An example: you need an arcane caster level of 5 to enter a prestige class. At level 4, you find the ring from Complete Adventurer that raises your arcane caster level by 1. You enter the Prestige Class, which increases your caster level by 1 (to 5 without the ring, 6 with.) You now have a caster level of 5 even without the ring. Do you still need the ring?
LordofProcrastination 06-06-05, 05:04 PM	For today's menu: clarity, more clarity, some controversy, and a little more clarity. Point of Clarification #1: (And by the way, LordofProcrastination, these aren't relatively unknown to anyone who uses psionics, which should be everyone. They're common powers. You likely aren't familiar with psionics, that's all.) My "psionic trickery" comment was in reference to a different combination or two being contemplated by other challengers, not the psi-items. Sorry for the vagueness, just attempting to give those people the chance to reveal their own tricks. Point of Clarification #2: Regarding part 7 of the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge: "100 spell-levels castable." This specifically means that one must be capable of casting a total of 100 spell-levels. A spell-level is a (poorly WotC-defined) unit invented for multi-spell calculations (such as would necessary for Rods of Absorption). Here's how it works: A 1st level spell counts as one spell-level, 2nd level spell counts as two spell-levels, a 6th level spell counts as 6 spell levels, and so on. So yes, you could meet this requirement by being capable of casting 100 1st level spells (within in the duration of the challenge) OR by being capable of casting 20 5th level spells, or any other such combination. Note that you only have to actually cast 10 spell-levels during the challenge. Spell-like abilities do count (this includes Invocations). Supernatural abilities do not count. Spells cast out of items do. Controversy! This regards the Maho-Tsukai build currently being considered. Maho-Tsukai was originally published in Oriental Adventures, a 3rd edition book. Oriental Adventures itself has been errata'd by WotC for 3.0, but not for 3.5 edition. Dragon Magazine #318, by Paizo, which has a strong relationship with WotC, contained a partial update on Oriental Adventures. To quote the article: (This) is not a comprehensive revision of Oriental Adventures or even a list of errata. ... Only occasional bits of errata are included in this article. The Maho-Tsukai prestige class was not altered in this article. Some spells were listed as possible Maho-spells, but the text of the prestige class was untouched. Makes it tricky to say whether Maho-Tsukai has been 3.5-updated for competitive play just by that. It's up in the air. But wait, there's more. Unearthed Arcana included, in its Campaign-wide-variant chapter, under the "Taint" subtitle, a prestige class titled "Tainted Sorcerer." After replacing "Maho-Tsukai" with "Tainted Sorcerer" and "the Shadowlands" with "a tainted area" and other cosmetic word-choices in the descriptive text of the class, it's clear that they are thematically identical. The only mechanical difference is the switch from a separate spell-list/spells-per-day chart to "+1 level existing spellcasting class" progression, a typical feature of 3.5 updates. In short, these two are almost mechanically identical. Good for the controversy, right? It's an undeniable 3.5 update! Here's the bad news, which you might have already caught: it's in Unearthed Arcana, which is banned from this challenge. So, we are caught between allowing the Dragon-passed-over 3.xx version of Maho-Tsukai from the original Oriental Adventures on merit of the partial Dragon update, disallowing it due to the admitted non-completion of the Dragon errata, or disallowing it because in 3.5, it is officially an Unearthed-Arcana-based variant prestige class. Discuss. :twitch: On to Clarification #3: There is still some confusion about the damage from sub-challenge #9. Let's deal with that. The elemental and divine damage sources are Reflex-based, as per a clarification of rule 9c. To be deadly precise, a DC 100 Reflex save will half the damage dealt by the Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, and Divine sources. A Reflex save with Evasion drops these damages to nothing. A Reflex failure with Improved Evasion halves these damages. If you haven't guessed, these damages abstractly represent spell/supernatural-ability-based damages, which are by and large Reflex-save-able. There are a few exceptions, but so it goes. The Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic) damages are NOT save-able. AC is also irrelevant. Only Damage Reduction, "virtual damage reduction" (as granted by some spells), and the 50% miss chance granted by Incorporeality can negate these damages. Finally, Clarification #4 Challenge #4, the +100 skill check bonus has been clarified much in the same way that the Saves challenge has been errata'd: 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check ---- 4a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected skill check.. This is a necessary change to avoid cherry-picking of specialist and circumstance-dependent applications of skills. For example, a build doesn't succeed on the skill bonus challenge if his Concentration check bonus is +96, while his "Concentration check to cast a spell defensively" bonus is +100. Also, the spell Glibness is out, because it excludes the use of Bluff for feints. Yes, the challenge is a little trickier this way, but I believe that it is more firmly rooted in the spirit of all-around robustness. Answers to Caelic's Questions: Items cannot be used to qualify for prestige classes in this challenge. I know that there is much support for the opposite of this in regular play. In my own campaigns, I play such that items can be used. For this challenge, I make this ruling in order to pre-empt a rather touchy, infinitely-cascading set of arguments regarding when someone could obtain certain items, whether virtual feats or spells-castable count, how to define the difference between "as" versus "like" regarding the granting of certain class features, and why item presence affects or does not affect characters post-acceptance into prestige classes. This is a simplifying decision for the challenge and will make any builds procurred without early-item reliance more legitimate in the public eye. If anyone feels strongly that eliminating items as prestige-class-enablers disrupts his or her build, or would like to discuss the finer points of my ruling, please contact me by PM to make your case. I get the feeling that most of you will agree, at very least, that this will keep this thread on-track and on-topic.
Caelic 06-06-05, 05:17 PM	No problems with the ruling here--I'm just trying to look at all possible avenues to the stated goal. I remain confident that Ethereal Doppelganger abuse will see me through! (Does anyone know if the ELH has been updated for 3.5? That would make this a WHOLE lot easier...)
Axle_Steelcat 06-06-05, 05:42 PM	ELH is 3.0 - new epic stuff is in the DMG.
Erudite 06-06-05, 05:53 PM	Furthermore, these do not satisfy 9. Defensive Precognition only raises your AC and your Saving Throws -- there's no damage reduction nor any energy resistance nor any resistance to Divine damage (explicitly called out) -- the only way to get that last one that I'm aware of is levels in Athar Defiant, which will conflict with your druid levels something fierce. I think if you have tons of PPs and are Elan, you could ignore some of this damage for at least a round or two (depending on how much you are stopping) With a mindfeeder weapon, and some targets this could go on for a while.
Caelic 06-06-05, 06:05 PM	ELH is 3.0 - new epic stuff is in the DMG. Sadly, they didn't include epic monsters, which is what I'm really after--something nice, sickeningly powerful, and non-unique.
Elgonn 06-06-05, 07:33 PM	Sadly, they didn't include epic monsters, which is what I'm really after--something nice, sickeningly powerful, and non-unique. There are plenty of 3.5 Epic monsters. Just not in a 3.5 ELH but in the 3.5 SRD.
Lilt 06-06-05, 07:51 PM	Sadly, they didn't include epic monsters, which is what I'm really after--something nice, sickeningly powerful, and non-unique.I was thinking allong those lines too... The White Slaad would make nice Shapechange fodder (24HD, Str 36, Dex 26, con 36)and sure other creatures would be nicely Gate-able. I'm wondering if an entire buld could be based on having a single ridiculous attribute. If you could get your Wis or Dex insanely high using templates (as close to 200 as you can go) then it'd only take a bit of jiggery-pokery to get attack bonus, AC, a Skill, and a Save high enough. Does anybody know of templates/races/spells that can springboard this technique given that Festering Anger isn't legal? Meta Items I'm considering: Marshal 1 (Save boosting aura, Skill boosting aura, you take one and your cohort takes the other) Warlock 1 (save-boosting invocation) Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter (Divine Grace) (Also Prestige Paladin) Evasion + Uber Reflex + CL15 Rhiteous Might = Damage reduced to 3/round Uber Reflex -> Uber Dex -> Good AC, Attack, and Skills (And spells/day for illumians) Greater Visage of the Deity (Unnamed attribute boosts, good flight speed, resistances) Item Familiar from UA can give you +23 on a skill
PhaedrusXY 06-06-05, 08:21 PM	I'm thinking of trying to put together a Monk/Sorc/Witch Hunter/SacredExorcist/Arcane Duelist with Aescetic Mage for this, if I have time.
DisposableHero_ 06-06-05, 08:41 PM	The following build is a joint effort between myself and Urnsk, with special thanks to Otto the Bugbear, who’s AC record thread helped get this idea off the ground. The Shepard: Human Wilder10/Thrallherd10 Stats: Charisma 16 (10 points), Wisdom 14 (6 Points), Intelligence 18 (16 points) Feats: Overchannel (1), Extend Power (Human), Expanded Knowledge (Mindlink) (3), Psionic Meditation (6), Expanded Knowledge (Hostile Empathic Transfer) (9), Expanded Knowledge (Hustle) (12), Quicken Power (15), Twin Power (18) Powers: Hostile Empathic Transfer, Hustle, Inertial Armor, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Force Screen, Assimilate, Dissipating Touch, Temporal Acceleration Class Features: Thrallherd, Twofold Master Skills: Concentration 23 ranks, Use Psionic Device 10 ranks (cross class) Gear: Psicrown (Manifester level 17, 850 power points, Timeless Body, Schism) (153,000 gp), Scroll of Minute Form (CL 19) x2 (7,600 gp), Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity (CL 20) (4,500 gp), Tome of Clear Thought +5 (137,500 gp), Scroll of Draconic Polymorph (CL 12) x2 (3000 gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp), Scroll of Divine Power (CL 20) (2000 gp), Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (30,000 gp), Stone of Good Luck (20,000 gp), Powerstone of Psychofeedback (ML 20) (5,000 gp), Ioun Stone +2 int (8,000 gp), Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000 gp), Scroll of Divine Favor (CL 20) x2 (1,000 gp), Bracers of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000 gp), Scroll of Righteous Aura (CL 7) (700 GP) Total Cost: 594,300 gp (155,700 gp remaining) Cohorts: The Saint Venerable Half Fey Star Elf Saint Bard4/Fighter1/War Chanter3/Holy Liberator4/Cleric1 Stats: Wisdom 18 (16 Points), Charisma 18 (16 Points) Feats: Nymph’s Kiss (1), Weapon Focus (3), Combat Expertise (Fighter1), Iron Will (6), Insightful Strike (9), 1 Exalted Feat (12) Class Features: Inspire Recklessness, Divine Grace, Charm Domain Skills: Use Magic Device 16 Ranks Gear: Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (137,500 gp), Tome of Understanding +5 (137,500 gp), Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp) Total Cost: 311,000 gp (29,000 gp remaining) The Sinner Human Monk2/Fighter2/Marshall1/Tattooed Monk10/Blackguard2 Stats: Strength 13 (5 points), Dexterity 13 (5 points), Intelligence 13 (5 points) Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1), Improved Grapple (Monk 1), Power Attack (1), Cleave (Fighter1), Endurance (3), Improved Sunder (Fighter2), Weapon Focus (Touch Attacks) (6), Weapon Focus (Rays) (9), Reckless Offense (12), Zen Archery (15) Class Features: Dark Blessing, Bellflower Tattoo, Mountain Tattoo, Dragonfly Tattoo, Two Other Tattoos, Motivate Charisma Gear: Vest of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp), Gloves of Fusion (Fusion 2/day manifester level 15) (108,500 gp), Ring of Use Magic Device +20 (40,000 gp) 173,500 gp (166,500 gp remaining) Process: Preparation: This is outside of the challenge itself and is expected to be undertaken directly before Earlier that day preparation: When the saint isn’t looking The Shepard assimilates a small animal, gaining a +4 nameless bonus to all stats for 1 hour, The Shepard manifests Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, the saint UMDs draconic polymorph to become a humanoid (rather than fey) and the three fusion, the gloves of fusion being replaced with the gloves of dexterity during the second fusion, then the second draconic polymorph scroll is used to turn the resulting creature into an astral diva. Activate the righteous aura scroll. All of this occurs about 5 minutes before showtime. Round 1: Manifest Schism through psicrown, overchannel to manifester level 21 Round 2: Schism: Use power stone of psychofeedback, int -20 (ending at 5), dexterity +20, The Shepard: Use Scroll of Divine Power Round 3: Activate Mountain Tattoo, Use Scroll of Divine Favor, Activate Dragonfly Tattoo Round 4: Free Action: Activate charm domain ability, Schism: Use Bellflower Tattoo (on charisma), The Shepard: Use scroll of Minute Form Round 5: Schism: Use Bellflower Tattoo (on charisma), The Shepard: Use Bellflower Tattoo (on wisdom) Begin Challenge Duraitons Remaining: Righteous Aura - 6 hours 55 minutes Assimilate – 55 minutes Inertial Armor – 17 hours 55 minutes Force Screen – 13 minutes Offensive Precognition – 13 minutes Defensive Precognition – 2 hours 55 minutes Fusion – 10 minutes Draconic Polymorph – 4 minutes Schism – 17 rounds Bellflower Tattoos – 10 rounds (see rebuffing) Minute Form – 9 rounds (see rebuffing) Charm Domain – 2 rounds (not used in the charisma calculation other than as a jump off point for bellflower tattoo activation) Psychofeedback – 17 rounds Divine Power – 17 rounds Mountain Tattoo – 8 rounds (see move rounds) Divine Favor - 7 rounds (see rebuffing) Standard Rounds: Schism – Activate Psicrown (Timeless Body) The Shepard – Manifest Twin Power Dissipating Touch for total 30d6 damage (on two +101 touch attacks) averaging 105 damage, move action to regain psionic focus (DC 20 with 23 ranks and +13 bonus from con) Move Rounds: The Shepard– Free action: release mountain tattoo, Move Action: fly 100 feet and land (astral diva) Schism – Activate Mountain Tattoo The Shepard – Standard action: twin dissipating touch (30d6), Swift Action: Hustle, Move Action: Regain Psionic Focus This may be conducted a total of 4 times during the 17 rounds but only needs to be conducted twice. Rounds After Move Rounds: As standard round but switch twin dissipating touch for twin hostile empathic transfer, using two touch attacks to deal 100 damage and heal 100 hp. Rebuffing When an effect ends (or in the case of the bellflower tattoo is about to end) the shepard will use a swift action at the end of his round to manifest temporal acceleration, and use the actions gained there to renew the effect. Each of the above effects has enough uses included in the equipment or class features to last the full 17 rounds. Note: The Shepard suffers 100 damage each time he moves, and regains it the following round by switching his attack from dissipating touch to hostile empathic transfer, during the other 15 rounds The Shepard is completely IMPERVIOUS TO HARM Statistic Calculations: Charisma Calculation Base 18 +2 Racial (Star Elf) +4 Template (Half Fey) +4 Template (Saint) +3 Age (Venerable) +3 Unnamed (Level Adjustment) +6 Enhancement (Cloak of Charisma) +5 Inherent (Tome) +4 Unnamed (Assimilate) +4 Unnamed (Charm Domain) +4 Unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity) +4 Sacred (righteous aura) 61 (+25) +25 Enhancement (Bellflower) (replaces the old +6) 76 (+33) +33 Enhancement (Bellflower) (replaces the old +23) 86 (+38) -4 Unnamed (Charm Domain Expires) 82 (+36) After Rebuff: 85 (+37) Wisdom Calculation Base 18 +2 Template (Half Fey) +2 Template (Saint) +3 Age (Venerable) +5 Inherent (Tome) +4 Unnamed (Mountain Tattoo) +4 Unnamed (Assimilate) +4 Unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity) +38 Enhancement (Bellflower) 80 (+35) After Rebuff: 79 (+34) Dexterity Calculation Base 18 (Astral Diva) +6 Enhancement (Gloves of Dexterity) +20 Unnamed (Psychofeedback) +4 Unnamed (Assimilate) +2 Unnamed (Greater Visage of the Diety) +8 Size (Minute Form) 58 (+24) Constitution Calculation Base 18 (Astral Diva) +6 Enhancement +4 Unnamed (Assimilate) +4 Unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity) +2 Unnamed (Draconic Polymorph) +4 Unnamed (Mountain Tattoo) -2 Size (Minute Form) 36 (+13) Guideline Compliance: Part 1: Armor Class 100 Armor Class Calculation Base 10 +12 Armor (Inertial Armor) +8 Shield (Force Screen) +24 Dexterity (Dexterity) +35 Wisdom (Monk) +35 Insight (Saint/Wisdom) +15 Natural Armor (Astral Diva) +8 Size (Minute Form) +1 Dodge (Dragonfly/Haste) -20 Unnamed (Inspire Recklessness) -4 Reckless Offense AC 124 (122 after rebuff 1) Part 2: +100 to Hit Attack Roll Calculations: Melee Touch Attacks: (Used for Dissipating Touch and Hostile Empathic Transfer) Base +20 (Divine Power) +35 Wisdom (Insightful Strike) +20 Morale (Inspire Recklessness) +8 Size (Minute Form) +7 Insight (Offensive Precognition) +6 Luck (Divine Favor) +1 Competence (Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone) +5 Enhancement (Bracers) +1 Weapon Focus +2 Reckless Offense +1 Dragonfly Tattoo (As haste) +102 (+101 after rebuff 1) Part 3: 100 Damage Per Round See the round descriptions above. Part 4: +100 on a skill check Skill Check Calculation (Use Magic Device) +16 (Ranks) +36 (Charisma) +36 (Motivate Charisma) +20 (Competence Item) +1 (Stone of Good Luck) +109 (+111 after rebuff 1) Part 5: 100 foot movement speed Draconic Polymorph to an Astral Diva grants a 100 foot fly speed, this is used in the two move rounds, but could equally be used in any spot in which there are two consecutive standard rounds until you run out of mountain tattoo uses Part 6: +100 bonus on any saving throw Saving Throw Calculation +36 Unnamed (Divine Grace) +36 Unnamed (Dark Blessing) +7 Insight (Defensive Precognition) +5 Resistance (Vest of Resistance) +1 Luck (Stone of Good Luck) +1 Competence (Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone) +86 to all saving throws Will Save Calculation Highest Base +14 (Main character) +35 Wisdom +2 Iron Will +86 to all saving throws +137 to will saves (+138 after rebuff 1) Fortitude Save Calculation Highest Base +19 (The Sinner) +14 Constitution +86 to all saving throws +119 to fortitude saves (+121 after rebuff 1) Reflex Save Calculation Highest Base +9 (The Sinner) +24 Dexterity +86 to all saves +115 to reflex saves not counting base saves (+117 after rebuff 1) Part 7: 100 useable spell levels With 18th manifester level and a +34 charisma modifier The Shepard has 604 power points per day. This can be used to manifest 604 1st level powers, the equivalent of a 302nd level power, or 36 9th level powers. Easily totaling more than 100 levels. The Shepard discharges a minimum of a 6th level power equivalent in each round. Note: this uses the precedent of characters gaining hit points for a temporary constitution increase as evidence, but AFAIK it is neither directly supported or denied in the rules. Without this the character may run out of power points during the routine and be unable to finish, I have neither run the numbers for this, nor attempted to use his remaining wealth to max out power points to prevent it Part 8: 100 hit points With a constitution modifier of +13 and 20 hit dice, the character has a bonus from con of 260 hit points. Part 9: Can survive 100 points of damage each round For 14 of the 17 rounds this character is completely impervious to harm thanks to timeless body. The damage lingering from the remaining rounds is quickly replenished with Hostile Empathic Transfer, leaving the Shepard and his cohorts untouched at the end of their 100 seconds of dominance. Part 10: Maintain stats for 100 seconds See duration notes and the rebuff routine. This character can attain most of these benefits for upwards of 3 hours, able to dominate combat with little difficulty, having access to numerous more offensively minded draconic polymorph forms and plenty of budget left to customize his capabilities further while maintaining universal dominance of the battlefield. Note: With the left over gold from the budget it is likely possible to stuff the scrolls in to staves to allow this trick to be performed on a regular basis. :D The only really questionable material used in this build is another OA class passed over by the update in Shiba Protector. It is used to add wisdom to the attack roll and push it over the 100 mark. I think with the left over gold we could patch the build up to 100 attack roll without that, but it is certainly an easier way to go. Optional Stuff: If you're will to risk a 15% chance of mucking up your combat timing while you are slinging death rays around you can drop overchannel, move quicken power to 1st level, and take Expanded Knowledge (Schism) to activate the psicrown without Use Psionic Device. This makes using the psicrown automatic (as if it wasn't before, as you'll be UPDing at about +60 with a DC 20 check, but for those who play under open ended rolls or nat 1 is always failure) and retains the feel of a wilder as opposed to the current incarnation which is more of a one trick psion. It also frees up skill points on the main character. Without the massive ability score synergy to net +100 to everything, a Fusion based thrallherd is a really cool idea and infinitely customizable through the cohorts :D Update: Added righteous aura spell from the miniPHB as a 700 gp scroll. It gives than +4 to all saves, +5 to the will save, +1 to the attack roll, +2 to the AC and 18 bonus power points... for 700 gp!
lgw 06-06-05, 09:18 PM	congrats !! nothing more to say...
Tempest Stormwind 06-06-05, 09:28 PM	VERY impressive. Except for a single glitch. You can't use Schism on a psicrown. It's not on your power list -- it's restricted to Telepaths. You'd need Expanded Knowledge for it. Plus, I'm not sure what happens if you try to Fusion with something that is already Fusioned. Also, I'm not certain that he actually gets the bonus power points from his Charisma. He regained his power points earlier that day, and THEN his Charisma changed. I don't believe adjusting key abilities after spell/power replenishment actually does anything in terms of bonus powers. Other than that, though, wow. It looks like we have a winner. I particularily like how it is literally a union of psionics, arcane magic, and divine magic.
DisposableHero_ 06-06-05, 09:33 PM	VERY impressive. Except for a single glitch. You can't use Schism on a psicrown. It's not on your power list -- it's restricted to Telepaths. You'd need Expanded Knowledge for it. Plus, I'm not sure what happens if you try to Fusion with something that is already Fusioned. Also, I'm not certain that he actually gets the bonus power points from his Charisma. He regained his power points earlier that day, and THEN his Charisma changed. I don't believe adjusting key abilities after spell/power replenishment actually does anything in terms of bonus powers. Other than that, though, wow. It looks like we have a winner. I particularily like how it is literally a union of psionics, arcane magic, and divine magic. 1) Schism - Good point, I'll toss some crossclass ranks in use psionic device and clear that mess up. 2) It doesn't mention that you can't, it only states you can't fission a fusion, but I just treat it like two creatures fusing, with one being the net result of a fusion, seems pretty straight forward there. 3) the bonus power points aren't too big an issue, I'd have to run the numbers to see where he runs out of PP without them, but I have the gold left to up the manifester level and stuff the offensive powers on the psicrown to make it work. the 280 power points he has from class qualify as 100 spell levels, and he has uses more than 10 in his buffs. Come to think of it, a psicrown wouldn't jive with the metapsionics would it... I'm fairly confidant he would gain power points in the same way that an increase in constitution grants more hit points. I don't mind putting that little qualifier on it though, as the rest is pretty clean 4) Thanks :D
Tempest Stormwind 06-06-05, 09:39 PM	1) Schism - Good point, I'll toss some crossclass ranks in use psionic device and clear that mess up. 2) It doesn't mention that you can't, it only states you can't fission a fusion, but I just treat it like two creatures fusing, with one being the net result of a fusion, seems pretty straight forward there. 3) the bonus power points aren't too big an issue, I'd have to run the numbers to see where he runs out of PP without them, but I have the gold left to up the manifester level and stuff the offensive powers on the psicrown to make it work. the 280 power points he has from class qualify as 100 spell levels, and he has uses more than 10 in his buffs. 4) Thanks :D 1) That should work wonders. Alternately, see if Able Learner can fit in there somewhere. EDIT -- here's another potential solution: Drop Overchannel. You're a WILDER! Use your Wild Surge. Risk the Enervation -- since you're doing it during a prep round and have piles of PP, you can afford to risk it and retry again later. Replace the feat with Expanded Knowledge (Schism) and rearrange when you take the metapsi feats. 2) I'm still a bit leery here, if for no other reason than I had nightmares about Devastator when I was five (I had just seen the Transformers movie on the big screen and I had a vivid memory and imagination. So sue me.). 3) Oh, I wasn't saying you'd fail if you lost them. Only that it's not QUITE as sustainable as it seems. :D 4) I forgot to mention: It's great how it comes with a team of followers (believers) which you can do with as you see fit. I would suggest having 100 of them them dye their hair green and wear nothing but blue robes, and wandering mindlessly for 100 seconds, humming very catchy tunes, serving only as fodder for Hostile Empathic Transfer while you name them "Exploder." Cookies for anyone who gets the reference. You know, this was actually the most entertaining uberbuild I've read about in ages. Fun to read, three somewhat versatile characters, all themed correctly, using no rules loopholes that I can spot... I think this belongs in the Hall of Fame.
DisposableHero_ 06-06-05, 10:01 PM	1) That should work wonders. Alternately, see if Able Learner can fit in there somewhere. EDIT -- here's another potential solution: Drop Overchannel. You're a WILDER! Use your Wild Surge. Risk the Enervation -- since you're doing it during a prep round and have piles of PP, you can afford to risk it and retry again later. Replace the feat with Expanded Knowledge (Schism) and rearrange when you take the metapsi feats. 2) I'm still a bit leery here, if for no other reason than I had nightmares about Devastator when I was five (I had just seen the Transformers movie on the big screen and I had a vivid memory and imagination. So sue me.). 1) I thought about that, I didn't plan on using wild surge originally because I was afraid it might mess up the timing on the attack powers (particularly the ML 20 30d6 quickened disintegrates) with its dazing. I think I'll keep overchannel in there, since even a 1/2 rank in UPD does the trick, as the charisma is in the low 50s by the time you need to use it. 2) You've just doomed me to creating a 5 warforged team with fusion and giant size :D
PhaedrusXY 06-06-05, 10:10 PM	You know, this was actually the most entertaining uberbuild I've read about in ages. Fun to read, three somewhat versatile characters, all themed correctly, using no rules loopholes that I can spot... I think this belongs in the Hall of Fame.I agree. This is a great build. I didn't read through it thoroughly looking for errors, but I don't see any glaring ones. The only thing that I have a question about is whether you can use the Bellflower Tattoo over and over to incrementally boost your Cha and Wis like that. But I admit I haven't read up on the rules to check it. (I'm at work, as usual when I post on here. :D ) This reminds me more of Voltron than the transformers. I wasn't as huge of a transformers fan as some of my friends, and in one MMORPG I played in people were always talking about forming Voltron when we got a big group of people together to go PvP with. :P
Tempest Stormwind 06-06-05, 10:13 PM	2) You've just doomed me to creating a 5 warforged team with fusion and giant size :D "...and I'll form the head!" ...sorry. By the way, I think that if you only Surge the amount you need (three or so) you can pull this off just fine. That's only a 15% chance of enervation (3/20), which is sufficiently small for me. :D
DisposableHero_ 06-06-05, 10:17 PM	"...and I'll form the head!" ...sorry. By the way, I think that if you only Surge the amount you need (three or so) you can pull this off just fine. That's only a 15% chance of enervation (3/20), which is sufficiently small for me. :D I'll stuff it in there as a note, but I would prefer to retain the "always works" purity that it stands on now for the most part
DisposableHero_ 06-06-05, 11:31 PM	I agree. This is a great build. I didn't read through it thoroughly looking for errors, but I don't see any glaring ones. The only thing that I have a question about is whether you can use the Bellflower Tattoo over and over to incrementally boost your Cha and Wis like that. But I admit I haven't read up on the rules to check it. (I'm at work, as usual when I post on here. :D ) First off thanks :D I'm glad you like it. Bellflower Tattoo is pretty simple, it adds your charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any stat (and it singles out that charisma is possible) This leads to some wierd interaction. The first time he uses the bellflower on his charisma it is sitting at 57 (+23) (with a +6 enhancement from a cloak), using bellflower on charisma gives it a +23 enhancement bonus, which overwrites the enhancement of the cloak, netting a gain of 17, for 74 (+32) charisma. The second time it is used it grants a +32 which overwrites the +23, bumping the charisma to 83. He gets 5 per day (he has 5 tattoos), he uses two to jump the charisma to 83 and one to get + 36 to wisdom while its sitting there. I don't know of anywhere that excludes this being used successively, and it gives diminishing returns. I use it twice on charisma and then once on wisdom at the start and then before the durations run out I use it again on charisma (for a small loss when the duration of the first expires as I lost a +4 from the charm domain that was used to jump start it) and then again on wisdom just to extend the duration to the full 17 rounds. When I built it up the first time I had tattooed monk on both cohorts to get the max number of uses out bellflower (7 tattoos would get me a +36 enhancement to dexterity, which would improve the AC) but I thought that might be pushing the cheese a bit and it worked out with just one (plus I couldn't fit war chanter in if both characters we lawful).
LordofProcrastination 06-07-05, 12:42 AM	Congratulations to DisposableHero_ and Urnsk on being the very first to effectively complete a build which matches up to the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge! And after only 36 hours! Their build will be enshrined in the very first challenge post that all who read might feel hope for the potential of the Character Optimization board. :clap: Truly, this bodes well for things to come... For everyone else interested in taking up the challenge (or currently scheming on a build), do not be discouraged by DisposableHero and Urnsk's success! The essence of this challenge is innovation and versatility, so let's see what else can defeat all ten goals. On a more technical note, considering the still-questionable nature of Oriental Adventures source material, could we work out a way to for The Shepherd to meet the Attack Bonus challenge without using OA? Don't want anyone to say that it takes 3.0 material and psionics to stay on top in D&D... ;)
carnivore 06-07-05, 12:51 AM	excellent...simply excellent.....well done :clap: :clap: :clap: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :D
Norhg 06-07-05, 03:20 AM	Honest Statement : I will not post my build, it uses the fusion tactic seen here but not at all near as graciously as Sinner & Saint & Shepard. My build relies on dominating a tarrasque and fusioning with it to gain über stats (48 bab :rolleyes:, saves of a hd 48 creature, damage reduction 15/epic etc etc). :w00t: for being first. -Besides, you have typed out an awfull lot of numbers =/. I don't want to do that ;).
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 09:26 AM	On a more technical note, considering the still-questionable nature of Oriental Adventures source material, could we work out a way to for The Shepherd to meet the Attack Bonus challenge without using OA? Well, without OA the build needs to get 21 points of attack bonus from 1 class level and about 400,000 gp, noting that base attack, morale and insight bonuses are already used. I'm open to suggestions.
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 09:57 AM	Ok, added Reckless Offense, 2 Scrolls of Divine Favor, Insightful Strike, Bracers of Mighty Fists +5, Weapon Focus, and Dragonfly Tattoo to compensate for the lack of Shiba Protector. I also bumped tattooed monk up to ten to give me a little more breathing room on the tattoo durations and added descriptions for dragonfly reactivation rounds and rebuff 3 in order to fit it all into the routine. The AC and reflex saves have changed slightly, but I'll update those later
thegreatbuddha 06-07-05, 09:58 AM	Add Fighter 1 and take the Zen Archery feat.
Gimp 06-07-05, 10:16 AM	... Move Rounds: THE SHEPARD – Free action: release mountain tattoo, Move Action: fly 100 feet and land (astral diva) Schism – Activate Mountain Tattoo THE SHEPARD – Standard action: twin energy ray (34d6+34), Swift Action: Hustle, Move Action: Regain Psionic Focus ... Isn't this one move action to much? I'm not very familar with psionics but this looks like 2 move actions and one standard action beside the stuff Schism does.
Tempest Stormwind 06-07-05, 10:30 AM	Isn't this one move action to much? I'm not very familar with psionics but this looks like 2 move actions and one standard action beside the stuff Schism does. Hustle costs a swift action to use and grants you an extra move action. Most frequently seen in psion builds to do exactly this -- recover focus for no time at all if you can spend 3 power points and have the Psionic Meditation feat. Add Fighter 1 and take the Zen Archery feat. He needs the +100 on both melee and ranged attack rolls, I think (I'll reread the rules in a minute) but this is probably a very sound suggestion. EDIT -- no, he DOESN'T!!! And since his primary means of attack seem to be ray attacks, Zen Archery is probably the best choice anyway.
insatium 06-07-05, 10:30 AM	Can someone give me a link to discussion on the Master of Many Forms/Master Transmogrifist form stacking? I remember a thread someplace, but couldn't find it while grinding through the back pages of the last month or so.
polishhappycow 06-07-05, 11:37 AM	Unless I missed something, you didn't include the size bonus to AC for being minute. Doesn't hurt to have that AC just a bit higher ;)
Fwib 06-07-05, 11:53 AM	Fusion costs xp, can this be accounted for?
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 01:57 PM	Fusion costs xp, can this be accounted for? The fusion is supplied by a 2/day use activate item, the base cost for this item is the one I listed: 8 (power level) x 15 (manifester level) x 2000 x 2/5 (uses per day) = 96,000 gp I know this will be adjusted by the fusion XP cost but I'm not sure by how much, if someone can find this for me it would be a big help (fusion is 50XP per use)
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 02:20 PM	Ok, the AC has been updated, I've added Insightful Strike (BoED) and Zen Archery to get wisdom to both melee and ranged attacks and removed weapon finesse. I've also switched energy ray for dissipating touch, as his inspire recklessness and reckless offense don't affect his ranged attacks so I'm moved him to primarily melee touch spells, the ranged ones are still an option, but they are only at +78 to hit at the moment (as if that was somehow shabby). I'm going to scan my books when I get home for alternatives to the quickened psionic disintegrates for 100+ swift melee damage using UMD/UPD.
SigmaJargon 06-07-05, 02:22 PM	The cost is 50*5*50 = 12,500 gold. The calculation is based on the "ESTIMATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES" table (its at the very bottom, also look at note 5). You item then has a total cost of 108,500gp. The Sinner has plenty of leftover money to cover this discrepancy.
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 02:36 PM	The cost is 50*5*50 = 12,500 gold. The calculation is based on the "ESTIMATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES" table (its at the very bottom, also look at note 5). You item then has a total cost of 108,500gp. The Sinner has plenty of leftover money to cover this discrepancy. Thanks Sigma, I'll edit that in. I'm going to remove the section on ranged attacks and go all melee touch attacks, to do this I will be adding temporal acceleration to rebuff without spending my actions.
Fwib 06-07-05, 03:22 PM	Fusion costs xp, can this be accounted for?The fusion is supplied by a 2/day use activate item, the base cost for this item is the one I listed:...That'll teach me not to read carefully.
Need_A_Life 06-07-05, 03:33 PM	Okay, I don't have a lot of splatbooks, but I'll give a few pointers. Wish ad nauseum: Requires: Level 9 arcane spells, Thought Bottle (CArc. 20,000gp). 'Save' XP progress, cast wish a dozen times, 'recall' it; repeat (If you save each time, you might lose a lot of XP, but who cares?). You can even create rubies worth 25,000gp, sell them (for 12,500gp), create a Ring of Three wishes (XP +~11,000gp), recall your XP and repeat. Gestalt... 'nuf said, don't even own the book and I see great potential.
Caelic 06-07-05, 03:59 PM	Okay, I don't have a lot of splatbooks, but I'll give a few pointers. Wish ad nauseum: Requires: Level 9 arcane spells, Thought Bottle (CArc. 20,000gp). 'Save' XP progress, cast wish a dozen times, 'recall' it; repeat (If you save each time, you might lose a lot of XP, but who cares?). You can even create rubies worth 25,000gp, sell them (for 12,500gp), create a Ring of Three wishes (XP +~11,000gp), recall your XP and repeat. Gestalt... 'nuf said, don't even own the book and I see great potential. Err...those would be good pointers, if not for the fact that the Thought Bottle is the one item specifically banned from the competition, and Unearthed Arcana (which is where Gestalt rules are found) is the one 3.5 book specifically banned. Arcane Miracles can accomplish most of what you suggested above without experience loss, however.
Fwib 06-07-05, 04:58 PM	...create rubies worth 25,000gp, sell them (for 12,500gp)...Arn't gems and objets d'art etc sellable for full value?
Sithobi1 06-07-05, 06:24 PM	Well, if we can have custom psionic items using the same formula as the magic items, my build should work, I believe, using the items I added a few posts after it was shown that neither the psicrown nor the Dorje would work.
DisposableHero_ 06-07-05, 08:39 PM	*goes back through the thread* 3 dorjes, all Manifester Level 300(I'm too lazy to figure out what I really need) and restricted to True Neutral users only: Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive These satisfy 1,2,3,6, and 9 3 1/day command word items with the powers using the guidelines for magical items...requires a lenient DM, but... Is this what you're referring to? Because this assumes a few things that I doubt are going to fly.
Sithobi1 06-08-05, 02:02 AM	*goes back through the thread* Is this what you're referring to? Because this assumes a few things that I doubt are going to fly. Yes. and...namely?
Urnsk 06-08-05, 03:16 AM	Urnsk has not been idle. Here is a build which, while it uses Psionics, doesn't rely on Fusion; note that most of the psionic spells used have similar spells, other than Assimilate and Graft Weapon. I used the Psychic Circlet because I didn't want to reinvent the wheel; it's in my AC builds, and similar items are found in the AC thread. Special thanks to Disposable Hero for nitpicking and helping perfect the build. Morphling Venerable Human 1 Bard [Able Learner, Nymph's Kiss] 2 Marshal [Skill Focus: Diplomacy] 3 Druid [Quicken Spell] 4. Psychic Warrior [Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse] 5. Bard 6. Chameleon [Dodge] 7. Chameleon (Snowflake Wardancer*) 8. Combat Medic (Bard) 9. Combat Medic (Bard) [Craft Magic Item] 10 Combat Medic (Bard) [Mobility] 11. Combat Medic (Bard) 12. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) [Negotiator] 13. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) 14. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) 15. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) [Exceptional Artisan] 16. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) 17. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) 18. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) [Forge Ring] 19. Fochlucan Lyrist (Chameleon/Bard) *Bonus feat from Chameleon. In the past, used for Magical Artisan: Forge Ring, Magical Artisan: Craft Wondrous Items, Craft: Rod, Extra Spell, Craft Contingent Spell, and other Item Creation feats used. Default for most days is Snowflake Wardancer Stats: Every stat is relevant. Fortunately, this isn't a terribly difficult issue to surmount. Str: (Note: The character first Shapechanges into a Gloura, gaining the Gloura special abilities; he then Draconic Polymorph's into a Sand Giant) 27 Base (Draconic Polymorph to Sand Giant) 8 unnamed (Draconic Polymorph to Planetar) 6 enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) -10 Size (Minute Form) -20 Ability burn (Psychofeedback) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) +4 unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity) Net: 19 (+4) Dex: 21 Base (Sand Giant) 8 Size (Minute Form) 6 Enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) 4 unnamed (Assimilate) 2 unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity) 20 unnamed (Psychofeedback) Net: 61 (+25) Con 21 base (Sand Giant) 2 unnamed (Draconic Polymorph) -2 size (Minute Form) 6 Enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) 4 unnamed (Assimilate) 4 unnamed (Greater Visage of the Deity Net: 35 (+12) Int 8 base 3 age 6 point buy 4 assimilate 2 Greater Visage of the Deity 6 Enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) Net: 29 (+9) Wis 8 base 3 age 8 point buy (10 points) 4 assimilate 4 Greater Visage of the Deity 6 Enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) 1 Inherant (Tome of Understanding) Net: 34 (+12) Cha 8 base 3 age 10 point buy (16 points) 4 assimilate 4 Greater Visage of the Deity 6 Enhancement (Cloak of Magnificence) 4 (level adjustment) 5 Inherant (Tome of Leadership and Influence) 4 (Sacred, Ioun Stone of Righteous Aura) Net: 48 (+19) Total Skill Points (Assumes the character began adventuring at Old Age): Bard: 55 Marshal: 9 Druid: 9 Psychic Warrior: 7 Chameleon: 18 Combat Medic: 28 Fochlucan Lyrist: 88 Total Points: 214. With Able Learner, once a skill is a Class skill in one class, it is effectively a Class Skill in all classes; at levels 11-20, all skills are effectively class skills. Craft: Weapons, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, and Use Psionic Device are maxed (though UPD is cc). All relevant synergies are taken to at least 5 ranks. This leaves some place around 80 skill points for qualifying for PrCs. Rounds of Preparation before combat: 1. Scroll of Energy Immunity: Fire (Duration: 24 hours), Activate Motivate Charisma 2. Scroll of Energy Immunity: Sonic (Duration: 24 hours) 3. Greater Magic Weapon, Longsword (Duration: 20 hours) [Chameleon] 4. Powerstone of Graft Weapon, Longsword (Duration: 24 hours) 5. Robe of Morphing Miniature to Shapechange into Gloura (Duration: 190 minutes) 6. Assimilate a creature from Bag of Tricks (Duration: 60 minutes) 7. Scroll of Draconic Polymorph into Sand Giant (Duration: 15 minutes) 8. Scroll of Celestial Blood (Duration: 20 minutes) 9. Cast Celestial Aspect: Wings of the Astral Diva (Duration: 11 Minutes) [Wu-Jen] 10. Psychic Circlet: Inertial Armor (Duration: 19 hours) 11. Psychic Circlet: Thicken Skin (Duration: 190 minutes) 12. Psychic Circlet: Force Screen (Duration: 19 minutes) 13. Power Stone of Defensive Precognition (Duration: 20 minutes) 14. Cast Conviction (Duration: 20 minutes) (Chameleon) 14. Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity (Duration: 20 Rounds) 16. Cast Divine Power (Duration: 20 Rounds) (Chameleon) 17. Quickened Divine Favor (Duration: 10 rounds) (Chameleon), Robe: Minute Form (Duration: 20 rounds) *End Buffing: Commence Combat* 1-17 Fine sized, with Flight. Each round but the first, uses Ring of Harm to cast Harm on target. On Odd rounds, Morphling flies to the target with his move action. On Even rounds, he flies away. Also, every round (as needed; up to 17 times) 1. Activate Snowflake Wardance Feat; Good Hope; Harm (Quickened Via Rod of Quicken) 9. Quickened Divine Favor;(Duration: 10 Rounds) 14. Contingent Heal is cast 16. Quickened Meeting the Requirements 1) 100 AC: +10 (Base) +19 (Unearthly Grace; Gloura) +8 (Fine Size; Minute Form) +25 (Dexterity) +8 (Augmented Force Shield; Psychic Circlet of Protection) +7 (Augmented Thicken Skin; Psychic Circlet of Protection) +13 (Augmented Inertial Armor; Psychic Circlet of Protection) +12 (Wisdom, Monk’s Belt) +1 (Unnamed, Monks Belt) +11 (Natural, Sand Giant) Total: 114 2) +100 to hit +20 (Insight, Ring of Righteous Strikes) +19 (BAB; Divine Power) +8 (Fine Size; Minute Form) +25 (Dexterity; Weapon Finesse) +6 (Luck, Divine Favor) +19 (unnamed Charisma; Snowflake Dancer) +5 (Enhancement; Greater Magic Weapon) +1 (Competence, Graft Weapon) +2 (Moral, Good Hope) Total: 105 3) 100 Damage Ring of Harm, Use Activated 4) +100 Bonus to Selected Skill +22 (Ranks in Diplomacy) +19 (Charisma) +19 (Circumstance, Motivate Charisma, Marshal) +3 (Skill Focus: Diplomacy; Marshal) +2 (Synergy, Bluff) +2 (Synergy: Knowledge Nobility and Royalty) +2 (Synergy: Sense Motive) +30 (Competance, Amulet of Diplomacy) +2 (Nymph’s Kiss) +2 (Morale, Good Hope) +2 (Negotiator) Total: 108 5) 100 ft movement speed Celestial Aspect: Wings of the Astral Diva grant wings and a flight speed of 100 (good). This movement is maintained repeatedly throughout the challenge. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex, or Will Saves +12 (Base Ref Saves) +25 (Dexterity) +19 (Ruin Delver’s Fortune, Ring, Constant effect) +19 (Unearthly Grace, Gloura) +5 (Resistance, Cloak of Resistance) +5 (Luck, Ioun Stone of Lucky Saves) +5 (Sacred; Ioun Stone of the Holy) +5 (Morale, Conviction, Chameleon) +7 (Insight, Defensive Precognition) Total: 102 7) 100 spell-levels castable Wu-Jen Levels: 2 (2 = 2) Chameleon Levels: 6/5/5/5/4/1 (6/10/15/20/20/6 = 77) Druid Levels: 4/2 (4/4 = 8) Bard Levels: - 8/8/8/7/6/4 (8/16/24/28/24 = 100) Total Spell levels available: 187 Total Cast in Combat: +5 (Quickened Divine Favor); +3 (Good Hope) +6 (Quickened Harm) = 14 8) 100 Hit Points 73 (Class Hit Dice) 228 (Con modifier * 19) Total: 301 9) Survive 100 Hit Points of Possible Damage each round DR 10/Evil beats all three physical forms (Celestial Blood) (20 Remaining) Evasion + Ref 100 = ignoring the energies; backup 10 Res to all energies but Profane and Divine. 10) Do it all for 100 seconds (17 rounds) All spells but Divine Favor, Heal, and Harm last for the entire 17 rounds of the challenge; Divine Favor is cast again before it expires, Harm is cast each round through the ring, and Heal is contingency cast the one time it is needed. Equipment: * indicates an item detailed at the end of the build Bracers of the Righteous Strike* (70000 gp, 2800 xp) Amulet of Diplomacy* (15,750 gp, 630 xp) Bard's Ring of Ruin Delver's Fortune* (56,000 gp, 2240 xp) Shirt of Magnificence (Belt of Magnificence put to Shirt slot; both are “Physical Improvement”) (75,000 gp, 3,000 xp) Rod of Quicken (63,750 gp, 2,550 xp) Psychic Circlet of Protection * (25,650 gp) Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (137,500 gp) Tome of Understanding +1 (27,500 gp) Masterwork Long Sword (160 gp) Ring of Harm (Use Activated) (36,000 gp, 1440 xp) Monk's Belt (3,250 gp, 130 xp) Robe of Morphing Miniature* (83790 gp) Bag of Tricks: Grey (225 gp, 9 xp) Cloak of Resistance +5 (6,250 gp, 250 xp) Ioun Stone of Lucky Saves*(25,000 gp, 1,000 xp) Ioun Stone of the Holy*(25,000 gp, 1000 xp) Ioun Stone of Righteous Aura (40,000 gp, 1,600 xp) One Use Items: Scroll of Celestial Blood (675 gp, 27 xp) Scroll of Energy Immunity: Fire (675 gp, 27 xp) Scroll of Energy Immunity: Acid (675 gp, 27 xp) Scroll of Draconic Polymorph, CL 15 (703.13 gp, 29 xp) Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity, CL 19 (4275 gp) Power Stone of Graft Weapon (525 gp) Power Stone of Psychofeedback ML 20 (2,500 gp) Power Stone of Assimilate (4,500 gp) Power Stone of Defensive Precognition ML 19 (475 gp) Crafted Contingent Spell: Heal (2,700 gp, 108 xp) [Trigger: when reduced to 40 or fewer hit points) Boccob’s Blessed Book (3,125 gp, 125 xp) Total Spent: 671,178.13 Total Remaining: 88,821.87 Robe of the Morphic Miniature When not worn, this robe looks large enough to be worn only by a doll. When a Chameleon tries to wear it, though, it resizes itself to fit perfectly. Once per day each, a Chameleon can activate the ring to cast a Shapechange and an Extended Minute Form as a 19th level caster. Prerequisites: CL 19, Shapechange, Minute Form, Forge Ring, Extend SpellCost: 83790 gp ((19*9*400+19*9*400*.75)*.7(Chameleon))) Psychic Circlet of Protection 25,650 This fine silver chain is worn around a wearer’s head, and is studded with several crystals. When a Psychic Warrior wears this Circlet, he is able to greatly augment his defensive capabilities. Once per day each, he is able to manifest Force Screen, Inertial Armor, and Thicken Skin, each augmented as if his manifester level were 19. Prerequisites: ML 19, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Thicken Skin, Craft Universal Item Cost: 25,650 gp (((19*1*400+19*1*400*.75+19*19*1*400*.5) *1.5)*.7 (Psychic Warriors only)) Ioun Stone of Lucky Saves* This dark green sphere grants its user a +5 luck bonus on all saving throws Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Items, Caster Level 12, Creator must be at least 12th level (25,000 gp, 1,000 xp) Ioun Stone of the Holy*(25,000 gp, 1000 xp) This clear rhomboid grants its user a +5 sacred bonus on all saving throws Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Items, Caster Level 12, Creator must be at least 12th level (25,000 gp, 1,000 xp) Bard's Ring of Ruin Delver's Fortune* When worn by any character other than a Bard, this ancient looking ring cuts and irritates the skin, and provides no benefit. When worn by a Bard, however, the ring bathes the Bard in a pale light (this light has no other affect, and does not provide enough illumination to see by), and the bard is constantly under the effect of Ruin of Delver’s Fortune, alterable once per round as a standard action. Prerequisites: Caster Level 10, Forge Ring, Ruin Delver’s Fortune. 56,000 gp, 2240 xp (4 (level)*10 (caster level)*2000*4(Continuous)*.5(Magical Artisan: Forge Ring + Exceptional Artisan)*.5(created)*.7(Bard only)). Bracers of the Nature’s Righteous Strike* These bracers are always found decorated with a series of targets. When worn by any character but a Druid, they provide no benefit. When a Druid domain wears them, though, the Druid sees his opponents clearer, and is under the constant effect of True Strike. Prerequisites: Caster Level 3, Craft Wondrous Items, True Strike (70,000 gp, 2800 xp) (400,000 (base) *.7 (Druid only) * .5 (Created) * .5 (Exceptional Artisan + Magical Artisan)) Edits: Changed it quite a bit; a dispute about the legitimacy of Divine Grace with Shapechange came up. *le sigh* So... I made it better, in my opinion. Thanks to Disposable Hero for help and advice on some fixes. Removed Paladin levels, Wu-Jen, Mystic Theurge, Contemplative, Cleric, and Fate Spinner levels. Added Combat Medic, Druid, Fochlucan Lyrist levels. Made focus on Reflex instead of Will Saves, enabling Evasion. Edited some typos, and included Ruin Delver's Fortune in this revision (Yeah, 56K item with no acknowledged uses!)
DisposableHero_ 06-08-05, 07:43 AM	Yes. and...namely? 300th (or actually 298th for +99) caster/manifester level items are Epic items, there really isn't any other way to put it, as no caster (well, no caster other than the HIVE) could attain a caster level that high before epic levels. Epic items cost 10 times what non-epic items do, which means even if you used every dirty item creation loophole in the books the cost would still be above 600,000 gp each (a little in excess of the 190,000 gp limit for items for this contest) not to mention that epic items generally aren't permissable for non-epic contests.
Tempest Stormwind 06-08-05, 09:45 AM	Urnsk: I was under the impression that chameleon couldn't be used to meet prerequisites for other PrCs, like Mystic Theurge. I don't have RoD with me, though.
Vecna 06-08-05, 02:58 PM	Urnsk: I was under the impression that chameleon couldn't be used to meet prerequisites for other PrCs, like Mystic Theurge. I don't have RoD with me, though. Sure, but he's probably using Paladin 5 to qualify. I'm just not sure if Chamaleon is a divine spellcasting class you can advance with MT...
Urnsk 06-08-05, 03:01 PM	Ah so! You are correct... but it doesn't say anything about applying a prestige class to Chameleon, only that you can't use the PrC to qualify. I'll move the Cleric PrC's up somewhat to meet the pre-req's. As for applying a PrC, it would obviously only apply to the divine spellcasting, but the Chameleon has a unique caster progression. But again, I see nothing in it's rules that say a Prestige Class can't be applied to Aptitude Focus, only that Apptitude Focus cannot be used to qualify for a PrC.
DisposableHero_ 06-08-05, 03:20 PM	Sure, but he's probably using Paladin 5 to qualify. I'm just not sure if Chamaleon is a divine spellcasting class you can advance with MT... Its not as if this matters, even if he were to apply Mystic Theurge to Cleric and Wu Jen he would still have all the casting he needs to complete the routine, unless I've missed something.
Sithobi1 06-08-05, 03:33 PM	Even applying the x10 epic mod, this can be achieved by using one-time Elixirs. Use Activated, Single Use 1x298x50x10=147500 This short circuits some of the hardest requirements.
DisposableHero_ 06-08-05, 05:05 PM	Even applying the x10 epic mod, this can be achieved by using one-time Elixirs. Use Activated, Single Use 1x298x50x10=147500 This short circuits some of the hardest requirements. But it doesn't change that it is an epic item in an ECL 20 contest. Ask LordofProcrastination on the 10th when he's back, if he lets it go, all power to ya.
Axle_Steelcat 06-08-05, 05:58 PM	Very Impressed - both builds are awesome.
DisposableHero_ 06-08-05, 11:23 PM	:bump: for edits to both builds
Sithobi1 06-08-05, 11:53 PM	Well, as apparently some people think I'm trolling, I'll bow out. Bye!
LordofProcrastination 06-10-05, 02:24 AM	Excellent! Congratulations to Urnsk for completing our second 100^10 champion! Expect "The Morphling" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6389336&postcount=86) to be placed in the Hall of Fame post-haste. This guy is pretty amazing-- meeting all 10 of the requirements without cohorts or aids, no infinite loops, purely 3.5 source material, and downright solid game mechanics. The only drawback is a rather lengthy build-up time (17 rounds), but careful planning solves about everything, right? Alright, how many other top-notch super-robust builds are lurking out there, building closer and closer to the 100^10 standard? Can any of them do it speedier than the low-prep time of "The Shepherd" or more independently than the self-reliance of "Morphling"? Caelic's Ur-Artificer seems to be on the right track. Is SigmaJargon ready to weigh in with Maho-Tsukai-powered super-high save DCs, the first caster-bypassing of challenge #1? PhaedrusXY mentioned a Monk/Sorc/Witch Hunter/SacredExorcist/Arcane Duelist, can anyone with the time and guts follow through? And no-one's used the insane versatility of the Master of Many Forms quite yet... The possibilities are out there, but who can rise to the challenge?
Tempest Stormwind 06-10-05, 03:04 AM	I just gave the Morphling a deeper readthrough and I spotted a few minor problems. 1) Psionic item pricing is wonky at best, however: there is a precedent to increase the cost a heck of a lot when using "charges" or "times per day" -- namely, for every +2 PP spent, increase the power level by 1. When to apply this is confusing even to psionic regulars, though. 2) I'm still unsure about advancing Chameleon through other PrCs since it isn't per se a spellcasting class. I THINK it works, but I'm not certain. That's IT. Other than those two points, I have to give a big "congratulations" to Urnsk as well. (I like the 17 round prep time, being about 100 seconds to boot. Personally, I'd have saved the money on the bag of tricks and bought a chicken. Or, as the latest UberERcharger uses for style, a partridge in a pear tree.)
Norhg 06-10-05, 10:07 AM	Note: The character first Shapechanges into a Gloura, gaining the Gloura special abilities; he then Draconic Polymorph's into a Sand Giant Draconic Polymorph works as Polymorph which functions like alter self. ALTER SELF You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. And I just looked up Gloura, doesn't state wheter it is extraordinary or not, what do ye others say? Would Unearthly grace work inside an antimagic field?
DisposableHero_ 06-10-05, 10:47 AM	Draconic Polymorph works as Polymorph which functions like alter self. And I just looked up Gloura, doesn't state wheter it is extraordinary or not, what do ye others say? Would Unearthly grace work inside an antimagic field? Alternatively, he could use Nymph, which has the same ability and lists it specifically as supernatural
AlienFromBeyond 06-11-05, 07:57 PM	Damn, that's the same method I was considering using. Don't you just love uncapped abilities that stack with themselves? I would assume that involves using the Shambling Mound's electricity into Con ability combined with the Deepwarden Con to AC, and possibly the Zeugalak's electricity into Dex ability? Maybe even the Dwarf Sorcerer sub level for Con to bonus spells per day...
Squirrelloid 06-15-05, 08:33 AM	Here we go. I'm not sure i have the patience at the moment to sketch this as fully as those before me, but this is the brute force method of doing it =) Durgin "The Beast" Donnaucht Ooh! tingles! C/N Venerable Dwarf Bard1/Diviner7/Master Transmogrifist10/DeepWarden2 (yes, i'm dead serious) Gives up Evocation. Base Stats: 2 str, 2 dex, 2 con, 32 (18+6+5+3) int, 11 wis, 34 (18-2+6+5+4+3) cha Items (690625): Cloak of Charisma +6 (36k), Circlet of Int +6 (36k), Book of Int +5 (137.5k), Book of Cha +4 (110k), Ring of UMD +30 (90k), "Tingles" - Shocking dagger +1 (8k), "Beat-stick" - +5 longsword (50k), Staff of the Beast (Shapechange, Nature's Avatar, Nature's Favor, 20th CL) (125625), Staff of the Chosen (Gr Visage of the Deity, Elation, Divine Power, 20th CL) (97.5k), Feats: Endurance, Quicken Spell, Eschew Materials, Natural Spell, Snowflake Wardance, WF(longsword), Extend Spell, Arcane Strike Skills: 11.5 ranks in UMD (cc), enough ranks in other things to qualify for feats and PrCs. I have enough. Relevant optional features: motivate charisma, favored form: some ape Prep: ~301 minutes beforehand - Activate staff for Shapechange into an ape using Master Transmogrifist to snag the Shambling Mounds (ex) electricity immunity ability. Duration 200 minutes, doubled because of Master Transmogrifist = 400 minutes. Activate again the following round for Shapechange into an ape and this time grabbing the strength of a Storm Giant (39). As multiple assumptions of form stack for (ex) abilities as per the sage column, we keep the shambling mound ability. Note that Durgin's type is animal. For the next while - Poke self 4x per round with "Tingles", gaining 10 Con on average per round. There are 10 rounds in a minute. Over 300 minutes, 3000 rounds elapse during which time 30000 points of Con are gained and 5 are lost, for a net gain of 29995 constitution. For the sake of argument, we'll consider that his Con score. Cast (*) or Activate the following: Nature's Avatar, Nature's Favor (Duration 20 min each), Extended Haste* (26 rounds), Elation (20 rounds), Gr Visage of the Deity (20 rounds), Divine Power (20 rounds), in that order over 6 rounds. All of these last long enough to make it through the challenge. UMD: +12 -- 34 base Cha +23 -- cc ranks in UMD +30 -- competence item Total +64, more than enough to activate the staves. Note on the staves that i'm assuming theyre at a minimum CL20. If UMD allows emulation of CL, then i activate the staff powers at a minimum CL of 45, which increases durations substantially. Compliance with challenge: (1) 100 AC: Deepwarden adds my con mod to AC. My con mod for a Con of 29995 (+whatever base con happens to be) is +14992, which is more than 100 AC right there. (2) +100 to hit: +20 - BAB (Divine Power) +20 - cast a Quickened True Strike each round for 15 rounds +20 - 51 str = 39 base + 6 enh (Divine Power) + 4 (GrVotDeity) + 2 (Elation) +10 - Nature's Favor, luck +10 - Nature's Avatar, morale +12 - Snowflake Wardance +5 - Enhancement on "beat-stick" +1 - Arcane Strike (min) +1 - haste +1 - WF(longsword) Total +100 (min) Notes: (1) i only need +100 for one attack each round, which the quickened true strike gives me. As i have natural spell and eschew materials, casting it should not be a problem (though arguably apes can cast anyway). (2) If UMD emulates caster level, the Nature's Favor bonus has no CL cap and is +1/2 CLs, so would be at least +22 with min CL 45, putting me way over the +100 requirement. (3) Yes, all his memorized spells 5th level and higher for the day are quickened true strikes. He has 15 such slots - 6 5th, 5 6th, and 4 7th including slots from specialization and intelligence. (3) 100 damage: I get 5 attacks per round (including haste). They deal +20 str damage and +5 enhancement. 5*25 is 125. Even on rounds when i roll a 1, i deal 100 damage without even counting the dice for the longsword. Expectation is fewer than a single 1 per round on an attack roll, so my average damage is over 100. (4) +100 Selected Skill. Concentration, +~15k from constitution. (5) 100' movement/round: In the last 2 rounds of the challenge, to satisfy the movement requirement i shapeshift into a Ha-Naga (epic SRD, 20HD, 100' fly speed), mostly for coolness factor, and move 100' the required number of times. As i only need to maintain the +100 to attack 14 rounds, this does not interfere with that. (6) +100 to a save: My fort save is +~15k from constitution alone. (7) 100 spell levels castable: As a Wizard of Caster Level 13 with a 32 Intelligence, i can easily cast 100 CLs. I have 164CLs per day (not counting 0th level spells) including those from high intelligence. I cast 88 spell levels during the contest alone (all true strikes, counting the slots they were memorized in). (8) 100 hit points: With 20 HD, the minimum bonus hp from Constitution is ~60k. Exceeding 100 by ~2.5 orders of magnitude. (9) Survive 100 damage/round for 17 rounds: Ok, i could mention res10s from GrVotDeity and DR and whatnot, but really, its not relevant. 100 damage/round for 17 rounds is 1700 damage. This is far less than my hp total. Also note i take no damage from electricity, and gain an average of 2.5 Con per round (and 20hp) from the electric damage. If i calculated everything out, i probably gain hp during the challenge just by sitting in there. (10) Do it all for 17 rounds: This is sufficiently covered above i hope. Durgin is a beast, and he tanks the whole thing no problem. Yes, the Shambling Mound/Deepwarden isnt the most creative solution, but i think the animal type was an interesting route to +100 to hit (the hardest part, really), and the Diviner/Master Transmogrifist an unusual path to fulfill the shambling mound ability. A few of his spells end just after the challenge, but with the exception of Divine Power, these are of minor effect relative to the whole, and so in terms of owning, with a little time to rebuff (recast divine power) every 20 rounds, he can be almost this effective 20 minutes running. Edit: I should note this is the most obvious solution. I've barely tapped the potential of Master Transmogrifist - there are probably multiple ways this type of build could be used to beat the challenge. More edit: formatting, math errors, etc.... Oh, and i just noticed someone else commented on deepwarden/shambling mound. Heh, hadnt gotten past page 3 before... la la la. Even more edit: Oh yeah, and no psionics! =p And yet more edit: Added arcane strike, removed some stupidity on my part. Wow, edit: Bard replacing Marshal
Squirrelloid 06-15-05, 06:51 PM	No problems with my build? No comments? No elegant improvements? Could i at least be added to the hall of fame, eek eek? Otherwise known as :bump:
LordofProcrastination 06-16-05, 03:20 AM	As I see it, there are no technical problems with "The Beast", so Congratulations are in order! Great work, Squirrelloid. I must say, it's good to see a new build meet the 100^10 Challenge. In particular, excellent work in channeling the maximum amount of utility out of the optmization of a single ability score. The shambling-mound strategy has been floating around the boards, but this particular build is proof that it can be used to make a fairly versatile character. For those of you just joining us, "The Beast" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6449124&postcount=102) is the third challenger to meet the 10 exceedingly difficult stipulations of the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge, as outlined in the first post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6364840&postcount=1). In comparison to the other champions, "The Beast" has the self-sufficiency exhibited by Morphling (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6389336&postcount=86) and the all-but-unkillability of The Shepherd (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6377216&postcount=54). On the flip side, this Constitution-centric build lacks save-diversity and has a pretty outrageous preparation time (5 hours or 3,000 rounds). To consider: what can we do to reduce this build's ramp-up buffing time, and who will be next to overcome the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge?
Squirrelloid 06-16-05, 04:45 AM	As I see it, there are no technical problems with "The Beast", so Congratulations are in order! Great work, Squirrelloid. I must say, it's good to see a new build meet the 100^10 Challenge. In particular, excellent work in channeling the maximum amount of utility out of the optmization of a single ability score. The shambling-mound strategy has been floating around the boards, but this particular build is proof that it can be used to make a fairly versatile character. For those of you just joining us, "The Beast" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6449124&postcount=102) is the third challenger to meet the 10 exceedingly difficult stipulations of the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge, as outlined in the first post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6364840&postcount=1). In comparison to the other champions, "The Beast" has the self-sufficiency exhibited by Morphling (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6389336&postcount=86) and the all-but-unkillability of The Shepherd (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6377216&postcount=54). On the flip side, this Constitution-centric build lacks save-diversity and has a pretty outrageous preparation time (5 hours or 3,000 rounds). To consider: what can we do to reduce this build's ramp-up buffing time, and who will be next to overcome the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge? To just meet the +100 from Con without being too specific about his form, lets assume his form has 10 Con, which is reasonable. Thus we need to gain 200 Con. With an average of 10 Con per round, thats 20 rounds of poking, +6 rounds of prep spells. So 26 rounds preparation. +100 from Con gives him 2k bonus hp, which is enough to survive 1700 damage. He also gains 2.5Con/round of the challenge, (~25hp per round), and has DR 10/magic, and elemental res 10 to the 4 basic from GrVotDeity, so at most he takes 30 damage/round, which is a net -5hp/round. Thus, 26 rounds should be sufficient to pass the challenge. I just didnt want to think too hard, and so used a good fraction of the duration of the shapechange for overkill. It also sounds more amusing to talk about numbers in the 10k ballpark.
Urnsk 06-18-05, 08:53 PM	Nice build... I'm glad that you pointed out that UMD wasn't required for the attack bonus-- that avoids an annoying can of worms. The only suggestion I would have is your first level as Rogue, or Bard, or some other class with UMD as a class skill: you can put 2 points into UMD every level (and, as you pointed out, you have more than enough skill points), an will net you a +23 points in UMD; this gets you the same result as the Marshal. Alternatively, a level in Exemplar later on would let you grab up Exemplar for a +10 bonus (guaranteed roll), and let you max out ranks by double cross-classing from that point on, for a slightly better UMD. Note that a Bard at 1st level also helps satisfy my question below. Questions: How did you qualify for Snowflake Wardance? Am I missing an item that gives you Bardic Music Ability? Also: Why take Extend Spell? Use your foot slot for "Boots of Speed" and get Haste for 5 rounds; with the 13 you naturally get from caster level, you can free up another feat.
Squirrelloid 06-21-05, 08:38 PM	Nice build... I'm glad that you pointed out that UMD wasn't required for the attack bonus-- that avoids an annoying can of worms. The only suggestion I would have is your first level as Rogue, or Bard, or some other class with UMD as a class skill: you can put 2 points into UMD every level (and, as you pointed out, you have more than enough skill points), an will net you a +23 points in UMD; this gets you the same result as the Marshal. Alternatively, a level in Exemplar later on would let you grab up Exemplar for a +10 bonus (guaranteed roll), and let you max out ranks by double cross-classing from that point on, for a slightly better UMD. Note that a Bard at 1st level also helps satisfy my question below. Questions: How did you qualify for Snowflake Wardance? Am I missing an item that gives you Bardic Music Ability? Also: Why take Extend Spell? Use your foot slot for "Boots of Speed" and get Haste for 5 rounds; with the 13 you naturally get from caster level, you can free up another feat. Good points. Oops, yeah, i messed up on the bard bit - ok, bard1 instead of marshal 1 is it. But as you point out, that covers it. Um, extend was the easy solution. Its also good generically, even though i dont use it in the contest. You could certainly dump it as you say if you needed the feat.
PhaedrusXY 06-23-05, 02:35 AM	Bringer of Fated Justice Race: Venerable Wild Elf Classes: Monk1/Sorc6/Pal2/Spellsword3/Fatespinner2/SacredExorcist1/ArcaneDuelist3/WitchHunter2 Benefits: Turn Undead, Cha to AC 4 times (Divine Shield, Unearthly Grace, Apparent Defense, and Ascetic Mage), Cha to saves 3 times (Divine Grace, Unearthly Grace, and Kami's Grace, and to Will again via a magic item described later), Sorc Caster Level 12 Cha 18+3age+4tome+6item+5level+4untyped = 40 (+15 bonus, 16 points) Wis 14+3age+4enh+4untyped = 25 (+7 bonus, 6 points) Int 16+3age-2race+2untyped = 19 (+4bonus, 10 points) Dex 8+2race (19+4enh+2untyped =25 in buffed Planetar form) Con 8 (20+4enh*+2size+4untyped =30 in buffed Planetar form) Str 8 (25+6enh+4size+4untyped= 39 in buffed Planetar form) Skill ranks required for prereqs: Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Profession (Gambler) 8, Survival 10cc, Knowledge (Religion) 10, Knowledge (Planes) 7, Perform 5, Tumble 5 Other skill ranks purchased: Use Magic Device 11cc, Jump 23, Concentration (the rest) Level Progression Cha Class Feats purchased Skill points purchased 1 Monk IUS, Stunning Fist, 4 each Know (Arcana&Religion), Tumble, Perform, Otherworldly and Profession; 2cc Survival and UMD 2-5 Sorc 1-4 Track (3rd) 4 Know (Arcana), 4 Profession, 2cc Survival, 2cc UMD, 4 Concentration 6-7 Pal 1-2 Ascetic Mage (6th) 6 Know (Religion), 1cc UMD and Survival 8-9 Sorc 5-6 Arcane Preparation (9th) 2 Know (Arcana), 1cc Survival and UMD, 2 Concentration, 1cc Tumble 10-12 Spellsword 1-3 Arcane Strike (12th), Dodge (b) 1.5cc UMD and Survival, 9 Jump 13-14 Fatespinner1-2 7 Knowledge (the Planes), 0.5cc Survival, 1cc UMD 15 Sacred Ex1 Mobility (15th) 0.5cc UMD, 1cc Survival, 2 Concentration 16-18 Arcane Duel1-3 Divine Shield (18th) 1.5cc UMD, 1cc Survival, 12 Jump, 3 Bluff 19-20 Witch H1-2 0.5cc UMD, 11 Concentration, 2 Jump Items: Tome of Leadership +4 (110,000), Monk's Belt (13,000), Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000), Vest of Resistance +5 (25,000), Scroll of Jump at caster level 3 (75), Potion of Barkskin +5 (1200), Potion of Shield of Faith +5 (900), Scroll of Shapechange (3825), Scroll of Heal (1650), Oil of Magic Vestment +5 (3000), Scroll of Greater Magic Weapon +5 (1500), Scroll of Bear's Endurance (150), Scroll of Cat's Grace (150), Scroll of Owl's Wisdom (150), Scroll of Improved Mage Armor (375), Scroll of Brambles at caster level 10 (750), Scroll of Stoneskin (2150), Scroll of Good Hope (1050), 5 Scrolls of Protection from Elements at caster level 15 (5,626 total), Item granting +30 competence to Jump (90,000) combined with Item granting +2 competence to Use Magic Device (+600), 6 Lesser Metamagic Rods of Quickening (200,000 total), Magic items for +5 Luck and Holy, +4 Profane bonuses to saves (50,000 for +5, 32,000 for +4, 132,000 total), Staff of Holy Power: 2 charges each for Greater Visage of the Deity, Righteous Might, and Divine Power, all at Caster Level 20 (68500+28125+15,000 =111,625), Huge Bluewood Longsword (UE, +800 onto whatever a normal huge longsword is), Scroll of Improved Blink at caster level 20 (2500), 2 contingent Fireballs at 5th caster level triggered by different command words (3000 total), Contingent Divine Favor at caster level 20 (2000, triggered by yet another command word), Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (+4 insight to Will saves, 10,667). Total spent: 759,743 Magic item slots: Monk's Belt, Cloak of Charisma, Vest of Resistance. There are 11 total slots, so that leaves plenty for the 4 skill and saving throw boosting items. Spell level: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Spell slots per day: 6 6 6 6 5 3 Bonus spell slots: 4 3 3 3 3 2 Total: 10 9 9 9 8 5 10 18 27 36 45 40 30 =206 spell levels total (not counting 0 levels) Spells actually cast from spellslots: 16 True Strikes (10 prepared via Arcane Preparation in 1st level spell slots, 6 in 2nd), 2 Scorching Rays (2nd, prepared via Arcane Preparation), 2 Hastes (3rd, prepared via Arcane Preparation), and 1 Greater Heroism (6th) . This is 32 total spell levels, 29 of which are cast during the contest, leaving the rest for use with Arcane Strike. To use 9 spell levels every round for all 17 rounds requires 153 spell levels, so he has plenty. Hit Points: 8+7d8+8d4+4d10+200 =281 (+2 overlapping sources of 20 temporary hit points each) Attack (huge darkwood longsword, 17-20/x2): 20+14str-2size+5weapon+20DextrousAttack+4morale+3 luck+20Insight+18unnamed =102 Damage 3d8-20+10(Brambles)+14Str+5enh+2Morale+9d4, Avg 47 per attack, 5 attacks per round Will Save: 21base+7Wis+45untyped(Cha)+5resistance+5 luck+5holy+4profane+4insight*+4morale =100 AC: 10+8AC+24nat+16monk+15ApparentDefense+13 shield+7dex+15deflection-2size+1dodge = 107 Jump: 23ranks+14Str+30enh+30comp+2synergy+4mor ale =103 Preparation rounds: Shapechange (from scroll) into a Nymph for Unearthly Grace and DR 10/Cold Iron, then Polymorph into a Planetar for its physical stats, natural armor, and movement rate. Cast Protection from Elements five times (once for each element). Use all the potions and scrolls, except for the scroll of Heal. Cast Greater Heroism and Haste, Improved Blink from a scroll, and then cast the three spells from the staff (via UMD) while activating the contingent Divine Favor as a free action (triggered by a spoken word). Use Magic Device: 11ranks+13Cha+4morale+2competence = 30 (even on a 1 he can activate his most difficult item, the scroll of Heal) Taking Damage: Due to the Protection from Elements spells, DR 10/adamantine from Stoneskin, and DR 10/Cold Iron from the Nymph, he only takes 20 points of damage per round from the Holy and Unholy damage. He ignores 50% of this from Improved Blink, and so only takes 10 points of damage per round on average. The temporary hit points absorb this damage for the first four rounds. I'm saying that only the Cold Iron weapon actually takes points off from the Stoneskin, and he'll ignore that part of the time as well, so the Stoneskin spell should last through the entire trial, and so should the Protection from Elements spells. On average, he should only take 130 points of damage during the entire trial. If he gets injured too badly, he can take a round to cast Heal from his scroll. Actions taken during the trial: Round 1-7: Sacrifice 9 spell levels into Arcane Strike, Quicken a True Strike using a metamagic rod, and make a full attack. Round 8: Arcane Strike and full attack, Quicken a Haste using a metamagic rod. Round 9: Make a single attack using Arcane Strike for 9 levels (avg 45), trigger a level 5 Fireball from a contingent spell with a verbal command (avg 17.5), move 100 feet, and cast a Quickened (via rod) Scorching Ray (avg 42). Total damage 104.5. Round 10: Move 100 feet, make a single attack using Arcane Strike for 9 levels (avg 45), trigger a level 5 Fireball from a contingent spell with a verbal command (avg 17.5), and cast a Quickened (via rod) Scorching Ray (avg 42). Total damage 104.5. Round 11-17: Make full attacks with Arcane Strike and True Strike (as in 1-7). During rounds 8, 9, and 10, his attack bonus is less than +100, but this is acceptable per rule 2c. Questionable (in my mind) things I used: Witch Hunter (originally in Oriental Adventures), and sacrificing more than 1 spell per round to use with Arcane Strike. Of course, most DMs wouldn't allow a bunch of items granting weird bonuses to saving throws, either, but I found that part of the challenge to be extremely difficult without that kind of cheese
lgw 06-23-05, 06:00 AM	where is unearthly grace (cha to ac) from ? i'm really too dumb to see that one - thanks :-)
PhaedrusXY 06-23-05, 06:03 AM	where is unearthly grace (cha to ac) from ? i'm really too dumb to see that one - thanks :-)It's a supernatural ability of the Nymph, gained through Shapechange.
LordofProcrastination 06-23-05, 01:17 PM	Bravo, PhaedrusXY on The Bringer of Fated Justice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6516671&postcount=108). Clearly a build with potential and a knack for hitting the target values (+100) smack on the nose. Also, good use of lesser-known non-psionic sources such as good ol' Ruin Delver's Fortune and the lurking terror of Wizards.com, Arcane Duelist. Note also that The Bringer holds the record for lowest personal spellcasting/manifester level, a gish-ish feel not seen often amongst these ultrapowered builds. However, there is one particular qualm which prevents me from inducting The Bringer into the Hall of Fame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6364840&postcount=1)-- its skill check modifier (PhaedrusXY selected Bluff) does not' meet the specifications of Challenge 4. Ahem. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check ---- 4a. This bonus must be applicable to any and every subtype of your selected skill check. Specifically, "The Bringer of Fated Justice" isn't quite there yet because it relies on the Glibness spell (via a scroll) to add a +30 bonus to convince people one is being truthful, a subset of Bluff rather than a comprehensive Bluff bonus. This "subset" matter was ruled on specifically to prevent hyper-specific boostings of small portions of skills (concentration checks to maintain spells, feinting-only Bluff checks, etc) by the many spells out there which do such. Right, now that the problem is clear, what can we do to shore up the skill-deficiency of PhaedrusXY's otherwise exemplary build?
PhaedrusXY 06-23-05, 02:21 PM	Aww :censored: ... I guess you made your Sense Motive check (DC 100 no less!). :P I'll look at it later. I've wasted way too much time on this already, lol. Edit: Ok, here is a simple answer. Change the item granting a +30 competence bonus from Bluff to Jump. Change the Bluff ranks to Jump ranks. And change the scroll of Glibness to a scroll of Jump (which grants an enhancement bonus). The total jump check is then then: 23ranks+12Str+30enh+30comp+2synergy+4mor ale =101 Edit2: Made the update to the original.
Caelic 06-23-05, 03:48 PM	Okay. With finals to grade and all, it's been a while since I had the chance to sit down and look at this. Consequently, I'm going to start more or less from scratch. Uurkrau Illumian Artificer 10/Ur-Priest 10 Ongoing magical effects: *Persistent Shapechange into a Zeugalak (LoM, 171) *Persistent Consumptive Field Our theoretical friend will also need a ready source of electrical attacks--a cheap use-activated magic item, or a controlled creature, or some such. This will allow him to boost his Dex to near-infinite levels, thanks to the Zeugalak's Electrical Affinity ability. How he does it: ) 100 AC: Easy enough, with a near-infinite Dex. 2) +100 to hit: Weapon Finesse plus a near-infinite Dex. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round: Specifics to follow, but the basic plan is to use the Fierce ability from A&EG to add Dex to damage. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check: Any Dex based skill. 'Nuff said. 5) 100 ft movement speed: Specifics to follow. Shouldn't be too hard with his buffing potential. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves: +100 to Reflex saves thanks to obscenely high Dex. 7) 100 spell-levels castable: 133 spell levels before bonus from Ur-Priest. Given that the gain to Dex is NOT a bonus, but an actual modification, the character theoretically has nigh-infinite bonus spells from his nigh-infinite Dexterity, thanks to UurKrau. 8) 100 hit points: Persistent Consumptive Field assures that I'll have as many hit points as I want or need. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round: Without doing anything fancy: I simply kill enough small critters that I have over 1700 temporary hit points from Consumptive Field. Thus, I can take that 100 hit points per round for 17 rounds. Add in protections from my rather formidable array of divine spells and infusions, and the actual amount of damage I'll take likely approaches zero. Should I actually start to run low on hit points, I summon a swarm of something, and when the next blast comes in, gain 1d8 hit points from each critter in the swarm as it dies. There. That should do, for a beginning. The character's capable of a lot more, but I think we can satisfy the requirements without too much effort. This is far from the most powerful build yet presented, but I think the real strength of it is the simplicity. One base class, one prestige class, two buffs, and we've achieved the majority of the requirements; a few more buffs will give us the movement speed and the damage. The damage is the most difficult, since we'll either need to slap on several buffs (Greater Magic Fang, Persistent Divine Favor, etc) to get the average damage of each attack up above 20, or find a way to add Fierce to the mix. I suppose that technically, there's nothing saying the tentacles CAN'T be used to wield manufactured weapons, but that feels a little lame.
thorian 06-23-05, 05:31 PM	Continuous Ring of Ruin Delver's Fortune (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041022a) (80,000) The cost of this item is 320,000gp. Here is how it breaks down: 4*10*2000*4 = 320,000 The spell is level 4; a bard must be level 10 to cast the spell; continuous spell effects have a multiplier of 2000; the spell duration is measured in rounds, so the cost is multiplied by 4 (see footnote 2, table 7-33, DMG).
PhaedrusXY 06-23-05, 05:43 PM	The cost of this item is 320,000gp. Here is how it breaks down: 4*10*2000*4 = 320,000 The spell is level 4; a bard must be level 10 to cast the spell; continuous spell effects have a multiplier of 2000; the spell duration is measured in rounds, so the cost is multiplied by 4 (see footnote 2, table 7-33, DMG).Gah! I don't own the DMG 3.5, and forgot about the multipliers they introduced with the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion. Edit: I dumped the ring, added in a couple of items, and added Greater Visage of the Deity to the powers in the staff.
LordofProcrastination 06-24-05, 01:59 PM	Right on. Nice catch, thorian, with the item pricing. Now that skill corrections have been noted and the inventory revised, I believe that The Bringer of Fated Justice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6516671&postcount=108) has a place waiting for it in the Hall of Fame. As a post-acceptance analysis, The Bringer of Fated Justice has a fairly "typical" buff-up time of about 20 rounds (mostly from all those scrolls). The Shepherd, The Saint, and the Sinner (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6377216&postcount=54) still hold the preparation-time record (roughly 10 rounds). Still, the Bringer build has a certain elegance about it. For the next challenger, Caelic's Artifice-Ur certainly has potential and versatility. I think we can all look forward to implementation of all those "details to follow." Personally, I think that an Artificer should be able to match the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge without relying on another uncapped-growth monster form (the first was Squirrelloid's "The Beast" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6449124&postcount=102)), but I haven't worked out precisely how yet. Hmm... Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?
carnivore 06-24-05, 02:34 PM	i also had an Artificer type build.......but havent finished working on it yet something like: Bard 1/ Marshal 1/ Monk 1/ Sorceror 1/ Paladin of freedom 2/ Artificer 8/ Divine Crusader(or UR priest, or Nentyar Hunter) 2/ Mystic Wanderer 1/ Shiba Protector 1 basically getting: Cha to Saves Cha to ACx2(or 3) Cha to Attack Cha to Damage Wis to Attack Wis to Damage Dex to Attack Dex to AC Dex to Damage this build could even have an Artificer 18 Cohort, if needed(or Wiz 5/ Incantatrix 5/Artificer 10) using a few items and spells: sword of graceful strikes(A&EG) gives Dex to damage the spell: Sadism(BoVD) ....gives an uncapped Luck bonus to damage,skills,saves based on damage you inflict shapechanged into Zodar form(immune to all Damage except Bludegeoning) but first shapechanged into a few other forms.......like some of the other builds...to get unearthly grace(Nymph or Gloura forms),etc..... but i have not had enough time to finish it........i now work an evening shift an have a very small window of opportunity to get on the internet. i would really appreciate it if someone could help me out and finish this idea...just PM me...im very open to adjustment :D
Caelic 06-24-05, 03:23 PM	For the next challenger, Caelic's Artifice-Ur certainly has potential and versatility. I think we can all look forward to implementation of all those "details to follow." Personally, I think that an Artificer should be able to match the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge without relying on another uncapped-growth monster form (the first was Squirrelloid's "The Beast" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6449124&postcount=102)), but I haven't worked out precisely how yet. Hmm... Oh, it certainly can--the version above was a five-minute quickie, and I wouldn't have done it except that nobody seemed to have noticed that particular monster yet. Doing it without an unlimited stat is more complex, but definitely doable. At the moment, it involves a kobold artificer who spends most of his time in the form of an extremely small Great Wyrm Red Dragon...
Previn 07-08-05, 08:11 PM	Druid 3/Sorcerer 4/Archdruid 8/Witch Hunter 1/Arcane Duelist 2 Feats: Fast Wildshape, Natural Spell Spells: Awaken, Whirling Blade Items: Metamagic Rod of Maximize and one of Empower Stats: Str 10 Dex 11 Con 17 +1 level Int 10 Wis 14 +1 level Cha 14 +1 level 18th level, so 37,000 xp left over. So that's 148 awakenings. Each Awakening will give 2 magical beast HD, 4.25 charisma and Intelligance should average 25. So that's 296 magical beast HD, and 629 charisma and an ending Int of 25. 1) AC: 10 base + 309 from Arcane Duelist. 2) All sorcerer save DCs are +309. BAB is over 300 with class and magical beast HD. 3) Once again, using Whirling Blade, base damage, in melee or at range it 309+weapon damage. 4) All charisma based skills have a +309 bonus to checks. 5) Phantom Steed for 120' per round for 12 hours. 6) +309 bonus to all saves due to charisma and Witch Hunter. 7) Sorcerer has over 100 bonus spells of each spell level. 8) 2812 hp due to the magical beast HD alone (with the con mod) 9) Well, I could just soak up 100 points of damage a round for 28 rounds before having to do something, assuming no spells were used to lessen or negate the damage. 10) All of the stats except speed are permanent and cannot be dispelled. Other things of note: 592+ skill points due to magical beast HD. 74 additional feats for the magical beast HD. Any LA +0 race can be used. +74 bonus to stats divided as you see fit due to magical beast HD. Basically no equipment used. The big selling point: This guy can both cast an antimagic field, and not lose a single bonus from fighting in it.
LordofProcrastination 07-08-05, 09:41 PM	Alright, Previn, I must admit to being very much not an expert on the detailed mechanics of using multiple Awaken spells on oneself. Please, any Druid/Shapeshifting experts feel free to comment on the rules-minutia. As far as I've extrapolated, the combination is thus: 1) Use Wildshape/Polymorph to assume the form of an animal. 2) Use the metamagic rods to maximize and empower an awaken spell (cast 1/day due to 24 hour casting time) on oneself, netting said Charisma and HD bonuses. 3) Because your Charisma bonus is keeping pace with your HD development, the Will save to succeed is only a question for the very first time, and not a problem in the big picture. 4) Rinse and repeat as far as your XP will let you. Boy, I'm glad I outlawed Thought Bottle, or this would've been ugly! ;) All in all, it looks solid, so let's see if it stands up to board scrutiny/comments for a little while, and he's headed for the Hall of Fame!
Tempest Stormwind 07-08-05, 10:31 PM	First, you need some way of remaining in animal form all day. (type Animal) Second, you need the Natural Spell feat. Third, you must cast Awaken targeting yourself. (type Magical Beast) Release Wild Shape to return to your normal form (type whatever) Repeat. I'd say it doesn't work, simply because the same spell never stacks with itself, but overlaps.
Caelic 07-09-05, 12:27 AM	The Awaken/Wildshape debate has been around pretty much since 3.5 was released, and has yet to be clearly resolved one way or the other. The crux of the issue is simply this: are the hit die and Charisma gains from Awaken bonuses, or not? If they are, then they're unnamed bonuses, and unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack--ergo, this doesn't work. If they're not bonuses, then there's nothing to prevent them from stacking--as hit dice and Charisma don't change when you Wild Shape. Until we have a clearer definition of what, precisely, constitutes a "bonus," I don't think this can be resolved one way or the other.
Urnsk 07-09-05, 12:46 AM	For what it's worth... I tend to come down on the "It's a bonus," for the following, simple reasons: 1) It improves a stat. 2) Considering the blatant intent that this not be cast on a creature with an Int higher than 2, if there is any ambiguity at all, the intent should be looked at. And I'm pretty sure Monte Cook, after laughing at someone trying it in his game, would bludgeon them about the head and shoulders with the PHB until they had an Int of 2. Then, of course, he would let them cast on on themselves, and ask if they wanted to cast it again, repeating until they learned. Yeah yeah yeah... "intent doesn't matter"... but when there is a deadlock on interpreation, it clarifies which way to go on it. *shrug* My $0.02.
SigmaJargon 07-09-05, 12:48 AM	According to the v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06232005.zip)Can a druid cast awaken on an already awakened tree? Yes, although the effect of a second awaken spell doesn’t stack. The tree would use the better result of the Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores rolled by the two awaken spells. Note that the caster can’t know the result of these rolls until after the Will save required by the effect has been determined (which means that the spell might unintentionally reduce the tree’s mental faculties).I think its pretty clear that the effects of two (or more) awakens wouldn't stack. Makes good sense in terms of balance too.
Caelic 07-09-05, 12:54 AM	Yep, that pretty much settles that. Thanks, Sigma--I missed that one.
Previn 07-09-05, 01:03 AM	The Awaken/Wildshape debate has been around pretty much since 3.5 was released, and has yet to be clearly resolved one way or the other. The crux of the issue is simply this: are the hit die and Charisma gains from Awaken bonuses, or not? If they are, then they're unnamed bonuses, and unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack--ergo, this doesn't work. If they're not bonuses, then there's nothing to prevent them from stacking--as hit dice and Charisma don't change when you Wild Shape. Until we have a clearer definition of what, precisely, constitutes a "bonus," I don't think this can be resolved one way or the other. It has been around since before 3.5, it's just easier now. Customer service has given it the go ahead, under both 3.0 and 3.5. Several WizOs have also noted it being an infinte loop under the rules. As for them being bonuses or not, they are not bonuses, they are template changes. Awaken is adding the Awakened template to a creature. If you check the back of the MM, you'll even find that it follows the rules for an aquired template and augmented subtype. That ability modifers from a template can be applied multiple times assuming the template can be applied multiple times. According to the v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06232005.zip)I think its pretty clear that the effects of two (or more) awakens wouldn't stack. Makes good sense in terms of balance too. No, awakening a plant functions differently from awakening an animal. The mental stats granted by awaken for a plant are set, not addative (it gains the plant type and its ... scores are each 3d6). Thus they don't stack in much the same way that multiple polymorphs don't stack attributes. When awakening an animal you add to the existing score, thus the key difference. The intelligence for an animal follows that question, but not the HD or Charisma increase. I would also point out that the answer is technically flawed. A tree can only be awakened once. If you look at the question above it, it notes that "plant creatures by definition are not trees." An awakened tree gains the plant type, thus making it by definition, a plant creature.
Caelic 07-09-05, 01:10 AM	The FAQ trumps CustServ and WizOs, Previn, and it's pretty clear in saying that two Awakens don't stack. I was on the fence, but that's a pretty conclusive resolution, and as official as we're likely to get.
Urnsk 07-09-05, 01:17 AM	A bonus from the same template stacks? Bugh? It doesn't matter that you lost the prereq's for the template in the first place; gaining the same template multiple times is still providing a bonus: from the Awakened Animal template. But the FAQ provides enough trump for the matter, IMO.
AlienFromBeyond 07-09-05, 01:36 AM	No, awakening a plant functions differently from awakening an animal. The mental stats granted by awaken for a plant are set, not addative (it gains the plant type and its ... scores are each 3d6). Thus they don't stack in much the same way that multiple polymorphs don't stack attributes. When awakening an animal you add to the existing score, thus the key difference. The intelligence for an animal follows that question, but not the HD or Charisma increase. I would also point out that the answer is technically flawed. A tree can only be awakened once. If you look at the question above it, it notes that "plant creatures by definition are not trees." An awakened tree gains the plant type, thus making it by definition, a plant creature. I'm with Previn here, for the exact reasons he listed.
catharz 07-09-05, 01:51 AM	If it is a "bonus", then those two HD are pretty cool. They don't count towards ECL.
Previn 07-09-05, 01:55 AM	Caelic, I'd ask you to go back and read my edited post. Customer service (i.e. the FAQ) is answering a different question, and technically answering it wrong by their own immediately preceding ruling. (I'll point out that when I say customer service, I refer to both sageadvice and custser.) I would post links to the original quotes, but doubt I can find them on the boards without a search tool. I'm not guessing at this, I've had detailed discussions with the powers that be on this exact question. In fact I've previously posted it on this board and the old one. Urnsk, there are no requirements to the template, just to the spell. As well, if you'll check the Evolved Undead in Libris Mortis, you'll find a template that can be applied more than once. The sage, and customer service (since I must specify both) have both confirmed that you continue to gain the ability bonuses when adding the template multiple times. I'll reiterate, the question in the FAQ is not the same question that we are asking. It is a similar question with a very imporant difference.
LordofProcrastination 07-09-05, 02:59 AM	Harum. First, I'm getting the sense that it is generally agreed that the FAQ, by referring only to the plant/tree implications of Awaken, makes no clear ruling on the animal-specific effects of the spell. We can agree to skip further reference to the FAQ then, yes? Second, I'm going to appeal to the "rule of law and logic" here. Given the well-documented fractious nature of both WizO and Customer Service "rulings on request," let us refrain from relying on their "authority interpretations." Using the Player's Handbook and its errata alone, I believe that we can actually resolve this issue if we stay focused. I have no doubt that the powers which be have clear interpretations or intentions in their minds, but let us here in the forums stick with tools that are more transparent-- literal readings and evidence-supported logic. These premises laid down, my first challenging question is this: from where are we deriving the idea that casting awaken grants a template? From the evidence below, I'm not convinced that awaken'd animals are given a template at all. Reasons: 1) The spell itself makes no mention of the word, "template," or any other indication that we should treat the benefits of this spell as anything other than the default understanding of spell-enhancements (i.e. "bonuses") 2) In the animal portion of the spell, it mentions type-changing, specifically making the target a "magical beast (augmented animal)." Other spells involve type-changing without any hint of a template becoming involved, so the type change alone is not proof of template status. In any case, Previn, would you agree that if, by whatever route of logic or rulings, it becomes the consensus that Awaken does not grant a template, then its enhancements would not self-stack, by virtue of the general "identical spells don't stack" principle, as established on page 172 of the PHB? On the other hand, Previn and crew, if by whatever route of logic or rulings, it turns out that awaken does grant a template, there is the possibility that the combo still won't work because multiple applications of a single template are not permitted. The justification for this is simple: in the Evolved Undead description (Libris Mortis pg 99), it specifically says that it (the Evolved Undead template) is an exception to the usual "no multiple-appliction" rule for templates. This implies that one wouldn't be able to apply any template more than once without express exemption from the rule. Unless these template issues are resolved, it seems that either way the build is shot. Which is too bad, since more 100^10 champions = more all-around-proven-awesome builds for everyone. :(
Vecna 07-09-05, 07:44 AM	In any case, Previn, would you agree that if, by whatever route of logic or rulings, it becomes the consensus that Awaken does not grant a template, then its enhancements would not self-stack, by virtue of the general "identical spells don't stack" principle, as established on page 172 of the PHB? Yes, but due to the fact that Awaken duration is instantaneous, there isn't an ongoing spell on the already awakened animal. You don't have an Awaken spell in effect that disallow another Awaken spell from stacking: you have a creature that somehow gained 2 HD and a Cha bonus. It would have been different if Awaken duration would have been Permanent (no stacking allowed). Any the effect on plants and animals are different: setting abilities scores for the formers (obviously multiple Awaken cannot stack), giving an ability increase for the latters. However, the Druid must find a way to stay in animal form for 24 hours with just one wildshape use, because I don't think he can interrupt the casting of Awaken with multiple wildshape uses.
Previn 07-09-05, 09:59 AM	1) The spell itself makes no mention of the word, "template," or any other indication that we should treat the benefits of this spell as anything other than the default understanding of spell-enhancements (i.e. "bonuses") I'll agree that it doesn't use the word template. That is however, what the spell is doing, both in flavor and mechanics ("A template provides a set of instructions for altering an exisiting creature, called the base creature."). I'll even go so far as to say it doesn't technically apply a template to speed the discussion up, since applying a template or not is irrelivent. There is a good reason not to treat the spell as bonuses, because they are never listed as a bonus. Refering again to polymorph, your stats are set, you get no bonus or penality from it. Don't be dragged into the 'everything is a bonus' mentality, because it's not true. 2) In the animal portion of the spell, it mentions type-changing, specifically making the target a "magical beast (augmented animal)." Other spells involve type-changing without any hint of a template becoming involved, so the type change alone is not proof of template status. Unfortunatly, Awaken does type chainging and other modifications of the target in the same manner as applying a template and I am unaware of any other spell that is similar to it in actual function. Can you point out another spell that is functionally similar to Awaken to make a compairson with? In any case, Previn, would you agree that if, by whatever route of logic or rulings, it becomes the consensus that Awaken does not grant a template, then its enhancements would not self-stack, by virtue of the general "identical spells don't stack" principle, as established on page 172 of the PHB? No I would not. Precisely because of page 172, second column, first paragraph. (Noting that I've had this argument before as well). Awaken is a spell with an instantanious durration. As it is stated on pg. 172: "Two or more spells with instantanious durations work cumulatively when they effect the same target." This alone can counter any arguments about stacking even if you call them bonuses. On the other hand, Previn and crew, if by whatever route of logic or rulings, it turns out that awaken does grant a template, there is the possibility that the combo still won't work because multiple applications of a single template are not permitted. The justification for this is simple: in the Evolved Undead description (Libris Mortis pg 99), it specifically says that it (the Evolved Undead template) is an exception to the usual "no multiple-appliction" rule for templates. This implies that one wouldn't be able to apply any template more than once without express exemption from the rule. Can you please point out to me where it says a template may only be applied once? I can find this nowhere in any book. I would point out that the Evolved Undead is listed as an exception, not the exception. It also never makes mention of a rule that only one template can be applied, just that "most" templates can only be "aquired" once. I submit instead that most templates change your type making you ineligible from have the same template reapplied (which I would note Awakening tries to do) and that there is no rule governing how many times a single template may be applied short of DM ruling.
Previn 07-09-05, 10:09 AM	However, the Druid must find a way to stay in animal form for 24 hours with just one wildshape use, because I don't think he can interrupt the casting of Awaken with multiple wildshape uses. Correct. Casting Awaken for 24 hours requires a standard action each round for those 24 hours. Thus giving a move action to wildshape, which is possible due to the Fast Wildshape feat. As an aside, it will take 3 wildshapes to surpase the 24 hours casting for this build. You have also pointed out an error in my original post, it also requires the Natrual Spell feat, which I neglected to mention originally.
LordofProcrastination 07-09-05, 03:58 PM	Well, I'm convinced. And for one reason alone: the little quote on PHB page 172 that has been pointed out by both Previn and Vecna: "Two or more spells with instantanious durations work cumulatively when they effect the same target." Awaken has instantaneous duration, therefore it works cumulatively with itself. I am not convinced that Awaken creates a template, but that point is essentially moot now. If one wanted to be nit-picky, we could say that arguing that awaken involves a template actually makes its multiple use shakier due to template-stacking uncertainties. For clarity's sake, here's my follow through on the template-stacking issue. The Evolved Undead description establishes/clarifies an underlying assumption/rule that templates are generally only allowed to be taken once. Even if it is the only mention of this principle in the rulebooks, it is now (as a newish rulebook), effectively law. Even with "most" being the operative adjective, it's most likely enough to require explicit exemption. Good news is, these semantics don't matter for this build ;) Oh, for the type-changing issue, the point was merely to say that type changing does not equal template adding. For examples of form-and-capability-altering spells consider that Polymorph and friends involve type-changing, Fiendform (complete arcane) involves type-changing, and abberate from the good ol' BoVD (for the 3.0 crowd) involves type-changing. None of these involve templates. Old news, but examples were requested. Rebuttals anyone?
Caelic 07-10-05, 11:51 AM	It seems to me that we're back to the issue of whether the modifiers granted by Awaken are bonuses or not. Previn, I apologize for my skepticism, but I make it a matter of policy not to accept allusions to rulings as authoritative until I see them in a source at least as official as the FAQ. Let's recap. 1. Awaken does not apply a template. It functions in a manner similar to a template, but no template is presented, and nowhere is it stated or implied that the modifications constitute a template. As has been pointed out, everything that Awaken does can be done by other spells, as well, none of which apply a template. The mere fact that Awaken gathers all of those functions into one spell is not sufficient to cause assumption of the existence of a template. Therefore, whether or not the same template can be applied multiple times is irrelevant. 2. Unlike Polymorph, which sets stats to a fixed total, Awaken adds to existing stats. In all respects, it functions in precisely the same manner as a "bonus" to those stats. 3. The benefits from Polymorph are never referred to as a "bonus," true. However, they serve the same function as a bonus, and we have no clear definition of when an addition to a stat is and is not a bonus. It can't be disqualified because it's a permanent modification from an instantaneous spell; if so, stat modifications from Wish would not be a bonus. It can't be disqualified because it isn't named as a bonus; there are clear rules for unnamed bonuses. Mind you, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, here--personally, I think the case for "It works" is stronger than the case for "It doesn't work." I also think this is one of the best illustrations of why their little "Let's make Polymorph inherit type!" brainstorm was one of the worst design decisions ever made.
Scion of Coldshard 07-10-05, 12:58 PM	I have a build which is rules iffy and I dont have enough sources to figure out if it is possible to make it reach the goal of this thread. Would it be better to post it here and ask for help making it so or post it to a thread of its own and ask for help there? I dont know how much clutter you are willing to stand in here ;) Especially as it may not be possible to make it work even with a bunch of sources.
LordofProcrastination 07-10-05, 01:40 PM	Scion of Coldshard: Sure, if you feel like you have a good start on a build, go ahead and post it for advice and criticism. Team build-refining is a proven way to greatness. Caelic: Just a reminder: Wish specifies that it adds inherent bonuses.
Scion of Coldshard 07-10-05, 02:43 PM	Scion of Coldshard: Sure, if you feel like you have a good start on a build, go ahead and post it for advice and criticism. Team build-refining is a proven way to greatness. Trying again, this time it is much closer, although having to use so many different oddities makes my skin crawl a little ;) 'The big guy is with me' Human Psychic warior 20 Str 8 Dex 8 +6 enhancement (item) = 14 (+2) Con 18 +6 enhanement (item) +4 inherant (tome)= 28 [+9] Int 8 Wis 18 +5(level) +6 enhancement (item) +5 inherant (tome) = 34 [+12] Cha 8 20d8+180 (avg 273.5 hp) BAB +15 Saves: F: +21=+12 (base) +9 (stat), R: +8= +6 (base) +2 (stat), W: +18= +6 (base) +12 (stat) Skills: 46 skill points: +20 Autohypnosis (wis, 8 ranks), +22 Climb (str, 23 ranks) +17 Concentration (con, 8 ranks), +6 Knowledge (psionics) (int, 7 ranks) PP: 247 = 127 (base) + 120 (stat) Manifestor level: 20 Powers: 1st: Bite of the wolf, inertial armor, force screen, elfsight, empty mind, defensive precognition, offensive precognition, offensive prescience 2nd: Animal Affinity, psionic lions charge, 3rd: 4th: Energy Adaption, Steadfast perception 5th: Psionic freedom of movement, psychofeedback 6th: Dispelling buffer, Form of doom, Personal mind blank Items: Skin of the troll (61.2k), orange ioun stone (30k), headband of wisdom +6 (36k), girdle of health +6 (36k), torc of power preservation (36k), item to cast extended haste (1/day, caster level 10, 14.4k), strand of prayer beads (25.8k, karma, healing, smiting), item with consumptive field (1/day, caster level 7, 28.8k), gloves of dex +6 (36k), cognizance crystal 11pp (36k) 8 bonus psychic warrior feats 8 any feats psychic warrior feats 1: psicrystal affinity 2-7: improved psicrystalx6 8: Overchannel Normal feats: 1-7: improved psicrystalx7 8: ? Psicrystal HD: 20 HP: 136.75 avg Speed: 30ft, climb 20ft, fly 50ft (+10' insight to each) AC: 32 = 10 (base) +4 (size) +2 (dex) +16 (natural) BAB/Grapple: +15/-2 Attack: - Full Attack: - Space/Reach: 1ft/0ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech, flight, power resistance, sight link, channel power), psicrystal power (2 powers of 8th level or less) Saves: F: +21=+12 (base) +9 (stat), R: +8= +6 (base) +2 (stat), W: +18= +6 (base) +12 (stat) Abilities: Str: 1, Dex 24, Con -, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 10 Feats: Alertness, wild talent, speed of thought, weapon finesse, reckless offence (-4 ac, +2 attack), reckless charge (double charge bonuses and penalties) (1 feat to go) Skills: +8 Autohypnosis (wis, 8 ranks), +68 Climb (dex, 23 ranks), +8 Concentration (con, 8 ranks), +13 Knowledge (psionics) (int, 7 ranks), +4 Spot (wis, 4 ranks), +4 Listen (wis, 4 ranks), +11 Move Silently (dex, 4 ranks), and +10 Search (int, 4 ranks) (dex mod instead of str mod on climb checks, +8 racial bonus on climb checks and may always take 10) Items: Skin of the hero (77.5) [+3 resistance bonus to saves, +3 enhancement bonus to attack, +3 deflection bonus to ac], 2xrainbow ioun stone (5pp, regens each day, 16k each), ioun stone +30 to climb (180k), item with greater visage of the diety (1/day, caster level 20, double speed flight, +1 natural armor, low light vision, resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity, immunity to disease, +4 racial vs poison, DR 10/magic, SR 25, ability boosts: str +4, dex +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4, 20 rounds, 64.8k), manual of quickness +4 (110k) Before combat a few powers go up: Activate bead of karma, consumptive field (kill 20 bunnies, +20 str, +10d8 temp hp, +10 manifestor level), psychofeedback (manifestor level 38, burn 38 stat points and pump it all into dex, 8pp, 38 rounds) Bite of the wolf (manifestor level 38, psychic warrior level 20, on psychic warrior this is d8+4d8, for psicrystal it is d3+4d8, 1pp, 38 minutes), Inertial armor (manifestor level 38, 38 pp, +23 armor bonus to ac, 38 hours), Force screen (manifestor level 36, 36 pp, +13 shield bonus, 38 minutes), Elfsight (manifestor level 38, 1pp, 38 hours), Defensive Precognition (manifestor level 38, 36pp, +13 insight bonus to AC and all saves, 38 minutes), Offensive precognition (manifestor level 38, 36pp, +13 insight bonus to attack, 38 minutes), Offensive prescience (manifestor level 38, 36pp, +14 insight bonus to damage rolls, 38 minutes), animal affinity (manifestor level 38, str, dex, int, wis, cha, individually manifested, 2pp each, 10pp total, 38 minutes each), energy adaption (manifestor level 38, 6pp, energy resistance all 30, 380 minutes), steadfast perception (manifestor level 38, 6pp, immunity to figments and glamors, +6 enhancement to spot and search, extra save vs false sensory input, 380 minutes), dispelling buffer (manifestor level 38, 10pp, +5 bonus vs dispels, 38 hours), Personal mind blank (manifesor level 38, 10pp, as mind blank, 24 hours), Form of doom (manifestor level 38, 10pp, frightful presence, +5 natural armor, DR 5/-, +4 str, +10ft land speed, +10 climb and jump checks, 4 tentacles, 2d8+1/2 str bonus, 38 rounds), psionic freedom of movement (manifestor level 38, 6pp, freedom of movement, 380 minutes), compression (manifestor level 38, 8pp, 2 size categories smaller, +4 size bonus to dex, -4 size penalty to str, +2 size bonus to attack, +2 size bonus to ac, 38 minutes), haste (caster level 20, one use per day, +1 attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves, +1 dodge bonus to ac, +30ft enhancement to all movement speeds, 20 rounds), activate greater visage of the diety (1/day, caster level 20, double speed flight, +1 natural armor, low light vision, resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity, immunity to disease, +4 racial vs poison, DR 10/magic, SR 25, ability boosts: str +4, dex +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4, 20 rounds) 258pp used +20 str +38 dex (unnamed) +23 armor to ac +13 shield to ac +13 insight to ac +13 insight to saves +13 insight to attack +14 insight to damage +4 enhancement to str, dex, int, wis, cha energy resistance all 30 immunity to figments and glamors +6 enhancement to spot and search +5 vs dispel checks mind blank frightful presence +5 natural armor Dr 5/- +4 str +10ft land speed +10 climb and jump checks 4 tentacle attacks (2d8+1/2 str bonus) Freedom of movement +4 size bonus to dex -4 size penalty to str +2 size bonus to attack +2 size bonus to ac +1 attack bonus +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves +1 dodge bonus to ac +30' enhancement to all movement types lowlight vision +2 bonus on search and spot able to detect secret or concealed doors as an elf double speed flight DR 10/magic SR 25 str +4 (unnamed) dex +2 (unnamed) Con +2 (unnamed) Int +2 (unnamed) Wis +4 (unnamed) Cha +4 (unnamed) one size category smaller than fine, extrapolating, gives: +16 ac, +16 attack bonus, +20 hide After buffing Psicrystal HD: 20 HP: 136.75 avg Speed: 70ft, climb 50ft, fly 80ft (poor), fly 90 (average) (+10' insight to each) AC: 130 = 10 (base) +23 (armor) +13 (shield) +13 (insight) +16 (size modifier from being one size less than fine) +31 (dex) +1 (dodge) +21 (natural) +2 (size bonus from compression) BAB/Grapple: +15/?? Attack: +77 = +15 (bab) +16 (size modifier) +13 (insight) +2 (size bonus) +31 (dex), 2d8 damage +4 (str) +14 (insight) tentacle or d1+4d8 +9 (str) +14 (insight) bite Full Attack: 5 tentacles +77 2d8 +4 (str) +10 (insight), bite +72 d1+4d8 +9 (str) +10 (insight) Space/Reach: 0ft/0ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech, flight, power resistance, sight link, channel power), psicrystal power (2 powers of 8th level or less), energy resistance 30 (fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic), immunity to figments and glamors, +5 vs dispel checks, mind blank, frightful presence (dc 20 will save), DR 5/-, freedom of movement, lowlight vision, able to detect secret and concealed doors as an elf Saves: F: +37=+12 (base) +9 (stat) +13 (insight) +3 (enhancement), R: +54= +6 (base) +31 (stat) +13 (insight) +1 (dodge) +3 (enhancement), W: +34= +6 (base) +12 (stat) +13 (insight) +3 (enhancement) Abilities: Str: 29 = 1 +4 (enhancement) +4 (unnamed) -4 (size) +20 (unnamed) +4 (unnamed), 72 = Dex 20 +4 (enhancement) +4 (size) +38 (unnamed) +2 (unnamed) +4 (inherant), Con -, Int 29 = 23 +4 (enchancement) +2 (unnamed), Wis 18 = 10 +4 (enhancement) +4 (unnamed), Cha 18 = 10 +4 (enhancement) +4 (unnamed) Feats: Alertness, wild talent, speed of thought, weapon finesse, reckless offence (-4 ac, +2 attack), reckless charge (double charge bonuses and penalties) (1 feat to go) Skills: +10 Autohypnosis (wis, 8 ranks), +102 Climb (dex, 23 ranks), +8 Concentration (con, 8 ranks), +15 Knowledge (psionics) (int, 7 ranks), +14 Spot (wis, 4 ranks, +6 enhancement, +2 bonus), +6 Listen (wis, 4 ranks), +6 Move Silently (dex, 4 ranks), and +18 Search (int, 4 ranks, +6 enhancement, +2 bonus) (dex mod instead of str mod on climb checks, +8 racial bonus on climb checks and may always take 10) +10 on climb and jump checks 18.6k gp left to spend and some of the above can be moved around. 1) AC 100: AC 130, way over! when charging it drops 2) +100 to hit: +83 on charge, ac drops to 122 (17 to go, ideas?) 3) 100 damage per round: it was 140 before, now it is way higher 4) +100 on a skill: +102 climb (epic climbing!) 5) 100ft movement speed: 100' fly (average)! ;) 6) +100 bonus to fort, ref, or will: F: +37, R: +54, W: +34 (lots of immunities, and I can pick up an item with moment of prescience for an extra +25 or so, any ideas about the last 21?) 7) 10 spell levels cast during battle: The psicrystal can manifest psionic lions charge enough times to cover this. He has enough buffs placed on him to cover 100 spell levels accessible 8) 100 hp: 136.75 on average! woo! 9) Survive 100hp of damage a round (10 fire, cold, sonic, electricity, acid, profane, divine, piercing [silver and magic], bludgeoning [cold iron and magic], slashing [adamantine and magic]): The elementals are gone without trying. The profane and divine are reduced by half with improved evasion, I dont know how they are effected by hardness. The piercing, bludgeoning and slashing are all reduced to zero between hardness and DR. 10) The shortest ability is 20 rounds, which is put up right before the fight. No problem at all. I was thinking about assimilating a bunny as well for an extra +4 to all stats, but it would only slightly reduce the shortfalls (15 points to go on attack, 19 points to go on save). Any ideas about how to get the last little bit? only 2 items to go! Just to recap however. This is a little guy, as large as the smallest grain of sand you can find (high quality glass sand) with giant tentacles, a huge maw of doom, and feathery wings flying around with a full attack that might just scare minor dieties. Oh, and he has a pretty rough scare tactic ;) This guy as currently written is completely impractical, but he nearly makes the requirements. Some of the items and spells make me feel pretty dirty however ;/ Not much money left, but I still have a few feats to use. Any ideas?
Fãlenganor 07-10-05, 02:54 PM	Great character, I suppose it could get better with a little tweaking, but still very nice. Congratulations.
Previn 07-10-05, 06:09 PM	1. Awaken does not apply a template. It functions in a manner similar to a template, but no template is presented, and nowhere is it stated or implied that the modifications constitute a template. As has been pointed out, everything that Awaken does can be done by other spells, as well, none of which apply a template. The mere fact that Awaken gathers all of those functions into one spell is not sufficient to cause assumption of the existence of a template. I've already stated I'd give up this argument. 2. Unlike Polymorph, which sets stats to a fixed total, Awaken adds to existing stats. In all respects, it functions in precisely the same manner as a "bonus" to those stats. Or, Awaken sets you stats to a fixed total whose range is 1-3 greater than your previous stats. Again, it's not listed as a bonus, and there is no reason to assume it is a bonus from the wording of the spell. You're trying to make the jump that +d3 makes it a bonus, which you can't do. 3. The benefits from Polymorph are never referred to as a "bonus," true. However, they serve the same function as a bonus, and we have no clear definition of when an addition to a stat is and is not a bonus. In fact no, polymorph does not serve the same function as a bonus. By setting the stats rather than making them bonuses you allow all other bonuses to be used in the normal manner, and prevent "stacking" of polymorph spells to get the best stats possible. We are given a clear indication of when an addition is a bonus, because it's listed as a bonus. An unnamed bonus is not when they neglect to add the word bonus, but when they just say "bonus" and give no type. You can't apply bonus rules to things that are not bonuses. It can't be disqualified because it's a permanent modification from an instantaneous spell; if so, stat modifications from Wish would not be a bonus. It can't be disqualified because it isn't named as a bonus; there are clear rules for unnamed bonuses. Yes it can be disqualifed because it is an instantaneous spell. There is a specific rules exception in the PHB that covers this. What you're arguing now is selecting only the rules that you want. Wish itself limits how many times it may be stacked, by making the ability increase a bonus, and then further making it inherant. You note that you can stack Wishes up to the limit. Mind you, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, here--personally, I think the case for "It works" is stronger than the case for "It doesn't work." I also think this is one of the best illustrations of why their little "Let's make Polymorph inherit type!" brainstorm was one of the worst design decisions ever made. I understand, but I've already stated that short of being down in print as acceptable, everyone I've contected (sages/custserv) about has said it works, multiple times. I'm sorry I can't provide links, but I really think it's pointless to do so anyways, since people just hand-waive it away as being "unreliable," since it's not in print, much as you are doing. Of course, even the print material is occasioanlly erroneous, as I pointed out with the FAQ questions. In my opinion, awaken as a whole is an unmitaged mess, beyond just the awaken players thing. You'll note that an Awakened Tree, a plant creature, has no Con score. The saving throw should be none or see text, since the caster is doing the save not the subject, and since a succesful save makes the spell work, not negates it.
Debug0x2a 07-12-05, 03:45 AM	Here's an interesting idea. What if you are a thrallheard with his 150+ lvl 1 thralls. Mindseed as many thralls as you can without dropping more then 1 level (6 I believe). Have all of them as dromite psions with the psionic talent feat. Have all of your other higher level thralls as sorcs to reduce person on as many as possible. Fit as many as you can into the 20 ft radius circle you create with metaconcert. Have your cohort do likewise within range of you. Then have each group's entity manifest metaconcert, merging with 9 more thralls and using his abilities as the base for the new metaconcert. Continue the process until you are merged with a bit under 3/4 of your thralls and your cohort with a bit under 1/4. Make one more metaconcert merging you with your cohort and whoever you mindseeded. Your power save DC should be somewhere around +80 from the metaconcerts and with a few items, easily +10 from int and your power point supply should be rather large from the mindseeded thralls, your cohort's metaconcert, and your metaconcert. Manifest a fully augmented mind thrust adding another +10 to the DC bringing it up to around 100. Seeing as you are Average damage for that breaks 100 easily. Now that thats been said, please tell me whats wrong with this build, as something is really bugging me about its legallity, although I cant put my finger on what.
LordofProcrastination 07-21-05, 12:43 AM	Sorry for the long delays in response, chaps. Nano-traffic jam and whatnot. Scion of Coldshard: Your build is certainly a relatively solid one, useful in all-around play, but I'm afraid it will need more than tweaking to fully meet the 100^10 Challenge. Here are my questions and critiques: A) Why the massive feat-focus on Improved PsiCrystal? The additional personality shards are only occasionally pertinent and useful to the goals of the Challenge, and the bonus effective level for Psicrystal Powers is essentially moot preEpic. Unless I'm missing some trick here, you'd probably be better off considering some other feat combinations, possibly to boost attack or AC. Probably AC. B) For the movement challenge, the point is to have "movement speed" of 100ft, not just to travel 100ft in a round. Again, someone with more familiarity with psionics may be able to suggest a speed-booster within your current character theme, but if it ever becomes a sticking point, you could cop out and buy a one-shot item of draconic polymorph and shift into a speedy form. C) Saves. Arggg. You're right, "not even close." I don't want to sound harsh, but the well-balanced nature of most psionics, spells, and items means that it will be incredibly difficult to make up the difference without switching out several Psychic Warrior levels for levels in something(s) that grant(s) save-boosting class feature(s). Since doing so would probably constitute a major build-focus-and-flavor change, I'm going to refrain from conjecturing. Don't feel bad about this, though-- the "100 in a save" challenge is probably the toughest feature of the lot, and the build's immunities do indeed mean that it will be quite formidable in more reasonable game situations. D) For the last little bit of AC, consider comparing notes with the builds above and the "Uber AC" page cited on the first post-- there are a number of great AC-boosting items and combination that should fill in your gaps somehow. Debug0x2a: Hmm, let's see here. The numbers: 4 tiny creatures can fit per square, and you have a 20 ft radius to work with. According to the DMG, a 20ft radius contains 44 "5-ft squares," so you can fit a solid 176 creatures inside the radius, or only 174 if you're not willing to drop your own size to Tiny. It's not really a problem, since a maxed-out Thrallherd has 163 followers and 2 cohorts. For this combo, you'll have 157 nonseeded followers, 6 seeded metaconcert-capable followers, 2 presumably metaconcert-capable cohorts, and 157 nonseeded psionic followers (don't waste energy on nonpsions when items can handle the size-reduction). Soo, assuming that everyone connects up flawlessly and the psionic-ability reading Debug0x2a suggests is correct, we're looking at a +166 bonus to psionic DCs. The catches: A) Survival. One of the stipulations of the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge is that all characters involved have to deal with the 100 damage each round. This isn't impossible to beat with the right resource allocation (lots of protective spells, Shield-Othering the damge to expendable damage-sinks, etc), but it will be kink to handle. B) Rules Legality. The big question is whether multiple applications of Metaconcert should produce stacking bonuses. The argument for stacking is the unique wording of the ability, which specifically says that the +1 DC enhancements are "cumulative." The argument against stacking is that "cumulative" wording is meant to be a contextual use for in-spell bonus stacking, and thus doesn't bypass the usual "alike spells don't stack" rule that is the law of the land. What do you all think? This trick could be quite handy if you mix and match in some other uses for hordes of followers-- merging, damage-dumping, maybe a little AC-Aiding, and class-feature-snagging.
Debug0x2a 07-21-05, 03:28 AM	Thanks for the responce. I posted that as a start by meeting the toughest of the qualifications for the build. Anyhow, I wasn't really considering it a stacking effect, rather I was treating each metaconcert as a seperate entity. I figured that if the build is actually legit (and by legit I mean its just as legal as the hulking hurler) that a few random cohorts could be taken off of the pumping crew (as it only needs to be +100 total) to cast some wards and such. I havent done the math yet, but I'd bet that you could protect the crew well enough that u could maintain ur specs through the fight. Next issue I think would be speed... but I'm sure there's some interesting trick I could pull of with a floating disk or something... If you think that the trick is legal, I'll go back the the drawing boards and see about the rest of the requirements.
Scion of Coldshard 07-21-05, 10:27 AM	Scion of Coldshard: Your build is certainly a relatively solid one, useful in all-around play, but I'm afraid it will need more than tweaking to fully meet the 100^10 Challenge. Here are my questions and critiques: yeah, I dont think it will make it, but there it is in case someone who knows how to play the system better than me has some ideas. A) Why the massive feat-focus on Improved PsiCrystal? The additional personality shards are only occasionally pertinent and useful to the goals of the Challenge, and the bonus effective level for Psicrystal Powers is essentially moot preEpic. Unless I'm missing some trick here, you'd probably be better off considering some other feat combinations, possibly to boost attack or AC. Probably AC. The psychic warrior is not the person being entered into the contest, it is his psicrystal (hence the title, 'the big guy is with me' ;) ). Each of the feats does give something to the psychic warrior, but it also improves the psicrystal in a few important ways. At this point the psicrystal itself is fulfilling all of the stated requirements, or trying to. It has most of them, but a few are just too far shy to make it I think :( B) For the movement challenge, the point is to have "movement speed" of 100ft, not just to travel 100ft in a round. Again, someone with more familiarity with psionics may be able to suggest a speed-booster within your current character theme, but if it ever becomes a sticking point, you could cop out and buy a one-shot item of draconic polymorph and shift into a speedy form. yeah, he could be cheap about it, but i'd rather not unless it is absolutely needed. I suppose if there is a really good construct out there with 15 hd or less that the psicrystal could shift to in order to get all of the leftover requirements then I could use that. I can get him up to 90' in a round for flying by spending a couple of feats for the psicrystal. Note that the psicrystal does have quite a few feats to spend, I just dont think many feats will get pretty massive bonuses. C) Saves. Arggg. You're right, "not even close." I don't want to sound harsh, but the well-balanced nature of most psionics, spells, and items means that it will be incredibly difficult to make up the difference without switching out several Psychic Warrior levels for levels in something(s) that grant(s) save-boosting class feature(s). Since doing so would probably constitute a major build-focus-and-flavor change, I'm going to refrain from conjecturing. Don't feel bad about this, though-- the "100 in a save" challenge is probably the toughest feature of the lot, and the build's immunities do indeed mean that it will be quite formidable in more reasonable game situations. Yeah, it is a big limitation in the various builds. However, there might be some spells which grant similar things or feats which do (I know that there is a domain that does, but the psicrystal doesnt have any divine spellcasting ability). Maybe one of these diety spells can help. Are there any spells which grant such things? The guy has tons of money left. D) For the last little bit of AC, consider comparing notes with the builds above and the "Uber AC" page cited on the first post-- there are a number of great AC-boosting items and combination that should fill in your gaps somehow. I'll check it out. All he really needs is a big boost to dex, it would fix nearly all of the problems. Like I said before I dont think it will be able to make it, but it is only a few items shy and the character concept is just too cool ;) I can take it off of the thread at any time if you like. Have a good one!
Scion of Coldshard 07-22-05, 01:24 AM	I redid my above build and reposted it. It is much closer now, only missing 2 items. Maybe someone can give me a hand ;)
Richmud 07-23-05, 05:31 PM	Well, assuming any of this works and is allowable I think of got an interesting possibilty to pass the challenge. I haven't gotten all the detail figured out yet. Basically it revolves around making a few magic items that cause the wearer to meet the challanage. This can be done by using a thrallherd with two thralls or one of the two needed builds with leadership fit in. What is required is one charecter in the thrall of fraz-urb'luu prestige class found in dragon 333. He should be able to use the alter reality ability to generate magic items and/or money. These magic items can then be taken by an artificar and turned into crafting exp. Given sufficent time the artificar can create any nonepic item. That brings up one of the potentional flaws. I know inherent and enhancment bonuses max out but do any other bonuses? Or with enough money and exp can a +100 insight bonus to attacks be crafted?
carnivore 07-25-05, 03:47 PM	Pre-EPIC, Most all bonuses That are gained from items have a Cap....notice: Epic Magic Items While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item. Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5. Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5. Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5. Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus). Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5. Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6. Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30. Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th. Has a caster level above 20th. Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items. An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items. Epic magic items are not artifacts. They are not unique, though they are certainly very rare, and anyone with the proper item creation feats can build them. Even an epic magic item can never grant a dodge bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus that can be applied to an ability score is +5. An epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however. :D
cvazi 09-15-05, 02:35 PM	This build is a combination of nano-bots and my synchonicity+affinity field+fusion trick. Hey- if a kobold can do it, so can a goblin! Extended Description of how he protects all his followers: Squibb uses all of the Thralls, cohorts, sub-cohorts, followers and believers he can obtain. Squibb shrinks ALL of them into diminutive size and packs as many as he can into a 40' radius Affinity Field. He uses Affinity Field to give them all energy resistance to all the elemental damage with "Energy Adaptation- Specified" through the affinity field, and every round give them all 100 temporary HP with "Vigor" through the Affinity Field. Therefore, every round, Squib takes 50 points of damage, and all the cohorts and followers will take 50 physical damage, and 50 physical damage through the Affinity Field because Squibb takes 50 damage. So each cohort and follower takes a total of 100 damage per round, which is provided by the massive shared vigor. Squibb, Goblin King Goblin: Egoist9-Thrall Herd 10 (XP cusp of ECL20) Only relavant stats: Int 19 = 14 (6p) base + 5 tome Con 18 = 13(5p) + 5 tome Wis 24 = 13(5p) + 5 tome + 6 belt Cha 32 = 18(16p) + 5 tome + 5 levels + 6 cloak - 2 Racial Feats: Inquisitor(1), Psi-crystal Affinity [Resolved](1), Psicrystal Containment (3), Psionic Meditation (5), Expanded Knowledge: Mindlink (6), Twin Power (9), Expand Power (10), Overchannel (12), Supernatural Transformation(15), Expanded Iron Will(18) Powers: SYNCHRONICITY, Compression, Vigor, Swarm of Crystals, Empty Mind, Body Adjustment, Hustle, Energy Adaptation-Specified, Metamorphosis, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Disinegrate, Fusion, Affinity Field Equipment: +5 Tome of Int, +5 Tome of Cha, +5 Tome of Con, +5 tome of wis bracer of resistance + 5 +6 cloak of Cha Torc of Power Preservation Belt of Wis +6 Crystal Mask of Mind Armor Thralls: x2 Goblin Egoist7-Metamind10 (cusp of ECL 18) Each has leadership- and each cohort has leadership and psionic levitate. 1 sub cohort is a nymph 1 sub cohort is a black guard 2 1 sub cohort is a champion of gwenth 1 follower is a wyrmling white dragon 1 follower is a hexblade3 1 follower is a paladin of tyranny2 1 follower is a palaldin2 This should yield several hundred goblin followers. Buff rounds (start with 2 foci and as many followers surrounding you as possible): Round 1: Temporal Acceleration, Augment x2 (thanks to overchannel) TA Round 1: Metamorphosize into a Choker, Twin Synchronicity, Refocus TA Round 2: Twin Synchronicity x2, Hustle, Refocus x2, Synchronicity x2 TA Round 3: Twin Synchronicity x2, Hustle, Refocus x2, Synchronicity x6 Round 1: Manifest Widened Affinity Field, Synchronicity x10 Round 2: Fuse with thrall, activate font of power, Manifest Compression (augment for x2 size change and increased duration), have everyone approach, manifest compression again- if you start running out of action, fuse with another follower, and use his synchronicity actions, then dismiss fusion with that follower when he has no more extra actions. Manifest levitate when you cannot fit any more followers in your affinity field. You and all your followers and cohorts now have nigh-infinte actions per round- and you gain more every round. Round 3: Along with maintainting the nigh infinite action combination, manifest Energy Adaptation-Specified once for each of the elements in the damage competition: Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity and Acid. Also manifest Intellect fortress to halve the damage transfered from affinity field. This should bring the damage per round to 75, which is below the 100 temporary HP granted by Vigor per round. On round 11, dismiss fusion with your first cohort and fuse with your other cohort. Activate Font of Power The challenge: 1) 100 AC: Infinte "Aid Another"-check 2) +100 to hit: Infinte "Aid Another"-check 3) Deals 100 damage average per round: Infinte Swarm of Crystals- Check 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check: Infinte "Aid Another"-check 5) 100 ft movement speed: Fuse with wyrmling follower-Check. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves: Will Save: +13 Class levels +12 Empty Mind +11 Nymph SU ability (fusion) +11 Black Guard(fusion) +11 Paladin(fusion) +11 Paladin of Tyranny(fusion) +11 Hexblade(fusion) +7 Wis +4 Insight-Crystal Mask of mind armor +5 Resistance Bonus-Ring +2 Iron Will +2 Psicrystal ===== +100 Will Save-CHECK. 7) 100 spell-levels castable: Yeah- I can do that. 8) 100 hit points: Con is +4, + 1 min per HD- Check 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round: Overchanneled Vigor for 100 points per round- check! 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) Check
LordofProcrastination 09-24-05, 03:59 PM	Very classy, Cvazi! Squibb the Goblin King surely belongs in the hall of fame. Excellent use of psionic jibber-jabber and nanotechnology! My only query is this: all of your followers are subject to 200 damage each round -- 100 as usual for being involved in the challenge, and 100 extra for being linked to Squibb with the Affinity field. The overchanneled Vigor should cover the first 100 every round, but what about the next 100? This question may just stem from psionic inexperience-- I suspect that you'll be able to squeeze an extra healing-power in there somehow. Just clearing up loose ends. Once that question goes by, and if no-one else has any complaints, Squibb will be officially added to the list of 100^10 Elite Optimization Champions. Great work!
cvazi 09-26-05, 08:33 AM	Very classy, Cvazi! Squibb the Goblin King surely belongs in the hall of fame. Excellent use of psionic jibber-jabber and nanotechnology! My only query is this: all of your followers are subject to 200 damage each round -- 100 as usual for being involved in the challenge, and 100 extra for being linked to Squibb with the Affinity field. The overchanneled Vigor should cover the first 100 every round, but what about the next 100? This question may just stem from psionic inexperience-- I suspect that you'll be able to squeeze an extra healing-power in there somehow. Just clearing up loose ends. Once that question goes by, and if no-one else has any complaints, Squibb will be officially added to the list of 100^10 Elite Optimization Champions. Great work! Thanks- Actually, I had forgotten entirely about the affinity field damage. I fixed that by using my nigh infinite actions to manifest Energy Adaptation- Specified for the 5 differnt elements in the competition: Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity and Acid. This immunity is passed on through Affinity Field, stopping 50 damage per turn to each cohort. I hope that satisfies the competition!
Scion of Coldshard 09-26-05, 10:55 AM	I am not sure that you can stack aid anothers from the same person for the same action. I also am not sure if the damage shared counts as having come from a psionic power (or even a spell, with transparency). Is the massive amount of physical damage each round from a spell or power? How many people are standing around anyway? there is you, and you fused with someone I believe, which leaves 6 people out so, if your combo works, then you are taking 50 straight (minus any DR you might have) and then 25 from the other 6 people.. but then, I am sick today, so maybe I just missed the obvious ;)
cvazi 09-26-05, 11:15 AM	I am not sure that you can stack aid anothers from the same person for the same action.Yes. This is the basis for the Nano-bot's Tactic.Aid Another In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack. Emphasis has been bolded. I also am not sure if the damage shared counts as having come from a psionic power (or even a spell, with transparency). Is the massive amount of physical damage each round from a spell or power?The the source of the damage is the affinity field (which is why you get a save from the field). Even if it doesn't get affected by the intellect fortress, per turn the thralls are taking 50 physical from the challenge and 50 physical from the affinity field. I wasn't quite sure how Biofeedback would work (are they all seperate sources of damage, or are they all from the same source?). Either way, the 50 direct + 50 Affinity Field=100 temporary HP from the Shared Vigor, so whatever the ruling, I would be safe here. How many people are standing around anyway? there is you, and you fused with someone I believe, which leaves 6 people out so, if your combo works, then you are taking 50 straight (minus any DR you might have) and then 25 from the other 6 people..How many (goblins (small) + augmented compression) diminutive flying (thanks to levitate) creatures can fit within a 40' radius: A whole heck of a lot. but then, I am sick today, so maybe I just missed the obvious ;)Thanks for the questions. Hope you feel better soon!
Scion of Coldshard 09-26-05, 11:26 AM	Yes. This is the basis for the Nano-bot's Tactic.Emphasis has been bolded. Nanobots are a bunch of different guys. Arent you working off of just a few guys doing it lots of times? There is a fundamental difference there ;) The the source of the damage is the affinity field I dont believe that is true, given the wording of the power. The power changes how things work within its area, true, but after that you simply take the same effects as other people in the field. It isnt that the field itself sees you take damage and then damages everyone else, you all take damage from the sources at the same time. Otherwise the damage would likely be empathic and the power would say that 'it' deals, not that everyone else takes the same damage that you do. Either way, the 50 direct + 50 Affinity Field=100 temporary HP from the Shared Vigor, so whatever the ruling, I would be safe here. It seems like it would be 50 direct, and then 50 from each other creature in the field with you. Which would seem to be several hundred. But again, maybe I am missing something in the writeup. How many (goblins (small) + augmented compression) diminutive flying (thanks to levitate) creatures can fit within a 40' radius: A whole heck of a lot. I am apparently missing this part. I just dont see where they are coming from. Again, I must be missing something, sorry ;/ Still though, if there are literally hundreds of them then arent you taking 'thousands' of damage every round? The little goblins shouldnt live very long in such an area. 50 damage a round is likely too much for them. Thanks for the questions. Hope you feel better soon! Thanks ;) just trying to figure out how it works.
cvazi 09-26-05, 11:54 AM	Ah- I think I see where the miscommunication is coming from. I am not just using cohorts and sub-cohorts, I am using all of the followers and thralls also. I am shrinking ALL of them into diminutive size and packing as many as I can into my 40' Affinity Field. I am using Affinity Field to give them all energy resistance to all the elemental damage with "Energy Adaptation- Specified" through the affinity field, and every round give them all 100 temporary HP with "Vigor" through the Affinity Field. Therefore, every round, Squib takes 50 points of damage, and all the cohorts and followers will take 50 physical damage, and 50 physical damage through the Affinity Field because Squibb takes 50 damage. So each cohort and follower takes a total of 100 damage per round, which is provided by the massive shared vigor. I hope this clarifies things!
Scion of Coldshard 09-26-05, 11:59 AM	cool ;) thanks
Lusden Veharo 11-03-05, 04:09 PM	So does the Goblin King get in? Working on a build based aroun a Paladin Saint. We'll see how it goes-I know for sure I can get a few to 100 and keep them there.
LordofProcrastination 11-03-05, 06:02 PM	Indeed, Squibb the Goblin King (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7258756&postcount=150) has been inducted to the Hall of Fame (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6364840&postcount=1). Pats on the back to cvazi for his cunning combination of several high-intensity techniques!
cvazi 11-03-05, 06:52 PM	:mymy: :D :tongue:
Lusden Veharo 11-04-05, 04:40 AM	OK, here's most of my entry, though I haven't gone into my feats, skills, or much of my equipment yet. It remains to be seen whether those can boost the skill and to-hit high enough to complete the challenge, but I'm going to try. Half-Fey(1)/Nixie (3)/Paladin 2/Cleric 1/Sorceror 7/Arcane Duelest 2/Witch Hunter 2/Risen Martyr 1 1 level is free Cleric domains are free I have 23 turning attempts. Starting stats are 8/8/8/14/16/18 before racial mods; after, they raise to 4/16/6/16/20/30. I will be Shapechanging into a Nymph and possibly into something after that, so the physical stats are by no means final (I'm hoping to use my natural form via Alter Self) though I lack a Constitution score entirely. Final mental stats will be at least 24/28/50, (+2 age to all, +6 Enhancement to all, +5 levels to Charisma, +5 book to Charisma, +2 Risen Martyr to Charisma) and possibly higher. 1) 100 AC Quite simple, since I have Cha to AC four times: Divine Shield, Nymph, Risen Martyr and Arcane Duelist. My charisma modifier will be at least +20, for a 90 AC before gear. With a +5 Large Steel Shield, only +3 is needed from dex and natural. 2) +100 to hit I'm not even close to reaching this without gear; hopefully I can amass enough bonuses to get +100. We'll see. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round Divine Power grants me a +16 base attack bonus, meaning I can make four attacks per round. With Divine Might, I can deal 80 damage before weapon damage or strength. Assuming I use a Longsword for my weapon, I only need a strength score of 12 to deal an average of 102 damage a round. A base strength score of 6 is thus needed from my polymorph form-essentially any shape will do. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check I haven't yet picked a skill to shoot for, so I don't know how hard this will be to reach. 5) 100 ft movement speed The final Polymorph form will have 100 feet of movement speed, and there are a number of decent forms that have that. Alternatively, a 50 foot movement speed and a spell like Greater Aspect of the Diety would grant a 100 ft fly speed. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves Also a cinch, with Cha to AC from Divine Grace, Nymph, Kami's Grace, and an item of Ruin Delver's Fortune totaling +80 Reflex. Add this with a Cloak of Resistance +5, Grace +1 from Swashbuckler, and an item of Divine Agility (+4 Enhancement to dex, reflex save as a Rogue) and the final form only needs a base dexterity of 14 to secure the +100. 7) 100 spell-levels castable Not counting the 0 level spells, I have: Cleric: 5 spell levels Sorceror: 95 spell levels For 100 total levels I can cast. Just barely squeaking through here! 8) 100 hit points 16d12 hit dice = 104 hit points. Yeah, I really am that fragile, and no, it doesn't matter. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round I can pass the reflex save to avoid the 70 points of energy damage, and an item of Celestial Blood covers the physical. I take no damage during this contest. So far, I need four spells out of items: Shapechange, Divine Agility, Divne Power, and Celestial Blood. My final Polymorph form must have a strength of 6 or greater, dexterity of 14 of greater, and a movement speed of 100 feet (or 50 feet with spell backup; I'd prefer the 100 feet) and be able to use weapons. There are an insane number of monsters that meet the minimum requirements, and hopefully one is suitable that meets the strict movement speed.
Lusden Veharo 11-06-05, 04:39 AM	Q: Do I have to get exactly 100? Can I go over? A: Yes, you can go over, silly literalist. "The Silly Literalist" Nixie (3)/Paladin 2/Cleric 1/Sorceror 7/Arcane Duelest 3/Witch Hunter 2/Risen Martyr 1 ECL 19 with no xp spent on anything; a first, I believe. Cleric domains: Celerity and any; I prefer Luck I have 23 turning attempts. I use Shapechange to turn into a Nymph, then Polymorph to turn into a Dire Bear. Starting stats are 8/8/8/14/16/18 before racial mods; after, they raise to 4/16/6/16/20/26. Final Stats: Strength: 31 (Dire Bear) +8 (Size, Animal Growth) +6 (Enhancement, Divine Power) +2 (Morale, Elation) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +20 (Unnamed, Psychofeedback) +4 (Unnamed, Assimilate) =75 Dexterity: 13 (Dire Bear) +2 (Morale, Elation) +4 (Enhancement, Divine Agility) -2 (Size, Animal Growth) +2 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +4 (Unnamed, Assimilate) -5 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =18 Constitution: 19 (Dire Bear) +4 (Size, Animal Growth) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +4 (Unnamed, Assimilate) -7 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =24 Intelligence: 14 (Point Buy) +2 (Racial, Nixie) +3 (Age) +2 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) -7 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =14 Wisdom: 16 (Point Buy) +2 (Racial, Nixie) +2 (Racial, Half-Fey) +3 (Age) +6 (Enhancement, Periapt of Wisdom) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +4 (Unnamed, Assimilate) -1 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =36 Charisma: 18 (Point Buy) +8 (Racial, Nixie) +3 (Age) +4 (Inherent, Tome of Leadership) +6 (Enhancement, Cloak of Charisma) +2 (Unnamed, Risen Martyr) +5 (Unnamed, Levels) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +4 (Unnamed, Assimilate) =54 Preparations: Burn 5 Dexterity, 7 Constitution, 7 Intelligence and 1 Wisdom to gain +20 Strength using Psychofeedback Feats: B Dodge B Weapon Finesse 1 Nymph's Kiss 3 Divine Might 6 Mobility 9 Track 12 Nimbus of Light 15 Arcane Strike Starting Languages are Aquan, Celestial, Common, Elven, Sylvan Skills: Knowledge: Arcana, Perform (cc), Tumble (cc), UMD (cc), UPD (cc) are taken at every level up to 10. After that, Jump replaces Perform and Tumble. I have enough skill points to max UMD and UPD (though both are cross-class) and gain 20 ranks in Jump, and that's all that matters. One of my third level spells is Magic Circle Against Evil, taken at sixth level as a Sorceror. 1) 100 AC 10 Base +22 Nymph +22 Risen Martyr +22 Arcane Duelist +09 Natural +07 Insight, Defensive Precognition +04 Armor, +2 Twilight Leather Armor +04 Dexterity +01 Dodge feat +01 Dodge, Haste -02 Size (Huge) =100 2) +100 to hit This one took most of my effort to reach. Here's all the bonuses that I've piled up: +16 BAB (Divine Power) +15 Dexterous Attack +32 Strength +10 Luck (Nature's Favor) +10 Morale (Nature's Avatar) +7 Insight (Offensive Precognition) +5 Enhancement on Weapon +4 Arcane Strike (4 spell levels) +1 Enchant Chosen Weapon (Arcane Duelist) +1 Competance from Graft Weapon +1 Haste -2 Size (Huge) = +100 3) Deals 100 damage average per round +32 Strength +22 Divine Might +10 Nature's Avatar +10 Nature's Favor +10 Arcane Strike (average) +10 Spikes +08 Offensive Prescience +07 Huge Club +06 Enhancement -15 Dexterous Attack = 100 If push comes to shove and I miss during the first two rounds, I'll simply delay moving away-only the round I have to move closer is at risk of missing entirely, and that round I have a reroll from the Luck domain. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Jump: +8 for base speed +20 for having 20 ranks in Jump +30 for the Jump spell +5 for a Ring of Jumping +2 for 5 ranks in Tumble +32 for being really, really strong +4 for Greater Heroism -1 for an Armor Check Penalty = +100 Jump 5) 100 ft movement speed The Dire Bear has a base speed of 40 feet, which the Celerity domain changes to 50 feet. Greater Visage of the Diety gives me wings with a fly speed twice my normal movement speed, so my wings can haul me around at 100 feet a round. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves +22 Divine Grace +22 Nymph +22 Kami's Grace +10 Base +07 Insight, Defensive Precognition +05 Resistance, Vest of Resistance +04 Dexterity +04 Morale, Greater Heroism +04 Luck, Lucky Shoes = +100 7) 100 spell-levels castable Not counting the 0 level spells, I have: Cleric: 5 spell levels Sorceror: 95 spell levels For 100 total levels I can cast. Keeping the theme strong! I sacrifice 68 spell levels to Arcane Strike, and cast the spell Feather Fall 10 times during the challenge-I'm not using my Swift actions. 8) 100 hit points 15d12 hit dice = 98 hit points on average, plus 105 bonus hit points for high con, one for Assimilating a small furry animal, and 11 for Heroism. 215 hit points total is greater than the 100 needed, sadly. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round I can pass the reflex save to avoid the 70 points of energy damage, and Shapechanging into a Nymph grants DR 10/Cold Iron. I therefore take 10 points of damage a round for a total of 170 before any spells. I'm using one of those: Stoneskin, cast by myself at caster level 7, to prevent 70 damage over the course of the challenge. Thus, I take 100 damage. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds A great many of these buffs will run out the round after the challenge is over, so I maintain these stats for 100 seconds. If any of these are wrong, please let me know so I can tweak them to exactly 100. I'm picky like that-I had this beating 100 on all of them nearly a full day before this post, the delay only because I wanted it exact. Power Up: Half an hour before the challenge, pull out a squirrel or some other small 1 hp critter and Assimilate it. Pull on all gear except the shield, cast Stoneskin at caster level 7, then activate the scrolls in the order they are listed, one a round. The final half dozen are done in animal form, but Use Magic Device never lists any restrictions on body parts or vocal cords needed-we're already tricking the item into working when it shouldn't, why should such silly things as hands and words be required? Wish is used to gain a +1 Inherent bonus to strength, and is used after I turn myself into an animal to remove any stacking questions. During the challenge: Round 1: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, put on shield. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 2: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move toward the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 3: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move away from the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 4: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move toward the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Rounds 5-11: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Rounds 12-17: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Scrolls/Power Stones: Assimilate; ML 17; 3,825 gp Graft Weapon; ML 7; 525 gp Spikes; CL 20; 1500 gp Shapechange; CL 17; 3,825 gp Offensive Precognition; ML 19; 475 gp Offensive Prescience; ML 19; 475 gp Defensive Precognition; ML 19; 475 gp Heroism, Greater; CL 11; 1650 gp Jump; CL 9; 225 gp Polymorph; CL 12; 1200 gp Animal Growth; CL 9; 1125 gp Nature's Favor; CL 20; 1500 gp Nature's Avatar; CL 20; 4500 gp Psychofeedback; ML 20; 2500 gp Divine Agility; CL 19; 2,375 gp Greater Visage of the Diety; CL 18; 4,050 gp Total cost of scrolls: 40,225 gp Standard Magic Items: Tome of Leadership +4; 111,000 gp Periapt of Wisdom +6; 36,000 gp Cloak of Charisma +6; 36,000 gp Ring of Jumping; 2,500 gp +2 Twilight Wild Leather Armor; 36,160 gp Custom Magic Items: Ring of Resistance +5 As the cloak; 25,000 gp Skullcap of Magical Intuition This skullcap brings out latent talents when dealing with magical and psionic items. +10 Competance Bonus to Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device; 20,000 gp Muscle Belt Any cleric knowledgable about anatomy that wears this belt will be constantly under the effects of a Divine Power spell. Requires 10 ranks in Heal to use, Cleric only; 141,120 gp Topaz Ioun Stone This ioun stone helps keep its wearer out of the way of harm physical harm. +4 Luck bonus to Reflex saves; 64,000 gp Bracers of Activity When a cleric, strong of faith, wears these bracers, they fill him with energy and resolve. Elation, continuous; Cleric only; 33600 gp Mundane Items: 1,500 jade circlet for Shapechange Total Gold Spent: 537,105 gp
AKABetina 11-06-05, 05:40 AM	A couple of problems with your build, but it's a great start. First, inherant bonuses don't stack up with polymorph; you're down 1 str which drops you out of Jump, to hit, and damage (for now), but this should be an easy fix. Second, Half-Fey has a +2 LA, and a Nixie has a total level of 4 (1 HD and +3 to the LA), so you are 2 levels over 20. This is really the most problematic part; the half-fey is probably easiest to drop and make up for. Third, you list the Swashbuckler on your Reflex save, but don't have it in the class; likewise, you have Weapon Finesse listed as a bonus feat, but without levels in Swashbuckler, I don't see where you get that. Fourth, the Celerity domain gives a bonus to your speed, but it doesn't specifically alter your normal land speed; it's rather picky, but I don't think it qualifies for the doubling of speed for the race; you're at 90 feet but that is a pretty simple fix. Most of these are pretty simple fixes, but they should be sorted out. Like I said, great start.
Dark_beebles 11-06-05, 05:49 AM	LordofProcrastination Check your PM messages for the board..I qualified for each and every single requirement you asked for...if you want me to fine tune the guy for the board...let me know will take a while for me to get all the rules, stats, and everything worked out..and by the raw...it all works..Cheaply i might add but it does work Just no sane person or dm would ever want this done to them..or allow it in anygame. Edit: Lusden..your build wont work...1st off....your taking exp penalty..But its a really awesome build non the less man did a great job
Lusden Veharo 11-06-05, 05:51 AM	OK, a few questions and replies: 1) Where is it stated that inherent bonuses don't stack with Polymorph? I need to figure out the exact rules here, because it might rule out some of my solutions. Still, I'm pretty sure I can pick up a point of strength somewhere, or else add a few bonuses here and there. I don't think I'm using Sacred yet, for example. 2) Where was Half-Fey errata'd to a +2 LA? It hurts, it hurts...I'll probably use Magic Blooded, or whatever the +2 cha -2 wis +0 LA template is called, and pile up something with +2 cha for +1 LA. Also, Nixie loses its racial hit die, just like all monsters with only one do when they pick up character classes. 3) Swashbuckler was in an earlier build and I forgot to remove Grace; not hard to remove with a luck bonus at +3 on the boots and money to spare. Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat of the Nixie, as is dodge. 4) I suppose the Celerity domain could be viewed either way, and if it's not accepted as I view it then a simple spell from the BoED will fix it. I didn't use that because I'm trying to be as original as possible.
LordofProcrastination 11-06-05, 11:33 AM	Good efforts, Lusden Veharo! Lacking the time today, I'll give your and Dark_Beebles' builds a thorough examination tomorrow evening. Best of luck!
deathwishjoe 11-06-05, 05:40 PM	I thought Id see if I could make my recent build work for the 100^10 challenge. Name: Mr. roboto race: Human class: wizard 5/incantatrix 3/void disciple 12/ Str:8 Dex:8 Con:8 Wis: 18 Int: 23 Cha: 8 level 1 iron will level 1 spell penetration level 3 heighten spell level 5 craft wondrous item level 6 extend spell level 6 persistent spell level 9 craft magic arms and armor level 12 craft construct level 15 magical artisian (construct) level 18 arcane disciple (war) 19 HD effigy huge sized 48,000 GP wand of repair critical damage 60.000 GP contigent spell of protection from energy (fire) 3000 GP set to when I wake up contigent spell of protection from energy (cold) 3000 GP set to when I wake up contigent spell of protection from energy (sonic) 3000 GP set to when I wake up contigent spell of protection from energy (electricity) 3000 GP set to when I wake up contigent spell of protection from energy (acid) 3000 GP set to when I wake up contigent spell of protection from energy (fire) 3000 GP set to when the first contingency wears out contigent spell of protection from energy (cold) 3000 GP set to when the first contingency wears out contigent spell of protection from energy (sonic) 3000 GP set to when the first contingency wears out contigent spell of protection from energy (electricity) 3000 GP set to when the first contingency wears out contigent spell of protection from energy (acid) 3000 GP set to when the first contingency wears out diamond worth 100 GP (spell focus) large chest 5000 GP (spell focus) small chest 50 GP (spell focus) ring of +20 to spell craft 40,000 GP . the effigy creature we made is a Storm Giant with the following templates and in the following order. Storm Giant (type == giant) half black dragon (type == dragon) half blue dragon (type == dragon) half green dragon (type == dragon) half red dragon (type == dragon) half white dragon (type == dragon) half brass dragon (type == dragon) half bronze dragon (type == dragon) half copper dragon (type == dragon) half gold dragon (type == dragon) half silver dragon (type == dragon) half amethyst dragon (type == dragon) half battle dragon (type == dragon) half brown dragon (type == dragon) half chaos dragon (type == dragon) half crystal dragon (type == dragon) half deep dragon (type == dragon) half emerald dragon (type == dragon) half etherial dragon (type == dragon) half fanged dragon (type == dragon) half howling dragon (type == dragon) half oceanus dragon (type == dragon) half pyroclastic dragon (type == dragon) half radiant dragon (type == dragon) half rust dragon (type == dragon) half sapphire dragon (type == dragon) half shadow dragon (type == dragon) half song dragon (type == dragon) half styx dragon (type == dragon) half tarterian dragon (type == dragon) half topaz dragon (type == dragon) paragon (type == dragon) effigy (type == construct) and has the following stats and bonuses. str: 298 dex: 27 con: - int: - wis: 11 cha: 1 AC 178 150 land, 300 ft fly (average) 458 HPs DR 10/adamantine during the buffing rounds we use the incantatrixes ability to persist the protection from energy spells and divine power. we then tell the construct to accept the next spell I am going to cast on it. I then cast magic jar and then posses the effigy. I then put my body in the chets and cast secret chest on it and send it to the astral plane. I swallow the soul jar gem and the small chest and enter the challange. 1) 100 AC +12 insight bonus (paragon) +12 luck bonus (paragon) +8 (dex) -2 (size) +127 natural armor (various templates) 2) +100 to hit +20 BAB +144 Str bonus 3) Deals 100 damage average per round with 4 attacks at level 20 and doing +89 damage with just strenght alone we make this easy and then some. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check lets go with jump. (free your mind) +12 cross class skill ranks +144 str bonus +48 speed bonus 5) 100 ft movement speed 50ft base X3 paragon = 150 ft 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves this one was a bit trickier. we use the void disciples void release to add our Str bonus to our will save 3 times during the compitition so we can keep it up long enough. +15 base will save + 144 str bonus to will 7) 100 spell-levels castable with the spells of a 16 level wizard we have 115 spell levels 8) 100 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...) 19d10 (maxed by paragon) + 19 * 12 (paragon bonus HPs) = 458 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round we have 170 points of damage over the entire compitition of the ten types. fire immunity up to 240 points of damage from protection from energy spells cold immunity up to 240 points of damage from protection from energy spells sonic immunity up to 240 points of damage from protection from energy spells electricity immunity up to 240 points of damage from protection from energy spells acid immunity up to 240 points of damage from protection from energy spells DR 10 adamantine covers the 2 non adamantine forms of physical damage. we are now taking 30 damage a turn. to help offset this damage we can use repear critical damage every other turn from the wand and from my own prepared spells to keep me from dying. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds yep just barely on the will save and HPs issue but yeah I made it.
Tempest Stormwind 11-06-05, 06:01 PM	I don't have SS with me, but I'm fairly certain you can only apply one half-golem template to any single thing. Furthermore, due to SS type pyramiding, I'm not sure if those templates even CAN be applied to the same being. I'll have to look this up more.
Lusden Veharo 11-06-05, 08:38 PM	I caught an error in my build-I listed a +5 level bonus to charisma. It should be +4, and the Tome +4 increases to +5 to cover it. I have the cash to buy the better tome.
deathwishjoe 11-06-05, 11:56 PM	I don't have SS with me, but I'm fairly certain you can only apply one half-golem template to any single thing. Furthermore, due to SS type pyramiding, I'm not sure if those templates even CAN be applied to the same being. I'll have to look this up more. half golem template doesnt change the type of the base creature untill a failed will save. And from what I remember when planning out the build the order in which everything is added is legal. if you find something in particular that doesnt sit right let me know and I'll adjust it.
LordofProcrastination 11-07-05, 01:41 AM	A quick note of hello and constructive criticism for our latest newcomer: Deathwishjoe, you probably ought to post the template-type path your character follows, for confirmation of legitimacy's sake. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "liquid pain" an un-updated feature from the Book of Vile Darkness, and is thus impermissable in this challenge? I'll give Mr Roboto here a more complete run-down when I have a chance -- which should be in the next day or two, right after the others in the queue.
deathwishjoe 11-07-05, 01:56 AM	liquid pain is indeed from the book of vile darkness. I suppose I was under the mistaken impression that if a book has not yet been updated with a compareable book then it was still permissable. after rereading the rules for this challenge I now see how that was incorrect. this I believe would invalidate any templates gained from savage species. I now have to ask is the draconomicon a 3.0 or 3.5 book? It'll be a few days before I update the price for not actually making the effigy or finding a way to get persistent divine power into the build othrwise. at the same time Ill have a well diffined map of the order the templates go and the way they stack.
AKABetina 11-07-05, 05:03 AM	OK, a few questions and replies: 1) Where is it stated that inherent bonuses don't stack with Polymorph? I need to figure out the exact rules here, because it might rule out some of my solutions. Still, I'm pretty sure I can pick up a point of strength somewhere, or else add a few bonuses here and there. I don't think I'm using Sacred yet, for example. 2) Where was Half-Fey errata'd to a +2 LA? It hurts, it hurts...I'll probably use Magic Blooded, or whatever the +2 cha -2 wis +0 LA template is called, and pile up something with +2 cha for +1 LA. Also, Nixie loses its racial hit die, just like all monsters with only one do when they pick up character classes. 3) Swashbuckler was in an earlier build and I forgot to remove Grace; not hard to remove with a luck bonus at +3 on the boots and money to spare. Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat of the Nixie, as is dodge. 4) I suppose the Celerity domain could be viewed either way, and if it's not accepted as I view it then a simple spell from the BoED will fix it. I didn't use that because I'm trying to be as original as possible. An inherant bonus to strength is a permanent part of your person; when you change your person, you lose the penalties for aging, but you also lose the benefits of an inherant boost; I believe Skip goes over that, and like it or hate it, it's both common sense and legal interpretation. Half-Fey, as of Fiend Folio, was always a +2 racial adjustment. Interesting point on the 1 HD; I had been under the impression that only humanoids lost their first hit die if they were only listed with one, not all types... especially since most 1 HD creatures have no racial hit die advancement, as the Nixie does. Still, that puts you one over there. Dodge is actually a bonus feat for a Nixie; Weapon Finesse is the 1st "level" feat for the Nixie; it isn't distinguished with the "B" after it, so it's not an actual bonus feat for them.
AKABetina 11-07-05, 05:18 AM	The question I have for Mr. Roboto is whether templates like those can be added to an effigy creature, and how one would construct such a beast. While I understand that there is no specific rule prohibiting the adding of templates to a self-created construct, there is nothing stating that it IS allowable, either... doesn't this kind of fall under the rather dubious claim that "just because it isn't outlawed, it's allowed" faulty logic? Such templates as listed can, if one is deliberate enough, be stacked one on top of the other in theory-- there is no question about that. The problem is applying them to a creature that is being *created* as a construct. Granted that the purpose of this challenge is a rules-bending excersize, and greatly entertaining. And while rules exist for creating creatures based on hit dice, I am unaware of any that specifically allow for the addition of inherited templates to a construct; applied, yes-- the half-golem templates, for example. But inherited? How exactly does one *craft* a half-dragon (with 10 halves, no less)? Where are the rules for applying such templates to a *crafted* creature? Even applying such templates to a base creature doesn't change the base creature; you cannot polymorph into a half-dragon, after all.
VagueZ 11-07-05, 10:00 AM	Personally, I'd argue that he's not adding templates to an effigy; he's creating an effigy of a templated creature. If you can make an effigy of a normal monster, why not a celestial version of that monster? Granted, Mr. Roboto has an insane number of templates, and the non-effigy version is bizarre to think of, but I don't see that that would be a problem in an optimization exercise.
Lusden Veharo 11-07-05, 10:29 AM	An inherant bonus to strength is a permanent part of your person; when you change your person, you lose the penalties for aging, but you also lose the benefits of an inherant boost; I believe Skip goes over that, and like it or hate it, it's both common sense and legal interpretation. Half-Fey, as of Fiend Folio, was always a +2 racial adjustment. Interesting point on the 1 HD; I had been under the impression that only humanoids lost their first hit die if they were only listed with one, not all types... especially since most 1 HD creatures have no racial hit die advancement, as the Nixie does. Still, that puts you one over there. Dodge is actually a bonus feat for a Nixie; Weapon Finesse is the 1st "level" feat for the Nixie; it isn't distinguished with the "B" after it, so it's not an actual bonus feat for them. Ah, Skip; how I hate him. Still, I can always add a Contingent Wish with trigger: Subject to Polymorph spell to add a +1 inherent bonus after I turn into an animal, or add that to one of my scrolls that I activate with UMD. The book is a convenient way to score it, but there's others. Feats: Alertness, DodgeB, Weapon FinesseB It's not really important since I'm not using it, but it's listed for completeness. As to Half-Fey, I was going to Crystal Keep, and they have it listed as +1. I'll find something else; I only used it for +4 charisma.
AKABetina 11-08-05, 01:07 AM	Personally, I'd argue that he's not adding templates to an effigy; he's creating an effigy of a templated creature. If you can make an effigy of a normal monster, why not a celestial version of that monster? Granted, Mr. Roboto has an insane number of templates, and the non-effigy version is bizarre to think of, but I don't see that that would be a problem in an optimization exercise. The problem is that it ISN'T a creature; it's an augmented creature, or an altered creature. There are no rules dictating how to add those templates with a construct, because like it or not, that is exactly what you are doing. Quote: Originally Posted by SRD Nixie Feats: Alertness, DodgeB, Weapon FinesseB Weird; my copy of the Monster Manual doesn't have that; it just has Dodge (B) and Weapon Finesse...
deathwishjoe 11-08-05, 02:37 AM	Personally, I'd argue that he's not adding templates to an effigy; he's creating an effigy of a templated creature. If you can make an effigy of a normal monster, why not a celestial version of that monster? Granted, Mr. Roboto has an insane number of templates, and the non-effigy version is bizarre to think of, but I don't see that that would be a problem in an optimization exercise. VagueZ is completely correct. I am not adding these templates to an effigy. the type requirements would not be met for many of the templates that way. what I am doing is making an effigy of a warbeast, woodling, magebred, void mind, half-golem flesh, half-golem clay, half-golem stone, half-golem iron, winged, insectile, multiheaded(lernaean) X3 extra, feral, half-troll, spell warped, half Black dragon, half Blue dragon, half Green dragon, half Red dragon, half White dragon, half Brass dragon, half Bronze dragon, half Copper dragon, half Gold dragon, half Silver dragon, paragon, dire tiger. If we are agreed that while VERY VERY VERY unlikley such a creature could exist according to RAW then adding the effigy template to it by making an effigy of such a creature should be legal as well. the description of what effigy can be added to mentions only types and by the time I add the effigy template the type is still legal. I also checked to make sure that there was no reference to actually having seen the type of creature one makes. while the creature being made here is VERY fantastical it could I'd argue be immagined and someone could therefore make a construct of it. if your issue is with the rediculousness of adding so many half templates then if you look in SS about this situation it states that the half templates become the correct corresponding fraction. adding the effigy template to an allready templated creature is completely legal. The problem is that it ISN'T a creature; it's an augmented creature, or an altered creature. There are no rules dictating how to add those templates with a construct, because like it or not, that is exactly what you are doing. No I am not adding those templates to the construct Im making a construct of a creature with those templates. SS specifically states that any number of templates could be added to a creature. as I am keeping to the requirements of each and every template I add I am working within the rules. I have shown you were it says I may add any number of templates to a creature. If you can show me where it says I cant add an effigy template to a dragon (the final type of the creature before I add the effigy template) I will gadly retract the build.
AKABetina 11-08-05, 03:14 AM	VagueZ is completely correct. I am not adding these templates to an effigy. the type requirements would not be met for many of the templates that way. what I am doing is making an effigy of a warbeast, woodling, magebred, void mind, half-golem flesh, half-golem clay, half-golem stone, half-golem iron, winged, insectile, multiheaded(lernaean) X3 extra, feral, half-troll, spell warped, half Black dragon, half Blue dragon, half Green dragon, half Red dragon, half White dragon, half Brass dragon, half Bronze dragon, half Copper dragon, half Gold dragon, half Silver dragon, paragon, dire tiger. If we are agreed that while VERY VERY VERY unlikley such a creature could exist according to RAW then adding the effigy template to it by making an effigy of such a creature should be legal as well. the description of what effigy can be added to mentions only types and by the time I add the effigy template the type is still legal. I also checked to make sure that there was no reference to actually having seen the type of creature one makes. while the creature being made here is VERY fantastical it could I'd argue be immagined and someone could therefore make a construct of it. if your issue is with the rediculousness of adding so many half templates then if you look in SS about this situation it states that the half templates become the correct corresponding fraction. adding the effigy template to an allready templated creature is completely legal. No I am not adding those templates to the construct Im making a construct of a creature with those templates. SS specifically states that any number of templates could be added to a creature. as I am keeping to the requirements of each and every template I add I am working within the rules. I have shown you were it says I may add any number of templates to a creature. If you can show me where it says I cant add an effigy template to a dragon (the final type of the creature before I add the effigy template) I will gadly retract the build. Those templates are added to the creature, and the Effigy template is added last; the templates are *STILL* being added to the base creature; in essence, you are making a creature and putting those templates on in the end. The point remains that the mechanics are not listed ANYWHERE for applying templates in that manner; the creature is a dire tiger... the min-max theory creature you listed, sans Effigy, is not a creature; it is a creature with templates... there is a difference. My issue isn't the number of templates; my issue is that there is no mechanical allowance for crafting a construct with templates, especially not in the effigy style. It is that a half-dragon dire tiger isn't a creature; it is a templated creature. While any number of templates may be added to a creature, they don't create a new creature... THAT is the issue. They may change the type that the creature is (from animal to dragon, for instance), but they do *not* become a NEW creature. You are still operating from the "it doesn't expressly forbid it, so it is allowed" logical flaw... the greater point is that there is no mechanical description allowing templates (other than effigy) to be added to the creature in question; you aren't adding it to a creature in your example... you are adding templates to a creature, and lastly applying effigy; that isn't the same thing.
deathwishjoe 11-08-05, 03:43 AM	lets try and just simplify the problem a bit. I will go through the relevent steps one by one untill the creature is created and lists the rules and pages where the step Im taking comes from. for this example I will make a half red dragon, effigy diretiger. we start off with a diretiger. found here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direTiger.htm then according to page 143 of the savage species book under the heading of "order" we add the first template. I choose the half dragon tempate found here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm. as a dire tiger constitutes any living coporeal creature this addition is legal. this addition changes the type to dragon instead of animal. next as I pointed out from the previous paragraph we add the next template chosen as is stated in savage species on page 143 under order. I choose the add the effigy template. Effigy is legal as it states that it can be added to any corporeal aberration... dragon.... (refered to hereafter as the base creature) I'm not sure how much more specific you want the rules to be in this matter. from where I'm sitting it comes right out and says to me what I'm doing is legal. what more do you want?
AKABetina 11-08-05, 04:30 AM	*sigh* The problem is that you are using an augmented creature, not a creature. I have no problem with the addition of templates; templates are great and all that. You can have every template you listed (other than effigy) on a dire tiger for min-max purposes and RAW theory; there is no problem with that. They can be added on in any legal order, and it's *FINE*. The *PROBLEM* is that they don't make a New Creature. A Dire Tiger is a creature; a half-red dragon Dire Tiger is an augmented Dire Tiger... it isn't something that can be made into an effigy, because you don't have a starting creature to work with. Effigy isn't simply another template; it has a set process for making it happen. You don't add it on to an augmented creature; you add it to a creature. Your argument is akin to suggesting that you can polymorph into the creature you listed; if that were the case, every minmax theory would have such monstrosities listed. But the fact is that a templated creature is not a new creature. The argument isn't against template stacking in general; it is that an effigy is a created thing, not simply a natural creature that could indeed have such templates added onto it. There are no rules for adding those templates to a creature that you are making.
deathwishjoe 11-08-05, 05:13 AM	if polymorph didnt refer to alter self and if alter self didnt specifically forbid changing into creatures with a template then yes you could change into this creature. The *PROBLEM* is that they don't make a New Creature. again I refer you to page 143 of the savage species book under the heading of "order" 3 paragraphs down. it states "apply the first template to create a 'new' base creature." I'd also like to refer you to the description of the effigy in the complete arcane book on page 152. notice the complete lack of references to the word creature in the paragraph stating what the effigy template may be added to. it only references various types that the template may be applied to. if you had a desk lamp with the type aberration according to that paragraph you could apply the effigy template to it. the fact that Im using an "augmented creature" is irrelevent as long as it has one of the listed types. You can have every template you listed (other than effigy) on a dire tiger for min-max purposes and RAW theory; there is no problem with that. They can be added on in any legal order, and it's *FINE*. I dont see what makes effigy any different then any other template. in fact that it doesnt use the word creature when refering to what it may be applied to seems to make it different from most of the templates I've used as many of them DO refer to the word creature when describing what they may be applied to. if anything one would not be able to apply say the half dragon template onto an allready templated creature as its description says it must be applied to a creature whereas I could apply effigy to a halfdragon diretiger if I chose to as effigy doesnt refer to the word creature. A Dire Tiger is a creature; a half-red dragon Dire Tiger is an augmented Dire Tiger it seems to me that your misunderstanding what happens when one adds a template to a creature. wehn one adds a template to a creature some of them gain the augmented subtype. they still count as creatures and still have the same type (unless changed by the template). In the back of the PHB it defines a creature as being "a living or otherwise active being, not an object." as a half red dragon dire tiger is a living or otherwise active being and is not an object it is a creature.
AKABetina 11-08-05, 05:49 AM	"An effigy uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities..." My reference to augmented is more in an English sense than a D&D sense; feel free to replace it with altered, embelished, or what have you. Note that MM 3.5 makes a distinction between templated creatures and base creatures (page 291); effigys specifically use the base creature's statistics and special abilities, and MM definitions trump the 3.25 Savage Species. Given that effigy must be the last non-aquired template added to the creature, most of those are removed, and most of the aquired templates have very specific ways they can be applied to creatures. Note that while the Monster Manual says you can apply any number of templates (inherited always before aquired), it doesn't say that it changes to a new BASE creature.
LordofProcrastination 11-08-05, 09:35 AM	First up for scrutiny, The Silly Literalist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7682928&postcount=162) All in all, I like the flavor. Wise use of Single Attribute Dependence, I'd say. There are a few qualms, though, that would help out if you could clarify/correct, Lusden Veharo: In the AC section, the Silly Literalist forgets that s/he is Huge, and is somewhat easier than normal to hit (-2 AC). Have you accounted for the fact that activating your items/scrolls/powerstones generally requires a standard action each? This would expand the preparation time and cut down on the available duration of each spell for in-challenge use. Caster Level disparity. In your price listings, some of the items are listed at minimal CL/ML, yet in your challenge-results calculations, they appear as if they are operating at maximum caster level. Brambles is a good example of this. I'm not certain if it's fair to obtain the +2 to hit bonus from being invisible. Why? Because it assumes that the target of the attack is either 1) a "sighted creature" and/or 2) the target is incapable of seeing invisible things. These are both false assumptions in that there is no target creature to begin with -- only a desire for capability of attaining such an attack bonus. It seems awkward to start automatically assuming benefit from highly circumstantial bonuses. To fully account for such circumstances, we have to start positing a wide variety of assumptions which needlessly complicate the challenge. Custom item pricing is a little off in a few places. The Divine Power and Greater Invisibility items should be 156,800 gp. (4 Spell Level * 7 Caster Level * 2000 * 4 duration modifier) Activating all those power stones requires Use Psionic Device, not just Use Magic Device. The DC to use a power stone is 20+ML of power, so you'll need to obtain a consistent +39 bonus. With about +20 Cha, you're well on your way, but you should probably sink any leftover skill points you have into UPD. In any case, grap at least one rank in it so you can use it "trained." Good work. I'm sure we can iron out these little bumps. Dark_beebles and deathwishjoe, you're next!
Tempest Stormwind 11-08-05, 10:22 AM	"An effigy uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities..." My reference to augmented is more in an English sense than a D&D sense; feel free to replace it with altered, embelished, or what have you. Note that MM 3.5 makes a distinction between templated creatures and base creatures (page 291); effigys specifically use the base creature's statistics and special abilities, and MM definitions trump the 3.25 Savage Species. Given that effigy must be the last non-aquired template added to the creature, most of those are removed, and most of the aquired templates have very specific ways they can be applied to creatures. Note that while the Monster Manual says you can apply any number of templates (inherited always before aquired), it doesn't say that it changes to a new BASE creature. "Effigy" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin (hereafter referred to as the base creature) Every template uses 'base creature' as defined in its "Creating a [XXXX]" text. What is the base creature for one template is not the same as the base creature for another template. Subtypes do not change a creature's type, either, so Augmented or not doesn't matter unless the template specifically looks for it. An augmented animal is still a creature, and still an animal. So, we start with the dire tiger (animal). We apply Half Dragon, which RAW changes the dire tiger to a dragon (no augmented subtype), which works because animals are among the valid "base creatures" for Half Dragon. Now, I'll do a far simplified version here, since I'm running late -- we apply Effigy here. The half-dragon dire tiger is defined as the "base creature" here -- it has type Dragon, which is a valid choice. EVEN IF it had the Augmented subtype, this wouldn't change that it's a Dragon, and a valid subject for Effigy. 'Base Creature' is shorthand, defined uniquely in every template. Imagine how long the text would be if it were NOT used. "Speed: As the corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin. Attacks: An effigy retains all the natural attacks and weapon proficiencies of the corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin." See why we abbreviate?
Richmud 11-08-05, 10:46 AM	weapon finesse is a bonus feat for the nixie. it was errated at some point that the various 1hd monsters of types without full bab that are listed as having weapon finesse have it as a bonus feat. This is because they don't meet the +1 bab req of weapon finesse
deathwishjoe 11-08-05, 02:08 PM	LordofProcrastination I await your scrutiny. now on to AKABetina arguement against adding effigy to a tenplated creature. "An effigy uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities..." as Tempest Stormwind pointed out you'll notice it specifically defines what a base creature is at the begining of the effigy description. according to the wording there anytyhing we add the effigy template to that has a valid type is now considered the base creature. and will be called as such through out the description of how to make an effigy. hence the desk lamp with the aberration type that we try to apply the effigy template to is now refered to as the base creature. Note that MM 3.5 makes a distinction between templated creatures and base creatures (page 291); would you mind giving me a quote on where you see that? I've read through that page and dont find anything conclusive. the closest thing I can find to it doing so seems to be some flavor text stating that "a templated creature can represent a freak of nature..." here it doesnt seem to be distinguishing between templated creatures and not templated creatures mechanically but giving us an example of what a creature with a template is storyline wise.
AKABetina 11-08-05, 06:23 PM	The problem is still to be addressed of "Base creature" in 3.5; the half-dragon dire tiger isn't a base creature... Dire Tiger is. The half-dragon dire tiger is a templated creature; even if it is only mentioned a couple times in the MM, the distinction is made: templates (no matter how many templates they are), are added to a base creature... there are no limit to how many templates may be added to a base creature (MM page 293). Your logic says you are adding only 1 template to a creature; you are stating that a half-dragon dire tiger is a separate creature from a dire tiger, and that a fiendish half-dragon dire tiger is a separate creature from a half-dragon dire tiger. The problem is that both of those are dire tigers with templates; they are templated creatures, not base creatures themselves. The fiendish half-dragon dire tiger isn't a half-dragon dire tiger with a template; it is a dire tiger with 2 templates. You STILL have a base creature, and that is *ALL* that the effigy augments. It's not about the *TYPE* of creature; I don't have an issue with it being a dragon as opposed to an animal; the type change isn't the issue, and I already explained my error in using real-world English definition of "augmented" as opposed to the augmented type. The problem with the effigy, unique to the effigy, is that it isn't a rules loop that is being abused, it is a lack of mechanics to adding templates to such a creature. Dire Tiger is still a base creature that an effigy can augment; it isn't a templated creature. The rules should not have to specify that other templates cannot be added; the language already does that. A templated creature is not the same thing as a creature; it may be a new creature, but it's still a templated one. A fiendish, half-dragon, celestial, half celestial war beast dire tiger isn't a base creature, it is a templated creature. While the effigy may well be applied to it, the stats and so on would only apply to the Dire Tiger, if you are really going to get **** about the wording RAW aspect of it. Remember: MM trumps Savage Species, and the distinction between a templated creature and base creature, even if only in passing, is still made.
Tempest Stormwind 11-09-05, 12:29 AM	The problem is still to be addressed of "Base creature" in 3.5; the half-dragon dire tiger isn't a base creature... Dire Tiger is.Dire Tiger is the base creature for the half-dragon template. In the example of a "half-dragon dire tiger effigy", where Effigy is added last, the "Half-dragon dire tiger" is the base creature. Dragon (the Half-dragon Dire tiger's type) is a valid subject for the Effigy template. "BASE CREATURE" is shorthand, unique to each template, and defined in the template's beginning. Please reread my above post before continuing. The There is no grand distinction in the Monster Manual, since 'Base Creature' is a variable term. It's like adding a new stereo to your car, and then asking to get your car repainted. Under your argument, you cannot repaint your car, since it is not your car anymore (it is instead "your car plus stereo"). See how absurd this is?
deathwishjoe 11-09-05, 01:26 AM	the half-dragon dire tiger isn't a base creature... where are you getting your deffinition of a base creature. according to the effigy description anything your adding the effigy template to with the correct type is the base creature. do you have a deffinition that trumps the one in CA that applies to this situation. Your logic says you are adding only 1 template to a creature I'd like to ammend that statement to say that I am adding only one template to a creature at a time. you are stating that a half-dragon dire tiger is a separate creature from a dire tiger, and that a fiendish half-dragon dire tiger is a separate creature from a half-dragon dire tiger. arent they? they have different templates, different types and they even look differently. according to leibniz's law if two things have different attributes then they are different. The problem is that both of those are dire tigers with templates; but different templates and therefore different creatures. they are templated creatures, not base creatures themselves again where are you getting your deffinition of base creature. it seems your using the "real word english version" of base creature and not the game mechanic listed with the effigy description or actually any template. A templated creature is not the same thing as a creature; when I add a template to a creature does it cease to fullfill the deffinition of what a creature is deffined to be in the back of the PHB? is it no longer "a living or otherwise active being, not an object." it seems that the bases of your arguement is that effigy can only be added to an unaltered creature and not an allready templated creature. and the reason you believe this is because the discriptio of effigy refers to a base creature? is this correct?
AKABetina 11-09-05, 02:57 AM	Dire Tiger is the base creature for the half-dragon template. In the example of a "half-dragon dire tiger effigy", where Effigy is added last, the "Half-dragon dire tiger" is the base creature. Dragon (the Half-dragon Dire tiger's type) is a valid subject for the Effigy template. "BASE CREATURE" is shorthand, unique to each template, and defined in the template's beginning. Please reread my above post before continuing. The There is no grand distinction in the Monster Manual, since 'Base Creature' is a variable term. It's like adding a new stereo to your car, and then asking to get your car repainted. Under your argument, you cannot repaint your car, since it is not your car anymore (it is instead "your car plus stereo"). See how absurd this is? In the world of real-world English, you are correct; it is quite absurd. In the world of RAW, it is not absurd; it is accurate. It would be more like trying to get your car repaired on warranty after you make an alteration; it is no longer the car that was sold to you. Their warranty would cover the expenses of the original car, not the altered one. Now, realistically, and for almost all purposes in life, it's the same car-- with a stereo. But for **** rules linguistics, it isn't. If you plan on using RAW to its fullest extent, and abuse loopholes, then at least be consistant in linguistic interpretation. The "adding a template" says any number of templates can be added to a creature... the language in that section includes "templated creature" and "base creature". There is only one base creature; there can, by definition, be only one base creature. However often it is altered, there is one base creature. The question of pure RAW has been raised numeous times, and the absurdity of it has been pointed out, and while I recognize that the purpose of this exercise is RAW sans intent, the RAW definitions are there, and while a reasonable person will say, "why, yes, you can add multiple templates that have stacking effects because otherwise multiple templates (a theoretically limitless prospect), would be useless," that is a reasonable, and not literal interpretation. Even with an acquired template, the BASE creature does not change; the creature a template is applied to may change, but the BASE creature is a single, unchanging creature. Even if Half-Red Dragon is applied to a dire tiger, the Dire Tiger is still the BASE creature. Abusing the rules is fun; I've enjoyed Snow's Cheater of Mystra, the nano-bot abuse, and most of the entries in this thread. It is a great theory exercise. The problem is that if you are going to be ultra-literalistic, you need to do it the whole way through... Caelic nicely defeated Mommy on that point with the Precocious Apprentice debate, by using ultra-literalistic interpretation. And here, there is the problem of, ultra-literalisticly, the distinction between a base creature and templated one; even if it is in passing, the distinction is made in one of the *CORE* books, which trumps Savage Species. But this being the CO boards, I've noticed that reason is very rarely listened to; logic is taken in doses only so far as it goes to break the rules, and if there is any possible variance in interpretation (however dubious it may be), the most powerful rout is almost always chosen. Which is why it is so damned hard to get non-COers to take ANYTHING found here seriously.
deathwishjoe 11-09-05, 03:29 AM	heres some interesting snipits from the SRD on WOTC website (the most accurate SRD available). bold is my additions "In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. (notice there is no reference to base creature there. my version of the MM doesnt have that ether. but I do see that AKABetina when quoting the paragraph added the word base ) To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add." "READING A TEMPLATE A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature." this seems to be the MM version of a deffinition of a "base creature" since AKABetina hasn't gotten around yet to showing where his deffinition of "base creature" comes from. as we add one emplate at a time once we add the half dragon template to the dire tiger the halfdragon diretiger now exists and is therefore an existing creature. thus the existing creature (halfdragon diretiger) is now considered the base creature. But this being the CO boards, I've noticed that reason is very rarely listened to; logic is taken in doses only so far as it goes to break the rules, and if there is any possible variance in interpretation (however dubious it may be), the most powerful rout is almost always chosen. I consider myself a reasonable man and there have been many builds I have had to abandon because they just werent supported by RAW. For instance the legion build created by TG doesnt work. it essentially kills the character and replaces him with two oozes. according to a litteral adherance to RAW this is what happens. I admit it. its rediculus and counter intuitive but its the way it is and I respect Caelic for pointing it out. one certainly cannot abuse the rules in our favor and then ignore them when they dont support our super powered builds. but in this particular case EVERYTHING I've read screams the opposite of what your saying to me.
Squirrelloid 11-09-05, 03:29 AM	AKABetina, you're wrong. Base Creature is $BaseCreature, a variable that is taken by the template which spits out $Template $BaseCreature. Any creature can be taken as a base creature so long as it meets the requirements given by the template. A templated creature is a creature, thus included in the *any* creature statement. Official WotC supplements even have multiply templated creatures. (I've seen Fiendish and Celestial versions of already templated creatures at least, sorry i can't remember a specific citation for you). Who cares if the creature is already augmented? It is base relative to that template. Use of Base X is standard notation in rules to refer to 'the thing before we apply _this_ transformation to it', even beyond DND. Note thats before the modification in question, not before *all* modifications. Its like a suite of programs which pass $x around. $x's base value for a program is what $x is when the program gets it initially. So if $x -> S -> $x $x -> T -> $x $x -> U -> $x Where S, T, and U are programs or algorithms, $x does not have to equal $x between steps (eg, can be 0 going into S, 3 from S to T, and "Bob" from T to U and "False" after U), however, base $x with respect to T is 3, while it is "Bob" for U. Templates work just like that, they take the creature $x in whatever form it is (assuming $x qualifies for the template), and spit out a new $x thats a modification of the old $x. But $x is still a viable candidate for other templates after modification by a template.
AKABetina 11-09-05, 05:47 AM	AKABetina, you're wrong. Base Creature is $BaseCreature, a variable that is taken by the template which spits out $Template $BaseCreature. Any creature can be taken as a base creature so long as it meets the requirements given by the template. A templated creature is a creature, thus included in the *any* creature statement. Official WotC supplements even have multiply templated creatures. (I've seen Fiendish and Celestial versions of already templated creatures at least, sorry i can't remember a specific citation for you). Who cares if the creature is already augmented? It is base relative to that template. Use of Base X is standard notation in rules to refer to 'the thing before we apply _this_ transformation to it', even beyond DND. Note thats before the modification in question, not before *all* modifications. Its like a suite of programs which pass $x around. $x's base value for a program is what $x is when the program gets it initially. So if $x -> S -> $x $x -> T -> $x $x -> U -> $x Where S, T, and U are programs or algorithms, $x does not have to equal $x between steps (eg, can be 0 going into S, 3 from S to T, and "Bob" from T to U and "False" after U), however, base $x with respect to T is 3, while it is "Bob" for U. Templates work just like that, they take the creature $x in whatever form it is (assuming $x qualifies for the template), and spit out a new $x thats a modification of the old $x. But $x is still a viable candidate for other templates after modification by a template. I agree that intuitively, logically, and by intent of the rules, you are 100% correct as far as what a "base creature" means for purposes of templates. I disagree that this is a RAW abusable loop; there are no mechanics for altering the base creature prior to Effigy; there is specific language stating what, in the MM, a "base creature" means, and that any number of templates may be added to a creature-- acquired or inheriated, meaning that the base creature does not change. While logically, and certainly in any game setting, template stacking would apply for each creature, in a strict literalism sense, they just plain don't.
AKABetina 11-09-05, 06:00 AM	[QUOTE=deathwishjoe] this seems to be the MM version of a deffinition of a "base creature" since AKABetina hasn't gotten around yet to showing where his deffinition of "base creature" comes from.QUOTE] Monster Manual, page 293. All templates are added to a base creature, period. A fiendish half-red dragon dire tiger isn't a half-red dragon dire tiger with a single template, it's a dire tiger with 2 templates. Which is fine, and each is applied one at a time. However, under "Adding a template step by step", it references the "base creature". Even with multiple templates, they are still modifying the "base creature"... the additional templates don't make it a new creature, just a modified old creature. Again, the issue isn't the real-world logic; it's the RAW logic... and if one gets to intent to avoid the analities of strict RAW, then one is ignoring the clear intent that constructs are not made with dozens and dozens of templates pre-applied.
Rigeld 11-09-05, 08:55 AM	this seems to be the MM version of a deffinition of a "base creature" since AKABetina hasn't gotten around yet to showing where his deffinition of "base creature" comes from.[QUOTE] Monster Manual, page 293. All templates are added to a base creature, period. A fiendish half-red dragon dire tiger isn't a half-red dragon dire tiger with a single template, it's a dire tiger with 2 templates. Which is fine, and each is applied one at a time. However, under "Adding a template step by step", it references the "base creature". Even with multiple templates, they are still modifying the "base creature"... the additional templates don't make it a new creature, just a modified old creature. Some templates say: Same as base creature for various things. According to you, I could add a bunch of say.. -CON stuff, undead templates, and then one of the Same as base creature for CON, and have a normal con again. note: idhmbwm so I have no idea what templates I could work to do this, but thatd be a fun thing to do.
michael_noah 11-09-05, 09:46 AM	It is painfully obvious which interpretation is correct. Look at the quote from the SRD: "In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. (notice there is no reference to base creature there. my version of the MM doesnt have that ether. but I do see that AKABetina when quoting the paragraph added the word base ) To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add." Note that it even says that a template might make the creature ineligible for a later template. The only way that is possible is if a later template is applied to the already templated creature (which is the base creature for this later template).
Lusden Veharo 11-09-05, 10:51 AM	Could somebody, even if it's not LoP, please tear apart The Silly Literalist for rules violations? Also, could they confirm that I have, in fact, reached 100 in all possible attributes-I can add a CL 7 Stoneskin to bring damage taken to 100, too-in the process?
Tempest Stormwind 11-09-05, 11:11 AM	[QUOTE=AKABetina] Some templates say: Same as base creature for various things. According to you, I could add a bunch of say.. -CON stuff, undead templates, and then one of the Same as base creature for CON, and have a normal con again. note: idhmbwm so I have no idea what templates I could work to do this, but thatd be a fun thing to do. Take a squirrel. Add the Skeleton template. You now have an undead Skeleton Squirrel. Now, add Magebred, which requires an animal. (part of it also raises Con.) Can we do this, AKABetina? If so, what happens? Under your logic, we can, since the base creature is a squirrel and you can add any number of templates. It also gains the bonus to Con, despite not having one. Under ANYONE ELSE'S logic, you cannot, since the base creature is an undead Skeleton Squirrel. See the problem? YOU DID NOT READ MY POST ABOVE (#185) WHEN YOU REPLIED TO ME PREVIOUSLY. IT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES THAT, ACCORDING TO THE RULES AS WRITTEN, "BASE CREATURE" IS DEFINED BY EACH GIVEN TEMPLATE, NOT THE MONSTER MANUAL.
AKABetina 11-09-05, 02:28 PM	[QUOTE=Rigeld] Take a squirrel. Add the Skeleton template. You now have an undead Skeleton Squirrel. Now, add Magebred, which requires an animal. (part of it also raises Con.) Can we do this, AKABetina? If so, what happens? Under your logic, we can, since the base creature is a squirrel and you can add any number of templates. It also gains the bonus to Con, despite not having one. Under ANYONE ELSE'S logic, you cannot, since the base creature is an undead Skeleton Squirrel. See the problem? YOU DID NOT READ MY POST ABOVE (#185) WHEN YOU REPLIED TO ME PREVIOUSLY. IT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES THAT, ACCORDING TO THE RULES AS WRITTEN, "BASE CREATURE" IS DEFINED BY EACH GIVEN TEMPLATE, NOT THE MONSTER MANUAL. I did read your post; your post is right logically, intuitively, and all that, but not RAW. That's the problem; you add each template to the base creature. Note that you could not do Magebred to a Skeleton, even by this, as the type has changed; even if it's to the base animal, it's type has changed because of the order you added the templates. A magebred -> skeleton works. But here comes the issue of RAW vs. Actual Reason. Actual Reason is where RAI comes into play, and even when it makes so much sense that the RAW becomes idiotic, the RAW exploitation is what is used here. Take Urnsk's Chameleon: the RAW says it cannot be used to meet prereqs for feats or PrCs... but it doesn't say, specifically, that PrCs cannot be used to improve Chameleon caster level. Clearly the intent of the rules, the RAI, indicates that it cannot. But by RAW, it does. The difference is that this is more subtle, and the rules themselves, AS WRITTEN, defy reason, even within their own language. But simply because "Well this makes more sense than what they say, because their wording is incomplete" means that it affects game play and any reasonable build (based 90% on RAW, and 10% on RAI to overcome WotCizations), would certainly follow a different definition of "base creature".
Scion of Coldshard 11-09-05, 02:35 PM	So what you are saying is that you apply all templates to the base creature modified by any templates that it has on already? I dont see how that is different than simply adding templates in so long as the templated creature qualifies. RAW certainly says to say that you can add a template to any creature who qualifies. I dont see the line you are trying to draw as actually being in the RAW anywhere unless certain sections are grossly misread and/or ignored.
Rigeld 11-09-05, 03:26 PM	[QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind] I did read your post; your post is right logically, intuitively, and all that, but not RAW. That's the problem; you add each template to the base creature. Note that you could not do Magebred to a Skeleton, even by this, as the type has changed; even if it's to the base animal, it's type has changed because of the order you added the templates. A magebred -> skeleton works. But here comes the issue of RAW vs. Actual Reason. Actual Reason is where RAI comes into play, and even when it makes so much sense that the RAW becomes idiotic, the RAW exploitation is what is used here. Take Urnsk's Chameleon: the RAW says it cannot be used to meet prereqs for feats or PrCs... but it doesn't say, specifically, that PrCs cannot be used to improve Chameleon caster level. Clearly the intent of the rules, the RAI, indicates that it cannot. But by RAW, it does. The difference is that this is more subtle, and the rules themselves, AS WRITTEN, defy reason, even within their own language. But simply because "Well this makes more sense than what they say, because their wording is incomplete" means that it affects game play and any reasonable build (based 90% on RAW, and 10% on RAI to overcome WotCizations), would certainly follow a different definition of "base creature". Mummified Multiheaded Squirrel. Mummy kills the con. Multiheaded adds 2 con per head. Apply Mummy first, then Multiheaded, and according to you, the squirrel get its con back, +2 for the extra head. But... undead cant have Con.. but this one does.. but it cant... <head explodes> Also, page 143 of Savage Species says "Apply the first template completely to create a "new" base creature." (emphasis mine) If that doesnt say that each template is a new base creature.... I dont know what does.
deathwishjoe 11-09-05, 10:37 PM	Also, page 143 of Savage Species says "Apply the first template completely to create a "new" base creature." (emphasis mine) If that doesnt say that each template is a new base creature.... I dont know what does. before AKABetina steps in I'm going to say his arguement as this isn't the first time the issue has been brought up. the description in the 3.5 MM trumps the description in the 3.0 SS book. and now to reply to AKABetina's remarks on my last post. Monster Manual, page 293. All templates are added to a base creature, period. Not only is this not a definition of base creature but I've gone through page 293 of the MM and found no such statement infered or otherwise. If you can find a statement in one of the books that defines "base creature" according to how your interpreting it and not how it is stated in each and every template discription or the definition found on page 291 of the MM under the heading of "reading a template" I'd be much more likley to support your interpretation of the rules. From where I'm siting the rules state clearly that Base creature is whatever your adding the current template to. so if I add feindish to a halfdragon diretiger then the base creature is a halfdragon diretiger. dire tiger may have a template on it allready but that is irrelevent with how the rules are worded. they only deffine the base creature as being whatever your adding the current template to. heres a few quotes from the hypertext SRD. "Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature) when adding the lycanthrope template to a paragon storm gaint the base creature is paragon storm giant "Celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). when adding the Celestial template to a paragon storm gaint the base creature is paragon storm giant. "Fiendish" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin of nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). “Phrenic” is an inherited template that can be added to any nonmindless creature that does not already have the psionic subtype (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”). "Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature I just dont see where your coming from every description of what a base creature is states that its whatever your adding the template to. you cant ignore that you've allready added templates to the creature or else your not adding the templates to the same creature any more. as templates changes the creature it becomes a new creature. dire tiger is not the same creature as the half dragon dire tiger and a half dragon dire tiger is a different creature the a celestial halfdragon dire tiger. as templates are added one at a time one must take into account previously added templates or else your not adding the current template to the same creature as you had before.
LordofProcrastination 11-09-05, 10:49 PM	Lively discussion, eh. :D Lusden Veharo -- Have you had a chance to make corrections to your Silly Literalist based on my comments back in post 184 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7699576&postcount=184)? I get the feeling from your last post that you might have missed my analysis in the flurry of controversy going on. Dark_beebles -- The entry you sent me by PM is riddled with somewhat shaky assumptions. It would probably help if you typed out a formatted entry for this thread and check your math in the process. Here are my initial notes, though: Skills: The bard spell you allude to is probably Improvisation, which is limited to providing not only a limited number of bonuses, but maxes out at 1/2 caster level. Also, your suggested use of Divine Insight is an iffy tactic because said spell is expended upon a single use and the point of the 100^10 challenge is to maintain consistent capability. You'd have to cast it from the wand as a standard action every round, which would probably impede your ability to meet the other requirements of the challenge. Damage: Your tricksy scheme for damage may very well work, but you face the same difficulties of limited standard actions per round to produce said damage presented above. Perhaps Quickening your damage sources somehow could help. Your hinted-at method of binding creatures for item-cost reduction is unfamiliar to me. Please elaborate source and technique. To be frank, there are an awful lot of gaping holes in capability. Enough for me to say that the concept doesn't need fine-tuning; rather, a thorough overhaul or expansion is in order. If you have the time, by all means, you can probably make the character work with some effort -- but I'm afraid that I lack the time and desire to do it all for you. deathwishjoe and the rest of the template-discussing-crowd: I'm going to look long and hard at this issue and try to post a thorough text-supported analysis soon. My current impression of the state of the argument is that adding the effigy template to a templated creature should follows the usual rules for adding multiple templates to a creature -- if the type (and other miscellaneous) requirements are met, it's legal. "Base creature" is a variable term (given its constant redefinition in template descriptions), and the Monster Manual pg 293 text does not contradict this fact. More to follow. Keep up the good work!
SoulGamit 11-10-05, 12:44 AM	The Effigy template can be added to templated creatures. The word "Any" in the part of its description indirectly states so, since the word "any" is inclusive of templated creatures. Also, the Effigy does not say it can be added to any "base creature" but any creature of whatever types, which is then reffered to as the base creature. before that line the term base creature has no meaning or, if it does, it's meaning changes. Take a squirrel. Add the Skeleton template. You now have an undead Skeleton Squirrel. Now, add Magebred, which requires an animal. (part of it also raises Con.) Can we do this, AKABetina? If so, what happens? No, the squirrle is no longer an animal, it is undead. Even under AKABetina's logic, the creature's type still changes. This, of course, is assuming magebred is an aquired template. If it's an inherited one then magebred is added first, as aquired templates (which skeleton is, I believe) always come after inherited templates. Also, undead have a con of -- not 0. -- denotes that it has no constitution, it simply does not exist. A constitution of 0 does not mean that, the number 0 is merely a refference point, a number that has no meaning in itself but is instead there to give meanings to other numbers. Since undead have no constitution, as in, it doesn't exist, it can not be raised or lowered. I also believe that this is said somewere in the rules, that stats of -- can't be altered.
AKABetina 11-11-05, 05:32 AM	From where I'm siting the rules state clearly that Base creature is whatever your adding the current template to. so if I add feindish to a halfdragon diretiger then the base creature is a halfdragon diretiger. dire tiger may have a template on it allready but that is irrelevent with how the rules are worded. they only deffine the base creature as being whatever your adding the current template to. Most simply, it stems from this: any number of templates may be added to a creature. If each template makes a creature a new creature, then only one template can be added to a creature, as each template makes a new creature. 1 can only be added to 1 one time; after that, you are adding 1 to 2. Now, 3, 4, 5, or 6 can each be added to 1, and you will have a new number. Similarly, if the number of templates is theoretically limitless, then they must all modify the original creature... 3 templates is adding 3 to 1, not 1 to 1, then 1 to 2, then 1 to 3. The analogy breaks down; simple addition doesn't have more complex definitions, or varying definitions, or inconsistant grammar. There is no order of operations, where this whole debate revolves around it, and I'm frankly too tired to make a more apt example at the moment (not that it is relevant, but bronchaitis that lingers for 3 weeks absolutely blows). But I'm also tired of going in circles on this; LoP will make his decision, I've made my case, y'all have made yours, and while I will continue (barring a better argument), to disagree with the "go ahead" group, for purposes of this thread, I'm done discussing it... because really, in the greater scope of things, it doesn't matter, and in the more minor scop of things (that being this thread), LoP's opinion is the only one that matters.
Rigeld 11-11-05, 09:04 AM	Most simply, it stems from this: any number of templates may be added to a creature. If each template makes a creature a new creature, then only one template can be added to a creature, as each template makes a new creature. 1 can only be added to 1 one time; after that, you are adding 1 to 2. Now, 3, 4, 5, or 6 can each be added to 1, and you will have a new number. Similarly, if the number of templates is theoretically limitless, then they must all modify the original creature... 3 templates is adding 3 to 1, not 1 to 1, then 1 to 2, then 1 to 3. I guess I just dont understand where youre coming from with this point of view. MM 293 says theres theoretically no limit. It also says that you have to make sure that the creature still qualifies for every template you put on it (IE for all those templates that change stats, make sure that the next one doesnt have a stat requirement thats too high). As far as your first paragraph.. I apply a X template to Bob. I now have a X Bob. As long as X Bob meets the requirements (new creature and all) why would I not be able to apply template Y? X Bob is an existing creature; I just created him. That makes him a base creature for future templates.
Lusden Veharo 11-11-05, 09:45 AM	Q: Do I have to get exactly 100? Can I go over? A: Yes, you can go over, silly literalist. "The Silly Literalist" Half-Fey(1)/Nixie (3)/Paladin 2/Cleric 1/Sorceror 7/Arcane Duelest 3/Witch Hunter 2/Risen Martyr 1 Cleric domains: Celerity and any; I prefer Luck I have 23 turning attempts. I use Shapechange to turn into a Nymph, then Polymorph to turn into a Dire Bear. Starting stats are 8/8/8/14/16/18 before racial mods; after, they raise to 4/16/6/16/20/30. Final Stats: Strength: 31 (Dire Bear) +3 (Inherent, Wish) +8 (Size, Animal Growth) +6 (Enhancement, Divine Power) +2 (Morale, Elation) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) +20 (Unnamed, Psychofeedback) =74 Dexterity: 13 (Dire Bear) +2 (Morale, Elation) +4 (Enhancement, Divine Agility) -2 (Size, Animal Growth) +2 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) -1 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =18 Constitution: 19 (Dire Bear) +4 (Size, Animal Growth) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) -7 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =20 Intelligence: 14 (Point Buy) +2 (Racial, Nixie) +3 (Age) +2 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) -11 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =10 Wisdom: 16 (Point Buy) +2 (Racial, Nixie) +2 (Racial, Half-Fey) +3 (Age) +6 (Enhancement, Periapt of Wisdom) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) -1 (Ability Burn, Psychofeedback) =32 Charisma: 18 (Point Buy) +8 (Racial, Nixie) +4 (Racial, Half-Fey) +3 (Age) +4 (Inherent, Tome of Leadership) +6 (Enhancement, Cloak of Charisma) +2 (Unnamed, Risen Martyr) +5 (Unnamed, Levels) +4 (Unnamed, Greater Visage of the Diety) =54 Preparations: Burn 1 Dexterity, 7 Constitution, 11 Intelligence and 1 Wisdom to gain +20 Strength using Psychofeedback Feats: B Dodge B Weapon Finesse 1 Nymph's Kiss 3 Divine Might 6 Mobility 9 Track 12 Nimbus of Light 15 Arcane Strike Starting Languages are Aquan, Celestial, Common, Elven, Sylvan Skills: Knowledge: Arcana, Perform (cc), Tumble (cc), UMD (cc), UPD (cc) are taken at every level up to 10. After that, Jump replaces Tumble and Perform. I have enough skill points to max UMD and UPD (though both are cross-class) and Jump, and that's all that matters. One of my third level spells is Magic Circle Against Evil, taken at sixth level as a Sorceror. 1) 100 AC 10 Base +22 Nymph +22 Risen Martyr +22 Arcane Duelist +09 Natural +07 Insight, Defensive Precognition +04 Armor, +2 Twilight Leather Armor +04 Dexterity +01 Dodge feat +01 Dodge, Haste -02 Size (Huge) =100 2) +100 to hit This one took most of my effort to reach. Here's all the bonuses that I've piled up: +16 BAB (Divine Power) +15 Dexterous Attack +32 Strength +10 Luck (Nature's Favor) +10 Morale (Nature's Avatar) +7 Insight (Offensive Precognition) +5 Enhancement on Weapon +4 Arcane Strike (4 spell levels) +1 Enchant Chosen Weapon (Arcane Duelist) +1 Competance from Graft Weapon +1 Haste -2 Size (Huge) = +100 3) Deals 100 damage average per round +32 Strength +22 Divine Might +10 Nature's Avatar +10 Nature's Favor +10 Arcane Strike (average) +10 Brambles +08 Offensive Prescience +07 Huge Club +06 Enhancement -15 Dexterous Attack = 100 If push comes to shove and I miss during the first two rounds, I'll simply delay moving away-only the round I have to move closer is at risk of missing entirely, and that round I have a reroll from the Luck domain. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Jump: +8 for base speed +2 for having 5 ranks in Tumble +20 for having 20 ranks in Jump +30 for the Jump spell +5 for a Ring of Jumping +32 for being really, really strong +4 for Greater Heroism -1 for an Armor Check Penalty = +100 Jump 5) 100 ft movement speed The Dire Bear has a base speed of 40 feet, which the Celerity domain changes to 50 feet. Greater Visage of the Diety gives me wings with a fly speed twice my normal movement speed, so my wings can haul me around at 100 feet a round. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves +22 Divine Grace +22 Nymph +22 Kami's Grace +10 Base +07 Insight, Defensive Precognition +05 Resistance, Vest of Resistance +04 Dexterity +04 Morale, Greater Heroism +04 Luck, Lucky Shoes = +100 7) 100 spell-levels castable Not counting the 0 level spells, I have: Cleric: 5 spell levels Sorceror: 95 spell levels For 100 total levels I can cast. Keeping the theme strong! I sacrifice 68 spell levels to Arcane Strike, and cast the spell Feather Fall 10 times during the challenge-I'm not using my Swift actions. 8) 100 hit points 16d12 hit dice = 104 hit points on average, plus 80 bonus hit points for high con and 11 for Heroism. 195 hit points total is greater than the 100 needed, sadly. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round I can pass the reflex save to avoid the 70 points of energy damage, and Shapechanging into a Nymph grants DR 10/Cold Iron. I therefore take 10 points of damage a round for a total of 170 before any spells. I'm using one of those: Stoneskin, cast by myself at caster level 7, to prevent 70 damage over the course of the challenge. Thus, I take 100 damage. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds A great many of these buffs will run out the round after the challenge is over, so I maintain these stats for 100 seconds. If any of these are wrong, please let me know so I can tweak them to exactly 100. I'm picky like that-I had this beating 100 on all of them nearly a full day before this post, the delay only because I wanted it exact. Power Up: Pull on all gear except the shield, cast Stoneskin at caster level 7, then activate the scrolls in the order they are listed, one a round. The final half dozen are done in animal form, but Use Magic Device never lists any restrictions on body parts or vocal cords needed-we're already tricking the item into working when it shouldn't, why should such silly things as hands and words be required? Wish is used to gain a +1 Inherent bonus to strength, and is used after I turn myself into an animal to remove any stacking questions. During the challenge: Round 2: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, put on shield. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 2: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move toward the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 3: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move away from the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Round 4: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Move action, move toward the enemy. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Rounds 5-11: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Swift Action, caster Feather Fall. Rounds 12-17: Free Action, Divine Might into the grafted arm. Standard action, belt them for 100 damage. Scrolls/Power Stones: Graft Weapon; ML 7; 525 gp Spikes; CL 20; 1500 gp Shapechange; CL 17; 3,825 gp Offensive Precognition; ML 19; 475 gp Offensive Prescience; ML 19; 475 gp Defensive Precognition; ML 19; 475 gp Heroism, Greater; CL 11; 1650 gp Jump; CL 9; 225 gp Polymorph; CL 12; 1200 gp Animal Growth; CL 9; 1125 gp Nature's Favor; CL 20; 1500 gp Nature's Avatar; CL 20; 4500 gp Wish; CL 17; 28,825 gp Wish; CL 17; 28,825 gp Wish; CL 17; 28,825 gp Psychofeedback; ML 20; 2500 gp Divine Agility; CL 19; 2,375 gp Greater Visage of the Diety; CL 18; 4,050 gp Total cost of scrolls: 112,875 gp Standard Magic Items: Tome of Leadership +4; 111,000 gp Periapt of Wisdom +6; 36,000 gp Cloak of Charisma +6; 36,000 gp Ring of Jumping; 2,500 gp +2 Twilight Wild Leather Armor; 36,160 gp Custom Magic Items: Ring of Resistance +5 As the cloak; 25,000 gp Skullcap of Magical Intuition This skullcap brings out latent talents when dealing with magical and psionic items. +10 Competance Bonus to Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device; 20,000 gp Muscle Belt Any cleric knowledgable about anatomy that wears this belt will be constantly under the effects of a Divine Power spell. Requires 10 ranks in Heal to use, Cleric only; 141,120 gp Topaz Ioun Stone This ioun stone helps keep its wearer out of the way of harm physical harm. +4 Luck bonus to Reflex saves; 64,000 gp Bracers of Activity When a cleric, strong of faith, wears these bracers, they fill him with energy and resolve. Elation, continuous; Cleric only; 33600 gp Mundane Items: 1,500 jade circlet for Shapechange Total Gold Spent: 619,755 gp First up for scrutiny, The Silly Literalist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7682928&postcount=162) All in all, I like the flavor. Wise use of Single Attribute Dependence, I'd say. There are a few qualms, though, that would help out if you could clarify/correct, Lusden Veharo: In the AC section, the Silly Literalist forgets that s/he is Huge, and is somewhat easier than normal to hit (-2 AC). Have you accounted for the fact that activating your items/scrolls/powerstones generally requires a standard action each? This would expand the preparation time and cut down on the available duration of each spell for in-challenge use. Caster Level disparity. In your price listings, some of the items are listed at minimal CL/ML, yet in your challenge-results calculations, they appear as if they are operating at maximum caster level. Brambles is a good example of this. I'm not certain if it's fair to obtain the +2 to hit bonus from being invisible. Why? Because it assumes that the target of the attack is either 1) a "sighted creature" and/or 2) the target is incapable of seeing invisible things. These are both false assumptions in that there is no target creature to begin with -- only a desire for capability of attaining such an attack bonus. It seems awkward to start automatically assuming benefit from highly circumstantial bonuses. To fully account for such circumstances, we have to start positing a wide variety of assumptions which needlessly complicate the challenge. Custom item pricing is a little off in a few places. The Divine Power and Greater Invisibility items should be 156,800 gp. (4 Spell Level * 7 Caster Level * 2000 * 4 duration modifier) Activating all those power stones requires Use Psionic Device, not just Use Magic Device. The DC to use a power stone is 20+ML of power, so you'll need to obtain a consistent +39 bonus. With about +20 Cha, you're well on your way, but you should probably sink any leftover skill points you have into UPD. In any case, grap at least one rank in it so you can use it "trained." Good work. I'm sure we can iron out these little bumps. Dark_beebles and deathwishjoe, you're next! 1) You're right, I did forget to include Huge on the AC, but that's all better now-I also forgot to include my natural armor bonus. I think I lost it somewhere-Deathless, maybe?-but Shapechange would bring it back, just like it brings back my Con score. 2) They may take standard actions to activate, but only the final three have a duration based on rounds/level. The rest are all minutes/level, and so they safely exceed the duration required by the challenge. Only the final three are limited, and those are all cast in sequential order right before the challenge begins. Also, I originally said I'd be activating them "one per round", so do you still have any concerns? 3) Also correct, so I'm thankful that I had excess cash to spend. 4) OK, I removed the bonus from Invisibility and tweaked around the numbers. Jump is a little less neat this way, sadly, but I'm not invisible anymore. 5) The prices are correct. It's (4 Spell Level * 7 Caster Level * 2000 * 4 duration modifier * .7 Sorceror only * .9 Requires skill ranks to use); you forgot the final part. I figured 10 ranks would be fitting, but I can go as high as needed due to a massive int score. 6) Gragh, I forgot that UMD and UPD aren't covered by transparency rules. Still, I have a vast fortune of skill points and +22 charisma, so I don't need much. Now, about the Half-Fey part being +2 LA: I know that now, but there's two things I need. First is the name of the +2 cha, -2 wis template out there-something about mages, I think. The next is to find a +1 LA template that gives +2 charisma. Edit: Thanks for updating in a timely fashion, Lusden Veharo. There are a few points still outstanding, though. Before in-game mechanics, though, could you please try to use the "edit" function instead of reposting everything for your revisions? It would really cut down on clutter if you could do that. Size AC modification looks good. However, there is now an un-labeled +2 AC bonus on your list. You are mostly correct about durations. However, you have forgotten that Brambles, is a round/level spell, and occurs way earlier in your casting routine. At current listings, it would run out before the challenge ends. You may have fixed some prices for the items based on increased CL/ML, but the listed caster levels still look a little akilter. To use a common example: Brambles is still at CL 5 in the item list, but you're still attributing a +10 bonus in the damage part of the challenge from Brambles. A new thought -- wouldn't your dire bear form assimilate and render nonfunctional the majority of your worn magic items? This is one of the tricky features of the Alter Self => Polymorph => Shapechange spell chain. Regarding templates/races from Dragon, I would advise against it. The rules limit material to that from "WotC Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Products." Dragon magazine is a Paizo product, even if it is "supported" by WotC. I'm sure you can find Charisma-boosting options that do not rely upon the sometimes-questionable material that arises from Dragon Magazine. Of course; I only reposted this time because the last post was several pages deep. Once I've got it all straight I'm going to replace the original with the fixed version. 1) Ick, you're correct. That bonus doesn't exist and wasn't used. 2) It's not that I forgot Brambles is round/level, it's that I used Spikes and wrote down Brambles. The price listed is for a third level spell, so all that needed changing was the name. 3) Amusingly, I fixed the price and forgot to change the listed caster level. All better. 4) I figure the following slots are usable for a bear: head, eyes, neck, belt, cape, armor (wild), arms, rings. Asuming I'm correct, all items now fit, and I have enough cash to unslot any remaining ones you object to. The shield is questionable enough in my mind to be removed, as well; it was a holdover from when I was going to use Divine Shield. As to Dragon-that's why I was checking. I don't receive the magazine, so I didn't know how far the Wizards affiliation goes. I still have 1 level to spend to gain 4 charisma, plus any new sources I can find.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-11-05, 10:15 AM	The Magic Blooded template is in Dragon 306, I believe.
Lusden Veharo 11-11-05, 10:23 AM	Hmm, OK. Two questions, then: Is Dragon a "+ All WotC Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Products", and is that a 3.0 or 3.5 issue? Yes, I really am that clueless about Dragon.
LordofProcrastination 11-11-05, 01:03 PM	Thanks for updating in a timely fashion, Lusden Veharo. There are a few points still outstanding, though. Before in-game mechanics, though, could you please try to use the "edit" function instead of reposting everything for your revisions? It would really cut down on clutter if you could do that. Size AC modification looks good. However, there is now an un-labeled +2 AC bonus on your list. You are mostly correct about durations. However, you have forgotten that Brambles, is a round/level spell, and occurs way earlier in your casting routine. At current listings, it would run out before the challenge ends. You may have fixed some prices for the items based on increased CL/ML, but the listed caster levels still look a little akilter. To use a common example: Brambles is still at CL 5 in the item list, but you're still attributing a +10 bonus in the damage part of the challenge from Brambles. A new thought -- wouldn't your dire bear form assimilate and render nonfunctional the majority of your worn magic items? This is one of the tricky features of the Alter Self => Polymorph => Shapechange spell chain. Regarding templates/races from Dragon, I would advise against it. The rules limit material to that from "WotC Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Products." Dragon magazine is a Paizo product, even if it is "supported" by WotC. I'm sure you can find Charisma-boosting options that do not rely upon the sometimes-questionable material that arises from Dragon Magazine.
Lusden Veharo 11-16-05, 12:45 AM	I've had everything fixed for a while now EXCEPT the Half-Fey template. I just can't find a way to get +4 charisma with a +1 level adjustment, despite my best efforts. Time to borrow splat books and start looking for magical bonuses.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-16-05, 09:50 AM	The Death-Touched race from Dragon 313 has +1 LA and +4 to Charisma, for starters.
Fwib 11-16-05, 03:20 PM	Does this:When you use two polymorph* spells in succession, do you keep any of the abilities gained from the first spell’s form? No. This falls into the category of “one effect makes another irrelevant” (see page 172 in the Player’s Handbook). A polymorphed elf wizard who then casts shapechange wouldn’t retain any of the abilities gained from polymorph—only the wizard’s original form (elf) and new form (from shapechange, the last spell cast) matter. *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self, polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).nerf too many 100^10 builds?
Lusden Veharo 11-16-05, 04:12 PM	Taeldrin, that fails both because I need a template (my race is Nixie) and because it's Dragon. With Dragon, I can use Magic-Blooded and I'm sure there's something else there with +2 cha for +1 LA. The recent FAQ can go [censored]; the new "rulings" aren't consistant with explicitly worded rules.
thorian 12-01-05, 09:26 PM	I've had everything fixed for a while now EXCEPT the Half-Fey template. I just can't find a way to get +4 charisma with a +1 level adjustment, despite my best efforts. Time to borrow splat books and start looking for magical bonuses. How about Star Elf from UE and Magic-Blooded (Spark) Template [Dragon Magazine #306, pg. 64]? That gives +4 CHA with no LA.
Fwib 12-02-05, 02:16 PM	The recent FAQ can go [censored]; the new "rulings" aren't consistant with explicitly worded rules.Agreed, other parts of the FAQ are blatant contradictions of rules - but how is the FAQ section I quoted above inconsistent?
PhaedrusXY 12-02-05, 02:45 PM	Does this:nerf too many 100^10 builds?It nerfs mine, but I'm sure as hell not redoing it. :D
thorian 01-14-06, 03:25 AM	Here is my entry for your consideration. I have tried to put together a simple character that meets the given criteria without resorting to infinite loops. Theyla Eseriel Race: Aasimar (Lesser Planetouched [PGtF 191]) Class: Cleric 19 / Marshal 1 (Marshal added last to avoid XP penalty, could have been done with Paladin 2 just as easily though.) Exp: 190,000 Deity: None Align: Neutral Good Gender: Female Size: Medium (5’6” 114 lbs.) Speed: 30 ft. Cash: 760,000 gp (max 190,000 gp per item) Attributes: BUY: (18 WIS, 18 CHA = 32 points) BUFFS: {Assimilate, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Elation, Giant Size (via Miracle), Girallon’s Blessing, Fuse Arms, Owl’s Insight, Righteous Aura, Visage of the Deity} Net P.F. Other STR 102(+51) 45(+17) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 32/GS, 2/morale(elation), 4/gb+fa DEX 39(+14) 27(+8) 0/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm, -2/GS, 2/morale(elation) CON 60(+25) 29(+9) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 12/GS INT 17(+3) 8(-1) 0/inherent, 0/enhancement, 3/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm WIS 46(+22) 18(+4) 5/inherent,10/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial CHA 51(+20) 18(+4) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial, 4/sacred(ra), 5/level Saving Throws: BUFFS: {Marshal aura, Mysticism Domain, Greater Heroism, Ruin Delver’s Fortune, Superior Resistance} Fort +107 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 25/con, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 20/insight=cha(rdf), 20/circ=cha(aura) Ref +50 = 5/clr17, 0/marshal1, 14/dex, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 1/haste Will +64 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 22/wis, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha Armor Class: BUFFS: {Divine Shield feat, Barkskin, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Giant Size, Mage Armor, Magic Vestment(x2), Sirine’s Grace} AC: 117 = 10/base, 14/dex, 6+20/shield+div.shield, 4/armor, 20/deflection=cha, 23+12+5/natural, -8/size, 1/haste HD: 19d8(=89)/cleric-19 + 1d8(=4)/marshal-1 HP: 593 (+76 Temp) = 93/classes + 500/con(25*20); Temp = 76/Nature’s Avatar, 20/Divine Power, 20/Greater Heroism Attacks: BUFFS: {Create Magic Tattoo, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Nature’s Avatar, Nature’s Favor, Precognition, Offensive} BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 = (BAB=20 with Divine Power) Attacks: +101/+101/+96/+91/+86 = 20/BAB, 51/str, -8/size, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 7/insight, 10/luck(nf), 1/haste, 2/invisible, 1/wf, 2/comp Damage: 6d6+101 [20/x2] = 76/str*1.5, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 10/luck(nf) Skills: Craft (drawing) 10 = 1/ranks, 3/int, 4/morale, 2/circumstance Jump [cc] 112 = 1/ranks, 51/str, 4/morale, 10/competence, 30/enhancement, 16/speed-70 Use Magic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Use Psionic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Feats: 01 Char 01 : Extend Spell 03 Char 03 : Persistent Spell 06 Char 06 : Divine Metamagic (persistent) 09 Char 09 : Divine Shield [CWar 106] add CHA to shield for 1 round per 2 char lvl 12 Char 12 : Weapon Focus (spear) 15 Char 15 : Divine Metamagic (extend) 18 Char 18 : whatever Class Abilities: Cleric 1 : Turn Undead, Domains (Mysticism [CDiv], Spell [PGtF]) Marshal 1 : Skill Focus (diplomacy), Minor Aura (demand fortitude) Cleric Spells of Note: Caster Level: 20 = 19/Cleric, 1/orange ioun stone Bonus Spells: based on 28 wisdom Spell Domain [PGtF]: You gain a +2 bonus on Concentration and Spellcraft checks. Mysticism Domain [CDiv]: Apply your Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws. 0: [6] 1: [5(3)+d] Mage Armor (spell domain) Conviction [Mini] +5 morale to saves 2: [5(2)+d] - Resist Energy (sonic) 3: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Create Magic Tattoo [PGtF] +2 competence to attacks) Celestial Aspect fly 100’ Elation, Extended [BoED] +2 morale to STR, DEX, +5 speed Fuse Arms [SavS] +4 to STR with Girallon’s Blessing Girallon’s Blessing [SavS] use with Fuse Arms Magic Vestment Refreshment [BoED] removes all non-lethal damage [b]4: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Jump [PHB] +30 enhancement to Jump skill) Magic Weapon, Greater 5: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (??) Divine Power, Extended Superior Resistance [SavS] +6 resistance to saves Vigor, Greater [CDiv] fast healing 4 6: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Draconic Polymorph [Draco]) Righteous Might, Etended [PHB] DR 9/evil - 7: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Sirine’s Grace [web] (Brd 4) AC gets +CHA deflection bonus) - 8: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Ruin Delver’s Fortune [web] (Brd 4) +CHA to a save as insight) - 9: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Heroism, Greater [PHB] (Brd 5) +4 morale to attacks, saves, skills) Miracle (Nature’s Favor [CDiv] (Drd 3) +10 luck to attack & damage) Miracle (Greater Invisibility [PHB] (Wiz 4) +2 attack) Miracle (Giant Size [CArc], Wu Jen 7) +32 STR, -2 DEX, +12 CON, +12 Natural Armor, -8 AC, -8 attack Visage of the Deity [CDiv] 4 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 INT, +4 WIS, +4 CHA, type=outsider Equipment: Price Name 137500 Manual of Bodily Health +5 137500 Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 137500 Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 137500 Tome of Understanding +5 8302 Spear +1, Sizing [CAdv] 0 Armor: none 15 Shield: buckler 55 Artisan’s Tools +2 circumstance to craft (drawing) 36000 Amulet of Health +6 36000 Gloves of Dexterity +6 36000 Cloak of Charisma +6 10000 Ring of Jumping, Improved +10 competence to Jump 1800 Quiver of Ehlonna (for staffs, rods, etc.) 30000 Ioun Stone, Orange Prism (+1 cl) why not? 10000 Headband of Use Magic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UMD 10000 Third Eye of Use Psionic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UPD 3825 Power Stone of Assimilate [XPH] (Psi 9) +4 unnamed to each ability score, 1 hour 450 Power Stone of Precognition, Offensive [XPH] (Psi 1) +7 insight to attack 1 min/ml (25gp*18ml) 7650 Rune [PGtF] of Nature’s Avatar [CDiv] (Drd 9) +10 morale to attack & damage, 1d8 temp hp/cl, plus haste (50gp*9*17) 600 Scroll of Barkskin [PHB] (Drd 2) +5 enhancement to natural armor (25gp*2*12) 700 Scroll of Polymorph [PHB] (Wiz 4) (25gp*4*7) 700 Scroll of Righteous Aura [Mini] (Pal 4) +4 sacred to CHA (25gp*4*7) ---------------- 742097 TOTAL GP Prep Routine: ~1 hour before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Mage Armor....................20 hours Cast Resist Energy (sonic).........200 minutes Cast Create Magic Tattoo...........1 day (via Anyspell) Cast Magic Vestment................20 hours Cast Magic Weapon, Greater.........20 hours Cast Superior Resistance...........20 hours Cast Ruin Delver’s Fortune.........24 hours (Greater Anyspell, Divine Metamagic(persist)) Cast Greater Visage of the Deity...24 hours (persistent via Divine Metamagic) Cast Righteous Aura................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) Cast Barkskin......................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) ~5 minutes before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Summon Monster I to kill with Assimilate Activate Assimilate................60 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Polymorph (baboon)............7 minutes Cast Nature’s Favor................20 minutes (via Miracle) Activate Nature’s Avatar...........17 minutes (via rune) Dismiss Polymorph (baboon) Cast Conviction....................20 minutes Cast Jump..........................20 minutes (via Anyspell) Cast Greater Heroism...............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Activate Precognition, Offensive...18 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Draconic Polymorph............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Cast Girallon’s Blessing...........200 minutes Cast Fuse Arms.....................200 minutes Cast Celestial Aspect..............20 minutes immediately before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Vigor, Greater................30 rounds Cast Elation.......................40 rounds (extended) Cast Divine Power..................40 rounds (extended) Cast Righteous Might...............40 rounds (extended) Cast Giant Size....................2 minutes (via Miracle, extended via Divine Metamagic) Cast Greater Invisibility..........20 rounds (via Miracle) Cast Sirine’s Grace................20 rounds (via Greater Anyspell) during the challenge Draw spear from quiver and activate sizing ability Contest: 1) 100 AC AC is 117. 2) +100 to hit Full attack is +101/+101/+96/+91/+86. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round Damage per attack is 6d6+101. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Jump is 112. 5) 100 ft movement speed Celestial Aspect gives 100’ fly for entire challenge. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves Fort save is +107. 7) 100 spell-levels castable At least double that. 8) 100 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...) 593 HP plus 76 temp HP. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round. 10 each of Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, Divine, Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic) Immune to all energy via spells and Pit Fiend resistance. DR 9/evil from Righteous Might protects against all but 1 damage from the three weapon types. I think I take the profane and divine. That totals 23 per round, but I regenerate 5 per round from Pit Fiend and Fast Heal 4 per round from Greater Vigor, netting 12 damage taken per round. There goes my temp HP, oh well. I still end the challenge with over 400 HP. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) No problem. Edit 1: Split code tags for readability. Edit 2: Extended a couple of spells to make duration 40 rounds, so there would be no doubt they would last at least 17 rounds.
LordofProcrastination 01-14-06, 02:33 PM	Brilliant work, Thorian. Clear, concise, and overwhelmingly successful. I can't see a single problem with your build. While I doubt that any issues will be found, let us wait the customary few days for any other CO-member criticism to find what I in my enthusiasm may have missed. If anything, your build is a stunning example of the power of simplicity matched with tactical genius regarding resource use in D&D. That, and the fact that Clerics kick arse.
Urnsk 01-14-06, 03:11 PM	Here is my entry for your consideration. I have tried to put together a simple character that meets the given criteria without resorting to infinite loops. Theyla Eseriel Race: Aasimar (Lesser Planetouched [PGtF 191]) Class: Cleric 19 / Marshal 1 (Marshal added last to avoid XP penalty, could have been done with Paladin 2 just as easily though.) Exp: 190,000 Deity: None Align: Neutral Good Gender: Female Size: Medium (5’6” 114 lbs.) Speed: 30 ft. Cash: 760,000 gp (max 190,000 gp per item) Attributes: BUY: (18 WIS, 18 CHA = 32 points) BUFFS: {Assimilate, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Elation, Giant Size (via Miracle), Girallon’s Blessing, Fuse Arms, Owl’s Insight, Righteous Aura, Visage of the Deity} Net P.F. Other STR 102(+51) 45(+17) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 32/GS, 2/morale(elation), 4/gb+fa DEX 39(+14) 27(+8) 0/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm, -2/GS, 2/morale(elation) CON 60(+25) 29(+9) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 12/GS INT 17(+3) 8(-1) 0/inherent, 0/enhancement, 3/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm WIS 46(+22) 18(+4) 5/inherent,10/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial CHA 51(+20) 18(+4) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial, 4/sacred(ra), 5/level Saving Throws: BUFFS: {Marshal aura, Mysticism Domain, Greater Heroism, Ruin Delver’s Fortune, Superior Resistance} Fort +107 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 25/con, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 20/insight=cha(rdf), 20/circ=cha(aura) Ref +50 = 5/clr17, 0/marshal1, 14/dex, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 1/haste Will +64 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 22/wis, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha Armor Class: BUFFS: {Divine Shield feat, Barkskin, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Giant Size, Mage Armor, Magic Vestment(x2), Sirine’s Grace} AC: 117 = 10/base, 14/dex, 6+20/shield+div.shield, 4/armor, 20/deflection=cha, 23+12+5/natural, -8/size, 1/haste HD: 19d8(=89)/cleric-19 + 1d8(=4)/marshal-1 HP: 593 (+76 Temp) = 93/classes + 500/con(25*20); Temp = 76/Nature’s Avatar, 20/Divine Power, 20/Greater Heroism Attacks: BUFFS: {Create Magic Tattoo, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Nature’s Avatar, Nature’s Favor, Precognition, Offensive} BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 = (BAB=20 with Divine Power) Attacks: +101/+101/+96/+91/+86 = 20/BAB, 51/str, -8/size, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 7/insight, 10/luck(nf), 1/haste, 2/invisible, 1/wf, 2/comp Damage: 6d6+101 [20/x2] = 76/str*1.5, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 10/luck(nf) Skills: Craft (drawing) 10 = 1/ranks, 3/int, 4/morale, 2/circumstance Jump [cc] 112 = 1/ranks, 51/str, 4/morale, 10/competence, 30/enhancement, 16/speed-70 Use Magic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Use Psionic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Feats: 01 Char 01 : Extend Spell 03 Char 03 : Persistent Spell 06 Char 06 : Divine Metamagic (persistent) 09 Char 09 : Divine Shield [CWar 106] add CHA to shield for 1 round per 2 char lvl 12 Char 12 : Weapon Focus (spear) 15 Char 15 : Divine Metamagic (extend) 18 Char 18 : whatever Class Abilities: Cleric 1 : Turn Undead, Domains (Mysticism [CDiv], Spell [PGtF]) Marshal 1 : Skill Focus (diplomacy), Minor Aura (demand fortitude) Cleric Spells of Note: Caster Level: 20 = 19/Cleric, 1/orange ioun stone Bonus Spells: based on 28 wisdom Spell Domain [PGtF]: You gain a +2 bonus on Concentration and Spellcraft checks. Mysticism Domain [CDiv]: Apply your Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws. 0: [6] 1: [5(3)+d] Mage Armor (spell domain) Conviction [Mini] +5 morale to saves 2: [5(2)+d] - Elation +2 morale to STR, DEX, +5 speed Resist Energy (sonic) [b]3: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Create Magic Tattoo [PGtF] +2 competence to attacks) Celestial Aspect fly 100’ Fuse Arms [SavS] +4 to STR with Girallon’s Blessing Girallon’s Blessing [SavS] use with Fuse Arms Magic Vestment Refreshment [BoED] removes all non-lethal damage [b]4: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Jump [PHB] +30 enhancement to Jump skill) Divine Power Magic Weapon, Greater 5: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (??) Righteous Might [PHB] DR 9/evil Superior Resistance [SavS] +6 resistance to saves Vigor, Greater [CDiv] fast healing 4 6: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Draconic Polymorph [Draco]) - 7: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Sirine’s Grace [web] (Brd 4) AC gets +CHA deflection bonus) - 8: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Ruin Delver’s Fortune [web] (Brd 4) +CHA to a save as insight) - 9: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Heroism, Greater [PHB] (Brd 5) +4 morale to attacks, saves, skills) Miracle (Nature’s Favor [CDiv] (Drd 3) +10 luck to attack & damage) Miracle (Greater Invisibility [PHB] (Wiz 4) +2 attack) Miracle (Giant Size [CArc], Wu Jen 7) +32 STR, -2 DEX, +12 CON, +12 Natural Armor, -8 AC, -8 attack Visage of the Deity [CDiv] 4 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 INT, +4 WIS, +4 CHA, type=outsider Equipment: Price Name 137500 Manual of Bodily Health +5 137500 Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 137500 Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 137500 Tome of Understanding +5 8302 Spear +1, Sizing [CAdv] 0 Armor: none 15 Shield: buckler 55 Artisan’s Tools +2 circumstance to craft (drawing) 36000 Amulet of Health +6 36000 Gloves of Dexterity +6 36000 Cloak of Charisma +6 10000 Ring of Jumping, Improved +10 competence to Jump 1800 Quiver of Ehlonna (for staffs, rods, etc.) 30000 Ioun Stone, Orange Prism (+1 cl) why not? 10000 Headband of Use Magic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UMD 10000 Third Eye of Use Psionic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UPD 3825 Power Stone of Assimilate [XPH] (Psi 9) +4 unnamed to each ability score, 1 hour 450 Power Stone of Precognition, Offensive [XPH] (Psi 1) +7 insight to attack 1 min/ml (25gp*18ml) 7650 Rune [PGtF] of Nature’s Avatar [CDiv] (Drd 9) +10 morale to attack & damage, 1d8 temp hp/cl, plus haste (50gp*9*17) 600 Scroll of Barkskin [PHB] (Drd 2) +5 enhancement to natural armor (25gp*2*12) 700 Scroll of Polymorph [PHB] (Wiz 4) (25gp*4*7) 700 Scroll of Righteous Aura [Mini] (Pal 4) +4 sacred to CHA (25gp*4*7) ---------------- 742097 TOTAL GP Prep Routine: ~1 hour before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Mage Armor....................20 hours Cast Resist Energy (sonic).........200 minutes Cast Create Magic Tattoo...........1 day (via Anyspell) Cast Magic Vestment................20 hours Cast Magic Weapon, Greater.........20 hours Cast Superior Resistance...........20 hours Cast Ruin Delver’s Fortune.........24 hours (Greater Anyspell, Divine Metamagic(persist)) Cast Greater Visage of the Deity...24 hours (persistent via Divine Metamagic) Cast Righteous Aura................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) Cast Barkskin......................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) ~5 minutes before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Summon Monster I to kill with Assimilate Activate Assimilate................60 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Polymorph (baboon)............7 minutes Cast Nature’s Favor................20 minutes (via Miracle) Activate Nature’s Avatar...........17 minutes (via rune) Dismiss Polymorph (baboon) Cast Conviction....................20 minutes Cast Jump..........................20 minutes (via Anyspell) Cast Greater Heroism...............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Activate Precognition, Offensive...18 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Draconic Polymorph............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Cast Girallon’s Blessing...........200 minutes Cast Fuse Arms.....................200 minutes Cast Celestial Aspect..............20 minutes immediately before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Vigor, Greater................30 rounds Cast Elation.......................20 rounds Cast Divine Power..................20 rounds Cast Righteous Might...............20 rounds Cast Giant Size....................2 minutes (via Miracle, extended via Divine Metamagic) Cast Greater Invisibility..........20 rounds (via Miracle) Cast Sirine’s Grace................20 rounds (via Greater Anyspell) during the challenge Draw spear from quiver and activate sizing ability Contest: 1) 100 AC AC is 117. 2) +100 to hit Full attack is +101/+101/+96/+91/+86. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round Damage per attack is 6d6+101. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Jump is 112. 5) 100 ft movement speed Celestial Aspect gives 100’ fly for entire challenge. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves Fort save is +107. 7) 100 spell-levels castable At least double that. 8) 100 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...) 593 HP plus 76 temp HP. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round. 10 each of Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, Divine, Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic) Immune to all energy via spells and Pit Fiend resistance. DR 9/evil from Righteous Might protects against all but 1 damage from the three weapon types. I think I take the profane and divine. That totals 23 per round, but I regenerate 5 per round from Pit Fiend and Fast Heal 4 per round from Greater Vigor, netting 12 damage taken per round. There goes my temp HP, oh well. I still end the challenge with over 400 HP. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) No problem. Edit 1: Split code tags for readability. A few questions: When did you become an outsider again? The lesser version in Faerun means you lose that subtype, meaning no Draconic Polymorph into an outsider unless you gained it back in some way. I'm also not sure you keep Inherant bonuses to physical stats when you polymorph. Is there an official ruling on that? Also not that Draconic Polymorph boosts your Con by another +2; I don't think that's reflected in your stats. The only real issue I see is the Polymorph, but that is solved by just using the Web version of the Aasmiar to remain an outsider... you lose 2 Wisdom, but that doesn't hurt any of your "must haves." Losing the strength lowers your to hit by 3, though, to 98, but quaffing a Firewine or 3 fixes that problem. I think those are all of my questions for now... no problems I see as unsolvable, but for the sake of accuracy and all that.
thorian 01-14-06, 11:59 PM	A few questions: When did you become an outsider again? The lesser version in Faerun means you lose that subtype, meaning no Draconic Polymorph into an outsider unless you gained it back in some way. I'm also not sure you keep Inherant bonuses to physical stats when you polymorph. Is there an official ruling on that? Also not that Draconic Polymorph boosts your Con by another +2; I don't think that's reflected in your stats. The only real issue I see is the Polymorph, but that is solved by just using the Web version of the Aasmiar to remain an outsider... you lose 2 Wisdom, but that doesn't hurt any of your "must haves." Losing the strength lowers your to hit by 3, though, to 98, but quaffing a Firewine or 3 fixes that problem. I think those are all of my questions for now... no problems I see as unsolvable, but for the sake of accuracy and all that. Greater Visage of the Deity changes your type to Outsider. Inherent bonuses remain just like bonuses of other types like enhancement, unnamed, insight, etc. The +8 STR and +2 CON are included in the base stats for the Draconic Polymorphed Pit Fiend (STR=45, DEX=27, CON=29). I probably should have noted them separately to prevent confusion. Sorry about that.
thorian 01-15-06, 12:13 AM	Brilliant work, Thorian. Clear, concise, and overwhelmingly successful. I can't see a single problem with your build. While I doubt that any issues will be found, let us wait the customary few days for any other CO-member criticism to find what I in my enthusiasm may have missed. If anything, your build is a stunning example of the power of simplicity matched with tactical genius regarding resource use in D&D. That, and the fact that Clerics kick arse. Thanks for the compliments LoP. I wanted to show that challenges like this can be overcome by simple builds, and that it not necessary to have a pun-pun, cheater of mystra, hulking hurler, etc.. I could have gone human / paladin 2 / cleric 18 to make the build even more “straightforward” but I was just too tired of looking at the build at that point (three days for about four hours each day). It originally started as a wisdom build I had made a couple years ago for an epic arena game – a human / monk / cleric / sacred fist / shiba protector / saint. The more simplified I tried to make it, the more of a charisma based build it became.
Esponer 01-15-06, 12:28 AM	It originally started as a wisdom build I had made a couple years ago for an epic arena game – a human / monk / cleric / sacred fist / shiba protector / saint. The more simplified I tried to make it, the more of a charisma based build it became. Damn, man. I was surprised enough to see your build, which drew exclusively (with the exception of just one spell) on material I'd just started using on similar builds, coincidentally. And now I hear that you started off with a monk/cleric/sacred fist/shiba protector/saint, and I've just recently made very similar builds... I never thought that it could make the 100^10 challenge though. Good work. What does Sirine's Grace do? (The one spell I haven't had in any of my builds.)
thorian 01-15-06, 02:33 AM	Damn, man. I was surprised enough to see your build, which drew exclusively (with the exception of just one spell) on material I'd just started using on similar builds, coincidentally. And now I hear that you started off with a monk/cleric/sacred fist/shiba protector/saint, and I've just recently made very similar builds... I never thought that it could make the 100^10 challenge though. Good work. What does Sirine's Grace do? (The one spell I haven't had in any of my builds.) Thanks. Here is the link to Sirine's Grace: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040131a
Fwib 01-15-06, 08:03 AM	Here is my entry for your consideration. I have tried to put together a simple character that meets the given criteria without resorting to infinite loops. Theyla Eseriel Race: Aasimar (Lesser Planetouched [PGtF 191]) Class: Cleric 19 / Marshal 1 (Marshal added last to avoid XP penalty, could have been done with Paladin 2 just as easily though.) Exp: 190,000 Deity: None Align: Neutral Good Gender: Female Size: Medium (5’6” 114 lbs.) Speed: 30 ft. Cash: 760,000 gp (max 190,000 gp per item) Attributes: BUY: (18 WIS, 18 CHA = 32 points) BUFFS: {Assimilate, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Elation, Giant Size (via Miracle), Girallon’s Blessing, Fuse Arms, Owl’s Insight, Righteous Aura, Visage of the Deity} Net P.F. Other STR 102(+51) 45(+17) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 32/GS, 2/morale(elation), 4/gb+fa DEX 39(+14) 27(+8) 0/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm, -2/GS, 2/morale(elation) CON 60(+25) 29(+9) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, -/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 12/GS INT 17(+3) 8(-1) 0/inherent, 0/enhancement, 3/age, 2/VotD, 4/asm WIS 46(+22) 18(+4) 5/inherent,10/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial CHA 51(+20) 18(+4) 5/inherent, 6/enhancement, 3/age, 4/VotD, 4/asm, 2/racial, 4/sacred(ra), 5/level Saving Throws: BUFFS: {Marshal aura, Mysticism Domain, Greater Heroism, Ruin Delver’s Fortune, Superior Resistance} Fort +107 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 25/con, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 20/insight=cha(rdf), 20/circ=cha(aura) Ref +50 = 5/clr17, 0/marshal1, 14/dex, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha, 1/haste Will +64 = 10/clr17, 2/marshal1, 22/wis, 6/resistance, 4/morale, 20/luck=cha Armor Class: BUFFS: {Divine Shield feat, Barkskin, Draconic Polymorph (Pit Fiend), Giant Size, Mage Armor, Magic Vestment(x2), Sirine’s Grace} AC: 117 = 10/base, 14/dex, 6+20/shield+div.shield, 4/armor, 20/deflection=cha, 23+12+5/natural, -8/size, 1/haste HD: 19d8(=89)/cleric-19 + 1d8(=4)/marshal-1 HP: 593 (+76 Temp) = 93/classes + 500/con(25*20); Temp = 76/Nature’s Avatar, 20/Divine Power, 20/Greater Heroism Attacks: BUFFS: {Create Magic Tattoo, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Nature’s Avatar, Nature’s Favor, Precognition, Offensive} BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 = (BAB=20 with Divine Power) Attacks: +101/+101/+96/+91/+86 = 20/BAB, 51/str, -8/size, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 7/insight, 10/luck(nf), 1/haste, 2/invisible, 1/wf, 2/comp Damage: 6d6+101 [20/x2] = 76/str*1.5, 5/enhancement, 10/morale(na), 10/luck(nf) Skills: Craft (drawing) 10 = 1/ranks, 3/int, 4/morale, 2/circumstance Jump [cc] 112 = 1/ranks, 51/str, 4/morale, 10/competence, 30/enhancement, 16/speed-70 Use Magic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Use Psionic Device [cc] 39 = 5/ranks, 20/cha, 4/morale, 10/competence Feats: 01 Char 01 : Extend Spell 03 Char 03 : Persistent Spell 06 Char 06 : Divine Metamagic (persistent) 09 Char 09 : Divine Shield [CWar 106] add CHA to shield for 1 round per 2 char lvl 12 Char 12 : Weapon Focus (spear) 15 Char 15 : Divine Metamagic (extend) 18 Char 18 : whatever Class Abilities: Cleric 1 : Turn Undead, Domains (Mysticism [CDiv], Spell [PGtF]) Marshal 1 : Skill Focus (diplomacy), Minor Aura (demand fortitude) Cleric Spells of Note: Caster Level: 20 = 19/Cleric, 1/orange ioun stone Bonus Spells: based on 28 wisdom Spell Domain [PGtF]: You gain a +2 bonus on Concentration and Spellcraft checks. Mysticism Domain [CDiv]: Apply your Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws. 0: [6] 1: [5(3)+d] Mage Armor (spell domain) Conviction [Mini] +5 morale to saves 2: [5(2)+d] - Elation +2 morale to STR, DEX, +5 speed Resist Energy (sonic) [b]3: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Create Magic Tattoo [PGtF] +2 competence to attacks) Celestial Aspect fly 100’ Fuse Arms [SavS] +4 to STR with Girallon’s Blessing Girallon’s Blessing [SavS] use with Fuse Arms Magic Vestment Refreshment [BoED] removes all non-lethal damage [b]4: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (Jump [PHB] +30 enhancement to Jump skill) Divine Power Magic Weapon, Greater 5: [5(2)+d] Anyspell (??) Righteous Might [PHB] DR 9/evil Superior Resistance [SavS] +6 resistance to saves Vigor, Greater [CDiv] fast healing 4 6: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Draconic Polymorph [Draco]) - 7: [4(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Sirine’s Grace [web] (Brd 4) AC gets +CHA deflection bonus) - 8: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Ruin Delver’s Fortune [web] (Brd 4) +CHA to a save as insight) - 9: [3(1)+d] Anyspell, Greater (Heroism, Greater [PHB] (Brd 5) +4 morale to attacks, saves, skills) Miracle (Nature’s Favor [CDiv] (Drd 3) +10 luck to attack & damage) Miracle (Greater Invisibility [PHB] (Wiz 4) +2 attack) Miracle (Giant Size [CArc], Wu Jen 7) +32 STR, -2 DEX, +12 CON, +12 Natural Armor, -8 AC, -8 attack Visage of the Deity [CDiv] 4 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 INT, +4 WIS, +4 CHA, type=outsider Equipment: Price Name 137500 Manual of Bodily Health +5 137500 Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 137500 Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 137500 Tome of Understanding +5 8302 Spear +1, Sizing [CAdv] 0 Armor: none 15 Shield: buckler 55 Artisan’s Tools +2 circumstance to craft (drawing) 36000 Amulet of Health +6 36000 Gloves of Dexterity +6 36000 Cloak of Charisma +6 10000 Ring of Jumping, Improved +10 competence to Jump 1800 Quiver of Ehlonna (for staffs, rods, etc.) 30000 Ioun Stone, Orange Prism (+1 cl) why not? 10000 Headband of Use Magic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UMD 10000 Third Eye of Use Psionic Device [XPH] +10 competence to UPD 3825 Power Stone of Assimilate [XPH] (Psi 9) +4 unnamed to each ability score, 1 hour 450 Power Stone of Precognition, Offensive [XPH] (Psi 1) +7 insight to attack 1 min/ml (25gp*18ml) 7650 Rune [PGtF] of Nature’s Avatar [CDiv] (Drd 9) +10 morale to attack & damage, 1d8 temp hp/cl, plus haste (50gp*9*17) 600 Scroll of Barkskin [PHB] (Drd 2) +5 enhancement to natural armor (25gp*2*12) 700 Scroll of Polymorph [PHB] (Wiz 4) (25gp*4*7) 700 Scroll of Righteous Aura [Mini] (Pal 4) +4 sacred to CHA (25gp*4*7) ---------------- 742097 TOTAL GP Prep Routine: ~1 hour before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Mage Armor....................20 hours Cast Resist Energy (sonic).........200 minutes Cast Create Magic Tattoo...........1 day (via Anyspell) Cast Magic Vestment................20 hours Cast Magic Weapon, Greater.........20 hours Cast Superior Resistance...........20 hours Cast Ruin Delver’s Fortune.........24 hours (Greater Anyspell, Divine Metamagic(persist)) Cast Greater Visage of the Deity...24 hours (persistent via Divine Metamagic) Cast Righteous Aura................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) Cast Barkskin......................200 minutes (UMD on scroll) ~5 minutes before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Summon Monster I to kill with Assimilate Activate Assimilate................60 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Polymorph (baboon)............7 minutes Cast Nature’s Favor................20 minutes (via Miracle) Activate Nature’s Avatar...........17 minutes (via rune) Dismiss Polymorph (baboon) Cast Conviction....................20 minutes Cast Jump..........................20 minutes (via Anyspell) Cast Greater Heroism...............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Activate Precognition, Offensive...18 minutes (UPD on power stone) Cast Draconic Polymorph............20 minutes (via Greater Anyspell) Cast Girallon’s Blessing...........200 minutes Cast Fuse Arms.....................200 minutes Cast Celestial Aspect..............20 minutes immediately before the challenge Spell / Effect Duration Cast Vigor, Greater................30 rounds Cast Elation.......................20 rounds Cast Divine Power..................20 rounds Cast Righteous Might...............20 rounds Cast Giant Size....................2 minutes (via Miracle, extended via Divine Metamagic) Cast Greater Invisibility..........20 rounds (via Miracle) Cast Sirine’s Grace................20 rounds (via Greater Anyspell) during the challenge Draw spear from quiver and activate sizing ability Contest: 1) 100 AC AC is 117. 2) +100 to hit Full attack is +101/+101/+96/+91/+86. 3) Deals 100 damage average per round Damage per attack is 6d6+101. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Jump is 112. 5) 100 ft movement speed Celestial Aspect gives 100’ fly for entire challenge. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves Fort save is +107. 7) 100 spell-levels castable At least double that. 8) 100 hit points (don't laugh until you read the next one...) 593 HP plus 76 temp HP. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round. 10 each of Fire, Cold, Sonic, Electricity, Acid, Profane, Divine, Piercing (silver and magic), Bludgeoning (cold iron and magic), and Slashing (adamantine and magic) Immune to all energy via spells and Pit Fiend resistance. DR 9/evil from Righteous Might protects against all but 1 damage from the three weapon types. I think I take the profane and divine. That totals 23 per round, but I regenerate 5 per round from Pit Fiend and Fast Heal 4 per round from Greater Vigor, netting 12 damage taken per round. There goes my temp HP, oh well. I still end the challenge with over 400 HP. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) No problem. Edit 1: Split code tags for readability.OK, re-quoting the two relevant parts I noticed:Cast Elation.......................20 rounds Cast Divine Power..................20 rounds Cast Righteous Might...............20 rounds Cast Giant Size....................2 minutes (via Miracle, extended via Divine Metamagic) Cast Greater Invisibility..........20 rounds (via Miracle) Cast Sirine’s Grace................20 rounds (via Greater Anyspell)10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds (that's effectively 17 rounds) No problem.you have 6 20-round spells there - do you specify how you get tham all cast within 3 rounds so as to retain them for 17 more? [edit]I presume that you fix this, if it is a problem, just by having a little caster-level-boost thrown in (bead of karma?)
thorian 01-16-06, 12:11 PM	I could either buy a bead of Karma, or I have plenty of extra spell slots in which to place extended versions of said spells, and the Giant Size could be cast last. I also have enough turning attempts to apply extend to them on the fly. I meant to do one of these options, but forgot to. :embarrass
Urnsk 01-16-06, 12:40 PM	Inherent bonuses remain just like bonuses of other types like enhancement, unnamed, insight, etc. Can you verify this? Inherant Bonuses to physical stats become part of your physical form; I've seen no evidence that they remain, and plenty that they go away.
ShadowCrown 01-24-06, 01:12 AM	Can you verify this? Inherant Bonuses to physical stats become part of your physical form; I've seen no evidence that they remain, and plenty that they go away. Can I get a cite on this? Anything like this would seem to be speculation based on a specific interpretation of inherent bonuses; seems just as likely that inherent bonuses bind to the identity of the creature in a metaphysical sense instead, that moves with the creature throughout any shapeshifting it does. Do doppelgangers lose bonuses from books of stats when they shift? Even that is speculation, however; where is the citation that says that inherent bonuses are to be treated differently from other types of bonii?
DisposableHero_ 01-24-06, 02:35 AM	all of the rules unique to the inherent bonus text is contained within the entry for the spell Wish in the SRD, and are as follows:Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies. Note this only spells out three properties for inherent bonuses: Inherent Bonuses cannot be dispelled Inherent bonuses may not exceed +5 for any stat Inherent bonuses unlike other instantaneous spell effects do not stack Digging further and looking up the physical stat manuals in the SRD reveals the following:Manual of Bodily Health: This thick tome contains tips on health and fitness, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Constitution score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb. There is no more rules text on the subject, so we are left with no clear ruling on how this works. There is no citation that says inherent bonuses are treated differently than any other form of bonus, but there is equally no citation that states that any type of bonus is overwritten by the shapechanging magic, though most of us use common sense regard bonuses that we associate with the character's original physical form such as racial bonuses. The assumption that inherent bonuses to a creature's physical stats would transfer to their new form carries with it the assumption that any permanent bonus to a character's physical ability scores not generated continuously by an item would carry over. This takes us to racial bonuses, would you assume that an elf shapechanging into a pit field would have 2 extra points of dexterity and 2 fewer points of constitution?
psionicbattousai 01-24-06, 02:41 AM	nm
ShadowCrown 01-24-06, 01:52 PM	There is no more rules text on the subject, so we are left with no clear ruling on how this works. There is no citation that says inherent bonuses are treated differently than any other form of bonus, but there is equally no citation that states that any type of bonus is overwritten by the shapechanging magic, though most of us use common sense regard bonuses that we associate with the character's original physical form such as racial bonuses. The assumption that inherent bonuses to a creature's physical stats would transfer to their new form carries with it the assumption that any permanent bonus to a character's physical ability scores not generated continuously by an item would carry over. This takes us to racial bonuses, would you assume that an elf shapechanging into a pit field would have 2 extra points of dexterity and 2 fewer points of constitution? Oh, come on. The SRD explicitly says the following in its entry under elves in the monster section: Elf Traits (Ex): Elves possess the following racial traits. — +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. —Medium size. —An elf ’s base land speed is 30 feet. —Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) Any elf shapechanging into a pit fiend is no longer an elf, and therefore this section no longer applies to it. This is pretty obvious from the fact that such an elf would not move at 30 feet per round, etc, etc. I do not have to make the assumption you ascribe to me in order to reach my conclusion; from a flavor standpoint, I believe that wishes and other similarly powerful magic don't just affect the corporeal being, but instead change the essence or soul of the creature involved. From a stats standpoint, my assumption is that any bonus that is not derived from a characteristic of the being that is lost in the shapeshifting stays. Thus, bonii deriving from things like race, which change as the shape changes, also change, whereas inherent bonii, which derive from the fact that the being in question read a magical book or had a spell cast on it, stay the same. That being still exists metaphysically (D&D has souls, the soul is the same), just in a different body.
Richmud 01-24-06, 05:56 PM	I almost hate to make this more complicated but I figure it might actually help solve the question. When you use shapeshift would you retain the +1 bonus you get to a stat every 4 levels?
ShadowCrown 01-24-06, 06:26 PM	Not a bonus. The level based stat increase changes the stat fundamentally such that it acts as though you'd rolled the higher stat originally; if it's a physical stat, you won't keep it through a shapechange.
Lusden Veharo 01-24-06, 07:15 PM	Use UMD on scrolls of Wish after Polymorphing to gain the Inherent bonus. Not too hard.
Lusden Veharo 02-07-06, 01:42 PM	I edited The Silly Literalist, replacing Half-Fey with Assimilate, thus allowing me to remove the Wishes and bringing the entire character down to ECL 19. w00t. Also, I'm working on another build that may be able to blow out the requirements without requiring Charisma to everything repeatedly; instead it'll ultra-pump Dexterity. I'm hoping to avoid the use of much/any magic beyond the required spell levels, and waste them like The Silly Literalist did.
LordofProcrastination 02-07-06, 02:05 PM	Congrats on finally thoroughly literalizing your Silly Literalist, Lusden Veharo!
Need_A_Life 04-08-06, 10:27 AM	I edited The Silly Literalist, replacing Half-Fey with Assimilate, thus allowing me to remove the Wishes and bringing the entire character down to ECL 19. w00t. Also, I'm working on another build that may be able to blow out the requirements without requiring Charisma to everything repeatedly; instead it'll ultra-pump Dexterity. I'm hoping to avoid the use of much/any magic beyond the required spell levels, and waste them like The Silly Literalist did. Well... only one problem now, you need a new name, it is no longer a Silly Literalist Why? This is a challenge intended for ECL 20 entries Of course, adding a level of commoner would do the trick +0 BAB, +0 saves, spend skill points differently and it's finished. EDIT: Throw in an encounter with a Lava Wight and two Inflict Minor Wounds and your character has 100HP exactly. Just FYI.
marrithl2 07-30-06, 07:19 PM	A few questions: 1) Can the druid's awaken things be done with polymorph instead of wild shape? 2) Where can i find the class Archdruid 3) Where can I find the items like "+30 UMD (90k)"
Need_A_Life 09-26-06, 12:14 PM	1) Can the druid's awaken things be done with polymorph instead of wild shape? Yes. 2) Where can i find the class Archdruid I don't see it anywhere, where'd you spot it? 3) Where can I find the items like "+30 UMD (90k)" DMG. At least, partially. When crafting a magical item to give +30 on a skill the price is (30*30)*100 IIRC.
PhaedrusXY 02-10-07, 07:58 PM	:bump: So this doesn't get pruned. :gel:
Lusden Veharo 02-14-07, 01:10 AM	Formatting In Progress Sections Completed: Self-Notes In Place Q: What's more pure than a Cleric 19/Marshall 1? A: This. "Purity" (Longstrider) Shifter Wilder 20 There is no use of shape altering magic and no support from outside sources (though his cohort does possess him), other than somebody to make all the magic items. Purity does it all himself, as himself. Starting stats are 10/18/10/10/8/16 before racial mods; after, they are 10/20/10/8/8/14. Final Stats: Strength: 10 (base) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) -10 size (Minute Form) =4 20 base +26 unnamed (Psychofeedback at ML 26, Wild Surge for +6) +10 enhancement (Divine Agility) +9 insight (Adrenaline Rush at ML 22, Overchannel taking 2d6) +8 size (Extended Minute Form) +5 levels +5 inherent +4 morale (Aura of Vitality)* +4 unnamed (Nature’s Balance)* +4 unnamed (Spider’s Curse)* +4 unnamed (Assimilate) +4 profane (Fiend of Posession 5)* +4 unnamed (Greater Visage of the Diety) +3 unnamed (Fiend of Corruption 1)* +2 unnamed (Longstrider Shifter) +2 sacred (Grace)* +2 unnamed (Sithilar Muscles)* = 116 for a +53 modifier Constitution: 10 (base) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) -2 size (Minute Form) =12 Intelligence: 8 (base) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) =12 Wisdom: 8 (base) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) =12 Charisma: 14 (base) +4 unnamed (Assimilate) =18 Preparations: Burn 26 points of stats to gain +26 Dexterity. (burn not included above yet) Feats: 1 Lightning Reflexes 3 Overchannel 6 Leadership 9 Expanded Knowledge: Adrenaline Rush 12 Expanded Knowledge: Psychofeedback 15 18 Skills: The only things that matter are Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device, and Balance. All are maxed out; with a very high charisma, UMD/UPD will always work. Powers known include Crystal Shard, Defensive Precognition, Mind Thrust, Energy Adaption, Assimilate. 1) 100 AC 10 Base +53 Dex +9 Insight (Defensive Precognition) +8 Size =80 2) +100 to hit Purity meets this requirement with a ranged touch attack, though he doesn't actually use it. +53 Dex +15 BAB +8 Size +4 Morale (Greater Heroism) = +80 3) Deals 100 damage average per round Mind Thrust at ML 19 averages 104 points of damage, and Purity can manifest this every round. He has the +100 to hit, he just doesn't use it. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check Balance: +53 Dex +23 Ranks +4 Morale (Greater Heroism) +2 Racial = +82 Balance 5) 100 ft movement speed As a Shifter, Purity has a base speed of 30 ft; while Shifting, this improves to 40 ft. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves +53 dex +9 insight (Defensive Precognition) +6 base +6 resistance (Superior Resistance)* +5 sacred (Shield of Warding)* +5 luck (Nightstalker’s Transformation)* +4 morale (Crown of Glory/Greater Heroism) */- +2 profane (Hand of Divinity)* +2 unnammed (Lightning Reflexes) +1 dodge (Haste)* = +93 7) 100 spell-levels castable A 20th level Wilder has 343 pp. Even casting everything as 9th level spells, he could throw 180 spell levels. 8) 100 hit points 20d4 = 51 base hp, plus 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds Power Up: Half an hour before the challenge, pull out a squirrel or some other small 1 hp critter and Assimilate it. Start the buffing routine with a ML 8 Energy Adaption. During the challenge: Round 1: Free action, Shift. Standard action, manifest Mind Thrust at ML 19. Move action, move. Round 2: Standard action, manifest Mind Thrust at ML 19. Move action, move. Rounds 3-17: Standard action, manifest Mind Thrust at ML 19. Scrolls: Heroism, Greater; CL 11; 1650 gp Divine Agility; CL 19; 2,375 gp* [Potential CL change] Greater Visage of the Diety; CL 18; 4,050 gp* [Potential CL change] Extended Minute Form; CL 19; 4,275 gp [Duration 2 minutes] Total cost of scrolls: gp Standard Magic Items: Custom Magic Items: (holdover from Silly Literalist that may see use) Skullcap of Magical Intuition This skullcap brings out latent talents when dealing with magical and psionic items. +10 Competance Bonus to Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device; 20,000 gp Mundane Items: Total Gold Spent: gp PP Expended: Only things currently listed in the buffing routine are mentioned here, since this is still under construction 17 PP, Assimilate 8 PP, Energy Adaption
balor64 06-11-07, 06:00 PM	:bump:
1337Ninja 06-13-07, 08:12 AM	Bobs (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-699296.html) Improve him to level 19, 1 XP off level 20. I can't use the thought bottle, but that doesn't really impact on the character that much. It slows down the extra Bobs creation because each Bobs can only double 89 times (leaving XP for 17 Fusions) before being unable to cast Fission due to not having enough XP, but hey. They're still all level 19. And yes, that does mean that I can't infinitely double, but the number of Bobs is still in the millions with ease. Alrighty. 1) 100 AC Before fusing, a wizard cohort uses a scroll of shapechange to become a gold wyrm, then UMDs a scroll of Minute Form to become Fine (+37 natural armour). He has +25 from Dexterity (see 6) (total AC 72 so far). Bobs uses bracers of armour +8, a ring of protection +5, an amulet of natural armour +5 (AC 90) and the monk's AC bonuses with a Wisdom score of 26 (18 base, +4 levels, +4 tome) for a total AC of 101. 2) +100 to hit +25 from Dexterity (see 6) with an energy ray, +17 base attack bonus, true strike for +20, 25 damage in the crusader's delayed damage pool from the damage caused every round for +5, paladin's smite evil for +24 (see 6), and crusader's smite for another +24. Total of +115. 3) 100 average damage A few (hundred) energy rays. Done. 4) +100 bonus to a selected skill check 50 cohorts who are exactly the same as the one described in 8) but also with 9 ranks in Jump do not fuse with Bobs. They instead use Aid Another to give Bobs +100 on Jump, and are healed by Bobs' various healing spells from cleric cohorts every round. 5) 100 ft movement speed 30ft. base, +50ft. from a level 17 monk, +10ft. from a barbarian, +30ft. from expeditious retreat. Total of 120ft. Moving does not interfere with Bobs' other activities. 6) +100 Bonus on either Fortitude, Reflex or Will Saves Paladin's Divine Grace and Blackguard's Dark Blessing combined gives me Charisma to saves twice. One cohort is a level 2 who took the Necropolitan template, regained his level, then, after a long time, acquired the Evolved Undead template 15 times. He started with 18 Charisma and was given a cloak of charisma +6 and a tome of leadership and influence +4 by Bobs, thanks to the huge wealth they have. He was then resurrected, allowing him to be fusioned. This means Bobs has Charisma 58, for a +48 bonus in total. A halfling fused in gives +1 on saving throws. Bobs has +10 base on all saving throws. They have Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude. They have a cloak of resistance +5. One Bobs manifests an ML 19 Psionic Moment of Prescience every round, then burns it on a saving throw, for an extra +19. So far, they have +86 on all saves. Bobs has a wizard cohort using a scroll of shapechange to become an elder air elemental, then UMDs a scroll of minute form for +16 Dexterity, while wearing gloves of dexterity +6 and having read a +5 dexterity tome before fusing. This gives him Dexterity 60, for a last +25 on Reflex saves. This gives a +111 bonus. 7) 100 spell-levels castable With this many casters, it's easily done. 8) 100 hit points With the stupidly high number of cohorts fused in, Bobs has HP in the somethingfancysounding-illions. 9) Survive 100 points of possible damage each round Easily done. I can take 100 damage every round and laugh it off. 10) Must sustain all of these stats for 100 seconds All spells cast by Bobs are repeated every round, and the shapechange scroll is caster level 20 thanks to Bobs' massive wealth. I'm aware that the Bobs trick might not work, but I have yet to see substantial evidence against it.
1337Ninja 08-30-07, 06:16 AM	:bump:
ZexionAlmasy 01-30-08, 10:26 AM	This thing still going on?
PhaedrusXY 01-30-08, 12:27 PM	This thing still going on?No.